Re: [DNG] googling devuan ascii leads to spam sites
On 01/20/2018 09:31 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > I googles "devuan ascii" today and in the top few finds there were three > spam sites -- sites which either jut advertised expensive junk, or else > pretended to be my ISP doing a survey and as a reward offering > expensive junk such as (probably fake) testosterone supplements. > > At this point the power went out, so I didn't get to see if there were > more. > > The brief excerpts Google presented before I clicked on links were > legitimate-looking quotes from Devuan sites, listing things like the > platforms devuan runs on and so forth. > > Somehow the spammers have manages to out-SEO the legitimate Devuan > sites. It's not making it easy for newcomers to find us. > > Ugly. The problem is going to be dreadfully hard to reproduce and harder to report even if it can be reproduced. The reason for the difficulty in reproducibility is that the main search engines customize the search results for each perceived user individually based on a lot of factors including past searches. You yourself will get vastly different results from Google if you tell it to pretend to ignore your search history, as well as different results if you use a clean machine with a fresh account coming from another IP number. The latter is the closest you might get to seeing the generic search results for people in your country. There are some hoops Google wants site maintainers to hop through: https://support.google.com/webmasters/answer/183668?hl=en As far as delisting spam goes, I have no clue to how to report it or if they even care as long as ads are served. It's been a very, very long time since there was even an e-mail address for feedback there. /Lars ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] raspberry pi 3
Am 2018-01-20 23:27, schrieb Hendrik Boom: deb http://mirrordirector.raspbian.org/raspbian/ jessie rpi deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie main contrib non-free deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie-updates main contrib non-free deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie-security main contrib non-free So you end up with *both* the devuan sources and a raspbian one? From the raspbian packages you only pull "rpi", not main, contrib, or non-free. rpi contains the specific packages for the Raspberry PI, kernel, bootloader, firmware and so on. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] raspberry pi 3
On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 09:06:29PM +0100, J. Fahrner wrote: > I had no luck with the images from Devuan. But you can install Raspbian and > then migrate to Devuan following this guide: Another option if you know what you're doing is to debootstrap your own install from a x86/x86_64 system. This worked for me the last time I did it for both armhf and arch64 on a jessie system doing a jessie debootstrap, but I see no good reason why it shouldn't also work with Ascii. Of course Ascii isn't official yet, so I could be wrong here. Greg -- web site: http://www.gregn.net gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc skype: gregn1 (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first) If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your contacts. -- Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-mana...@eu.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] raspberry pi 3
On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 09:06:29PM +0100, J. Fahrner wrote: > Am 2018-01-20 20:33, schrieb Hendrik Boom: > >I gather from the extracts provided by the spam sites Google thinks are > >relevant to devuan that there is a devuan for the Raspberry Pi. > > > >Where do I find it? How do I install it? Can I install and try out > >Ascii? or just Jessie? > > I had no luck with the images from Devuan. But you can install Raspbian and > then migrate to Devuan following this guide: > https://talk.devuan.org/t/migrating-from-debian-to-a-minimalist-devuan/181 > > This is my sources.list: > deb http://mirrordirector.raspbian.org/raspbian/ jessie rpi > deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie main contrib > non-free > deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie-updates main contrib > non-free > deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie-security main contrib > non-free So you end up with *both* the devuan sources and a raspbian one? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] googling devuan ascii leads to spam sites
On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 04:24:44PM -0500, Clarke Sideroad wrote: [cut] > > I pull up a solid 2 pages of legitimate links when I Google "devuan ascii" > with no quotes. > I hate to say this, but this makes me think that perhaps your browser may > not be in the "as delivered" condition. > Same over here. I have checked the first 40 google results for "Devuan Ascii", and they are all relevant to Devuan. on the 5th page you start having suff about Debian and from Debian User Forum, but still, relevant to Devuan Ascii. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] googling devuan ascii leads to spam sites
On 2018-01-20 02:31 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: I googles "devuan ascii" today and in the top few finds there were three spam sites -- sites which either jut advertised expensive junk, or else pretended to be my ISP doing a survey and as a reward offering expensive junk such as (probably fake) testosterone supplements. At this point the power went out, so I didn't get to see if there were more. The brief excerpts Google presented before I clicked on links were legitimate-looking quotes from Devuan sites, listing things like the platforms devuan runs on and so forth. Somehow the spammers have manages to out-SEO the legitimate Devuan sites. It's not making it easy for newcomers to find us. Ugly. I pull up a solid 2 pages of legitimate links when I Google "devuan ascii" with no quotes. I hate to say this, but this makes me think that perhaps your browser may not be in the "as delivered" condition. Clarke ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] googling devuan ascii leads to spam sites
On 2018-01-20 13:31, Hendrik Boom wrote: I googles "devuan ascii" today and in the top few finds there were three spam sites -- sites which either jut advertised expensive junk, or else pretended to be my ISP doing a survey and as a reward offering expensive junk such as (probably fake) testosterone supplements. At this point the power went out, so I didn't get to see if there were more. The brief excerpts Google presented before I clicked on links were legitimate-looking quotes from Devuan sites, listing things like the platforms devuan runs on and so forth. Somehow the spammers have manages to out-SEO the legitimate Devuan sites. It's not making it easy for newcomers to find us. Ugly. Using startpage and with heavily filtered content, I'm not seeing any of that here. The problem I DO see is that the first link on the page points to "Upgrading Devuan Jessie to Ascii" on talk.devuan.org which is archived for historical purposes but likely to contain outdated information. We have been trying to gain access to this site for months in order to post appropriate cautions but no joy. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] raspberry pi 3
Hendrik Boom wrote on 20.01.2018 20:33: > I gather from the extracts provided by the spam sites Google thinks are > relevant to devuan that there is a devuan for the Raspberry Pi. > > Where do I find it? How do I install it? Can I install and try out > Ascii? or just Jessie? Hendrik, there are no official images or installation media available for ASCII yet. But you might want to have a look at https://devuan.smallinnovations.nl/?dir=devuan_jessie/embedded (mirror of files.devuan.org, more mirrors listed at devuan.org main page). Upgrading from Jessie to ASCII should essentially be a matter of editing /etc/apt/sources.list, followed by apt-get update; apt-get dist-upgrade. HTH, Regards Urban -- Sapere aude! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] raspberry pi 3
Am 2018-01-20 20:33, schrieb Hendrik Boom: I gather from the extracts provided by the spam sites Google thinks are relevant to devuan that there is a devuan for the Raspberry Pi. Where do I find it? How do I install it? Can I install and try out Ascii? or just Jessie? I had no luck with the images from Devuan. But you can install Raspbian and then migrate to Devuan following this guide: https://talk.devuan.org/t/migrating-from-debian-to-a-minimalist-devuan/181 This is my sources.list: deb http://mirrordirector.raspbian.org/raspbian/ jessie rpi deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie main contrib non-free deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie-updates main contrib non-free deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie-security main contrib non-free ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] googling devuan ascii leads to spam sites
Hendrik Boom wrote on 20.01.2018 20:31: > I googles "devuan ascii" today and in the top few finds there were three > spam sites -- sites which either jut advertised expensive junk, or else > pretended to be my ISP doing a survey and as a reward offering > expensive junk such as (probably fake) testosterone supplements. > > At this point the power went out, so I didn't get to see if there were > more. > > The brief excerpts Google presented before I clicked on links were > legitimate-looking quotes from Devuan sites, listing things like the > platforms devuan runs on and so forth. > > Somehow the spammers have manages to out-SEO the legitimate Devuan > sites. It's not making it easy for newcomers to find us. > > Ugly. Interesting. Motivated by your message I searched the web for devuan ascii (without quotes!), using Ecosia, DuckDuckGo, bing, StartPage, Google (yuck!) and, what the heck, even Yahoo, and in all cases the top hits were more or less relevant to Devuan. A lot of those referred to instructions on how to upgrade from jessie to ASCII. The results may be skewed though, as I probably get .de versions of the pages, but curious nonetheless. Regards Urban -- -- Sapere aude! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] googling devuan ascii leads to spam sites
I googles "devuan ascii" today and in the top few finds there were three spam sites -- sites which either jut advertised expensive junk, or else pretended to be my ISP doing a survey and as a reward offering expensive junk such as (probably fake) testosterone supplements. At this point the power went out, so I didn't get to see if there were more. The brief excerpts Google presented before I clicked on links were legitimate-looking quotes from Devuan sites, listing things like the platforms devuan runs on and so forth. Somehow the spammers have manages to out-SEO the legitimate Devuan sites. It's not making it easy for newcomers to find us. Ugly. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] RFC: Draft call to action for interested users to test elogind/policykit1 with various desktop environments
On Saturday 20 January 2018 at 13:17:01, Edward Bartolo wrote: > Where are these virtual machine images? Are they for Qemu? What VM images are you referring to? Which posting are you replying to? I've not seen any postings here pointing or referring to VM images... Antony. -- I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there are _obviously_ no deficiencies, and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no _obvious_ deficiencies. - C A R Hoare Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] [devuan-dev] RFC: Draft call to action for interested users to test elogind/policykit1 with various desktop environments
Where are these virtual machine images? Are they for Qemu? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] elogind testing for experimental and ascii-proposed
On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 11:46:33AM +0100, Andreas Messer wrote: [cut] > > So my oppinion is, that, at least for transition or migration purposes > we need to provide two paths in devuan, the user needs to choose one of them > > - consolekit(2) + policykit > - elogind + policykit-logind > Dear Andreas, I respectfully disagree on that point. Devuan should always allow a third option, that is: - none of the above and a fourth option, that is: - mix and match, at your own risk This is an attitude that we can't relinquish, whatever the cost. It's at the very heart of Devuan. Not all Devuan users want to have a fully "featured" desktop, and they must retain the possibility of *not* having any of that cruft in their systems (yes, I normally consider that stuff *cruft* in my systems, and I am definitely one of those choosing "none of the above"). Many Devuan users are natural tinkerers, to whom experimenting is at the heart of their GNU/Linux experience. Many more are server users, and don't give a toss to the elogind + policycit + consolekit clusterfuck anyway. Being a universal operating system is about allowing users to choose what to use and what to discard, avoiding unnecessary entanglement. That's why we are here. > Generally i would like to see get rid of all systemd originating software > monoliths. So what i could imagine: > > - Create a logind replacement which redirects all dbus queries to consolekit > and let consolekit doe the session management. dbus queries for which no > consolekit stuff exists (e.g. shutdown/reboot...) could be simply fan out > into an external command, e.g. shell script. Its up to the > administrator/maintainer whats happens then. Using this we can have > consolekit > and logind api at the same time while not struggling with two session > management systems. > > - Create a minimal logind replacement which uses unix commands as thought of > by Adam. This can be used by people who want install DEs requiring logind > but dont want ck or logind to be installed > > If this is possible, every one can choose what he like and what fits > her/his needs. That is the spirit of linux. > To create something we need creators. Personally, I am not interested in desktop-things (it should be very clear by now :P), so I don't see myself actively working to develop replacements for those components. I am otherwise interested in experimenting with different possible alternatives for device management (mdev/smdev?), init systems (sinit?), and process management (perp?), and in possibly making them available in Devuan for those who like minimalism. That's my personal goal for after ascii will be out. Developing a universal operating system is about me and you working at the same distribution, with goals as different as a microminimal shell-only system and a full-featured gorgeous desktop environment, and still not noticing any inconsistency. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [devuan-dev] RFC: Draft call to action for interested users to test elogind/policykit1 with various desktop environments
Hey Irrwahn, On Sat, Jan 20, 2018 at 10:33:09AM +0100, Irrwahn wrote: > Dear Devuan Devs, > [...] > Please comment about any issues you see with this approach in general, > or the draft document in particular. Furthermore, please let me know > your thoughts on where such a call to action should be posted - I don't > follow any fora or the like, so I wouldn't know!, and also I would > appreciate any directions on where to best put the test image, and any > other procedural hints. > [...] Wow, nicely worked out draft document. I like it. One thing i'm currently thinking off, is that that we need the special build policykit in the image (with logind support) Did you take this into account. I think i have to change some things in logind package to reduce its weird behavior? (Killing processes...?) Cheers, Andreas signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] elogind testing for experimental and ascii-proposed
Hello all, sorry for beeing mute for so long, but i was busy with other things, and still have not much time at the moment On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 11:48:43AM +0100, Irrwahn wrote: > Andreas Messer wrote on 19.01.2018 07:16: > > That seems strange. loginctl is a elogind command and when elogind does not > > know about the session loginctl should reject or ask for auth. I'll dig into > > this a little bit more. Probably time to setup a vm. > > So, I did a little more testing: > [...] Thank you very much for the elaborate testing! Taken all the test results into account so far, I conclude we should mark elogind "Conflicts: consolekit". When both are available, one seems not be working properly. Furthermore elogind should get some default configuration which make it to not cause unexpected side effects: - disable killing of porcesses when session ends - ... On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 03:56:22PM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote: > [...] > The dbus API is incompatible. Both can coexist, but it's a bad idea to have > consolekit be unaware of sessions handled by logind -- thus, if you want to > keep consolekit alive, it'd better to implement logind API, as that's what > the desktop environments ecosystem moved to. I fully agree with that. > Devuan doesn't (currently?) support non-Linux kernels, but Debian/kfreebsd > and Debian/hurd guys would thank you for this. > > On the other hand, I have doubts whether logind or consolekit are the best > approaches. The more I look at them, the more I boggle about the > pointlessness of the whole concept of "sessions": with systemd, you can't > have more than one GUI session; when a GUI session is on, ssh-ing in lets > you access all resources that are supposed to be restricted to that GUI > session; switching to another VT stops music from playing (because > security). Thus, if you drop things we don't want, it all boils down to > "does this user have a locally logged in session?". Type "who" and here's > your answer. It would be possible to have a thin stub that answers dbus > requests with standard POSIX backends, or similar non-NIH tools like > pm-suspend. > > Such a stub would lose that "fast user switching" feature, but come on -- we > live in a many computers per person world, rather than many persons per > [...] Well, I use :-). On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 05:34:23PM +, KatolaZ wrote: > On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 06:03:59PM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: > > But wether that session is local or not is, in my opinion, and as I > > already said, futile; and it seems to be mostly used as a justification to > > develop a tangle of daemons and middleware to bypass the traditional unix > > security framework. > > This is where I get totally lost with sessions: why on Earth should I > be able to mount an external device on a remote host to which I login > via SSH? Or unable to do that, if I am a regular user of that machine? > What is the use case for this madness? Does it really solve a problem, > or is just the usual non-working and useless solution to a problem > that doesn't even exist? For me, the mainreason to have this is. Just imagine the case of a machine having a desktop, but also regulary used by other remote users. We had this scenario at university - all desktops where used to run simulation jobs remotely by all users while the secretary was typing in letters. In that case a remote use should not be able to mount USB stick plugged in by the secretary. There also scenarios, where such desktops are not assigned to a particular user but used by different users. (Students Computer pool) The you really want allow mounting only to the guy logged in and sitting in front of the screen. I you dont want to use it on your system, just dont install it. [...] So for me, there is a need for such a function on a desktop system. I could agree with the problem that logind is doing much more than it should. I really dislike that it: - kills process depending on its decision - manipulates control groups - we have already daemons for this - reboots/shutdowns/supsends the system if it like to do so I'm not fully sure, but as far as I understand consolekit does not do such things, so from my viewpoint consolekit is the one to prefer. It is more unix spirit. But we need a solution to allow for different DEs to be used in devuan and for now, many DEs require logind. So my oppinion is, that, at least for transition or migration purposes we need to provide two paths in devuan, the user needs to choose one of them - consolekit(2) + policykit - elogind + policykit-logind Generally i would like to see get rid of all systemd originating software monoliths. So what i could imagine: - Create a logind replacement which redirects all dbus queries to consolekit and let consolekit doe the session management. dbus queries for which no consolekit stuff exists (e.g. shutdown/reboot...) could be simply fan out into an external command, e.g. shell script. Its up to the
Re: [DNG] elogind testing for experimental and ascii-proposed
Le 20/01/2018 à 01:01, Adam Borowski a écrit : On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 02:29:58PM -0800, Rick Moen wrote: The only real solution is to do without the Freedesktop.org 'stack' and give GNOME the heave-ho. Devuan appears unwiling to take that step so far, therefore here you are, adopting Gentoo's systemd-logind forked code (which is what elogind is). While I heartily agree with you about GNOME itself, there's too much software that uses gnome libs to allow such a move without having to patch hundreds if not thousands of packages. Thus, logind needs to be at least emulated. It's currently the most visible bad piece of that stack, but far from being the only one. It is true that a lot of things depend on Gnome libraries, Gnome themes and Gnome icons. But the Gnome libraries may be installed without the whole Gnome monty. It remains that DEs, in particular Xfce4, depend also on the permission kits to perform some operations. Therefore I also think that the best road would be to emulate these kits without the need for a session database and/or PAM integration. However this may be a longer term goal; and, to avoid breaking things in the mean time, use elogind. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
