Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

[Simon Walter]

On 07/19/2016 11:53 AM, Adam Borowski wrote:
...

All that talk about multiseat being important or even relevant today is IMO 
bullshit.

...

Oh the insolence. Amazing. "You're holding it wrong" comes to mind. 
There is this guy named Lennart who might agree with you.

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Brad Campbell (lists2...@fnarfbargle.com):

> Rick I completely understand that sentiment, and none of my servers
> have a GUI on them. I just "assumed" (yeah, my mistake) that display
> managers were used only on single user desktop machines.

Predominantly, to be sure.

In the mid 1990s, when I helped build a Linux-based Internet cafe in San
Francisco (which _of course_ is an unusual use-case), we had some
interesting problems with this.  Each of the Pentium Pro workstations on
the tables in the cafe ran xdm as display manager with a nice custom
image file as background to the login screen.  The workstations were all
NIS & NFS clients -- and each was used only by a single local user (cafe
customer) at a time.

Early on, we played around with restricting ability to shutdown and
reboot by changing what the 'ca' directive in /etc/inittab did --
because we were painfully aware that some customers would try to mess
with the machines.  This turned out to be a bad idea.

Basically, if you deprived some people of the ability to do painless local
console reboot, they'll be motivated to go pull the mains (AC) power
instead, with consequent greater risk of filesystem harm.  So, it proved
smarter to let 'em reboot if they were determined to do so.

The NFS/NIS master, a beefy EISA/VLB 486, was a different matter, and we
came up with a good solution.  The system box was upstairs in a locked
room, with long keyboard and video cables to the keyboard and monitor on
a table in the cafe.  Customers could login there (no X11) to change/set
their passwords only:  Their login shell permitted only that action.
Ctrl-Alt-Del was trapped and caused to do nothing.

We also deliberately set things up so that, if a customer found a way to
escalate privilege to root on any of the workstations, he/she would be
surprised to find himself/herself having -less- privilege than with a
regular user account.  E.g., the NFS mounts were all exported with
root-squash.  

Security guy Dan Farmer came to visit one day, did a bit of poking
around, and pronounced our security design 'sneaky' (meaning this as a
compliment).

-- 
Cheers,  « On donne des conseils, mais on ne 
Rick Moendonne point la sagesse d'en profiter. »
r...@linuxmafia.com -- La Rochefoucauld
McQ! (4x80)   
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

[Adam Borowski]

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 09:38:07AM +0800, Brad Campbell wrote:
> So all that rambling comes back to "why do I need to know my root password
> to halt or reboot the machine from the login screen?"

Because half a century ago you had plenty of users per machine.  Rebooting
obviously destroyed the work of everyone else, so it was something reserved
for trusted operators.  I believe such defaults are no longer appropriate.

Nowadays to find a regular person who doesn't own multiple computers, you
need to go to Africa or rural India.

I'd say it's safe to assume that a person authorized to login on the console
(either text or graphical) is supposed to be at least an operator, if not
the owner, of the machine.  For weird setups like a kiosk you need to
configure access anyway.  All that talk about multiseat being important
or even relevant today is IMO bullshit.

If you have physical access, you can pull the cord or press reset, period.
Attempts to "secure" SysRq met with outcry and changes were reverted, it's
enabled by default again.  So why not reboot/shutdown/suspend?

-- 
An imaginary friend squared is a real enemy.
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

[Brad Campbell]

On 19/07/16 10:43, Rick Moen wrote:

Quoting Brad Campbell (lists2...@fnarfbargle.com):


This is one I find interesting. I've never used an operating system
where it was required to know root credentials to halt or reboot the
machine from the login screen.


Remember, Unix is a multiuser operating system, and also one supporting
both local and remote users, who would be annoyed by someone deciding to
cut them off.



Rick I completely understand that sentiment, and none of my servers have 
a GUI on them. I just "assumed" (yeah, my mistake) that display managers 
were used only on single user desktop machines.


Windows is a special case, well just because Windows has always been a 
special case and it has taken Microsoft some 20 years to come to terms 
with a GUI-less server.


Regards,
Brad
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Brad Campbell (lists2...@fnarfbargle.com):

> This is one I find interesting. I've never used an operating system
> where it was required to know root credentials to halt or reboot the
> machine from the login screen.

Remember, Unix is a multiuser operating system, and also one supporting
both local and remote users, who would be annoyed by someone deciding to
cut them off.

Imagine a host with hundreds of simultaneous users, such as (say) a
shared ISP machine.  You would absolutely not want just anyone to be
able to shutdown or reboot the machine at will.  Tberefore, the
conventional solution to this problem is to require membership in a
bespoke group for shutdown/reboot rights.

That being said, although the Linux kernel (like those of other
Unix-type OSes) can intercept hardware reboot signals (like Ctrl-Alt-Del
on x86) and control/define what that does, generally speaking anyone
with physical console access can force reboot one way or another anyway.

-- 
Cheers,  « On donne des conseils, mais on ne 
Rick Moendonne point la sagesse d'en profiter. »
r...@linuxmafia.com -- La Rochefoucauld
McQ! (4x80)   
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

[Gregory Nowak]

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:07:01AM +0900, Simon Walter wrote:
> I am pretty sure it's trivial to install a different login manager
> if SLiM is not to your liking. Or has systemd crept into the rest of
> them?

No, lightdm is installable and systemd free on devuan. That along with
lightdm-gtk-greeter gives me a fully accessible devuan system,
including orca on the login screen, which slim doesn't do.

Greg


-- 
web site: http://www.gregn.net
gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc
skype: gregn1
(authorization required, add me to your contacts list first)
If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your contacts.

--
Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-mana...@eu.org
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

[Simon Walter]

On 07/19/2016 10:38 AM, Brad Campbell wrote:

On 19/07/16 00:37, Steve Litt wrote:

SPECIAL USERNAMES
For instance, to reboot the computer from the login screen, type in the
username "reboot" (without the quotes), then when asked for the
password put the root password, and it reboots.

...


This is one I find interesting. I've never used an operating system
where it was required to know root credentials to halt or reboot the
machine from the login screen. Certainly if the machine is logged in but
locked, unlocking is required first but on any of the other OS I use I
can simply shutdown or reboot unauthenticated

...

So all that rambling comes back to "why do I need to know my root
password to halt or reboot the machine from the login screen?"


Well, that question is probably best answered by the SLiM developers.

However, AFAICT the SLiM login manager is no longer maintained. If 
Devuan is using it as a default, I suggest someone maintain it and make 
these changes or we use a different login manager.


If someone here is maintaining, maybe we want to let the world know. 
Other OSes might need it.


I am pretty sure it's trivial to install a different login manager if 
SLiM is not to your liking. Or has systemd crept into the rest of them?


Simon
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

[Brad Campbell]

On 19/07/16 00:37, Steve Litt wrote:

Hi all,



SPECIAL USERNAMES

The login screen has no controls other than the input field. So how do
you reboot, halt or go to a console from the login screen? The answer
is, you use a special username.

For instance, to reboot the computer from the login screen, type in the
username "reboot" (without the quotes), then when asked for the
password put the root password, and it reboots. If you want to halt,
use the username "halt". To go to a console, use "console" without any
password. A little console appears, asking you for username and
password. When you exit the console via the exit command or Ctrl+d on
the console, you go back to the login screen.


This is one I find interesting. I've never used an operating system 
where it was required to know root credentials to halt or reboot the 
machine from the login screen. Certainly if the machine is logged in but 
locked, unlocking is required first but on any of the other OS I use I 
can simply shutdown or reboot unauthenticated.


A good example is my desktop. It's an iMac and it triple boots OSX, 
Windows & Linux. Now, it only gets rebooted every year or so for a 
kernel update or if I need to spark up OSX to test something specific.
If I reboot the machine and am not there to hold the magic keys required 
for it to boot to linux, it winds up at the OSX login screen. From there 
I can simply click reboot and away we go. Why should I need to know the 
root login to do that?


As for root logins on my machines. They all have 16 character randomly 
generated passwords that are all but impossible to remember. The only 
time I actually need a root password is if something catastrophic 
happens and I need to access the rescue console. Everything else is 
managed with sudo. When I do need the root password I can look it up in 
my password wallet. I've had to do that precisely 3 times in the last 6 
years.


So all that rambling comes back to "why do I need to know my root 
password to halt or reboot the machine from the login screen?"


Regards,
Brad



___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Open-RC on devuan - some questions

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 20:30:12 +0200
Jaromil  wrote:


> We want to avoid overlapping openrc scripts with sysvinit
> scripts. 

I can't even begin to imagine the mess with their scripts in any way
overlapped, commingled, interchangeable, etc. Eeeuu!

> This is the major reason to dismiss the dialogue with current
> maintainer in Debian and deciding to scratch that package entirely.

True! A second reason is that if a Devuan person created and maintained
a Devuan package, Debian couldn't pull the rug out from under us.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Open-RC on devuan - some questions

[emninger]

Am Mon, 18 Jul 2016 18:30:07 +
schrieb Jaromil :

Hi Jaromil!

> this is precisely what Parazyd has recommended to do, while looking
> into the plan to make a openrc package on ascii. we also have contact
> with genoo maintainers and good understanding of their approach.
> 
> from what I've seen so far, i think you can expect devuan ascii to
> have a proper (a'la gentoo) openrc setup offering flawless switch and
> even run in parallel.
> 
> We want to avoid overlapping openrc scripts with sysvinit
> scripts. This is the major reason to dismiss the dialogue with current
> maintainer in Debian and deciding to scratch that package entirely.

That's fantastic news. Please let me know, when and if this package is
available. Even if only in a testing circle, i'd be well willed to try
out (and eventually to help testing, if i can be useful ... (?) ).

Cheers!

PS. I know, Steve Litt does not like so much OpenRC, but me, for one and
as a simple user, i like it specifically from a user point of view
because it's so "linear" to use. 
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] with or without libsystemd0

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Hendrik Boom (hend...@topoi.pooq.com):
> On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 08:54:44AM -0400, fsmithred wrote:

> > Pretty cool trick. I tried it and got mixed results. I'm running without
> > libsystemd0 here, so I can't have gvfs-daemons. That means there's no
> > trash icon on the desktop and removable drives don't show up on the
> > desktop when they're plugged it.
> > 
> > With a dummy equivs libsystemd0, I get a trash icon that works, but the
> > removable drives don't show up on the desktop. When I remove the dummy
> > package and install the real libsystemd0, removables show up and
> > mount/eject work as expected.
> 
> So it does look as if libsystemd0  does do something.

That doesn't logically follow.  My guesstimate is that some GNOME
plumbing is checking for some library function before it offers
the user 'removable drives [...] on the desktop'.  For libsystemd0
library functions to _do_ anything reportedly requires systemd be
present to be reached below the library, i.e., the lib is just interface
glue.

If you really want to know for certain, read the calling and answering
source code.  (I won't bother, because I really have no interest at all
in GNOME, and prefer to avoid it.)

GNOME is a brittle dependency hairball.  Surely that fact is clear, if
nothing else is.

-- 
Cheers,  « On donne des conseils, mais on ne 
Rick Moendonne point la sagesse d'en profiter. »
r...@linuxmafia.com -- La Rochefoucauld
McQ! (4x80)   
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Open-RC on devuan - some questions

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 19:12:37 +0200
 wrote:

> Hi!
> 
> On the road to a viable jwm desktop in devuan, i am using/trying
> open-rc. In advance, my excuses if what follows is not sufficiently
> technical.
> 
> To the point: From Manjaro-OpenRC i knew openrc as a clean and logical
> system to manage daemons & processes. By far, from a user point of
> view, superior to sysvinit. Now, the transition from sysvinit to
> openrc in devuan is mostly painless. BUT: I'm under the impression in
> devuan/debian openrc works only as a kind of wrapper around sysvinit. 

The "wrapper around sysvinit" thing is a feature of OpenRC, not
Devuan/Debian's implementation thereof. A little more explanation...

What's commonly called an "init system" can be thought of as two
separate components:

1) PID1, the first program the kernel runs. PID1 does two things: fork
   off an init script, and circle around listening for signals.

2) Process manager. This runs the necessary background programs, and
   if it's about its business, enables you to interact with them and
   maybe even respawn them if they crash. The process manager is, or is
   run by, the rc file forked off by PID1.

The preceding two component model is more conceptual than real.
Although it perfectly describes the runit init system, it's not how s6
works, and it's completely different from systemd, which of course
isn't an init system at all but only contains one. I have no idea how
sysvinit is built internally.

The two component model is at least conceptually descriptive of
sysvinit. It has a PID1 which forks off an rc file that calls all the
stuff in /etc/rc.d/rc5.d or whatever. The stuff named in /etc/inittab
is respawnable, and I don't know whether it exists in PID1 or is passed
to the rc file.

OpenRC has only one component: The process manager. It has no PID1. The
easiest way to team it up with a PID1 is to use sysvinit as PID1,
because then you can start up respawnables from /etc/inittab. But you
can also PID1 OpenRC from Suckless Init, Felker Init, and who knows,
maybe even runit's PID1. 

So, OpenRC needs a PID1, sysvinit is by far its most used PID1, which
is why OpenRC might seem like a wrapper around sysvinit. And, as I
said, this is a property of OpenRC itself, not any distro's
implementation. Like you said, init scripts might be laid out totally
differently in different distros,but OpenRC distros all require a
separate PID1 (and almost always use sysvinit), because OpenRC has no
PID1 of its own.

I'm not an OpenRC fan. It appears not to be able to respawn (although
there's some question about this), its init scripts appear to be just
as huge and confusing as those of sysvinit, and its init scripts are
written in a language slightly different from /bin/bash or /bin/sh. My
view: If I'm going to take the trouble to replace sysvinit, I want
something substantially different: runit, Epoch, and maybe s6 or s6-rc
come to mind. runit and Epoch have amazingly tiny and simple run
scripts and process configs, respectively. Runit always respawns its
later processes, and Epoch gives you the choice to respawn any process
it runs. Epoch and runit have such simple process configs and run
scripts that a mere user can modify, troubleshooter or create them.


SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Open-RC on devuan - some questions

[Jaromil]

On Mon, 18 Jul 2016, emnin...@riseup.net wrote:

> 
> It would be nice to have openrc implemented as it is in gentoo or
> manjaro: with the to essential directories:

this is precisely what Parazyd has recommended to do, while looking
into the plan to make a openrc package on ascii. we also have contact
with genoo maintainers and good understanding of their approach.

from what I've seen so far, i think you can expect devuan ascii to
have a proper (a'la gentoo) openrc setup offering flawless switch and
even run in parallel.

We want to avoid overlapping openrc scripts with sysvinit
scripts. This is the major reason to dismiss the dialogue with current
maintainer in Debian and deciding to scratch that package entirely.


ciao

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

[DNG] Open-RC on devuan - some questions

[emninger]

Hi!

On the road to a viable jwm desktop in devuan, i am using/trying
open-rc. In advance, my excuses if what follows is not sufficiently
technical.

To the point: From Manjaro-OpenRC i knew openrc as a clean and logical
system to manage daemons & processes. By far, from a user point of
view, superior to sysvinit. Now, the transition from sysvinit to openrc
in devuan is mostly painless. BUT: I'm under the impression in
devuan/debian openrc works only as a kind of wrapper around sysvinit. 

An example: I installed a zram script (still when i had sysvinit as
init manager). Now, this script is configured to openrc in this way:

"rc-update add zram boot" (which adds the zram daemon to the boot level
to have it ready early; could be added also to default). Now, when i
remove it by "rc-update del zram boot" it is not even more present for
openrc - but nevertheless, it is still started at any reboot. For me,
that means, openrc is *NOT* the real init manager - at least in its
debian implementation.

It would be nice to have openrc implemented as it is in gentoo or
manjaro: with the to essential directories:

/etc/conf.d (where all the scripts for openrc are configured)
/etc/init.d (where the scripts that are configured in /etc/conf.d sit)

May be in that way, it would be also easier to use the existing scripts
in gentoo and arch/manjaro (maintained by artoo).

I ask here, because i know here are some competent openrc coders.

Thanks in advance for any pointer!
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

[DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

[Steve Litt]

Hi all,

Until documentation or on-screen instructions make this unnecessary,
this email serves to document various actions the user can perform
while on Devuan's login screen. The login screen is that screen that
asks for your username, and then after that, it asks for your password.
It typically is either green or purplish. Either way, it consists of a
slightly lighter and slightly darker version of its color, has two
broadly sweeping curves, and has in large lowercase letters the word
"login". It has an input field, and just above the input field, in
tiny black letters, is written the string "username".

The most usual way it's used is the user types in his username into the
input field, presses the Enter key, after which the tiny "username:"
changes to "password:". The user then types his password, hits Enter,
and if the username and password were correct, he is logged in.


CHANGING WINDOW MANAGER / DESKTOP ENVIRONMENT

If the user wants to change the window manager / desktop environment
(wmde) he will log into, he presses the F1 key to cycle through all the
installed wmde's, and stops when the desired wmde is written on the
screen.

This functionality has no memory. At every new login, without the F1
key, every user's wmde will be the default wmde, which is the one
specified at installation. There is no capacity to remember different
wmde's for different users: A user desiring a non-default WMDE simply
needs to remember to cycle through wmde's with the F1 key on every
login.


SPECIAL USERNAMES

The login screen has no controls other than the input field. So how do
you reboot, halt or go to a console from the login screen? The answer
is, you use a special username.

For instance, to reboot the computer from the login screen, type in the
username "reboot" (without the quotes), then when asked for the
password put the root password, and it reboots. If you want to halt,
use the username "halt". To go to a console, use "console" without any
password. A little console appears, asking you for username and
password. When you exit the console via the exit command or Ctrl+d on
the console, you go back to the login screen.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Larcenous mail threads.

[Hendrik Boom]

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 11:29:25PM +0900, Simon Walter wrote:
> On 07/18/2016 11:06 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> >On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 08:16:03AM +0200, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> >>Hi,
> >>
> >>Simon Walker wrote:
> >
> >>
> >><<
> >>Can you explain how a computer works to a child or perhaps a rubber duck?
> 
> >>You place a child at the same level as a rubber duck?! A child can
> >>understand provided any concepts used are within his/her mental age.
> >
> >So can a rubber duck understand any concepts within its mental age.
> >But none are.  That's the difference.
> >
> 
> I am distinguishing between the two. Obviously Edwardo does not understand
> English that well. Maybe I should thrown an "even" in there. However, the
> rubber duck is important. It's not a term I came up with, as I am sure many
> of you know. Though I would like propose a new term: shit programming. It
> happens on the toilet. AKA "the aha moment".

Explaining the plot to a rubber duck is one of the techniques fictino 
writers sometimes use when figuring out where a novel is going.  It's 
not about whether the duck understands,  It's about organising the 
writer's thoughts.

-- hendrikk
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Larcenous mail threads.

[Simon Walter]

On 07/18/2016 11:06 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 08:16:03AM +0200, Edward Bartolo wrote:

Hi,

Simon Walker wrote:




<<
Can you explain how a computer works to a child or perhaps a rubber duck?



You place a child at the same level as a rubber duck?! A child can
understand provided any concepts used are within his/her mental age.


So can a rubber duck understand any concepts within its mental age.
But none are.  That's the difference.



I am distinguishing between the two. Obviously Edwardo does not 
understand English that well. Maybe I should thrown an "even" in there. 
However, the rubber duck is important. It's not a term I came up with, 
as I am sure many of you know. Though I would like propose a new term: 
shit programming. It happens on the toilet. AKA "the aha moment".


Today I did no shit programming. It was just methodical and cyclic - 
incremental if you will.


Peace,

Simon
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Didier Kryn]

Le 18/07/2016 14:54, fsmithred a écrit :

With a dummy equivs libsystemd0, I get a trash icon that works, but the
removable drives don't show up on the desktop. When I remove the dummy
package and install the real libsystemd0, removables show up and
mount/eject work as expected.


I would consider a good thing to not have the crapy trash bin, but 
I definitely like to see the removable media and to be able to 
mount/umount them on mouse-click. gvfs is yet another Gnome stuff Xfce4 
depends on.


Didier

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Larcenous mail threads.

[Hendrik Boom]

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 08:16:03AM +0200, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Simon Walker wrote:

> 
> <<
> Can you explain how a computer works to a child or perhaps a rubber duck?
> >>
> You place a child at the same level as a rubber duck?! A child can
> understand provided any concepts used are within his/her mental age.

So can a rubber duck understand any concepts within its mental age.
But none are.  That's the difference.

-- hendrik :=)

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

[DNG] with or without libsystemd0

[Hendrik Boom]

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 08:54:44AM -0400, fsmithred wrote:
> On 07/16/2016 05:12 AM, Rick Moen wrote:
> > You probably wouldn't even like removing libsystemd0 entirely and
> > replacing it with an 'equivs' recipe, which could also be done if one
> > really, really, really were concerned.
> > 
> > But, for those interested in that technique, see:  'How To Satisfy
> > Debian Dependencies Without Installing The Stupid Package' on
> > http://shallowsky.com/blog/linux/install/blocking-deb-dependencies.html
> 
> 
> Pretty cool trick. I tried it and got mixed results. I'm running without
> libsystemd0 here, so I can't have gvfs-daemons. That means there's no
> trash icon on the desktop and removable drives don't show up on the
> desktop when they're plugged it.
> 
> With a dummy equivs libsystemd0, I get a trash icon that works, but the
> removable drives don't show up on the desktop. When I remove the dummy
> package and install the real libsystemd0, removables show up and
> mount/eject work as expected.

So it does look as if libsystemd0  does do something.

-- hendrik
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[fsmithred]

On 07/16/2016 05:12 AM, Rick Moen wrote:
> You probably wouldn't even like removing libsystemd0 entirely and
> replacing it with an 'equivs' recipe, which could also be done if one
> really, really, really were concerned.
> 
> But, for those interested in that technique, see:  'How To Satisfy
> Debian Dependencies Without Installing The Stupid Package' on
> http://shallowsky.com/blog/linux/install/blocking-deb-dependencies.html


Pretty cool trick. I tried it and got mixed results. I'm running without
libsystemd0 here, so I can't have gvfs-daemons. That means there's no
trash icon on the desktop and removable drives don't show up on the
desktop when they're plugged it.

With a dummy equivs libsystemd0, I get a trash icon that works, but the
removable drives don't show up on the desktop. When I remove the dummy
package and install the real libsystemd0, removables show up and
mount/eject work as expected.

I don't have time right now to complete the test, but I'd like to try Adam
Borowski's repackaged gvfs. I'm guessing it will work.

-fsr

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Help needed debugging MySQL install

[Simon Walter]

Thank you, Matt. I appreciate the feedback. I've filed a couple bugs 
against mysql-server and mariadb-server. Either they should depend on 
some syslog or they should their installation scripts should be written 
to detect a logger and function accordingly.


Hopefully someone will get a move on. If not, I've got gafer tape in 
place. Actually it's probably more like chewing gum...!


Cheers,

Simon

On 07/18/2016 08:11 PM, Matthew Melton wrote:

Replying to myself:

http://docs.slackware.com/howtos:databases:install_mariadb_on_slackware

Is probably the order I had to do things. Note the changing of permissions.

Whether this has any relevance to your issue or not I don't know.

I'll be under my rock if you wish to ignore me.

Matt


Sent from my iPhone

On 18 Jul 2016, at 11:57, Matthew Melton > wrote:



This sounds very familiar. Though I think I was using Slackware
installing from slack builds. My hand written notes say something
about mysql_install_db --user=...
Left the /var/lib/mysql/ with the wrong permissions.
Or something.
And something to do with running mysql_secure_installation instead.

Maybe that might help.

It's been a while. And due to the evidence of my handwriting I'm
afraid I appear to have been terribly, terribly, drunk.

Cheers

Matt

Sent from my iPhone

On 18 Jul 2016, at 01:36, Simon Walter > wrote:


On 07/18/2016 08:15 AM, Rick Moen wrote:

Quoting aitor_czr (aitor_...@gnuinos.org
):


> The substitute for MySQL is MariaDB :)

What you said.  ;->  MariaDB is a 100% compatible workalike
(binary drop-in replacement).
https://mariadb.com/kb/en/mariadb/mariadb-vs-mysql-compatibility/


Same installation bug(?) with mariadb.

bash /usr/bin/mysql_install_db --rpm --user=mysql --disable-log-bin
2>&1 | $ERR_LOGGER

I thought it would be the case. As it is drop-in replacemen, there is
not really any reason to re-write the package scripts. So I guess I
should report this to two package maintainers.

Thanks for reminding me of mariadb.

Simon
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org 
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Sent from my iPhone

On 18 Jul 2016, at 01:36, Simon Walter > wrote:


On 07/18/2016 08:15 AM, Rick Moen wrote:

Quoting aitor_czr (aitor_...@gnuinos.org
):


> The substitute for MySQL is MariaDB :)

What you said.  ;->  MariaDB is a 100% compatible workalike
(binary drop-in replacement).
https://mariadb.com/kb/en/mariadb/mariadb-vs-mysql-compatibility/


Same installation bug(?) with mariadb.

bash /usr/bin/mysql_install_db --rpm --user=mysql --disable-log-bin
2>&1 | $ERR_LOGGER

I thought it would be the case. As it is drop-in replacemen, there is
not really any reason to re-write the package scripts. So I guess I
should report this to two package maintainers.

Thanks for reminding me of mariadb.

Simon
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org 
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org 
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng



___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng


___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Help needed debugging MySQL install

[Matthew Melton]

Replying to myself: 

http://docs.slackware.com/howtos:databases:install_mariadb_on_slackware

Is probably the order I had to do things. Note the changing of permissions. 

Whether this has any relevance to your issue or not I don't know. 

I'll be under my rock if you wish to ignore me.

Matt


Sent from my iPhone

> On 18 Jul 2016, at 11:57, Matthew Melton  wrote:
> 
> 
> This sounds very familiar. Though I think I was using Slackware installing 
> from slack builds. My hand written notes say something about mysql_install_db 
> --user=...
> Left the /var/lib/mysql/ with the wrong permissions. 
> Or something. 
> And something to do with running mysql_secure_installation instead. 
> 
> Maybe that might help.
> 
> It's been a while. And due to the evidence of my handwriting I'm afraid I 
> appear to have been terribly, terribly, drunk.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Matt
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On 18 Jul 2016, at 01:36, Simon Walter  wrote:
> 
>>> On 07/18/2016 08:15 AM, Rick Moen wrote:
>>> Quoting aitor_czr (aitor_...@gnuinos.org):
>>> 
 > The substitute for MySQL is MariaDB :)
>>> What you said.  ;->  MariaDB is a 100% compatible workalike
>>> (binary drop-in replacement).
>>> https://mariadb.com/kb/en/mariadb/mariadb-vs-mysql-compatibility/
>> 
>> Same installation bug(?) with mariadb.
>> 
>> bash /usr/bin/mysql_install_db --rpm --user=mysql --disable-log-bin 2>&1 | 
>> $ERR_LOGGER
>> 
>> I thought it would be the case. As it is drop-in replacemen, there is not 
>> really any reason to re-write the package scripts. So I guess I should 
>> report this to two package maintainers.
>> 
>> Thanks for reminding me of mariadb.
>> 
>> Simon
>> ___
>> Dng mailing list
>> Dng@lists.dyne.org
>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 18 Jul 2016, at 01:36, Simon Walter  wrote:
>> 
>>> On 07/18/2016 08:15 AM, Rick Moen wrote:
>>> Quoting aitor_czr (aitor_...@gnuinos.org):
>>> 
 > The substitute for MySQL is MariaDB :)
>>> What you said.  ;->  MariaDB is a 100% compatible workalike
>>> (binary drop-in replacement).
>>> https://mariadb.com/kb/en/mariadb/mariadb-vs-mysql-compatibility/
>> 
>> Same installation bug(?) with mariadb.
>> 
>> bash /usr/bin/mysql_install_db --rpm --user=mysql --disable-log-bin 2>&1 | 
>> $ERR_LOGGER
>> 
>> I thought it would be the case. As it is drop-in replacemen, there is not 
>> really any reason to re-write the package scripts. So I guess I should 
>> report this to two package maintainers.
>> 
>> Thanks for reminding me of mariadb.
>> 
>> Simon
>> ___
>> Dng mailing list
>> Dng@lists.dyne.org
>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
> ___
> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Help needed debugging MySQL install

[Matthew Melton]

This sounds very familiar. Though I think I was using Slackware installing from 
slack builds. My hand written notes say something about mysql_install_db 
--user=...
Left the /var/lib/mysql/ with the wrong permissions. 
Or something. 
And something to do with running mysql_secure_installation instead. 

Maybe that might help.

It's been a while. And due to the evidence of my handwriting I'm afraid I 
appear to have been terribly, terribly, drunk.

Cheers

Matt

Sent from my iPhone

>> On 18 Jul 2016, at 01:36, Simon Walter  wrote:
>> 
>> On 07/18/2016 08:15 AM, Rick Moen wrote:
>> Quoting aitor_czr (aitor_...@gnuinos.org):
>> 
>>> > The substitute for MySQL is MariaDB :)
>> What you said.  ;->  MariaDB is a 100% compatible workalike
>> (binary drop-in replacement).
>> https://mariadb.com/kb/en/mariadb/mariadb-vs-mysql-compatibility/
> 
> Same installation bug(?) with mariadb.
> 
> bash /usr/bin/mysql_install_db --rpm --user=mysql --disable-log-bin 2>&1 | 
> $ERR_LOGGER
> 
> I thought it would be the case. As it is drop-in replacemen, there is not 
> really any reason to re-write the package scripts. So I guess I should report 
> this to two package maintainers.
> 
> Thanks for reminding me of mariadb.
> 
> Simon
> ___
> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Sent from my iPhone

> On 18 Jul 2016, at 01:36, Simon Walter  wrote:
> 
>> On 07/18/2016 08:15 AM, Rick Moen wrote:
>> Quoting aitor_czr (aitor_...@gnuinos.org):
>> 
>>> > The substitute for MySQL is MariaDB :)
>> What you said.  ;->  MariaDB is a 100% compatible workalike
>> (binary drop-in replacement).
>> https://mariadb.com/kb/en/mariadb/mariadb-vs-mysql-compatibility/
> 
> Same installation bug(?) with mariadb.
> 
> bash /usr/bin/mysql_install_db --rpm --user=mysql --disable-log-bin 2>&1 | 
> $ERR_LOGGER
> 
> I thought it would be the case. As it is drop-in replacemen, there is not 
> really any reason to re-write the package scripts. So I guess I should report 
> this to two package maintainers.
> 
> Thanks for reminding me of mariadb.
> 
> Simon
> ___
> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Inform DNG users their email has been moved.

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi All,

I will cut it short.

Hopefully, I find someone, a university professor, to give me feedback
even if I need to pay for it. I will NOT stand abusers brainwashing me
into persuasion that I am not fit to code. My project works like many
commercial projects: that is what counts. Words come far too easily.

Edward
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Gaffer tape: was Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Simon Hobson]

Steve Litt  wrote:

>> Gaffer tape and {duct|duck} tape are different products.  Gaffer tape
>> is less adhesive and is designed to be removed easily.  It is more
>> expensive :-)

Ah yes, you are correct - but few sellers give enough information to decide 
what is what.

>> If you have ever used the other tape to secure cables
>> to the floor and then uprooted those cables when tearing down, you
>> will know the misery of trying to remove the other kind of tape now
>> wrapped seamlessly around the cable.

I do indeed have experience of that.

> Wrapped around the cable is the least of your problems: Duct tape can
> damage the carpet, putting the presenter in a world of hurt.
> 
> Given that most of us give presentations requiring taping of cables for
> safety, I think this is ontopic.
> 
> Where can one get gaffer tape especially created to tape cables to the
> carpet for safety purposes? I've used wide clear cellophane tape up to
> now, but that's not really as safe.

Yes, it's a sticky situation to be in - sorry couldn't resist that pun :-)

I do actually have a roll of foil duct tape in the cupboard at work. It's not 
the usual cloth stuff, but a thin sheet of "sticky back kitchen foil" for want 
of a better description. All I'll say is that it's a "write only" option 
applying that - and you really really would not want to use it for anything but 
sealing ducts (which is what I blagged it for).

I also have the reverse experience - of taping things up, only for the tape to 
stop holding it. Sometimes the sticky dries up and leaves a brittle residue 
behind, other times it turns into a horrible soft "sticky mess" that gets 
everywhere it touches.


Of course, there is along history in adhesives. Going back to Roman times, 
there was the god Bosticus - and before them the Greeks had Araldites, the twin 
gods of togetherness.
OK, I'll get my coat.

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

[DNG] ..rubber duck party convention, was: Larcenous mail threads.

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Mon, 18 Jul 2016 08:16:03 +0200, Edward wrote in message 

Re: [DNG] Inform DNG users their email has been moved.

[Jaromil]

I'm sorry about how this is going, but I can't do anything about it.

Also I have no idea about the "moved email" issue. dng is pretty much
a default mailman setup since the beginning, nothing changed
recently. there is no approval needed to post (aka emergency
moderation) and only non-subscribers are moderated against spam.
I don't think is correct to blame frustrations to the technical setup.

IMHO The frustrations are not even due to the fact Edward has animated
the list with a process of learning C and writing applications, which
benefit Devuan too. It was all fine, people who had time and liked to
do so, chipped in. Some interventions by experienced programmers on
the list were even pretty interesting.

I think the thread started degrading with the "larcenous" lamenting,
when instead of focusing on the topic Edward started to pick up a
fight. He is definitely not a troll. There is reason in those who'd
like less generic C debate here. Perhaps such threads on learning C
should really belong to usenet's forums. I'm not sure.

however please lets avoid carrying this further, I think everyone
understood pretty much and will filter or participate accordingly.

ciao

___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Larcenous mail threads.

[Didier Kryn]

Edward,

Do you realize you have been consuming a large fraction of the 
"bandwidth" of this mailing list for your own e-learning of the C 
language and of Linux OS, and for expressing your pathos about the 
reactions of others?


This list has a lot of short-lived off-topic (or sideways) threads, 
which I consider interesting, your's is really long-lived and that may 
explain the reactions of others. As someone already told you, you might 
better find another list for e-learning the C language.


Didier
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

Re: [DNG] Larcenous mail threads.

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi,

Simon Walker wrote:
<<
Edward, you need to read a 101 computing book or a take primer in CS -
and have some patience.  It takes time to learn something. Don't
expect so much from yourself.
>>
Do you realise you are not talking to a child? "101 computing" is
aimed for children.

<<
Put down those programming tools until you understand how a computer works.
>>
What do you mean by that? Are you addressing a computer hardware
engineering student?

<<
Can you explain how a computer works to a child or perhaps a rubber duck?
>>
You place a child at the same level as a rubber duck?! A child can
understand provided any concepts used are within his/her mental age.

Bring me a child whose mental ability is within the norm and we will
see whether I can explain to him/her how a computer works. Although it
should be unnecessary to state the obvious, a child cannot understand
any concepts that are beyond his mental age.

Edward
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng