Re: [DNG] Evince

[Noel Torres]

Adam Borowski  escribió:
[...]

Evince is evil and insane.  #721783 is one of many regressions.  You want
atril for a fork of evince from before its upstream went completely bonkers.
It's still gnomey but to a far more acceptable degree.


I installed okular (and its dependences) and it works perfectly for me.

Regards

Noel
er Envite


binI5Xuz6eiKQ.bin
Description: Clave PGP pública


pgp7gve4u8358.pgp
Description: Firma digital PGP
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Re: [DNG] OpenRC

[Dragan FOSS]

On 05/26/2016 01:23 AM, Steve Litt wrote:

capability of respawning daemons that crash? OpenRC can't do that.


OpenRC *can* do that:

---
Automatic respawning crashed services
---

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/OpenRC

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Re: [DNG] OpenRC

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 24 May 2016 14:06:33 +0200
 wrote:

> Is there a link to an instruction how to use (and setup) openrc
> together with sysvinit? 
> 
> I'd like to use openrc as a tool to administrate daemons and services
> since i find it a lot more "logical" (easy?). 

Before you do this, allow me to ask you this question: Do you want the
capability of respawning daemons that crash? OpenRC can't do that. If
you prefer respawning, consider using s3, daemontools-encore or even
Runit to manage your daemons.

Many people feel that respawning is a pact with the devil: If something
crashes, it should stay crashed for further investigation rather than
"painting over it" with a respawn. If you feel that way, OpenRC is a
good bet. 

SteveT

Steve Litt 
May 2016 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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Re: [DNG] Pulseaudio ...

[Joel Roth]

Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> On Wed, 25 May 2016 11:40:27 -0400, Steve wrote in message 
> <20160525114027.64eb3...@mydesk.domain.cxm>:
> 
> > On Wed, 25 May 2016 07:56:57 +0200
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > > Is pulseaudio necessary? As i understand it (and as i remember), it
> > > shouldn't be needed (in lubuntu at least in former times) it was not
> > > installed ... (?) But it's a long time i was away from Debian ...
> > 
> > There's no Pulseaudio on my system. So I don't get centralized
> > individual volume controls for each of my sound sources. Boo hoo hoo
> > hoo hoo.
> > 
> > When I need to use the Microsoft sabotaged Skype, which requires
> > Pulseaudio, I run it via apulse instead, and it works just fine. No
> > reason to use Pulseaudio itself.
> > 
> > IMHO Alsa is sufficient.
> > 
> > Once I built a Manjaro-OpenRC system with no Pulseaudio AND no Alsa.
> > Just OSS. Worked great, played Youtube videos just fine. I've never
> > again been able to do that.
> 
> ..well, we're not exactly out of sound server options: ;o)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_free_software_for_audio#Technologies
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_audio_software#Sound_servers
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_server
> 
> ..why not try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JACK_Audio_Connection_Kit 
> on ditching PulseAudio?

Because many audio applications aren't JACK compatible?

I think JACK is great, however to meet ordinary users'
needs, you would need an exotic configuration, something
like this:

Audio hardware <> ALSA <> JACK <> ALSA virtual device <---> ALSA 
applications
  ^
   \
\_> JACK applications

Would be great to provide such a configuration out of the
box, but a reading or relevant web pages reveals 
such a variety of options that I wonder if it can be 
practical to support.

And where would OSS emulation come in?

If anyone is comtemplating detailed studies in this
area, I suggest they post to Linux Audio Users or Linux
Audio Developers mailing lists for authoritative comments.

Cheers,



-- 
Joel Roth
  

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Re: [DNG] Pulseaudio ...

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Wed, 25 May 2016 11:40:27 -0400, Steve wrote in message 
<20160525114027.64eb3...@mydesk.domain.cxm>:

> On Wed, 25 May 2016 07:56:57 +0200
>  wrote:
> 
> > Is pulseaudio necessary? As i understand it (and as i remember), it
> > shouldn't be needed (in lubuntu at least in former times) it was not
> > installed ... (?) But it's a long time i was away from Debian ...
> 
> There's no Pulseaudio on my system. So I don't get centralized
> individual volume controls for each of my sound sources. Boo hoo hoo
> hoo hoo.
> 
> When I need to use the Microsoft sabotaged Skype, which requires
> Pulseaudio, I run it via apulse instead, and it works just fine. No
> reason to use Pulseaudio itself.
> 
> IMHO Alsa is sufficient.
> 
> Once I built a Manjaro-OpenRC system with no Pulseaudio AND no Alsa.
> Just OSS. Worked great, played Youtube videos just fine. I've never
> again been able to do that.

..well, we're not exactly out of sound server options: ;o)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_free_software_for_audio#Technologies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_audio_software#Sound_servers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_server

..why not try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JACK_Audio_Connection_Kit 
on ditching PulseAudio?


-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Install a new kernel

[fsmithred]

On 05/25/2016 08:49 AM, Antonio Trkdz.tab wrote:

> 
> Can you suggest a lazier solution (like pre-compiled packages)?
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> Antonio
> 


Lazier:
  apt-get -t jessie-backports install linux-image-4.5.0...


-fsr

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Re: [DNG] OpenRC

[Dragan FOSS]

On 05/24/2016 02:06 PM, emnin...@riseup.net wrote:

Is there a link to an instruction how to use (and setup) openrc
together with sysvinit?

I'd like to use openrc as a tool to administrate daemons and services
since i find it a lot more "logical" (easy?).



TRIOS Mia is fully functional Debian jessie-based distro with OpenRC, 
Eudev, Refind UEFI manager, ZFS support, systemd completely removed...


Desktop environments: Xfce, Gnome3, Mate, Cinnamon, Enlightenment, KDE, 
Lumina..


https://foss.rs/threads/trios-mia-openrc-zfs.3057

Enjoy :)

Dragan
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Re: [DNG] Install a new kernel

[Adam Borowski]

On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 04:19:23PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote:
> > The kernel doesn't make any call to the glibc; it is the
> > opposite: when running the new kernel, the userland invokes the
> > glibc all the time, and this glibc makes system-calls to the new
> > kernel, and there are some changes in the system-calls from kernel
> > version to kernel version. This is why the libc must be recompiled
> > with the proper kernel headers.
> > 
> 
> Well, glibc shoult be retro-compatible, so this should be needed only
> if your applications are going to use those "new" syscalls (if any,
> since most of the times the updates in the glibc are reduced to flags
> and options to existing syscalls).
> 
> If you need to recompile the kernel only because of a missing/newer
> module, you might not need to upgrade your glibc at all, especially
> since all your applications already work fine with the glibc you
> have... :)

Glibc is configured for compatibility with any kernel version above a
specific base.  In jessie, that's 2.6.32, in unstable/stretch/ascii,
3.2.  This can be changed by recompiling glibc, although moving the base
too far back is strongly discouraged by glibc's upstream.

On the other hand, the kernel strongly tries to keep compatibility with
_any_ glibc version ever, including ones from the dawn of time.  Certain
facilities that are detrimental on modern systems are still present, at most
guarded with an #ifdef, such as CONFIG_USELIB or CONFIG_COMPAT_BRK.

-- 
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Re: [DNG] Logout problem

[Ozi Traveller]

https://wiki.debian.org/Suspend

Debian Wheezy (7)

A very notable change is that HAL is phased out. If you still have the
hal package
installed, you should remove it or it will interference with pm-utils during
suspend.

If the suspend / resume works well on your system, you are lucky and no
need to read anything on this page. Or else, the first step to debug is to
enable debugging for pm-utils, who control the suspend and resume process.

Enabling Debugging for pm-utils

The log of suspend and resume processes are in file /var/log/pm-suspend.log.
It contains moderately verbose information by default. More information can
be enabled for debugging by inserting line export PM_DEBUG=true into the
beginning of file/usr/lib/pm-utils/pm-functions.

On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 6:54 PM,  wrote:

> Thanks to Ozi i got two desktop independent logout/hibernate tools which
> generally work fine (cb-exit and oblogout). But i have a problem when i
> try the suspend/restart commands:
>
> I get this error msg:
>
> ---
> Error org.freedesktop.UPower.GeneralError: not authorized
> ---
>
> The command in the above tools is:
> 
> dbus-send --system
> --print-reply--dest="org.freedesktop.UPower" /org/freedesktop/UPower
> org.freedesktop.UPower.Suspend
> 
>
> I googled and i found this:
>
> https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=141337
>
> and this:
>
> http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?t=114412
>
> But i do not see, how to applicate the arch wiki solution to me
> ("Remove ck-launch-session from xinitrc, it's not needed any more and
> the problem was because two sessions were started simultaneously, one
> of which was inactive.") I've no .xinitrc (?)
>
> Thanks in advance for any help.
>
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Re: [DNG] Install a new kernel (Antonio Trkdz.tab)

[Antonio Trkdz.tab]

>i've built linux-libre-4.3.5 in 686, 686-pae and amd64 architectures, and
shortly i'll share the beta of Gnuinos. Give me one week...

Great! Looking forward to it.

Antonio

On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 5:01 PM, aitor_czr  wrote:

> Hi Antonio,
>
> El 25/05/16 a las 16:25, "Antonio Trkdz.tab" 
>  escribió:
>
> Another thing I had a small attempt at was to pull the kernel
> 4.3.05(ish)-libre from gnuinos, but for some reason the repository listed
> in the web page didn't work in my hands.
>
> You are right, both links to the apt repositories of linux-libre and
> bulmages in my website are broken beacuse they were hosted with another
> provider. But still exist the git repositories. On the other hand, i've
> built linux-libre-4.3.5 in 686, 686-pae and amd64 architectures, and
> shortly i'll share the beta of Gnuinos. Give me one week...
>
> Cheers and thanks :)
>
>   Aitor.
>
>
>
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Re: [DNG] Evince

[Rainer Weikusat]

Didier Kryn  writes:
> Le 24/05/2016 12:50, Jaromil a écrit :
> > >>Emacs is a somewhat old-fashioned/ traditional[*] Lisp implemenation
 > >[*] It doesn't support lexical scoping.
 > >
>>> >
>>> >No idea what that means. I like emacs for text editing and don't use it
>>> >for anything else.
>> in brief it means that is impossible to define the scope for a
>> function or variable. so if a function or variable has the same name
>> across the running instance, it will clash. one has in fact to use
>> prefixes or suffixes to distinguish. its quite self-defeating for
>> Emacs at this stage of development, but we can live with it.
>
> You mean functions in elisp language?

This refers to a different deficiency/ missing feature of elisp, namely,
it doesn't support a hierarchically structured 'gobal namespace' (like
C++, Perl or Common Lisp). As in C (and presumably as in older Lisp
variants), all globally visible names have to be unique.
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Re: [DNG] Install a new kernel (Antonio Trkdz.tab)

[aitor_czr]

Hi Antonio,

El 25/05/16 a las 16:25, "Antonio Trkdz.tab"  
escribió:

Another thing I had a small attempt at was to pull the kernel
4.3.05(ish)-libre from gnuinos, but for some reason the repository listed
in the web page didn't work in my hands.
You are right, both links to the apt repositories of linux-libre and 
bulmages in my website are broken beacuse they were hosted with another 
provider. But still exist the git repositories. On the other hand, i've 
built linux-libre-4.3.5 in 686, 686-pae and amd64 architectures, and 
shortly i'll share the beta of Gnuinos. Give me one week...


Cheers and thanks :)

  Aitor.


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Re: [DNG] Pulseaudio ...

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 25 May 2016 07:56:57 +0200
 wrote:

> Is pulseaudio necessary? As i understand it (and as i remember), it
> shouldn't be needed (in lubuntu at least in former times) it was not
> installed ... (?) But it's a long time i was away from Debian ...

There's no Pulseaudio on my system. So I don't get centralized
individual volume controls for each of my sound sources. Boo hoo hoo
hoo hoo.

When I need to use the Microsoft sabotaged Skype, which requires
Pulseaudio, I run it via apulse instead, and it works just fine. No
reason to use Pulseaudio itself.

IMHO Alsa is sufficient.

Once I built a Manjaro-OpenRC system with no Pulseaudio AND no Alsa.
Just OSS. Worked great, played Youtube videos just fine. I've never
again been able to do that.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
May 2016 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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Re: [DNG] Install a new kernel

[KatolaZ]

On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 04:49:12PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 25/05/2016 16:38, KatolaZ a écrit :
> >Having said that, I think you should not have too many problems
> >compiling a 4.x kernel with glibc-2.19 (the version you find in
> >Jessie)
> 
> The kernel doesn't make any call to the glibc; it is the
> opposite: when running the new kernel, the userland invokes the
> glibc all the time, and this glibc makes system-calls to the new
> kernel, and there are some changes in the system-calls from kernel
> version to kernel version. This is why the libc must be recompiled
> with the proper kernel headers.
> 

Well, glibc shoult be retro-compatible, so this should be needed only
if your applications are going to use those "new" syscalls (if any,
since most of the times the updates in the glibc are reduced to flags
and options to existing syscalls).

If you need to recompile the kernel only because of a missing/newer
module, you might not need to upgrade your glibc at all, especially
since all your applications already work fine with the glibc you
have... :)

Again, this is valid unless your application requires a specific
version of glibc to work correctly. 

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
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Re: [DNG] elisp

[Rainer Weikusat]

Rainer Weikusat  writes:
> Hendrik Boom  writes:
>> On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 08:40:37PM +0100, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
>
> [same as below but worded differently]
>
>>> 
>>> ... and what the Lisp 1.5 FUNCTION was about was to enable solving the
>>> so-called 'upward funarg problem': Assuming a function is returned
>>> (passed upward) when evaluating an expression and later activated in a
>>> different context, what are free variables used by the returned function
>>> supposed to refer to, the values they had at the time when the function
>>> was defined or the values they had when the function is activated? Eg,
>>> assuming this code,
>>
>> And by wrapping FUNCTION around every lambda-expression (which I did in 
>> those days) you oachieve lexical scoping.
>
> By doing that, one achieves capturing the current, dynamic environment,
> IOW, turning the returned function into a closure. But that's (as I
> already wrote) something different from 'lexical scoping'.

[please see original for more detailed explanation]

A quickly done example implementation (in Perl) how to create closures
in an entirely dynamically scoped environment utilizling a global
association list to associate names with values:

---
our $a_list;

sub bind_var
{
$a_list = [[@_], $a_list];
}

sub get_var
{
my ($cur, $pair);

$cur = $a_list;
while ($cur) {
$pair = $cur->[0];
return $pair->[1] if $_[0] eq $pair->[0];

$cur = $cur->[1];
}

return;
}

sub call
{
local $a_list = $a_list;
my $fnc;

$fnc = shift;
if (ref($fnc) eq 'ARRAY') {
$a_list = $fnc->[0];
$fnc = $fnc->[1];
}

return $fnc->(@_);
}

sub function
{
return [$a_list, $_[0]];
}

sub xp1
{
return 1 + get_var('x');
}

sub cxp1
{
call(\);
}

sub one_more
{
bind_var('x', $_[0]);
return call(\, \);
}

bind_var('x', 15);

my $closure = call(\_more, 5);

print(call(\), "\n");
print(call($closure), "\n");
---

NB: This reflects my understaning how the LISP 1.5 implementation
probably worked in this respect. That's something I consider interesting
because it's about "programming". I have no idea onto which 'historical'
minefield I stepped this time.
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Re: [DNG] Install a new kernel

[KatolaZ]

On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 03:53:50PM +0100, Antonio Trkdz.tab wrote:
> Thank you for the info!
> 
> >It's Devuan, obvoiously.
> 
> Got it! :)
> 
> >I don't know whether you already are aware of it, but the best way to
> compile a vanilla kernel on Debian/Devuas is through using
> kernel-package, which compiles the kernel and produces a
> ready-to-install .deb package.
> 
> Yeah, you mentioned that in one of those early posts I was referring to.
> It looks the easiest solution, configuration issues apart
> 

Well, I would start from an existing kernel configuration, instead
than from scratch. You might want to start with a:

  $ make oldconfig

and after that give a:

  $ make menuconfig

and configure whatever option you need. I am sure there might be
better, fancier, more modern ways of doing the same thing nowadays,
and there are also X-, QT-, and GTK-based configuration tools, but for
a reason or another I got stuck with what I learned a few years ago,
and it has always worked fine for me.

My2Cents

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] elisp

[Rainer Weikusat]

Hendrik Boom  writes:
> On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 03:22:01PM +0100, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
>
>> 
>>  The LISP "alist" implementation is, as we noted earlier, an
>>  example of the "deep access" approach". The "alist" contains
>>  pointers to previous values of all bound variables together with
>>  the variable names. The name of the variable appears on the left
>>  side of a pair, and the value of the variable on the right side.
>> 
>>  [ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/pdf/AIM-199.pdf,
>>  p. 5]
>> 
>> [...] when one transmits a functional argument f which is to be
>> evaluated in its binding environment, then one uses FUNCTION(f)
>> instead of QUOTE(f). [...] The result of FUNCTION will be a
>> structure which not only contains a reference to the function f
>> but also contains a pointer to the binding environment. Thus at
>> the FUNARG's activation time we will be able to use the pointer
>> to restore the environment to the proper place.
>> 
>> [...]
>> 
>> In the "alist implementation, this process is even easier,
>> because the save pointer is made the current "alist", and we are
>> done because the values of free variables will be obtained from
>> the "alist" which contains the binding environment.
>> [p. 7, 8]
>
> If you're using alists, lexical scoping is more efficient 
> than dynamic scoping, because you won't be searching lond association 
> lists all the time.

I quoted this to provide a reference for the explanation which came
above it. I don't quite understand how you statement would apply to
that.
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[DNG] Logout problem

[uhtlmk]

Thanks to Ozi i got two desktop independent logout/hibernate tools which
generally work fine (cb-exit and oblogout). But i have a problem when i
try the suspend/restart commands:

I get this error msg:

---
Error org.freedesktop.UPower.GeneralError: not authorized
---

The command in the above tools is:

dbus-send --system
--print-reply--dest="org.freedesktop.UPower" /org/freedesktop/UPower
org.freedesktop.UPower.Suspend 


I googled and i found this:

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=141337

and this:

http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?t=114412

But i do not see, how to applicate the arch wiki solution to me
("Remove ck-launch-session from xinitrc, it's not needed any more and
the problem was because two sessions were started simultaneously, one
of which was inactive.") I've no .xinitrc (?)

Thanks in advance for any help.

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Re: [DNG] Install a new kernel

[Antonio Trkdz.tab]

Thank you for the info!

>It's Devuan, obvoiously.

Got it! :)

>I don't know whether you already are aware of it, but the best way to
compile a vanilla kernel on Debian/Devuas is through using
kernel-package, which compiles the kernel and produces a
ready-to-install .deb package.

Yeah, you mentioned that in one of those early posts I was referring to.
It looks the easiest solution, configuration issues apart

Antonio




On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 3:44 PM, Didier Kryn  wrote:

> Le 25/05/2016 16:25, Antonio Trkdz.tab a écrit :
>
>> Thank you Didier and Urban.
>>
>> >I think you can compile your kernel with any version of gcc 3, 4 or 5,
>> but take care of the C library. The libc used by your OS (ie glibc) must be
>> compiled with the kernel headers for the kernel version it runs on.
>>
>> So to be clear...if I download the sources and I compile them with the
>> tools actually on my system, do I need the relative linux-headers package?
>> building the modules will be OK ?
>>
>
> You will need the glibc for that kernel. If the glibc doesn't match
> the kernel version, you may experience errors in some applications, because
> the interface to some system calls may have changed.
>
> Some applications you may want to compile may need the kernel headers.
>
> Didier
>
>
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Re: [DNG] Install a new kernel

[Irrwahn]

On Wed, 25 May 2016 15:25:56 +0100, Antonio Trkdz.tab wrote:

> Now that I think of it, I got rid of libsystemd0 by having gvfs and dbus 
> installed from angband repos, might it be that I need to reinstall some 
> packages from there, but ascii repo (it will take a bit of system 
> pinning,though)?

I see. Yes, if you want gvfs you'd currently need to 
rely on angband[1]. For dbus the Devuan version should 
be fine — ­at least it is here. 
 
> In a previous discussion Hendrick Boom suggested it as an easy solution, but 
> do you recommend having mixed source (ascii/jessie)? I am afraid I could mess 
> up my system regretfully in the long runeven if only for the kernel...

Well, I am not one of the purists, and on my personal 
desktop I am willing to take some risks, as I usually 
know how to weasel my way out of potential trouble. 
(My system is roughly 97% Ascii, 1% Jessie, 1% Ceres, 
1% angband-nosystemd, and it currently feels like the 
most stable De??an system I ever ran since Squeeze.)

But yes, you can certainly mess up your system in 
oh-so-many ways. But IMHO not as bad as by installing 
systemDebian Jessie. It all depends on how much risk 
you accept, and backups have always been a Good Idea™. 

Last not least, I'd never do this while _not_ at home, 
IOW on some sort of production or workplace machine.


[1] My current angband-nosystemd list encompasses: 
cups, gvfs, pulse, openssh, udisks2.

Regards
Urban

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Re: [DNG] Install a new kernel

[Didier Kryn]

Le 25/05/2016 16:38, KatolaZ a écrit :

Having said that, I think you should not have too many problems
compiling a 4.x kernel with glibc-2.19 (the version you find in
Jessie)


The kernel doesn't make any call to the glibc; it is the opposite: 
when running the new kernel, the userland invokes the glibc all the 
time, and this glibc makes system-calls to the new kernel, and there are 
some changes in the system-calls from kernel version to kernel version. 
This is why the libc must be recompiled with the proper kernel headers.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] Install a new kernel

[Didier Kryn]

Le 25/05/2016 16:25, Antonio Trkdz.tab a écrit :

Thank you Didier and Urban.

>I think you can compile your kernel with any version of gcc 3, 4 or 5, but take care of the C 
library. The libc used by your OS (ie glibc) must be compiled with the 
kernel headers for the kernel version it runs on.


So to be clear...if I download the sources and I compile them with the 
tools actually on my system, do I need the relative linux-headers package?

building the modules will be OK ?


You will need the glibc for that kernel. If the glibc doesn't match 
the kernel version, you may experience errors in some applications, 
because the interface to some system calls may have changed.


Some applications you may want to compile may need the kernel headers.

Didier

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Re: [DNG] elisp

[Hendrik Boom]

On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 03:22:01PM +0100, Rainer Weikusat wrote:

> 
>   The LISP "alist" implementation is, as we noted earlier, an
>   example of the "deep access" approach". The "alist" contains
>   pointers to previous values of all bound variables together with
>   the variable names. The name of the variable appears on the left
>   side of a pair, and the value of the variable on the right side.
> 
>   [ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/pdf/AIM-199.pdf,
>   p. 5]
> 
> [...] when one transmits a functional argument f which is to be
> evaluated in its binding environment, then one uses FUNCTION(f)
> instead of QUOTE(f). [...] The result of FUNCTION will be a
> structure which not only contains a reference to the function f
> but also contains a pointer to the binding environment. Thus at
> the FUNARG's activation time we will be able to use the pointer
> to restore the environment to the proper place.
> 
> [...]
> 
> In the "alist implementation, this process is even easier,
> because the save pointer is made the current "alist", and we are
> done because the values of free variables will be obtained from
> the "alist" which contains the binding environment.
> [p. 7, 8]

If you're using alists, lexical scoping is more efficient 
than dynamic scoping, because you won't be searching lond association 
lists all the time.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Install a new kernel

[KatolaZ]

On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 03:38:11PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote:

[cut]

> 
> I don't know whether you already are aware of it, but the best way to
> compile a vanilla kernel on Debian/Devuas is through using
 ^^

It's Devuan, obvoiously.

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
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[DNG] Pulseaudio ...

[uhtlmk]

Is pulseaudio necessary? As i understand it (and as i remember), it
shouldn't be needed (in lubuntu at least in former times) it was not
installed ... (?) But it's a long time i was away from Debian ...
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Re: [DNG] Install a new kernel

[KatolaZ]

On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 03:25:56PM +0100, Antonio Trkdz.tab wrote:

[cut]

> 
> In a previous discussion Hendrick Boom suggested it as an easy solution,
> but do you recommend having mixed source (ascii/jessie)? I am afraid I
> could mess up my system regretfully in the long runeven if only for the
> kernel...
> 

Mixing repositories is always a risky thing, unless you know exactly
what you are up to and how to get out of trouble, if trouble happens.

Having said that, I think you should not have too many problems
compiling a 4.x kernel with glibc-2.19 (the version you find in
Jessie). It is important that the kernel and glibc use the same ABI,
but this seems to be the case. You might miss the support for some
exceptionally new syscalls or options to syscalls if your glibc is too
old wrt the version of the kernel you want to use, but apart from that
you should be able to compile without problems.

I don't know whether you already are aware of it, but the best way to
compile a vanilla kernel on Debian/Devuas is through using
kernel-package, which compiles the kernel and produces a
ready-to-install .deb package.

HND

KatolaZ

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[DNG] about fglrx (especially to Irrwahn)

[uhtlmk]

Hi. Indeed upgrading my system in some way i lost fglrx, and now, when
i try to reinstall it from the repositories i'm getting that there is
no fglrx driver. When i reactivate the Jessie repositories, the driver
is there but when i try to install it, synaptic or apt-get lament that
fglrx depends on xorg-video-abi- 19 (or 18 or 17 ...) but that they are
not to be installed. Now, xorg-video-abi should be there with xorg-core
which is installed.

I'd like to solve this problem without having to do a downgrade (= a
complete reinstall of Jessie) ... ? The overheating of this samsung
(with the free ati driver) is a serious problem, making it not really
useable ... May be there is another way to reduce overheating other
than the non-free catalyst driver?

Thanks a lot in advance!
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Re: [DNG] elisp

[Rainer Weikusat]

Hendrik Boom  writes:
> On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 08:40:37PM +0100, Rainer Weikusat wrote:

[same as below but worded differently]

>> 
>> ... and what the Lisp 1.5 FUNCTION was about was to enable solving the
>> so-called 'upward funarg problem': Assuming a function is returned
>> (passed upward) when evaluating an expression and later activated in a
>> different context, what are free variables used by the returned function
>> supposed to refer to, the values they had at the time when the function
>> was defined or the values they had when the function is activated? Eg,
>> assuming this code,
>
> And by wrapping FUNCTION around every lambda-expression (which I did in 
> those days) you oachieve lexical scoping.

By doing that, one achieves capturing the current, dynamic environment,
IOW, turning the returned function into a closure. But that's (as I
already wrote) something different from 'lexical scoping'. I don't have
access to anything where I could execute that but the following
(contrived) example ought to show the difference:

-
(defun 1+x () (1+ x))

(defun one-more (v)
(let
((x v))
(lambda () (1+x

(setq five (one-more 4))
(setq x 15)

(funcall five)
--

In a purely dynamically scoped environment, this will return 16. In a
dynamically scoped environment with support for closures, it would
return 5 as the (1+x) would be executed in an environment where x was
dynamically bound to 5. If (let ...) would create a lexically scoped
binding, the return value would again be 16 because the effect of the
let wouldn't be visible to 1+x.

As far as I could gather from availabe literature[*], LISP 1.5 used an
a-list for binding symbols to values. This means the let executed as
part of the

(one-more 4)

would put a

(x . 4)

onto this a-list. A pointer to that would be saved in the 'closure
object'. The later

(setq x 15)

would create an a-list

(x . 15)

but it would then be changed to the stored value during execution of
five.

[*]

The LISP "alist" implementation is, as we noted earlier, an
example of the "deep access" approach". The "alist" contains
pointers to previous values of all bound variables together with
the variable names. The name of the variable appears on the left
side of a pair, and the value of the variable on the right side.

[ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/pdf/AIM-199.pdf,
p. 5]

[...] when one transmits a functional argument f which is to be
evaluated in its binding environment, then one uses FUNCTION(f)
instead of QUOTE(f). [...] The result of FUNCTION will be a
structure which not only contains a reference to the function f
but also contains a pointer to the binding environment. Thus at
the FUNARG's activation time we will be able to use the pointer
to restore the environment to the proper place.

[...]

In the "alist implementation, this process is even easier,
because the save pointer is made the current "alist", and we are
done because the values of free variables will be obtained from
the "alist" which contains the binding environment.
[p. 7, 8]
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Re: [DNG] Install a new kernel

[Antonio Trkdz.tab]

Thank you Didier and Urban.

>I think you can compile your kernel with any version of gcc 3, 4 or 5, but
take care of the C library. The libc used by your OS (ie glibc) must be
compiled with the kernel headers for the kernel version it runs on.

So to be clear...if I download the sources and I compile them with the
tools actually on my system, do I need the relative linux-headers package?
building the modules will be OK ?

>Assuming you are using apt-get, did you try installing with
the --no-install-recommends option?

Your assumption is right and I have the recommends disabled in
preferences.d (as per chillfan guide)

Now that I think of it, I got rid of libsystemd0 by having gvfs and dbus
installed from angband repos, might it be that I need to reinstall some
packages from there, but ascii repo (it will take a bit of system
pinning,though)?

In a previous discussion Hendrick Boom suggested it as an easy solution,
but do you recommend having mixed source (ascii/jessie)? I am afraid I
could mess up my system regretfully in the long runeven if only for the
kernel...

Antonio.
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Re: [DNG] Request for Removal of slim package from Devuan

[Jaromil]

On Wed, 25 May 2016, Dima Krasner wrote:

>slim is far from perfect, that's true. However, "it works" and
>LightDM can use both ConsoleKit and logind in the version
>packaged in Jessie, but prefers logind. Other DMs have a hard
>dependency on logind, or will in the future. We cannot rely on
>LightDM, in the long term.  Currently, I don't see a longterm
>solution to this problem, other than maintaining slim or
>switching to MDM.

ok. well MDM seems very good and Clement was with us back in the early
days, for sure he is not a systemd fanatic, I doubt he will put an
hard dependency on it.

worth trying and perhaps maintaining https://github.com/linuxmint/mdm


ciao
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Re: [DNG] Request for Removal of slim package from Devuan

[Irrwahn]

On Wed, 25 May 2016 15:11:20 +0200, Jaromil wrote:
[...]
> I don't exclude adopting the package with Devuan becoming upstream
> 
> but are we 100% sure that there are no other alternatives out there,

FWIW, below is the trimmed-down version of a list I  
shamelessly ripped from: 
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/display_manager 

I edited out the ones I already know are too bloated.
I did not do any research on the remaining ones, nor 
have I used any of them in the past!

| List of display managers
| 
| Console
| 
| CDM — Ultra-minimalistic, yet full-featured login manager written in Bash.
| Console TDM — Extension for xinit written in pure Bash.
| nodm — Minimalistic display manager for automatic logins.
| 
| Graphical
| 
| LXDM — LXDE display manager. Can be used independent of the LXDE desktop 
environment.
| XDM — X display manager with support for XDMCP, host chooser.


> nor that lightdm can be tamed to a more minimal set of dependencies?
[...]

I /suspect/(!) it's not so much about lightdm itself, 
but more about the gtl-greeter. I wonder how much effort 
it be to "tame" that, or even replace it with a more 
minimalist approach.

Regards
Urban


 
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Re: [DNG] Request for Removal of slim package from Devuan

[Jaromil]

On Wed, 25 May 2016, Irrwahn wrote:

> On Wed, 25 May 2016 12:08:12 +0200, Florian Zieboll wrote:
> > On Tue, 24 May 2016 23:07:33 +0200
> > Irrwahn  wrote:
> > 
> >> In my humble opinion a quality distribution like Devuan 
> >> should not show a potential weakness at such a crucial 
> >> spot by shipping a package in questionable condition. 
> > 
> > 
> > Hallo Irrwahn,
> > 
> > in an earlier mail you wrote regarding slim:
> > 
> > | Subject: Re: [DNG] How to change default session
> > | Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 23:14:11 +0200
> > |
> > | (...) plus there were some other more severe problems with it (if 
> > | my memory serves me right
> > 
> > Can you elaborate on this? 
> 
> One specific thing I recall is slim leaking memory on each 
> login cycle. That might not sound dramatic per se (given the 
> amount of RAM present in even tiny machines today), but in 
> my experience is usually the symptom of an underlying more 
> severe problem or design flaw. And, it can very well be used 
> as an attack vector.

I don't exclude adopting the package with Devuan becoming upstream

but are we 100% sure that there are no other alternatives out there,
nor that lightdm can be tamed to a more minimal set of dependencies?

I would like to have an opinion from Dimkr on these regards before
proceeding with any decision.



ciao

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Re: [DNG] Install a new kernel

[Irrwahn]

On Wed, 25 May 2016 13:49:23 +0100, Antonio Trkdz.tab wrote:
[...]
> I had a look at installing the 4.5 kernel from ascii, but it pulls a lot o 
> dipendences, including libsystemd0 (again)
[...]

This is odd. (FWIW, I'm writing from an Ascii installation 
with the stock 4.5 kernel, and no libsystemd0 here.)

Assuming you are using apt-get, did you try installing with 
the --no-install-recommends option?

HTH, regards
Urban


 
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Re: [DNG] Install a new kernel

[Didier Kryn]

Le 25/05/2016 14:49, Antonio Trkdz.tab a écrit :

Can I compile the 4.1 without having to get the gcc4.9 compiler?


I think you can compile your kernel with any version of gcc 3, 4 or 
5, but take care of the C library. The libc used by your OS (ie glibc) 
must be compiled with the kernel headers for the kernel version it runs on.


Didier

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[DNG] Install a new kernel

[Antonio Trkdz.tab]

Hi All,

I didn't want to resuscitate old discussions, so I am writing a new one.

I am actually using Nvidia drivers from jessie-backports, but I would like
to try nouveau drivers for my Nvidia card to get rid of some proprietary
blobs...

With current kernel in stable(3.16), nouveau don't support my card (GTX
750).
I read somewhere that model is supported from kernel 4.1 and on.

I had a look at installing the 4.5 kernel from ascii, but it pulls a lot o
dipendences, including libsystemd0 (again), and I would really avoid to
run a mixed sources system, if I can

Another thing I had a small attempt at was to pull the kernel
4.3.05(ish)-libre from gnuinos, but for some reason the repository listed
in the web page didn't work in my hands.

I am also keen on compiling a new one myself (like I was used on gentoo
some time ago), but I never packaged it the debian way.

So, my doubts are:
Can I compile the 4.1 without having to get the gcc4.9 compiler?
Do you suggest to compile the latest sources (4.5 I think)?
in this case would I need more or less the same dependences that the mixed
sources solution above was asking me to get?

Can you suggest a lazier solution (like pre-compiled packages)?

Thank you!

Antonio
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Re: [DNG] Evince

[aitor_czr]

Hi all,

El 25/05/16 a las 10:50, Daniel Reurich  escribió:

Hi,

Sorry for hooking back an earlier part of this thread, but I turned back
to xpdf a while back as it was the only pdf viewer that I found produces
consistently good and correct rendering results. It can print too. The
biggest problem is it is way too ugly. If we could wrap a nicer
interface around it, then I think it would be a master stroke.

Regards,
 Daniel.


On 24 May 2016 5:49:13 AM NZST, Jaromil  wrote:

 On Mon, 23 May 2016, Steve Litt wrote:

 But Evince had one thing mupdf doesn't: A print function. A lot
 of times a PDF that won't print right just by saying lpr -P
 myprinter mypdf.pdf will print just fine if printed from Evince.


 yep, that kept me stuck with evince all this time and until now. hence
 my enthusiasm for Atril. sorry mupdf but... I have no use for a PDF
 viewer that can't print. Else I'd just use Emacs for that too ;^)
 


Two years ago i begun working in a PDFeditor using the libraries of the 
Haru project:


http://libharu.sourceforge.net/

and the pdftk tools. I added UTF-8 support to the .deb packages of 
libhpdf (haru). That project allowed you to insert text and logos... to 
draw lines... in a pdf with X number of pages. There were no many 
tipographic fonts compatible with UTF-8 in haru, but DejaVuSans was one 
of them.


Will still immature, I don't want to share the code. For the time being :)

Cheers,

  Aitor.
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Re: [DNG] Persistent apt-file error

[Irrwahn]

On Wed, 25 May 2016 12:28:22 +0200, Jaromil wrote:
> On Wed, 25 May 2016, Irrwahn wrote:
> 
>> Hello DNG,
>>
>> has anybody else experienced problems using the 
>> apt-file utility recently? 
> 
> yes, it is a known bug.
> 
> it is documented in an issue on Amprolla on our gitlab.
> 
> Amprolla is undergoing a major maintainance and Nextime is busy
> setting up a new bigger server for packages.devuan.org (thanks to the
> donations!). After that, Amprolla should receive some fixes and among
> them this one to make apt-file work.
> 
> https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/amprolla/issues/11

Thanks, Jaromil, for clearing that up.

> p.s. in general is good to use issues on gitlab for reports and most
> importantly to look if an issue exists already. this one comes out
> from a search of 'apt-file'

Well, I certainly would have done so, if it even had occurred to 
me, that it might be related to Amprolla (or the repos in general) 
in the first place. I was merely thinking I botched something on 
my side. :)

Thanks again, regards
Urban

 
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Re: [DNG] Request for Removal of slim package from Devuan

[Irrwahn]

On Wed, 25 May 2016 12:08:12 +0200, Florian Zieboll wrote:
> On Tue, 24 May 2016 23:07:33 +0200
> Irrwahn  wrote:
> 
>> In my humble opinion a quality distribution like Devuan 
>> should not show a potential weakness at such a crucial 
>> spot by shipping a package in questionable condition. 
> 
> 
> Hallo Irrwahn,
> 
> in an earlier mail you wrote regarding slim:
> 
> | Subject: Re: [DNG] How to change default session
> | Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 23:14:11 +0200
> |
> | (...) plus there were some other more severe problems with it (if 
> | my memory serves me right
> 
> Can you elaborate on this? 

One specific thing I recall is slim leaking memory on each 
login cycle. That might not sound dramatic per se (given the 
amount of RAM present in even tiny machines today), but in 
my experience is usually the symptom of an underlying more 
severe problem or design flaw. And, it can very well be used 
as an attack vector.

> I remember strange behavior on my PC (random
> swallowing of approx. 30-50% of the characters typed on tty1 => login
> ~impossible on tty1) a few years ago, definitely related to slim. IIRC,
> at that time probably somewhat paranoid me didn't troubleshoot (besides
> the usual websearch magic) this any further but quietly switched over to
> lightdm to avoid going even more crazy ;)
> 
> This is not meant to be about retroactively solving a no longer
> reproducible bug, just my two trade beads worth of objective experience
> with slim, plus some curiosity.

Just out of curiosity, I downloaded the slim source package 
and built the poor thing. Now I wish I had not, because 
compiler diagnostics like that:

/tmp/slim-1.3.6/app.cpp:478:26: warning: ‘pw’ may be used uninitialized in this 
function [-Wmaybe-uninitialized]
   correct = pw->pw_passwd;

are not exactly what I call confidence-inspiring. And 
definitely not something I want to see while building a login 
manager! 

Sure, it *could* be just the usual gcc noise, but to tell,  
one would have to dig in the code and confirm. And than 
*bloody* *fix* it, for Ritchie's sake, and be it only to 
silence a gratuitous warning to make life easier for the next 
person to build the thing!

Sorry for getting all worked up, but things like that really 
irritate me. What trust shall I put in an author who doesn't 
even seem to care, when the compiler already has him by the 
balls?

Regards
Urban

 
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Re: [DNG] Persistent apt-file error

[Jaromil]

On Wed, 25 May 2016, Irrwahn wrote:

> Hello DNG,
> 
> has anybody else experienced problems using the 
> apt-file utility recently? 

yes, it is a known bug.

it is documented in an issue on Amprolla on our gitlab.

Amprolla is undergoing a major maintainance and Nextime is busy
setting up a new bigger server for packages.devuan.org (thanks to the
donations!). After that, Amprolla should receive some fixes and among
them this one to make apt-file work.

https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/amprolla/issues/11

ciao

p.s. in general is good to use issues on gitlab for reports and most
importantly to look if an issue exists already. this one comes out
from a search of 'apt-file'

p.p.s. YES I need to update financial report, doing this ASAP
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[DNG] Persistent apt-file error

[Irrwahn]

Hello DNG,

has anybody else experienced problems using the 
apt-file utility recently? 

Whatever I try, I always get:

  # apt-file search 
  E: The cache is empty. You need to run "apt update" first.

Of course I followed the hint, but to no avail.

I tried this as both normal user and as root, on my 
Franken-Jesscii desktop, a fresh Jessie beta1 VM, and 
an Ascii VM. So, after six attempts I'm now stumped!
I am pretty sure I have successfully used the apt-file 
utility in the past, though that's been a while.

So, if someone has experienced similar problems, or has 
any idea what to try next, I'd really appreciate some 
input.

Thanks in advance, best regards
Urban

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Re: [DNG] Request for Removal of slim package from Devuan

[Florian Zieboll]

On Tue, 24 May 2016 23:07:33 +0200
Irrwahn  wrote:

> In my humble opinion a quality distribution like Devuan 
> should not show a potential weakness at such a crucial 
> spot by shipping a package in questionable condition. 


Hallo Irrwahn,

in an earlier mail you wrote regarding slim:

| Subject: Re: [DNG] How to change default session
| Date: Mon, 23 May 2016 23:14:11 +0200
|
| (...) plus there were some other more severe problems with it (if 
| my memory serves me right

Can you elaborate on this? I remember strange behavior on my PC (random
swallowing of approx. 30-50% of the characters typed on tty1 => login
~impossible on tty1) a few years ago, definitely related to slim. IIRC,
at that time probably somewhat paranoid me didn't troubleshoot (besides
the usual websearch magic) this any further but quietly switched over to
lightdm to avoid going even more crazy ;)

This is not meant to be about retroactively solving a no longer
reproducible bug, just my two trade beads worth of objective experience
with slim, plus some curiosity.

Florian

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Re: [DNG] Configure Xterm

[Didier Kryn]

Le 24/05/2016 23:04, emnin...@riseup.net a écrit :

I would like to have in the terminal (i use xterm), directories shown
not only with a different colour (i managed that) but also with final
slash (i liked that in some bsd and in slackware), e.g.:

~/.bogofilter/
~/.claws-mail/

etc. Someone knows by chance how to set that in .Xresources?



I guess you mean bash setting. Add the following line to your ~/.bashrc

alias ls='ls -F --color=auto'

Didier

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Re: [DNG] Making sense of C pointer syntax.

[aitor_czr]

Hi Edward,

El 29/03/16 a las 00:58, Edward Bartolo  escribió:

I found using the return value of a function makes code much more
>readable and probably more reliable. Multiple return values can be
>encapsulated inside a structure which would be returned by a function.
>I used this construct in simple-netaid-lightweight which avoids the
>use of GtkBuilder.
>
>Edward


Building your simple-netaid-lightweight, this is what i get:


aitor@localhost:~/simple-netaid-lightweight$ make
rm -f sn-lightweight
gcc -Iinclude `pkg-config --libs --cflags gtk+-2.0` -c src/auxiliaries.c 
src/signal_functions.c src/main_gui.c src/dialog_gui.c rc/sn-lightweight.c

mv *.o obj/
mv: el objetivo «obj/» no es un directorio
Makefile:16: recipe for target 'compile-objs' failed
make: *** [compile-objs] Error 1



So, you need to modify the Makefile to something like this:

CC=gcc
CFLAGS=-Iinclude
GTK2FLAGS=`pkg-config --libs --cflags gtk+-2.0`
D=src
OBJ=obj

src0=auxiliaries.c signal_functions.c main_gui.c
src1=dialog_gui.c sn-lightweight.c

SOURCEFILES=$(addprefix $(D)/, $(src0) $(src1))
OBJFILES=$(addprefix $(OBJ)/, $(src0:.c=.o) $(src1:.c=.o))

all: clean compile-objs sn-lightweight

compile-objs:
$(CC) $(CFLAGS) $(GTK2FLAGS) -c $(SOURCEFILES)
mkdir obj
mv *.o obj/

sn-lightweight:
$(CC) $(CFLAGS) $(GTK2FLAGS) -o sn-lightweight $(OBJFILES)

clean:
rm -f sn-lightweight

After doing this change, it works :)

Cheers,

  Aitor.

[*] Added "mkdir obj" line.



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Re: [DNG] Evince

[Didier Kryn]

Le 24/05/2016 12:50, Jaromil a écrit :

> >>Emacs is a somewhat old-fashioned/ traditional[*] Lisp implemenation

> >[*] It doesn't support lexical scoping.
> >

>
>No idea what that means. I like emacs for text editing and don't use it
>for anything else.

in brief it means that is impossible to define the scope for a
function or variable. so if a function or variable has the same name
across the running instance, it will clash. one has in fact to use
prefixes or suffixes to distinguish. its quite self-defeating for
Emacs at this stage of development, but we can live with it.


You mean functions in elisp language?

Didier

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