Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Rainer Weikusat (rweiku...@talktalk.net):

> To re-iterate this: 

[more very strangely worded, difficult-to-parse prose, seemingly alleging
that library libsystemd0 can be used to insert 'calls' into unrelated
applications -- which assertion in my view does not seem correct, if I
am parsing this odd claim correctly]

> I honestly understand why stating this as it is causes hostile
> reactions.

I cannot recall having said anything hostile to you, but repeat that
perhaps some other, future discussion will go better -- and that I see
no point in continuing discussion.

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Re: [DNG] suspend / hibernate with KDE

[Klaus Fuerstberger]

Arnt Karlsen schrieb am 25.07.2016 um 00:18:
> ..I'm on ascii with daemon-version:  0.99.4, and it's been stuck 
> there for a few months, do I need to downgrade or some such?

Devuan 1.0 ships with upower 0.9.23. AFAIK newer daemon versions only
support systemd-based installations.

Klaus
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Re: [DNG] Wirth's law

[Hendrik Boom]

On Sun, Jul 24, 2016 at 11:30:47PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 24/07/2016 22:37, Jaromil a écrit :
> >On Sun, 24 Jul 2016, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
> >
> >>Didier Kryn  writes:
> >>>Le 22/07/2016 18:21, Brian Nash a écrit :
> For example, when I discovered multithreading, all my programs used it
> in some way, even when it was unnecessary.
> >>>I sometimes use multithreading, but never mutexes. Mutex can be
> >>>harmless if there's only one. Otherwise better use select()/poll() or
> >>>you'll waste time or even dead-lock. It's amazing how the old select()
> >>>paradigm is so much better than the modern mutex. I see mutex as an
> >>>invention to relieve the programmer from thinking.
> >>One of the advantages of having more than one thread of execution
> >>running in the same address space is that these can communicate with
> >>each other without going through the kernel. And 'a mutex' is just a
> >>basic primitive for implementing this.
> >nowadays the closures paradigm (basically fifo pipes of pointers to
> >stateless functions) is used much more than all that mutex and
> >semaphore old stuff. i.e. golang adopted closures since the beginning
> >with great success.
> >
> >ciao
> 
> Don't know what a closure is, although I heard of it long ago on this
> list. According to Wikipedia, it is "a record containing a function and its
> environment". I'm not sure it is different of a method associated to an
> object - there are subtelties here.

That is indeed the way it is implemented in the OO language Sather.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Earth-friendly micro-desktop Devuan demo

[Simon Walter]

On 07/25/2016 01:31 AM, Simon Hobson wrote:

I've come to the conclusion that "fast boot" can be counter productive.

SWMBO has a Windows laptop that's quite quick to get to the login screen, but from the 
disk activity indicator it's clear it's not actually booted - just prioritised getting to 
that screen. I still haven't trained her to wait the FIVE MINUTES it takes for that disk 
light to slow a bit before expecting anything to work. As it is, she clicks on an icon 
and "nothing happens" - or nothing seems to happen until a few minutes later 
the program actually opens when the system gets the chance to load it from disk.

So which is "worse" ? A system that is "slow to boot", or a system that is fast to boot 
but "doesn't work" when it apparently is booted.


Spot on. I remember one company that employed 30 odd Windows 
workstations and the switch to Windows 7 was a huge training issue in 
this regard. The Windows admin tried to delay the login prompt for this 
reason. I'd say, just get an SSD if boot speed is that important.


Simon
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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Rainer Weikusat]

Rick Moen  writes:
> Quoting Rainer Weikusat (rweiku...@talktalk.net):
>
>> I didn't expect you to stop the attempt to get a 'religious angle' into
>> this just because I pointed out that your interpretation was completely
>> wrong.
>
> I honestly don't understand the hostility, Rainier:

To re-iterate this: At the most basic level, a shared library enables
resolution of symbol references by the runtime linker with the ultimate
goal to get a program to run despite other files than the program file
itself are needed for this: Because of libsystemd, a systemd
sub-project, technically gratuitious calls to systemd-specific functions
can be inserted into unrelated applications.

I honestly understand why stating this as it is causes hostile
reactions.

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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Rainer Weikusat (rweiku...@talktalk.net):

> I didn't expect you to stop the attempt to get a 'religious angle' into
> this just because I pointed out that your interpretation was completely
> wrong.

I honestly don't understand the hostility, Rainier:   It seems like
anything I say you interpret as bad faith, where I was merely expressing
a preference for specifics and distrusting abstract discussion of
'purposes' in a discussion of software mechanics.  If I've erred, you
are certainly welcome to explain where.  And, if I failed to comprehend and
do justice to your thoughts, which is quite possible, I apologise:  I'm
entirely too fallible, and often caffeine-deficient.

Other that to stress those things, and express my regret for my own
failings and for this having not been a better sub-thread, I see no
point in continuing discussion.  Perhaps some other, future discussion
will go better.

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Re: [DNG] Wirth's law

[Rainer Weikusat]

Didier Kryn  writes:
> Le 24/07/2016 22:31, Rainer Weikusat a écrit :
>> Didier Kryn  writes:
>>> Le 22/07/2016 18:21, Brian Nash a écrit :
 For example, when I discovered multithreading, all my programs used it
 in some way, even when it was unnecessary.
>>> I sometimes use multithreading, but never mutexes. Mutex can be
>>> harmless if there's only one. Otherwise better use select()/poll() or
>>> you'll waste time or even dead-lock. It's amazing how the old select()
>>> paradigm is so much better than the modern mutex. I see mutex as an
>>> invention to relieve the programmer from thinking.
>> One of the advantages of having more than one thread of execution
>> running in the same address space is that these can communicate with
>> each other without going through the kernel. And 'a mutex' is just a
>> basic primitive for implementing this.
>
> I thought mutexes were implementing through a kernel object known
> as futex.

Sleeping on a contended mutex is implemented in this way. But that's
supposed to be an exceptional case.
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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr):

> Here, AFAIU, systemd is different, it requires daemons to
> communicate with it using its own library, so that it forces itself
> into all the daemons.

I am reasonably confident that systemd in its role as an init can start
and stop services that have no dependency on its libraries.  (However, I
am not well informed on that subject however, because I've mostly
avoided systemd.)

> I'm sure we agree, just cheating on details :-)

D'accord.  ;->

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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Rainer Weikusat]

Rick Moen  writes:
> Quoting Rainer Weikusat (rweiku...@talktalk.net):
>
>> That's neither 'abstract' nor 'teleological' as you yourself nicely
>> demonstrated by immediately coming up with an equivalent but different
>> term after reinterpreting my statement in a way it clearly wasn't meant
>> to be understood by exploiting ambiguities inherent in natural language.
>
> Seems pretty darned teleological and abstract to me.

I didn't expect you to stop the attempt to get a 'religious angle' into
this just because I pointed out that your interpretation was completely
wrong.
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Re: [DNG] Wirth's law

[Steve Litt]

On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 23:30:47 +0200
Didier Kryn  wrote:

> Le 24/07/2016 22:37, Jaromil a écrit :
 
> > nowadays the closures paradigm (basically fifo pipes of pointers to
> > stateless functions) is used much more than all that mutex and
> > semaphore old stuff. i.e. golang adopted closures since the
> > beginning with great success.
> >
> > ciao  
> 
>  Don't know what a closure is, although I heard of it long ago on 
> this list. According to Wikipedia, it is "a record containing a
> function and its environment".

Hi Didier,

I've never encountered closures as described by Jaromil, but they're a
pretty handy thing easily done in many languages, with Lua leading the
list. Here's something that might help explain a little bit: 

http://troubleshooters.com/codecorn/lua/luaclosures.htm
 
SteveT

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Re: [DNG] suspend / hibernate with KDE

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 09:26:05 +0200, Klaus wrote in message 
:

> Hello,
> 
> i want to bring back this thread about suspend / hiberante not working
> with KDE.
> 
> In the meanwhile i did a fresh Devuan installation and get no suspend
> and hibernate menu entries in the KDE menu as a normal user.
> 
> When I do a graphical login as root (for testing), I get the hibernate
> menu entry, but no suspend.
> 
> What is neccessary to get the menu as a normal user?
> 
> How to get the suspend menu, which is more important for me. As I can
> see upower does not support suspend. Isn 't it compiled in?
> 
> As normal user:
> 
> #
> ~$ upower -d
> Device: /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/line_power_AC
>   native-path:  AC
>   power supply: yes
>   updated:  So 24 Jul 2016 08:45:36 CEST (1784 seconds
> ago) has history:  no
>   has statistics:   no
>   line-power
> online: yes
> 
> Daemon:
>   daemon-version:  0.9.23
>   can-suspend: no
>   can-hibernate:   no
>   on-battery:  no
>   on-low-battery:  no
>   lid-is-closed:   no
>   lid-is-present:  no
>   is-docked:   no
> #
> 
> As root:
> 
> #
> ~# upower -d
> Device: /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/line_power_AC
>   native-path:  AC
>   power supply: yes
>   updated:  So 24 Jul 2016 08:45:36 CEST (1843 seconds
> ago) has history:  no
>   has statistics:   no
>   line-power
> online: yes
> 
> Daemon:
>   daemon-version:  0.9.23

..I'm on ascii with daemon-version:  0.99.4, and it's been stuck 
there for a few months, do I need to downgrade or some such?

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Didier Kryn]

Le 24/07/2016 23:55, Rick Moen a écrit :

The several init systems I've used such as SysVInit, OpenRC, and runit
do not require that 'applications' (services) talk to the init system using
glue libraries.  In fact, they don't need to talk to the init system at
all, unless I'm misremembering something.
Here, AFAIU, systemd is different, it requires daemons to 
communicate with it using its own library, so that it forces itself into 
all the daemons.




Somehow, I'm getting the feeling we're communicating at cross-purposes,
but I don't understand exactly how that happened.  Somehow we got from
libsystemd0 to... a discussion I don't entirely understand.


I'm sure we agree, just cheating on details :-)

Didier

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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr):

> Would it make any sense to have systemd with no application
> talking to it?

Someone (not me, but someone) might want it as an init system.  ;->

(Infamously, the thing aspires to be many more things, but somewhere
inside that mess there _is_ an init system:  This was the entire point of
V.R.'s / The Initfinder General's uselessd proof of concept.)

The several init systems I've used such as SysVInit, OpenRC, and runit
do not require that 'applications' (services) talk to the init system using
glue libraries.  In fact, they don't need to talk to the init system at
all, unless I'm misremembering something.

Somehow, I'm getting the feeling we're communicating at cross-purposes,
but I don't understand exactly how that happened.  Somehow we got from
libsystemd0 to... a discussion I don't entirely understand.

Anyhow, I concur with your upthread point that it would be good to know 
effective and reasonable ways to elminate unwanted library dependencies 
on a package-managed Linux system.  Rebuilding packages to reduce build
dependencies is one way, alternative packages with fewer library
dependencies is another -- and there may be other ways I'm not currently
recalling.

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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Didier Kryn]

Le 24/07/2016 23:29, Rick Moen a écrit :

Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr):


Don't remember which package depends on some libkerberos5.
Assuming it's openssh or some component of pam.

Package openssh-client.

  $ ldd $(which ssh)
 linux-gate.so.1 =>  (0xb76ec000)
 libresolv.so.2 => /lib/i686/cmov/libresolv.so.2 (0xb7672000)
 libcrypto.so.0.9.8 => /usr/lib/i686/cmov/libcrypto.so.0.9.8 
(0xb751a000)
 libdl.so.2 => /lib/i686/cmov/libdl.so.2 (0xb7516000)
 libz.so.1 => /usr/lib/libz.so.1 (0xb7502000)
 libgssapi_krb5.so.2 => /usr/lib/libgssapi_krb5.so.2 (0xb74d3000)
 libc.so.6 => /lib/i686/cmov/libc.so.6 (0xb738c000)
 /lib/ld-linux.so.2 (0xb76ed000)
 libkrb5.so.3 => /usr/lib/libkrb5.so.3 (0xb72da000)
 libk5crypto.so.3 => /usr/lib/libk5crypto.so.3 (0xb72b7000)
 libcom_err.so.2 => /lib/libcom_err.so.2 (0xb72b4000)
 libkrb5support.so.0 => /usr/lib/libkrb5support.so.0 (0xb72ad000)
 libkeyutils.so.1 => /lib/libkeyutils.so.1 (0xb72a9000)
 libpthread.so.0 => /lib/i686/cmov/libpthread.so.0 (0xb729)
  $

On a system that actually uses Kerberos, pam_krb5.so also gets involved,
and I don't remember how that actually works.  (I've done some Kerberos
in setting up Hadoop on CentOS 6, but not much more than just getting it
going.)


This raises a fundamental problem of distros. openssh and pam must be
able to make use of as many authentication protocols as possible to
cover the needs of all users. How can you reach this goal without
linking them to the corresponding libraries?

It is indeed a thorny problem.  One common answer is the Gentoo-style
one where you employ USE flags or equivalent, and recompile & rebuild
packages to trim build dependencies.

It's certainly possible to carry out a similar action on a deb-packaged
distro by locally rebuilding deb packages, tweaking the 'rules' file
before compiling to reduce build dependencies.  Or, as you say, there
could be regular packages with several different flavours, some with
more dependencies, some with fewer.


The case of libsystemd0 is different. In an OS proposing
systemd, it is normal to have libsystemd0, but not in a system which
excludes it completely. Here is the choice Devuan faces: if systemd
is installable, then many packages must depend on libsystemd, if no
package depends on it, then systemd is not installable.

I followed you all the way to the last sentence, which I'm pretty
certain is simply not correct.

E.g., on my dest Debian 8 'Jessie' VM system (if I were to remove the
current embargoing of system from /etc/apt/preferences), I could remove
all packages that depend on libsystemd0, but then systemd would most
certainly be nonetheless installable.



Would it make any sense to have systemd with no application talking 
to it? Doesn't it imply it couldn't start any service. Therefore no DE, 
no ssh, no ntp, maybe even no login...


Didier

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Re: [DNG] Wirth's law

[Didier Kryn]

Le 24/07/2016 22:37, Jaromil a écrit :

On Sun, 24 Jul 2016, Rainer Weikusat wrote:


Didier Kryn  writes:

Le 22/07/2016 18:21, Brian Nash a écrit :

For example, when I discovered multithreading, all my programs used it
in some way, even when it was unnecessary.

I sometimes use multithreading, but never mutexes. Mutex can be
harmless if there's only one. Otherwise better use select()/poll() or
you'll waste time or even dead-lock. It's amazing how the old select()
paradigm is so much better than the modern mutex. I see mutex as an
invention to relieve the programmer from thinking.

One of the advantages of having more than one thread of execution
running in the same address space is that these can communicate with
each other without going through the kernel. And 'a mutex' is just a
basic primitive for implementing this.

nowadays the closures paradigm (basically fifo pipes of pointers to
stateless functions) is used much more than all that mutex and
semaphore old stuff. i.e. golang adopted closures since the beginning
with great success.

ciao


Don't know what a closure is, although I heard of it long ago on 
this list. According to Wikipedia, it is "a record containing a function 
and its environment". I'm not sure it is different of a method 
associated to an object - there are subtelties here. However I imagine 
the inter-thread synchronization stuff here is the pipes. I implemented 
a pipe object in Ada a few years ago to synchronize two tasks; if it was 
a closure it would be by chance :-)


Didier


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Re: [DNG] Wirth's law

[Didier Kryn]

Le 24/07/2016 22:31, Rainer Weikusat a écrit :

Didier Kryn  writes:

Le 22/07/2016 18:21, Brian Nash a écrit :

For example, when I discovered multithreading, all my programs used it
in some way, even when it was unnecessary.

I sometimes use multithreading, but never mutexes. Mutex can be
harmless if there's only one. Otherwise better use select()/poll() or
you'll waste time or even dead-lock. It's amazing how the old select()
paradigm is so much better than the modern mutex. I see mutex as an
invention to relieve the programmer from thinking.

One of the advantages of having more than one thread of execution
running in the same address space is that these can communicate with
each other without going through the kernel. And 'a mutex' is just a
basic primitive for implementing this.



I thought mutexes were implementing through a kernel object known 
as futex. Certainly optimised for speed, I agree. But the gain is 
significant only if you use it intensively, which might denote a badly 
written program, and you soon incur the risk of loosing a huge amount of 
time as soon as a thread contains more than one of those.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] Wirth's law

[Jaromil]

On Sun, 24 Jul 2016, Rainer Weikusat wrote:

> Didier Kryn  writes:
> > Le 22/07/2016 18:21, Brian Nash a écrit :
> >> For example, when I discovered multithreading, all my programs used it
> >> in some way, even when it was unnecessary. 
> >
> > I sometimes use multithreading, but never mutexes. Mutex can be
> > harmless if there's only one. Otherwise better use select()/poll() or
> > you'll waste time or even dead-lock. It's amazing how the old select()
> > paradigm is so much better than the modern mutex. I see mutex as an
> > invention to relieve the programmer from thinking.
> 
> One of the advantages of having more than one thread of execution
> running in the same address space is that these can communicate with
> each other without going through the kernel. And 'a mutex' is just a
> basic primitive for implementing this.

nowadays the closures paradigm (basically fifo pipes of pointers to
stateless functions) is used much more than all that mutex and
semaphore old stuff. i.e. golang adopted closures since the beginning
with great success.

ciao



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Re: [DNG] Wirth's law

[Rainer Weikusat]

Didier Kryn  writes:
> Le 22/07/2016 18:21, Brian Nash a écrit :
>> For example, when I discovered multithreading, all my programs used it
>> in some way, even when it was unnecessary. 
>
> I sometimes use multithreading, but never mutexes. Mutex can be
> harmless if there's only one. Otherwise better use select()/poll() or
> you'll waste time or even dead-lock. It's amazing how the old select()
> paradigm is so much better than the modern mutex. I see mutex as an
> invention to relieve the programmer from thinking.

One of the advantages of having more than one thread of execution
running in the same address space is that these can communicate with
each other without going through the kernel. And 'a mutex' is just a
basic primitive for implementing this.
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Re: [DNG] Earth-friendly micro-desktop Devuan demo

[Steve Litt]

On Sun, 24 Jul 2016 11:27:09 +0200
Jaromil  wrote:

> On Sun, 24 Jul 2016, KatolaZ wrote:
> 
> > This boot-time-final-quest is just BS, IMHO.  
> 
> yes, I think we all agree on that. But it was the stick we were beaten
> on in the early days and the fact is not even proving to not be legit
> says a lot about the bullies we were up against.

And in fact it was true in some cases. I had a systemd VM that booted
in 2 seconds, while all my non-systemd VMs were booting in 6 to 9
seconds.

But of course, none of these VMs needed to DHCP resolve with Network
Manager. What is that, 20 seconds? Add in unskilled implementers and
systemd's propensity to start hundreds of processes, and pretty soon it
takes some serious time to boot, if you count logging in, which you
must, because the way they do things some things can't be completed til
login.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
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Re: [DNG] Gtk-theme for Devuan

[Go Linux]

Response inline.


On Sun, 7/24/16, aitor_czr  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [DNG] Gtk-theme for Devuan
 To: "Go Linux" , Dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Sunday, July 24, 2016, 5:28 AM
 
> Hi Golinux,

> On 07/24/2016 10:08 AM,   wrote:
>> Am Sat, 23 Jul 2016 19:32:34 +
>> schrieb Go Linux:
>>
>>> >Vertex messes with the size and spacing on the panel icons too.  And
>>> >the white inactive titlebar is just too gtk3ish for my taste. It
>>> >blends with the white BG on pages so I have a hard time finding where
>>> >the apps are on the page.  I also see macish circle control buttons
>>> >on the pdf reader. UGH! And the PDF reader slider is about 1/8 inch
>>> >wide.  That's got to be a gtk3 "improvement".  There is also some
>>> >blue around check-box choices.  And I just noticed that the input bar
>>> >on xchat is now dark green
>> As far as i see, i do not have those problems with vertex (but i use
>> vertex-dark!). May be that's due to the fact, i use JWM (?). For
>> sure, Vertex has problems with gtk3 but as far as i see they are less
>> than others (Clearlook for example!)
>>
>> I do not find Xchat, but in Hexchat, my input line is dark, with white
>> foreground (fonts) - as i would expect it, using a dark theme.
> 
> The pdf reader slider's wide is inherent to the application. Surelly, it
> will happen also with other applications like file-roller and some
> pop-up windows. They are prefabricated tools (probably in PyGtk),
> developed for gnome. And their appearance is horrible independently of
> the used gtk-theme.
> 

Not true!  Just look at the screenies. The sliders and controls in Vertex and 
OSX-Breeze are completely different! So that has to be in the vertex/osx-breeze 
css.  

> 
> Nonetheless, there is no solution for that, just make it less ugly :(
> 

Yes there is either rebuild vertex/osx-breeze or use a different theme.

> 
> However, the circle control buttons can be customized :) They are
> located in gtk-3.0/assets:
> 
> titlebutton.png
> titlebut...@2.png
> titlebutton-close-prelight.png
> titlebutton-close-preli...@2.png
> etc...
> 

I want to start from a theme that works best for my use case.  Of course each 
one of us has different preferences/needs.  Clearlooks-Phenix-purpy has no 
rendering issues on my Devuan XFCE.  I have not yet found another theme that 
doesn't have more problems than it's worth to try to fix.

I suspect emninger's issues are due to the WM he's using.

If anyone following this thread has an interest in the warts that I found for 
both Vertex and OSX-Breeze (I'm sure there are more) in about 5 minutes, you 
can download these screenies: 

http://www.saynotogmos.org/ss/screenies.zip

Of course the landscape is always changing and undoubtedly the future will 
bring challenges that will be harder to work around (more SNS and unneeded 
complexity).

golinux 

> 
> Cheers,
> 
>Aitor.
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Re: [DNG] Gtk-theme for Devuan

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi,

To moderator:
Delete my previous email with the picture as the size is too large.

Steve Litt wrote:
<<
PRIORITIES:

* Readability over pretty.
* Quick Contextual recognition over pretty.
* Readability over real estate efficiency of the screen.
* Quick clickability over pretty.
* Keystroke access over not bothering to program same.

TIPS:

* Noticibly different color titlebar for focused window.
* Reasonable sized titlebars with big devices like close, max, hide
  and windowshade.
* Window designs capable of functioning with big fonts.
* NO FRIGGIN TRANSPARENCY!
* Instantly noticible borders. I use 2px cyan borders on the focused
  window.
* Text with big contrast. Black on white, black on f0f0f0, black or
  darkblue on cc, or white, bright yellow or bright green on black
  are ideal.
* Never assume red and green will contrast with each other: Red/green
  color blindness is the most common form of color blindness.
* Ideally, the text should still contrast if all color is converted to
  shades of gray.
* Active buttons should be instantly recognizable (Firefox hang your
  head in shame).
* Bold mouse pointer. Mouse tracks are nice, but I haven't seen them in
  years.
>>

I am another person who does not have the luxury of a good eyesight.
Dark themes and transparencies irritate my eyes. The symptom is often
burning eyes after about half an hour of exposure.

Please, consider those less fortunate individuals who do not have the
freedom to use whatever theme they are presented with.

I also have to set my font sizes to a larger than normal size. This is
why I use a 17.3 inch laptop even though it costs me double the price
of other more popular laptops.

Using stronger lenses does not solve my eyesight issues.

Desktop picture illustrating what I use:
https://s31.postimg.org/3puyaphor/2016_07_24_171439_1600x900_scrot.png

Edward

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

[Go Linux]

On Sat, 7/23/16, Robert Storey  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Saturday, July 23, 2016, 10:02 AM
 
golinux said:

>> Thanks for reminding me about reisuo/b. Is reisuo/b really enabled on devuan 
>> by 
>> default?  Seems like I tried it a while back and it didn't work.  So I 
>> checked 
>> /etc/sysctl.conf and the line needed wasn't there (neither was there any 
>> other
>> uncommented line).  So my question is . . . if reisuo/b is enabled by 
>> default in 
>> devuan is it located elsewhere and does kernel.sysrq = 1 work for both 
>> reisuo and 
>> reisub?  Or are they different?  (A quick search has me thinking that one 
>> line works 
>> for both.)
>
> Hi golinux,
> 
> Alt-reisub/o seems to be working for me, and I didn't do anything to enable 
> it.
> 
> If you look in /etc/sysctl.d there is a file README.sysctl which basically 
> says you can create and name config files in this directory just about 
> anything. Here are the notes which I've kept for Ubuntu from back in the 
> pre-systemd days:
> 
> -
> 
> open sysctl.d using 'open as root'
> edit 10-magic-sysrq.conf
> comment out the ridiculous default, replace it with the code to allow all 
> sensible 'magic' keys
> ("1 - enable all functions of sysrq". You might like to give it extra 
> thought. I don't.)
> CODE: SELECT ALL
> #kernel.sysrq = 127
> kernel.sysrq = 1
> 
> save it, and remember to come out of elevated priviledges.
> 



Thanks, Robert . . .

I was grokking your suggestion till I got to the Ubuntu notes. The only file in 
the sysctl.d on Devuan is the README.sysctl.  And grep couldn't find 
10-magic-sysrq.conf so I just put the needed line into sysctl.conf.  I haven't 
tested it but reisub/o should be good to go now.

Cheers!

golinux

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Re: [DNG] Gtk-theme for Devuan

[emninger]

Am Sun, 24 Jul 2016 12:00:02 +
schrieb aitor_czr :

> However, the circle control buttons can be customized :) They are 
> located in gtk-3.0/assets:
> 
> titlebutton.png
> titlebut...@2.png
> titlebutton-close-prelight.png
> titlebutton-close-preli...@2.png
> etc...

Yes, sure. But where are these buttons used. I looked a bit around, but
i do not see them. The title bar is configured, in my case, by JWM (and
ceteris paribus in the relative flux- or openbox themes; i agree with
you, that adapt them is a second step).

For the title bar buttons i have a "buttons" theme whereto my jwm theme
points (coloured square buttons: white = hide, blue = max, lila =
maxactive red = close; may be i will adapt, for the dark theme, the
really nice buttons, the now outdated pekwm theme of manjaro used (?)).
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Re: [DNG] Cannot install Samba on Jessie

[hellekin]

On 07/24/2016 10:40 AM, info at smallinnovations.nl wrote:
> 
> Apparently the bug has been fixed? Samba 4.2.10 installed without any
> problem or hickup today with AMD64.
> 

The bug remains open and is unassigned:
https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/issues/61

==
hk

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Re: [DNG] openvpn systemd

[Jaromil]

> also note you may want to use the LEAP project for that, which
> facilitates a big deal of setup on both client and server side.
> https://leap.se/en/docs/platform/tutorials/single-node-vpn LEAP does
> not requires systemd

helas, I must correct myself here: LEAP went heavy on systemd :/

which is already creating problems and of course forcing compromises
on the security model, for instance with this bug
https://leap.se/git/leap_platform.git/commit/1241fb2f62733b8b8b561f9746505f23cd81e3be

what a pity, a project getting some much philantropic funding for
security ending up in that row. I'll try to talk about that with them,
yet the emphasis added on Debian here is not promising
https://leap.se/en/docs/platform they might have had already some sort
of discussion.

nevertheless, there is reusable code in there.

ciao
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Re: [DNG] Cannot install Samba on Jessie

[info at smallinnovations.nl]

On 20-07-16 13:51, dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote:

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 22:48:20 +1200
From: Daniel Reurich
To: Rowland Penny, Dng
Subject: Re: [DNG] Cannot install Samba on Jessie
Message-ID:<578f56f4.6060...@centurion.net.nz>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi Rowland,

We have a bug in amprolla that prevents all parts of the 4.2 version
from being available so the install fails.

Add Debians jessie security repo temporarily to your sources.list to get
around the issue.

Regards,
Daniel.


Apparently the bug has been fixed? Samba 4.2.10 installed without any 
problem or hickup today with AMD64.


Grtz.

Nick

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Re: [DNG] Gtk-theme for Devuan

[aitor_czr]

Hi Golinux,

On 07/24/2016 10:08 AM,   wrote:

Am Sat, 23 Jul 2016 19:32:34 +
schrieb Go Linux:


>Vertex messes with the size and spacing on the panel icons too.  And
>the white inactive titlebar is just too gtk3ish for my taste. It
>blends with the white BG on pages so I have a hard time finding where
>the apps are on the page.  I also see macish circle control buttons
>on the pdf reader. UGH! And the PDF reader slider is about 1/8 inch
>wide.  That's got to be a gtk3 "improvement".  There is also some
>blue around check-box choices.  And I just noticed that the input bar
>on xchat is now dark green

As far as i see, i do not have those problems with vertex (but i use
vertex-dark!). May be that's due to the fact, i use JWM (?). For
sure, Vertex has problems with gtk3 but as far as i see they are less
than others (Clearlook for example!)

I do not find Xchat, but in Hexchat, my input line is dark, with white
foreground (fonts) - as i would expect it, using a dark theme.


The pdf reader slider's wide is inherent to the application. Surelly, it 
will happen also with other applications like file-roller and some 
pop-up windows. They are prefabricated tools (probably in PyGtk), 
developed for gnome. And their appearance is horrible independently of 
the used gtk-theme.


Nonetheless, there is no solution for that, just make it less ugly :(

However, the circle control buttons can be customized :) They are 
located in gtk-3.0/assets:


titlebutton.png
titlebut...@2.png
titlebutton-close-prelight.png
titlebutton-close-preli...@2.png
etc...

Cheers,

  Aitor.



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Re: [DNG] Gtk-theme for Devuan

[aitor_czr]

Hi Steve,

On 07/24/2016 10:08 AM, dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote:

Blind leading the blind, no pun intended. I'm using it in Openbox on
Void Linux, you're using it on xfce or icewm.

I'm attaching the following file:

/usr/share/themes/Clearlooks_slitt/openbox-3/themerc

It started with Clearlooks, and I experimented til I got what I wanted.
I don't understand everything I did. The main points here are:

* dd active titlebar background
* cc active titlebar label color
* 2 pixel border, 00
* Window handle width 6px
* 00 window grip color

Believe me, glance for 1/4 second and you know which is the active
window, and how far it extends in every direction. That big red
titlebar is the only seriously colorful thing on the screen, and the
borders are unmistakable.

It'snotpretty.

SteveT


I'm in openbox, but i still didn't work in the openbox theme. First of 
all is to fix the gtk theme; after that, the openbox theme will be 
adapted to it.


Thanks for your help [*]

  Aitor.


[*] Steve and Golinux :)



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Re: [DNG] Earth-friendly micro-desktop Devuan demo

[Didier Kryn]

Le 24/07/2016 11:27, Jaromil a écrit :

>This boot-time-final-quest is just BS, IMHO.

yes, I think we all agree on that. But it was the stick we were beaten
on in the early days and the fact is not even proving to not be legit
says a lot about the bullies we were up against.

but you are right, we may just be elegant and ignore now.
Noblesse oblige :^)


That's the proper attitude.

Didier

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Re: [DNG] Earth-friendly micro-desktop Devuan demo

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi,

KatolaZ wrote:
<<
On Sat, Jul 23, 2016 at 05:17:51PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 23/07/2016 17:14, Jaromil a écrit :
> >yes is another occasion for rejoicing for all of us :^) and I find
> >this a very interesting point since most systemd arguments talk about
> >"booting times" but here is really about "login times".
>
> Devuan might be faster just because Slim starts faster than Gdm3,
> without relation to systemd/sysvinit choice.
>

I must disagree on this, since my tests on a rpi3 suggest the same,
i.e. Raspbian Jessie (with systemd) is slower on boot than Devuan,
with the same configuration, since the second one was just an upgrade
to Devuan.
>>

So, the extra boot time required was NOT due to having GDM3 loading.

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Re: [DNG] Earth-friendly micro-desktop Devuan demo

[KatolaZ]

On Sat, Jul 23, 2016 at 05:17:51PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:
> Le 23/07/2016 17:14, Jaromil a écrit :
> >yes is another occasion for rejoicing for all of us :^) and I find
> >this a very interesting point since most systemd arguments talk about
> >"booting times" but here is really about "login times".
> 
> Devuan might be faster just because Slim starts faster than Gdm3,
> without relation to systemd/sysvinit choice.
> 

I must disagree on this, since my tests on a rpi3 suggest the same,
i.e. Raspbian Jessie (with systemd) is slower on boot than Devuan,
with the same configuration, since the second one was just an upgrade
to Devuan.

This boot-time-final-quest is just BS, IMHO.

HND

KatolaZ

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[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
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Re: [DNG] Gtk-theme for Devuan

[emninger]

Am Sat, 23 Jul 2016 19:32:34 +
schrieb Go Linux :

> Vertex messes with the size and spacing on the panel icons too.  And
> the white inactive titlebar is just too gtk3ish for my taste. It
> blends with the white BG on pages so I have a hard time finding where
> the apps are on the page.  I also see macish circle control buttons
> on the pdf reader. UGH! And the PDF reader slider is about 1/8 inch
> wide.  That's got to be a gtk3 "improvement".  There is also some
> blue around check-box choices.  And I just noticed that the input bar
> on xchat is now dark green 

As far as i see, i do not have those problems with vertex (but i use
vertex-dark!). May be that's due to the fact, i use JWM (?). For
sure, Vertex has problems with gtk3 but as far as i see they are less
than others (Clearlook for example!)

I do not find Xchat, but in Hexchat, my input line is dark, with white
foreground (fonts) - as i would expect it, using a dark theme.
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Re: [DNG] Gtk-theme for Devuan

[emninger]

Am Sun, 24 Jul 2016 05:14:43 +
schrieb Go Linux :

Hi golinux!

> There may be a way to fix those things in the theme but that would
> take drilling down deep into the code.  If/when I finally get around
> to that I'll start from the original themes to make sure the errors
> weren't introduced with your individual theming.

That would be great since you for sure are much more capable than me.
And it would be great to have a useable theme which deals at least in
some way in a reasonable way with the gtk3 problems.

The Clearlooks-Phènix-purpy, frankly, is nearly unuseable when it comes
to have to deal with gtk3 programs. I do not know about xfce or lxde
since i do not use that kind of DE.

Thanks a lot in advance!
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Re: [DNG] suspend / hibernate with KDE

[Klaus Fuerstberger]

Hello,

i want to bring back this thread about suspend / hiberante not working
with KDE.

In the meanwhile i did a fresh Devuan installation and get no suspend
and hibernate menu entries in the KDE menu as a normal user.

When I do a graphical login as root (for testing), I get the hibernate
menu entry, but no suspend.

What is neccessary to get the menu as a normal user?

How to get the suspend menu, which is more important for me. As I can
see upower does not support suspend. Isn 't it compiled in?

As normal user:

#
~$ upower -d
Device: /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/line_power_AC
  native-path:  AC
  power supply: yes
  updated:  So 24 Jul 2016 08:45:36 CEST (1784 seconds ago)
  has history:  no
  has statistics:   no
  line-power
online: yes

Daemon:
  daemon-version:  0.9.23
  can-suspend: no
  can-hibernate:   no
  on-battery:  no
  on-low-battery:  no
  lid-is-closed:   no
  lid-is-present:  no
  is-docked:   no
#

As root:

#
~# upower -d
Device: /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/line_power_AC
  native-path:  AC
  power supply: yes
  updated:  So 24 Jul 2016 08:45:36 CEST (1843 seconds ago)
  has history:  no
  has statistics:   no
  line-power
online: yes

Daemon:
  daemon-version:  0.9.23
  can-suspend: no
  can-hibernate:   yes
  on-battery:  no
  on-low-battery:  no
  lid-is-closed:   no
  lid-is-present:  no
  is-docked:   no
#

Klaus

Klaus Fuerstberger schrieb am 26.06.2016 um 16:46:
> Hello,
> 
> I try to migrate an existing Debian Jessie installation (for now in a
> virtual machine) to Devuan and did the following:
> 
> apt-get install sysvinit-core sysvinit-utils
> apt-get remove --purge --auto-remove systemd
> 
> Replaced sources.list with:
> deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie main
> deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie-updates main
> deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie-security main
> 
> apt-get dist-upgrade
> 
> Everything is running fine except suspend and hibernate. The menu
> entries are not available in KDE.
> 
> The following maybe related packages are installed:
> 
> ii  libpolkit-agent-1-0:amd64   0.105-9+devuan1
> ii  libpolkit-backend-1-0:amd64  0.105-9+devuan1
> ii  libpolkit-gobject-1-0:amd64   0.105-9+devuan1
> ii  libpolkit-qt-1-1  0.103.0-1
> ii  libudisks2-0:amd64  2.1.3-5+devuan3
> ii  libupower-glib1:amd64  1:0.9.23-2+devuan1.2
> ii  polkit-kde-1  0.99.1-1
> ii  udisks 1.0.5-1+b1
> ii  udisks2 2.1.3-5+devuan3
> ii  upower  1:0.9.23-2+devuan1.2
> 
> How can I get suspend /hibernate working?
> 
> Thanks Klaus
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Re: [DNG] openvpn systemd

[Simon Walter]

On 07/24/2016 02:14 PM, Robert Storey wrote:

This got me wondering...do you we have a How-To for setting up OpenVPN
on Devuan? I'm using wicd for my Internet connection, which as I
understand doesn't support OpenVPN directly, but there is supposed to be
a way to make it work. I haven't investigated that thoroughly, but when
I google "openvpn Devuan" I keep getting links for setting up Debian,
with systemd.

Sorry if this has been asked and answered before, but I didn't find it
doing a search. It's a question that's likely to come up again and
again, so if not documented, I should first get it working and then
write it up myself. I'd be happy to do so.


I've spent several hours understanding OpenVPN. It's the first time I've 
dug into it, as I don't usually use VPNs.


The best info I found was on the OpenVPN site, Debian Wiki, and 
Shorewall's OpenVPN documentation.


https://openvpn.net/index.php/open-source/documentation/howto.html
https://community.openvpn.net/openvpn/wiki/BridgingAndRouting
https://wiki.debian.org/OpenVPN
http://www.shorewall.net/OPENVPN.html

The Debian Wiki does not say anything about systemd. So it's a good 
guide. However, I did find some things to vague. I had no idea what was 
going on. Which is when I went to look for more info.


Simon
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Re: [DNG] openvpn systemd

[Jaromil]

On Sun, 24 Jul 2016, Robert Storey wrote:

>This got me wondering...do you we have a How-To for setting up OpenVPN on
>Devuan? I'm using wicd for my Internet connection, which as I understand
>doesn't support OpenVPN directly, but there is supposed to be a way to
[...]
>so if not documented, I should first get it working and then write it up
>myself. I'd be happy to do so.

good idea, please go ahead and post it in an existing thread on talk.devuan.org
then it will be moved to the appropriate place for howtos

also note you may want to use the LEAP project for that, which
facilitates a big deal of setup on both client and server side.
https://leap.se/en/docs/platform/tutorials/single-node-vpn LEAP does
not requires systemd and we are in good contact with its developers,
so if something needs fixing it will be easily.

thanks!
ciao

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