[DNG] How stable is the devuan migration?

[Nuno Magalhães]

Greetings,

I have a VPS running whezzy (7.8) which was a little behind updates
before systemd hit the fan. It's used as a LAMP stack and i'm
wondering how easy would it be to upgrade it to devuan.

I had a debian vm laying around and remember i did just that and IIRC
it wasn't a big deal. Does anyone have fresh/recent input/tips?

TIA,
Nuno
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Re: [DNG] Beware

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 20:46:00 +, Rainer wrote in message 
<87d1sxguwn@doppelsaurus.mobileactivedefense.com>:

> k...@aspodata.se writes:
> > Arnt Gulbrandsen:
> >> By now, the concept of unprivileged local users is a little
> >> obsolete anyway.
> >
> > Yes, unless you let your kids or some guests use your computer.
> 
> How many of your "kids and guests" even know what a kernel is, let
> alone how to exploit a bug in one?

..systemd? ;oD

> >> Today, hosts generally serve only one unix user, there 
> >> generally is only one local user of one host, and that local user
> >> is the user that owns everything valuable. So is the a real point
> >> to local-user-to-root exploits? I suppose there is, but it is much
> >> smaller than it was ten or twenty years ago.
> >
> > The problem is not the local user == the owner, instead it is an 
> > unknown breaking in as a local user and then gaining root powers.
> 
> That's not going to be terribly difficult on a system I use as
> accounts I'm using usually can get root via sudo without entering a
> password. 

..why did Debian kill ssh into localhost?  
Is su or sudo safer than ssh nowadays?

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] lilo development has ended

[richard lucassen]

On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 14:44:59 -
"dev1fanboy"  wrote:

> https://lilo.alioth.debian.org/
> 
> The author has updated their site to say:
> 
> "NOTE: I will finish development of LILO at December 2015 because of
> some limitations (e.g. with BTFS, GPT, RAID). If someone want to
> develop this nice software further, please let me know ..."
> 
> So I assume lilo has stopped development altogether from the last
> release, and we can look forward to only having the more complex
> grub2. 

Unless you use a small ext2 boot partition for your kernels. And for
raid: if you create an md device for /boot/ with --metadata=0.90 then
lilo will still work.

R.

-- 
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http://contact.xaq.nl/
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Re: [DNG] Beware

[karl]

Arnt Karlsen:
> On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 20:46:00 +, Rainer wrote in message 
> <87d1sxguwn@doppelsaurus.mobileactivedefense.com>:
> 
> > k...@aspodata.se writes:
> > > Arnt Gulbrandsen:
> > >> By now, the concept of unprivileged local users is a little
> > >> obsolete anyway.
> > >
> > > Yes, unless you let your kids or some guests use your computer.
> > 
> > How many of your "kids and guests" even know what a kernel is, let
> > alone how to exploit a bug in one?
> 
> ..systemd? ;oD

Ahh, the new kid on the block...

...
> ..why did Debian kill ssh into localhost?  
> Is su or sudo safer than ssh nowadays?

telnet or ssh localhost | tee log_file is useful for demonstrations.

Test this
 open two or more xterms (or similar), same size

 term 1: ssh localhost | tail trace

 term 2 and up: tail -f trace

and start working in term 1 (nothing graphical), eg emacs -nw 

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

---
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Re: [DNG] Beware

[Rainer Weikusat]

Rainer Weikusat  writes:
> shraptor  writes:
>> On 2016-01-19 19:07, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
>>> In this particular case, an unprivileged local user could gain root
>>> access by running a program which does billions of syscalls as fast as
>>> it can for ca 30 minutes (according the 'real' article).
>>
>> I tested the program in the 'real' article but it didn't work?
>>
>> But I guess you have to adjust addresses of commit_creds and
>> prepare_kernel_cred functions for my kernel version?
>> The article says they are static and can be determined per Linux
>> kernel version.
>>
>> How to determine those?
>
> You can find them in the System.map file for your kernel, eg,
>
> [rw@doppelsaurus]~#grep prepare_kernel_cred  /boot/System.map-4.4.0-net 

I meant to write this in a different context and then forgot about
it. The name has nothing to do with grab (or any other English word) but
before there was grep, the text editor could be used to accomlish the
same, eg,

[rw@doppelsaurus]~#ed /boot/System.map-4.4.0-net 
2095848
g/prepare_kernel_cred/p
810555f0 T prepare_kernel_cred
8179d680 R __ksymtab_prepare_kernel_cred
817acd40 r __kstrtab_prepare_kernel_cred
q

The first part of the ed command is an address whose meaning is 'for all
lines match re' (a regexp), the absract definition is

g/re/

'p' means 'print the addressed lines', hence,

g/re/p
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Re: [DNG] Beware

[Rainer Weikusat]

k...@aspodata.se writes:
> Arnt Gulbrandsen:
>> By now, the concept of unprivileged local users is a little obsolete 
>> anyway.
>
> Yes, unless you let your kids or some guests use your computer.

How many of your "kids and guests" even know what a kernel is, let alone
how to exploit a bug in one?

>> Today, hosts generally serve only one unix user, there 
>> generally is only one local user of one host, and that local user is 
>> the user that owns everything valuable. So is the a real point to 
>> local-user-to-root exploits? I suppose there is, but it is much smaller 
>> than it was ten or twenty years ago.
>
> The problem is not the local user == the owner, instead it is an 
> unknown breaking in as a local user and then gaining root powers.

That's not going to be terribly difficult on a system I use as accounts
I'm using usually can get root via sudo without entering a password.
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Re: [DNG] Beware

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 21:55:12 +0100, shraptor wrote in message 
<0f6f017d5d303a92526f829661e84...@epost.bahnhof.se>:

> On 2016-01-19 19:07, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
> > In this particular case, an unprivileged local user could gain root
> > access by running a program which does billions of syscalls as fast
> > as it can for ca 30 minutes (according the 'real' article).
> 
> I tested the program in the 'real' article but it didn't work?
> 
> But I guess you have to adjust addresses of commit_creds and 
> prepare_kernel_cred functions for my kernel version?
> The article says they are static and can be determined per Linux
> kernel version.
> 
> How to determine those? some kind of stacksmashing?

..recipe suggestions:
http://perception-point.io/2016/01/14/analysis-and-exploitation-of-a-linux-kernel-vulnerability-cve-2016-0728/
https://gist.github.com/PerceptionPointTeam/18b1e86d1c0f8531ff8f
https://phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item=Linux-Kernel-2016-0-Day
https://www.debian.org/security/2016/dsa-3448

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Beware

[Rainer Weikusat]

shraptor  writes:
> On 2016-01-19 19:07, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
>> In this particular case, an unprivileged local user could gain root
>> access by running a program which does billions of syscalls as fast as
>> it can for ca 30 minutes (according the 'real' article).
>
> I tested the program in the 'real' article but it didn't work?
>
> But I guess you have to adjust addresses of commit_creds and
> prepare_kernel_cred functions for my kernel version?
> The article says they are static and can be determined per Linux
> kernel version.
>
> How to determine those?

You can find them in the System.map file for your kernel, eg,

[rw@doppelsaurus]~#grep prepare_kernel_cred  /boot/System.map-4.4.0-net 
810555f0 T prepare_kernel_cred
8179d680 R __ksymtab_prepare_kernel_cred
817acd40 r __kstrtab_prepare_kernel_cred

The T entry is the address of the function.

> some kind of stacksmashing?

No. The bug in the kernel function causes a reference to some object to
be leaked, ie, the reference count is incremented but not
decremented. This can be used to increment the count until the value
overflows to 0. The kernel will then free the object but without
invalidating the handle to it on the wrong presumption that since
refcount == 0, no handle exists anymore. These objects are allocated via
kmalloc which is a power-of-two freelist allocator. The implies that
it's possible to get the kernel to reuse the erroneously freed object
for 'something different' of a suitable size and users can copy
arbitrary data into the corresponding buffer. That used to create a
mock 'original object' with a function pointer value in it which points
to an application function accomplishing the privilege escalation. Since
the process still has a valid handle to the freed object, this handle
can be used to invoke a system call working with the user-supplied new
content of the corresponding memory area which then causes the kernel
to call the exploit function.
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[DNG] OpenBSD doas - was Re: Beware

[Dave Turner]

Has anybody had a good look at the new OpenBSD 'doas' replacement for sudo?
I hope doas will be as easy to set up as they claim, sudo can be a bit 
of a pain to setup exactly how you want it.


DaveT

On 19/01/16 21:58, Stephanie Daugherty wrote:


On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Arnt Karlsen > wrote:


..why did Debian kill ssh into localhost?
Is su or sudo safer than ssh nowadays?



Because the architecture of Linux gurantees that root has a fixed 
account name, fixed UID, and, if in a server environment, will be 
essentially a shared account, it's considered a long standing best 
practice to not let people log in directly as root, at least not 
remotely. This makes sure there's an audit trail of logging in with 
the unprivileged user and then elevating to root, rather than just the 
root login that doesn't indicate which of possibly several users was 
responsible. It also means a brute force against the root account is 
more difficult to automate, since you need to attack an umprivledged 
account first, and it offers a little bit of protection against a weak 
root password.


sudo is generally the accepted way in the ubuntu world as well as in 
most server environments these days, since the audit trail will record 
exactly what commands were elevated and by who, and since only a 
single command is run with elevated permissions, therefore dropping 
back to an unprivledged command prompt after each elevated command.


su was the best practice long before sudo or even Linux ever existed, 
and is still perfectly acceptable for hobbyists, desktops, and others 
where there's exactly one *competent* admin for each machine. and may 
even be a viable option in other, more controlled environments that 
don't want to use sudo. Historically, on other *nixes, it was gated 
with the "wheel" group, (and this can be done on Linux as well if the 
admin wants to configure it this way).


Obviously, this has the additional advantage that, through some 
tinkering with PAM, you can implement additional authentication 
requirements just on root access - for example, you might let your 
admins log in and look around with just their SSH key, but require 
them to have an additional password or multifactor authentication 
token to access root privileges.





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Re: [DNG] lilo development has ended

[Stephanie Daugherty]

the plethora of numbered config files is a consequence of debian policy
(config files have to be owned by exactly one package, and that's the only
package which can automatically touch them) rather, than any design of
grub2 itself. Split configs is the way that Debian works around this policy
while still allowing packages to automate configuration - the kernel
package owns a file with the bits needed to enable that kernel, the
memtest86 package own a file with the bits to add memtest86, and so on, so
that there are no turf wars

The same pattern exists in many other Debian packages, it's not a grub2
thing at all.

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 2:13 PM, Edward Bartolo  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> On this machine I am using right now on which I developed netman, I
> have grub2 installed. Since I never agreed with how grub2 should be
> managed, I opted to use a manual method to update grub.cfg. This
> machine has about 9 Debian/Devuan installations installed to separate
> partitions on a GPT formatted disk. The first partition is the one
> dedicated to maintain grub2 with only a terminal and root as a user. I
> found that grub.cfg uses an easy syntax that I can adopt to manually
> edit the file to achieve more or less the same ease of use I used to
> enjoy with grub1. In case grub2 overwrites grub.cfg, I keep a backup
> so as to easily restore it to the prior state. All other installations
> do not have a bootloader installed so that the primary bootloader
> would always continue to load the correct manually written grub.cfg as
> I wanted.
>
> My setup prevents any installation from modifying grub.cfg without my
> knowledge. It also makes it impossible for any installation to modify
> the primary bootloader except the one with grub2 installed that I
> almost seldom boot. In fact, there is no grub menu entry for the
> installation that I use to manage grub2. When I need to do that, I
> press 'e' as soon as the grub2 menu is displayed and edit the menu
> entry's stanza as appropriate.
>
> Although it may sound complicated, this setup saved me quite a lot of
> headaches about changing menus without my approval.
>
> Edward
>
> On 19/01/2016, Joel Roth  wrote:
> > Steve Litt wrote:
> >> On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 17:20:10 +0100
> >> Adam Borowski  wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 11:02:17AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> >> > > Grub is the systemd of bootloaders. It's all about pretty colors,
> >> > > nice images, and hiding the fact that processes are being
> >> > > instantiated.
> >> >
> >> > Grub is complex, but that's caused by what it tries to do (read the
> >> > kernel image from real filesystems instead of a blockmap like lilo).
> >> > It doesn't go beyond its scope, unlike systemd.
> >>
> >> The preceding paragraph was much more true of Grub1 than its gargantuan
> >> spawn, Grub2.
> >>
> >> Grub1 read filesystems just fine. Grub2 has prioritized all sorts of
> >> pretty, and the simplicity of Grub1 has been lost.
> >
> > The grub developers wrote that they began grub2 due
> > to limitations and maintenance problems with grub1.
> >
> >> SteveT
> >>
> >> Steve Litt
> >> January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
> >> http://www.troubleshooters.com/28
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
> >
> > --
> > Joel Roth
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >
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Re: [DNG] lilo development has ended

[Dave Turner]

I use lilo on assorted tired old bits of kit.
The fact it can't cope with GPT and what have you isn't a problem.
I will be using lilo on old kit until they fall over.

Grub1 was getting a bit tired. I can understand why they felt grub2 was
needed.
I was running debian unstable during the changeover from grub to grub2.
What fun was had! For a couple of weeks you were never sure if your
computer would boot after an upgrade.
I got really good at working around that.

DaveT

(managed to hit reply instead of reply to list! oops)

 On 19/01/16 16:02, Steve Litt wrote:

On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 15:48:40 -
"dev1fanboy"  wrote:


Hopefully something will happen with it, personally I'd use grub but
it does some fancy stuff I'm not a fan of.

Grub is the systemd of bootloaders. It's all about pretty colors, nice
images, and hiding the fact that processes are being instantiated.

What's so sad is that grub 1 was wonderful. One file, everything was
easy and obvious. Grub2 has different but similar executables, and you
go traipsing all over a tree of numbered files to change every little
thing, or else unauthorizedly change the already compiled version and
hope nothing overrides it.

SteveT

Steve Litt
January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28


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Re: [DNG] Beware

[Stephanie Daugherty]

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 4:12 PM, Arnt Karlsen  wrote:

> ..why did Debian kill ssh into localhost?
> Is su or sudo safer than ssh nowadays?
>


Because the architecture of Linux gurantees that root has a fixed account
name, fixed UID, and, if in a server environment, will be essentially a
shared account, it's considered a long standing best practice to not let
people log in directly as root, at least not remotely. This makes sure
there's an audit trail of logging in with the unprivileged user and then
elevating to root, rather than just the root login that doesn't indicate
which of possibly several users was responsible. It also means a brute
force against the root account is more difficult to automate, since you
need to attack an umprivledged account first, and it offers a little bit of
protection against a weak root password.

sudo is generally the accepted way in the ubuntu world as well as in most
server environments these days, since the audit trail will record exactly
what commands were elevated and by who, and since only a single command is
run with elevated permissions, therefore dropping back to an unprivledged
command prompt after each elevated command.

su was the best practice long before sudo or even Linux ever existed, and
is still perfectly acceptable for hobbyists, desktops, and others where
there's exactly one *competent* admin for each machine. and may even be a
viable option in other, more controlled environments that don't want to use
sudo. Historically, on other *nixes, it was gated with the "wheel" group,
(and this can be done on Linux as well if the admin wants to configure it
this way).

Obviously, this has the additional advantage that, through some tinkering
with PAM, you can implement additional authentication requirements just on
root access - for example, you might let your admins log in and look around
with just their SSH key, but require them to have an additional password or
multifactor authentication token to access root privileges.
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Re: [DNG] Beware

[shraptor]

On 2016-01-19 19:07, Rainer Weikusat wrote:

In this particular case, an unprivileged local user could gain root
access by running a program which does billions of syscalls as fast as
it can for ca 30 minutes (according the 'real' article).


I tested the program in the 'real' article but it didn't work?

But I guess you have to adjust addresses of commit_creds and 
prepare_kernel_cred functions for my kernel version?
The article says they are static and can be determined per Linux kernel 
version.


How to determine those? some kind of stacksmashing?
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Re: [DNG] Beware

[Brian Nash]

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 06:07:28PM +, Rainer Weikusat wrote:

"Linux kernel bug fixed" would be more appropriate.


Is this why I have never heard of any "antivirus" software for linux?
(Apart from clamav a while back...)

The users are capable of fixing the vulnerabilities themselves, so a
dedicated, cash-draining system such as Norton, and/or a cheap, sketchy
program such as McAfee are nearly irrelevant?

--
Shoot first and call whatever you hit the target.


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Re: [DNG] Beware

[Rainer Weikusat]

Adam Borowski  writes:
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 04:09:10PM +, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
>> Steve Litt  writes:
>> > Beware:
>> >
>> > http://www.networkworld.com/article/3023447/security/linux-zero-day-affects-most-androids-millions-of-linux-pcs.html
>> 
>> Just another local privilege escalation. May enable users to gain
>> control of their own Android devices (imminent end of the world
>> predicted!) and affect setups where untrusted users are able to execute
>> arbitrary code as themselves.
>
> While rooting locked-down Androids is a good think, one shouldn't play down
> the severity of local exploits.

In this particular case, an unprivileged local user could gain root
access by running a program which does billions of syscalls as fast as
it can for ca 30 minutes (according the 'real' article).

And "affects most androids and millions of Linux PCs" is a way
overdramatized headline for that.

"Linux kernel bug fixed" would be more appropriate.
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Re: [DNG] Beware

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

By now, the concept of unprivileged local users is a little obsolete 
anyway.


Today, hosts generally serve only one unix user, there 
generally is only one local user of one host, and that local user is 
the user that owns everything valuable. So is the a real point to 
local-user-to-root exploits? I suppose there is, but it is much smaller 
than it was ten or twenty years ago.


Arnt
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Re: [DNG] Beware

[karl]

Arnt Gulbrandsen:
> By now, the concept of unprivileged local users is a little obsolete 
> anyway.

Yes, unless you let your kids or some guests use your computer.

> Today, hosts generally serve only one unix user, there 
> generally is only one local user of one host, and that local user is 
> the user that owns everything valuable. So is the a real point to 
> local-user-to-root exploits? I suppose there is, but it is much smaller 
> than it was ten or twenty years ago.

The problem is not the local user == the owner, instead it is an 
unknown breaking in as a local user and then gaining root powers.

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

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Re: [DNG] lilo development has ended

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi All,

On this machine I am using right now on which I developed netman, I
have grub2 installed. Since I never agreed with how grub2 should be
managed, I opted to use a manual method to update grub.cfg. This
machine has about 9 Debian/Devuan installations installed to separate
partitions on a GPT formatted disk. The first partition is the one
dedicated to maintain grub2 with only a terminal and root as a user. I
found that grub.cfg uses an easy syntax that I can adopt to manually
edit the file to achieve more or less the same ease of use I used to
enjoy with grub1. In case grub2 overwrites grub.cfg, I keep a backup
so as to easily restore it to the prior state. All other installations
do not have a bootloader installed so that the primary bootloader
would always continue to load the correct manually written grub.cfg as
I wanted.

My setup prevents any installation from modifying grub.cfg without my
knowledge. It also makes it impossible for any installation to modify
the primary bootloader except the one with grub2 installed that I
almost seldom boot. In fact, there is no grub menu entry for the
installation that I use to manage grub2. When I need to do that, I
press 'e' as soon as the grub2 menu is displayed and edit the menu
entry's stanza as appropriate.

Although it may sound complicated, this setup saved me quite a lot of
headaches about changing menus without my approval.

Edward

On 19/01/2016, Joel Roth  wrote:
> Steve Litt wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 17:20:10 +0100
>> Adam Borowski  wrote:
>>
>> > On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 11:02:17AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
>> > > Grub is the systemd of bootloaders. It's all about pretty colors,
>> > > nice images, and hiding the fact that processes are being
>> > > instantiated.
>> >
>> > Grub is complex, but that's caused by what it tries to do (read the
>> > kernel image from real filesystems instead of a blockmap like lilo).
>> > It doesn't go beyond its scope, unlike systemd.
>>
>> The preceding paragraph was much more true of Grub1 than its gargantuan
>> spawn, Grub2.
>>
>> Grub1 read filesystems just fine. Grub2 has prioritized all sorts of
>> pretty, and the simplicity of Grub1 has been lost.
>
> The grub developers wrote that they began grub2 due
> to limitations and maintenance problems with grub1.
>
>> SteveT
>>
>> Steve Litt
>> January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
>> http://www.troubleshooters.com/28
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
>
> --
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>
>
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Re: [DNG] Beware

[Rainer Weikusat]

shraptor  writes:
> On 2016-01-19 16:58, Steve Litt wrote:
>> Beware:
>>
>> http://www.networkworld.com/article/3023447/security/linux-zero-day-affects-most-androids-millions-of-linux-pcs.html
>
> Would this type of misbehavior be mitigated by kernel ASLR?

No.

It could be mitigated by 'uninventing' malloc as the idea to group
objects together based on their size (instead of their type) was never a
particularly good one but that's unlikely to happen.
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Re: [DNG] How stable is the devuan migration?

[Didier Kryn]

Le 19/01/2016 14:06, Micky Del Favero a écrit :

On workstations I cannot do it because removing dbus remove also
inkskape


That's an example of crazy contamination. Why the f. does inkscape 
need dbus interaction?


Didier

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Re: [DNG] lilo development has ended

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 07:26:57 -1000
Joel Roth  wrote:

> Steve Litt wrote:
> > On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 17:20:10 +0100
> > Adam Borowski  wrote:
> >   
> > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 11:02:17AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:  
> > > > Grub is the systemd of bootloaders. It's all about pretty
> > > > colors, nice images, and hiding the fact that processes are
> > > > being instantiated.
> > > 
> > > Grub is complex, but that's caused by what it tries to do (read
> > > the kernel image from real filesystems instead of a blockmap like
> > > lilo). It doesn't go beyond its scope, unlike systemd.  
> > 
> > The preceding paragraph was much more true of Grub1 than its
> > gargantuan spawn, Grub2.
> > 
> > Grub1 read filesystems just fine. Grub2 has prioritized all sorts of
> > pretty, and the simplicity of Grub1 has been lost.  
> 
> The grub developers wrote that they began grub2 due
> to limitations and maintenance problems with grub1.

The preceding sentence is almost exactly my point. The systemd
developers wrote that they began systemd due to the limitations and
maintenance problems with sysvinit. 

No doubt in my mind that at some point sysvinit must go on the
scrapheap of history, and I wouldn't argue that old Grub must go there
too. But the replacement ought not to be worse than the old clunker
it's replacing.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28


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Re: [DNG] Startup delays (Was: The perversion continues)

[Ozi Traveller]

If I boot the modem and the laptop at the same time, I always get a 30s
wait.

If the modem up and running, there's no delay in booting.

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 11:49 AM, aitor_czr  wrote:

> On 01/19/2016 01:00 PM, KatolaZ 
>  wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 07:37:21AM +1100, Ozi Traveller wrote:
>
> > I have created iso using live-build for Debian wheezy and jessie as well 
> > as> Devuan Jessie. Apart from systemd and slight version differences they 
> > are> the same. Debian Jessie boot the slowest.>
>
> Hi Ozi,
>
> would it be possible for you to please repeat the experiment in a more
> scientific way, i.e., reporting the average total time needed to boot
> in the two cases, as reported by the kernel, and the associated
> standard variance over a set of realisations (boots) on the same
> machine?
>
> My2Cents
>
> KatolaZ
>
>
> One year ago i did a dual boot including different architectures of debian
> jessie...
>
> Scientific boot time: 1 minute and 30 seconds, including a beatyfull
> countdown with red asterisks [***]
>
>   Aitor.
>
> [***] My goodbye to systemd forever
>
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Re: [DNG] Startup delays (Was: The perversion continues)

[aitor_czr]

On 01/19/2016 01:00 PM, KatolaZ  wrote:

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 07:37:21AM +1100, Ozi Traveller wrote:

>I have created iso using live-build for Debian wheezy and jessie as well as
>Devuan Jessie. Apart from systemd and slight version differences they are
>the same. Debian Jessie boot the slowest.
>

Hi Ozi,

would it be possible for you to please repeat the experiment in a more
scientific way, i.e., reporting the average total time needed to boot
in the two cases, as reported by the kernel, and the associated
standard variance over a set of realisations (boots) on the same
machine?

My2Cents

KatolaZ


One year ago i did a dual boot including different architectures of 
debian jessie...


Scientific boot time: 1 minute and 30 seconds, including a beatyfull 
countdown with red asterisks [***]


  Aitor.

[***] My goodbye to systemd forever
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Re: [DNG] lilo development has ended

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 20 Jan 2016 00:04:25 +0100
richard lucassen  wrote:

> On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 14:44:59 -
> "dev1fanboy"  wrote:

> > So I assume lilo has stopped development altogether from the last
> > release, and we can look forward to only having the more complex
> > grub2.   
> 
> Unless you use a small ext2 boot partition for your kernels. And for
> raid: if you create an md device for /boot/ with --metadata=0.90 then
> lilo will still work.

That ext2 must be on a smaller than 2TB disk, unless you want to throw
away some of the disk's capacity. For a desktop, this is no problem: Do
what I do and have / on a little MBR formatted SSD, with /home and /var
and other stuff that actually writes often on a large, UEFI formatted
disk.

For laptops it's a little harder because you can't (AFAIK) boot modern
windows with an MBR disk, and you must have a functional Windows to
maintain your ability to access warranty parts replacement.

With old laptops, I just jettison the Windows and mbr format the disk;
heck, I have no warranty anyway.


SteveT

Steve Litt 
January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28


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Re: [DNG] How stable is the devuan migration?

[Anto]

On 19/01/16 12:59, Nuno Magalhães wrote:

Greetings,

I have a VPS running whezzy (7.8) which was a little behind updates
before systemd hit the fan. It's used as a LAMP stack and i'm
wondering how easy would it be to upgrade it to devuan.

I had a debian vm laying around and remember i did just that and IIRC
it wasn't a big deal. Does anyone have fresh/recent input/tips?

TIA,
Nuno


Hello Nuno,

I guess it depends on what kind of VPS that you have.

I have 3 VPS', one KVM based and 2 Xen PV based. All of them are running 
Devuan jessie and I don't experience any significant issues. I only had 
some issues during the upgrade from Debian wheezy to Devuan jessie.


I just rented the KVM based VPS last month. I started the installation 
with Debian wheezy 64 bit and cleaned up everything related to systemd, 
mostly due to the use of eudev. I then upgraded to Devuan jessie. The 
only glitch that I had experienced is that, the upgrade process removed 
openssh-server and ssh packages. It also screwed up some packages. I was 
not worry on KVM based VPS as I have full access via the console 
including the access to the GRUB menu during boot.


I had issues on one of my Xen PV based VPS' last year that after the 
upgrade I could not login any more to my VPS either via SSH or console, 
so I had to re-image it a few times. I think that is mainly because of 
the console on Xen PV based VPS has very minimal functionalities. A part 
from that, I think the usage of GRUB legacy on Xen PV based VPS also 
contributes to the locked up of my VPS. I tried to upgrade to GRUB2 but 
I had some issues with that so I stayed with GRUB1. So I had to be 
really careful in upgrading Xen PV based VPS. I usually add --dry-run 
option first when I use apt-get -u dist-upgrade. If the result showed me 
something strange on some packages, I do the upgrade first on those 
packages one by one.


Kind regards,

Anto

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[DNG] lilo development has ended

[Robert Storey]

Hi everyone. It's been a long time since I posted here, but don't worry, I
haven't gone over to the Dark Side (ie Systemd). I've just been quietly
waiting for Devuan-beta, and in the meantime have tried to keep out of the
way of the Devuan developers rather than waste their time with my ignorant
prattle. At the moment, I'm still happily using antiX, which is thankfully
systemd-free.

Now with that out of the way...

Steve Litt said:

> Grub is the systemd of bootloaders. It's all about pretty colors, nice
> images, and hiding the fact that processes are being instantiated.
>
> What's so sad is that grub 1 was wonderful. One file, everything was
> easy and obvious. Grub2 has different but similar executables, and you
> go traipsing all over a tree of numbered files to change every little
> thing, or else unauthorizedly change the already compiled version and
> hope nothing overrides it.

I couldn't agree more. It's a bit sad that even antiX now defaults to
Grub2, but I manage to keep everything working with Grub1. There is still
the grub-legacy package in Debian, but just to be safe from some
systemd-like stealth operation, I actually keep a small partition with
Puppy Linux installed - it uses Grub1 by default, so I let that be my boot
loader partition. I don't really use Puppy for much else, even though it's
kind of "cute." There are still a few other distros that have Grub1 as the
default (PCLinuxOS, I believe).

Of course, this solution probably won't work if you've formatted your hard
drive with GPT. I'm sticking with MBR for now, even though I don't really
have anything against GPT as such. I'm fortunate in that my computer
supports BIOS booting - I dread this "secure boot" EFI thing that Microsoft
has imposed on the world.

There are some questions I'd like to ask some of you tech-saavy folks about
boot loaders/ boot managers...

1) Any opinions about rEFInd?
http://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/

2) Any opinions about SYSLINUX?

Rod Smith (author of rEFInd) has a good but brief info page on EFI boot
loaders...

http://www.rodsbooks.com/efi-bootloaders/

...but I admit to being a bit confused on which to use.

cheers,
Robert
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[DNG] Input Method Framework

[メット]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Hi dear list,

Thanks again for all the work u did on Dev1 and tell me if I can help in anyway.

I followed devuanfanboy howto, removed dbus and installed fluxbox（was under 
xfce b4）

Thing is Im using Japanese a lot and need anthy or similar.

I used to go with scim or ibus but it seems they both need dbus, even the 
compiled version.

Was wondering if sby knew a non-dbus dependant IM or a way to circumvent this.

Also, I had some luck w/ the pkged ibus version, and could write Japanese 
despite the fact it complained about not finding dbus.
Problem then was I couldnt use Fluxbox,
only the running applications（tabbed and surf）were working.

Will take any pointers or advices,
TIA.
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Version: APG v1.1.1

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=+/VY
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Re: [DNG] Input Method Framework

[David Kuehling]

Hi メット,

I haven't yet found the time to actually upgrade my Debian systems to
Devuan.  I didn even consider, that there are pitfalls around the input
method support, thanks for the info, it is good to be able to consider
these things in advance (I use japanese input myself).

My usual workaround for input-method related problems is to do
everything in Emacs.  Emacs has its own japanese input method built in
(M-x set-input-method  japanese ).  And there is also a
package that adds anthy support (apt-get install anthy-el; M-x
set-input-method  japanese-anthy ).

Downside is, you have to do all the writing in emacs.  Emacs' japanese
input support is one of the reasons I use Emacs/Gnus for writing mail.
Nice thing is, I can still properly write japanese texts, even from the
terminal when ssh-ing into my system.

I will have a look at these issues, once upgrading my system to Devuan.
Until then, please keep us posted about any progress you make.

グッドラック,

David

> "メット" == メット   writes:

> Hi dear list,

> Thanks again for all the work u did on Dev1 and tell me if I can help
> in anyway.

> I followed devuanfanboy howto, removed dbus and installed fluxbox（was
> under xfce b4）

> Thing is Im using Japanese a lot and need anthy or similar.

> I used to go with scim or ibus but it seems they both need dbus, even
> the compiled version.

> Was wondering if sby knew a non-dbus dependant IM or a way to
> circumvent this.

> Also, I had some luck w/ the pkged ibus version, and could write
> Japanese despite the fact it complained about not finding dbus.
> Problem then was I couldnt use Fluxbox, only the running
> applications（tabbed and surf）were working.

> Will take any pointers or advices, TIA.


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Re: [DNG] lilo development has ended

[Hendrik Boom]

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 03:25:13PM +, Nuno Magalhães wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 2:44 PM, dev1fanboy  
> wrote:
> > So I assume lilo has stopped development altogether from the last release, 
> > and we can look forward to only having the more complex grub2.

I'm still using lolp on Debian wheezy (and I'm preparing to upgrade to 
devuan jessie), but I don't need any of these file systems they seem to 
have trouble supporting.  Please keep it around, even if it doesn't have 
the new-fangled filesystems.

> 
> Slackware uses lilo by default, maybe someone there will tend to it.
> Or the IoT crowd.
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Re: [DNG] How stable is the devuan migration?

[fsmithred]

I did an upgrade of wheezy to devuan jessie last week, and it was
uneventful. It seemed easier than any major upgrades of debian that I've
done in the past. Boring description is here -
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20160114.194903.4e35c189.en.html

fsr


On 01/19/2016 06:59 AM, Nuno Magalhães wrote:
> Greetings,
> 
> I have a VPS running whezzy (7.8) which was a little behind updates
> before systemd hit the fan. It's used as a LAMP stack and i'm
> wondering how easy would it be to upgrade it to devuan.
> 
> I had a debian vm laying around and remember i did just that and IIRC
> it wasn't a big deal. Does anyone have fresh/recent input/tips?
> 
> TIA,
> Nuno
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Re: [DNG] How stable is the devuan migration?

[Micky Del Favero]

Nuno Magalhães  writes:

> I had a debian vm laying around and remember i did just that and IIRC
> it wasn't a big deal. Does anyone have fresh/recent input/tips?

not too much recent, I did last upgrade at the end of november 2015, the
first one was back in may 2015, maybe before (some of list readers
probably remember my post on VUA's facebook group about it :-) ).

It's very simple to upgrade from debian wheezy to devuan jessie, simply
put in /etc/apt/sources.list

deb http://packages.devuan.org/merged jessie main contrib non-free

then run:

  # apt-get update
  # apt-get install devuan-keyring devuan-baseconf sysinit-core

sysinit-core is (was?) necessary because without it sysvinit will be
"upgrade" to systemd

Then remove all entry about wheezy in /etc/apt/sources.list and run:

  # apt-get update
  # apt-get dist-upgrade

No problem at all for me, but I don't use gnome, kde or any desktop
enviroment, I don't like them, I use only dwm.

At the end of upgrade on my servers I also run:

  # apt-get remove --purge dbus

to clean installation from dbus, consolekit and co.

On workstations I cannot do it because removing dbus remove also
inkskape (and probably something else that I haven't installed) that
sometimes I use.

Ciao, Micky
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Re: [DNG] How stable is the devuan migration?

[dev1fanboy]

quick and easy, no reboot involved for wheezy as systemd isn't pid1 there. 


On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 11:59 AM, Nuno Magalhães  
wrote:
> Greetings,
> 
> I have a VPS running whezzy (7.8) which was a little behind updates
> before systemd hit the fan. It's used as a LAMP stack and i'm
> wondering how easy would it be to upgrade it to devuan.
> 
> I had a debian vm laying around and remember i did just that and IIRC
> it wasn't a big deal. Does anyone have fresh/recent input/tips?
> 
> TIA,
> Nuno
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Re: [DNG] lilo development has ended

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 2:44 PM, dev1fanboy  wrote:
> So I assume lilo has stopped development altogether from the last release, 
> and we can look forward to only having the more complex grub2.

Slackware uses lilo by default, maybe someone there will tend to it.
Or the IoT crowd.
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[DNG] lilo development has ended

[dev1fanboy]

https://lilo.alioth.debian.org/

The author has updated their site to say:

"NOTE: I will finish development of LILO at December 2015 because of some 
limitations (e.g. with BTFS, GPT, RAID). If someone want to develop this nice 
software further, please let me know ..."

So I assume lilo has stopped development altogether from the last release, and 
we can look forward to only having the more complex grub2. 
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Re: [DNG] lilo development has ended

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 14:44:59 -
"dev1fanboy"  wrote:

> https://lilo.alioth.debian.org/
> 
> The author has updated their site to say:
> 
> "NOTE: I will finish development of LILO at December 2015 because of
> some limitations (e.g. with BTFS, GPT, RAID). If someone want to
> develop this nice software further, please let me know ..."
> 
> So I assume lilo has stopped development altogether from the last
> release, and we can look forward to only having the more complex
> grub2. 

This sucks.


SteveT

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January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
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Re: [DNG] lilo development has ended

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 15:48:40 -
"dev1fanboy"  wrote:

> Hopefully something will happen with it, personally I'd use grub but
> it does some fancy stuff I'm not a fan of.

Grub is the systemd of bootloaders. It's all about pretty colors, nice
images, and hiding the fact that processes are being instantiated.

What's so sad is that grub 1 was wonderful. One file, everything was
easy and obvious. Grub2 has different but similar executables, and you
go traipsing all over a tree of numbered files to change every little
thing, or else unauthorizedly change the already compiled version and
hope nothing overrides it.

SteveT

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January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28


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Re: [DNG] Beware

[Adam Borowski]

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 04:09:10PM +, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
> Steve Litt  writes:
> > Beware:
> >
> > http://www.networkworld.com/article/3023447/security/linux-zero-day-affects-most-androids-millions-of-linux-pcs.html
> 
> Just another local privilege escalation. May enable users to gain
> control of their own Android devices (imminent end of the world
> predicted!) and affect setups where untrusted users are able to execute
> arbitrary code as themselves.

While rooting locked-down Androids is a good think, one shouldn't play down
the severity of local exploits.  While in a number of scenarios the game is
already lost without the attacker gaining root, they're not use cases.

But a kernel vulnerability differs from any other patched security issue
only by the need to reboot after "apt-get upgrade".

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Re: [DNG] Beware

[Rainer Weikusat]

Steve Litt  writes:
> Beware:
>
> http://www.networkworld.com/article/3023447/security/linux-zero-day-affects-most-androids-millions-of-linux-pcs.html

Just another local privilege escalation. May enable users to gain
control of their own Android devices (imminent end of the world
predicted!) and affect setups where untrusted users are able to execute
arbitrary code as themselves.

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Re: [DNG] Beware

[Mitt Green]

Does that actually mean that we should migrate
to newer kernels as soon as the hole gets fixed?

I reckon, even though there are plenty of
machines that run older than 3.8 (2.6.32 notably)
this affects pretty much everyone, at least here.

Well, applying patches is not something
time-consuming, but still.

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[DNG] Beware

[Steve Litt]

Beware:

http://www.networkworld.com/article/3023447/security/linux-zero-day-affects-most-androids-millions-of-linux-pcs.html

SteveT

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Re: [DNG] lilo development has ended

[dev1fanboy]

Hopefully something will happen with it, personally I'd use grub but it does 
some fancy stuff I'm not a fan of.

On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 3:25 PM, Nuno Magalhães  
wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 2:44 PM, dev1fanboy 
> wrote:
>> So I assume lilo has stopped development altogether from the last
>> release, and we can look forward to only having the more complex grub2.
> 
> Slackware uses lilo by default, maybe someone there will tend to it.
> Or the IoT crowd.
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Re: [DNG] lilo development has ended

[Adam Borowski]

On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 11:02:17AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> Grub is the systemd of bootloaders. It's all about pretty colors, nice
> images, and hiding the fact that processes are being instantiated.

Grub is complex, but that's caused by what it tries to do (read the kernel
image from real filesystems instead of a blockmap like lilo).  It doesn't
go beyond its scope, unlike systemd.

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Re: [DNG] lilo development has ended

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 17:20:10 +0100
Adam Borowski  wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 11:02:17AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> > Grub is the systemd of bootloaders. It's all about pretty colors,
> > nice images, and hiding the fact that processes are being
> > instantiated.  
> 
> Grub is complex, but that's caused by what it tries to do (read the
> kernel image from real filesystems instead of a blockmap like lilo).
> It doesn't go beyond its scope, unlike systemd.

The preceding paragraph was much more true of Grub1 than its gargantuan
spawn, Grub2.

Grub1 read filesystems just fine. Grub2 has prioritized all sorts of
pretty, and the simplicity of Grub1 has been lost.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28


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Re: [DNG] Beware

[shraptor]

On 2016-01-19 16:58, Steve Litt wrote:

Beware:

http://www.networkworld.com/article/3023447/security/linux-zero-day-affects-most-androids-millions-of-linux-pcs.html


Would this type of misbehavior be mitigated by kernel ASLR?
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Re: [DNG] lilo development has ended

[Joel Roth]

Steve Litt wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Jan 2016 17:20:10 +0100
> Adam Borowski  wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 11:02:17AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> > > Grub is the systemd of bootloaders. It's all about pretty colors,
> > > nice images, and hiding the fact that processes are being
> > > instantiated.  
> > 
> > Grub is complex, but that's caused by what it tries to do (read the
> > kernel image from real filesystems instead of a blockmap like lilo).
> > It doesn't go beyond its scope, unlike systemd.
> 
> The preceding paragraph was much more true of Grub1 than its gargantuan
> spawn, Grub2.
> 
> Grub1 read filesystems just fine. Grub2 has prioritized all sorts of
> pretty, and the simplicity of Grub1 has been lost.

The grub developers wrote that they began grub2 due
to limitations and maintenance problems with grub1.
 
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt 
> January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/28
> 
> 
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