Re: [DNG] Everyone OK for using the logger program for runit logging?
Quoting mett (m...@pmars.jp):
> by the way, what do u think about
> what is written on that page regarding
> logging?
>
> http://jdebp.eu./FGA/unix-daemon-design-mistakes-to-avoid.html
>
> I was thinking if there is a better
> way of logging, might be worth to try it.
You asked the above of Tom , not me, but I'll
take a swing at it, anyway.
1. I respect author Jonathan de Boyne Pollard, quite a bit. He's
always learned, but also cranky and sometimes eccentric: I don't
mean 'eccentric' as derogation, but sometimes I have doubts about his
sense of perspective.
2. The page's comments about 'syslog()" are probably (my surmise)
directed specifically at the primordial Syslog implementation that
Linux inherited from BSD, e.g., his repeated complaint that syslog()
'UDP for its remote-logging transport'. That was true _early_ in the
history of Syslog, but was later remedied, and that limitation was never
true of the rsyslog fork.
3. Here we get to the perspective problem: He doesn't like the fact
that 'syslog()' first mixes incoming log streams and then follows
rulesets to separate them back out again, calling that a 'waste of time
and effort'. (This trait is also shared by Syslog's main successors,
rsyslog and syslog-ng.) In part to avoid that 'waste', he urges that
processes just log to stderr -- which by implication would then need to
be picked up by something. He has in mind Daniel J. Bernstein's
daemontools (which he approves of, generally) or equivalent _or_ some
other receiver. (For the most part, he's pushing daemontools.)
Jonathan's entitled to his opinion, of course, but some of us actually
_like_ the facilities that Syslog-derived logging daemons provide, and
don't consider their mixing-then-unmixing oddity all that wasteful.
It might oo _might not_ be the ideal design if one were starting from
scratch in 2018 to design logging infrastructure, but I for one am
disinclined to throw away the entire well-developed administrative
scheme just because it _might_ have been done differently and the
results _might_ have been better.
That's not to say I'd refuse somthing better than rsyslog (or
syslog-ng_, just that it'd have to be _very significantly_ better before
I'd bother trying it. (Your mileage may differ.{tm})
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Re: [DNG] Everyone OK for using the logger program for runit logging?
On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 04:59:16PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: [cut] > > Hi Daniel, > > You were so thorough giving facts that I didn't understand your answer: > Would you recommend using logger to transfer daemon stderr (and > configurationally stdout) to the log files? > > You appeared (to me) to say that logger does per default log to the > system logger, and (my interpretation but I know little) that system > logger could be either syslog-ng or rsyslog. If my two intrpretations > earlier this paragraph are true, I personally would draw the conclusion > that logger will write the logs regardless of whether the computer is > set up for syslog-ng, rsyslog, or some other log writer, and thus > logger would be the best and most widely compatible choice. > > Do you agree that logger would be the best and most widely compatible > choice? > I guess I might have missed one of the points here: normally daemons provide their own way of logging to the system logger (they basically use the syslog facilities). So which logs are we talking about here? What shall runit redirect to logger which will in turn redirect to the system logger? My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Everyone OK for using the logger program for runit logging?
On 2018年10月23日 9:10:59 JST, wirelessd...@gmail.com wrote: >On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 at 07:37, Rick Moen wrote: >> The mainstream choices (disregarding journald) in 2018 are rsyslog >and >> syslog-ng, period. A case could be made for either. I _think_ >> rsyslog remains more common. I've personally only encountered >> syslog-ng in embedded logging appliances manufactured by Hungarian >firm >> Balabit, which also is the primary code maintainer for the open >source >> codebase, offering an enhanced proprietary version to customers. >> Consequently, syslog-ng can be considered a case of 'open core' in >the >> sense that syslog-ng is always at risk of being the disregarded >> stepchild because more effort is put into the proprietary 'Premium >Edition'. >> (This is part of the reason I personally continue to favour rsyslog, >> but not vehemently.) >> >> 2007 comparison: >> >https://web.archive.org/web/20170612021518/http://blog.gerhards.net/2007/08/why-does-world-need-another-syslogd.html > >Even Poettering recommends rsyslog for some use cases > >https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/1291 > >--Tom Hi, by the way, what do u think about what is written on that page regarding logging? http://jdebp.eu./FGA/unix-daemon-design-mistakes-to-avoid.html I was thinking if there is a better way of logging, might be worth to try it. ciao, ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Everyone OK for using the logger program for runit logging?
On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 at 07:37, Rick Moen wrote: > The mainstream choices (disregarding journald) in 2018 are rsyslog and > syslog-ng, period. A case could be made for either. I _think_ > rsyslog remains more common. I've personally only encountered > syslog-ng in embedded logging appliances manufactured by Hungarian firm > Balabit, which also is the primary code maintainer for the open source > codebase, offering an enhanced proprietary version to customers. > Consequently, syslog-ng can be considered a case of 'open core' in the > sense that syslog-ng is always at risk of being the disregarded > stepchild because more effort is put into the proprietary 'Premium Edition'. > (This is part of the reason I personally continue to favour rsyslog, > but not vehemently.) > > 2007 comparison: > https://web.archive.org/web/20170612021518/http://blog.gerhards.net/2007/08/why-does-world-need-another-syslogd.html Even Poettering recommends rsyslog for some use cases https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/1291 --Tom ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?
On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 11:10:35PM +0200, Miroslav Skoric wrote: > On 10/20/2018 04:31 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > > > > > It's a seniors club, 70-75 at average. Some of them are more-less fluent > > > in > > > (pirated) Window$ -based mouse clicking to browse the Net, email, and > > > office. So my point is to show them that there are free & unrestricted > > > alternatives. As I said I have two machines there, one is wired to a big > > > TV > > > so they who sit in a last row can listen & watch. That one machine is > > > Devuan > > > Jessie 64-bit for now, I installed it just for test as I never used Devuan > > > distro before. However, I am more experienced in Ubuntu, so I want to show > > > them its desktop too. But the idea is not to disconnect/reconnect each > > > machine from the TV to switch different distro, instead I want to run > > > Devuan > > > as a 'proxy' for Ubuntu to appear on TV as a second option. > > > > Why not just dual-boot between Devuan and Ubuntu? > > Dual boot doen't *require* one of the systems to be nonLinux! > > > > Hendrik, both boxes came to the club installed with Window$, and I have to > keep them that way (partially) until the club members clearly show they want > to learn something else than that. And the boxes' features are insufficient > for a triple-boot endeavours. Important is also to show the audience that > they always can reboot into their 'favourite' environment. Yeah. If triple-boot isn't in the cards, you can't instal both. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?
On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 11:01:01PM +0200, Miroslav Skoric wrote: > On 10/20/2018 02:42 PM, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > > > > ..http://www.pclinuxos.com/ has a reputation for being the easiest > > distro for your kinda newbie users. But it is not Devuan. ;o) > > > > ..https://www.qubes-os.org/ is also not Devuan, but an excellent way > > to set up Devuan safely and securely in, er, these times. > > > > Naah ... is this Devuan or anti-Devuan list? Of course I'll reinstall into > Ubuntu or Debian (or whatever I used in the past) if Devuan does not perform > what I asked for :-) This is a list for people who like Devuan. That said, we realise that Devuan may not be everyone's first choice. We would like people who don't want Devuan to find a system that does appeal to them; therefore we're OK with referring them elsewhere. But we are of course happy to welcome those to whom Devuan does appeal. There are already Devuan derivatives. Even a Devuan lover may have cause to one of those instead. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?
On 10/22/2018 02:38 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: Err, how old do you think the people who developed the "Internet" are? Don't assume they don't have capable minds. We live in a world they built. I'm 72. Still capable mentally, though I need a cane to walk long distances. Don't need a cane to compute. Hendrik, you're the lucky one. But as most of us here you are the Linux 'geek'. My audience is mostly retired cops. Retired 20-25 years ago. They only 'invented' a cane. And now I need a cane to show them power-on buttons ;-) Misko ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?
On 10/22/2018 02:36 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:
alternatives. As I said I have two machines there, one is wired to a big TV
so they who sit in a last row can listen & watch.
What is the other one wired to? A local small display?
Both of them have their own small displays, and the faster box (Devuan)
is also attached to a big TV for presentations. The presentation room is
kinda small theatre and the audience tend to sit far away in the last
rows. (So they can easily smoke & drink while I talk.) And apart of my
presentations everybody can sit in a front of local display, no problem
with that.
But the idea is not to disconnect/reconnect each
machine from the TV to switch different distro, instead I want to run Devuan
as a 'proxy' for Ubuntu to appear on TV as a second option.
No need for a second machine! No need for them to communicate over a cable!
You can have some of the seniors tinkering on one machine while you tinker on
the other!
It's complicated at this stage for total beginners in Linux. That's not
my point. As I said, I already have two machines, each as dual-boot,
wired in between, each having its own display, printer, etc. So it's
just a proper software package issue.
PS: I have already made some tests with remote desktops in my home LAN
(mixed Debian and Ubuntu machines, also in dual-boot combinations). And
I only had to add x11vnc server packages to them, and used clients I
already had on those machines ("Vinagre is a remote desktop viewer for
the GNOME desktop"), and it works! So I planned to do the same with
Devuan. Nothing else than that.
Misko
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Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?
On 10/20/2018 04:31 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: It's a seniors club, 70-75 at average. Some of them are more-less fluent in (pirated) Window$ -based mouse clicking to browse the Net, email, and office. So my point is to show them that there are free & unrestricted alternatives. As I said I have two machines there, one is wired to a big TV so they who sit in a last row can listen & watch. That one machine is Devuan Jessie 64-bit for now, I installed it just for test as I never used Devuan distro before. However, I am more experienced in Ubuntu, so I want to show them its desktop too. But the idea is not to disconnect/reconnect each machine from the TV to switch different distro, instead I want to run Devuan as a 'proxy' for Ubuntu to appear on TV as a second option. Why not just dual-boot between Devuan and Ubuntu? Dual boot doen't *require* one of the systems to be nonLinux! Hendrik, both boxes came to the club installed with Window$, and I have to keep them that way (partially) until the club members clearly show they want to learn something else than that. And the boxes' features are insufficient for a triple-boot endeavours. Important is also to show the audience that they always can reboot into their 'favourite' environment. Misko ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?
On 10/20/2018 02:42 PM, Arnt Karlsen wrote: ..http://www.pclinuxos.com/ has a reputation for being the easiest distro for your kinda newbie users. But it is not Devuan. ;o) ..https://www.qubes-os.org/ is also not Devuan, but an excellent way to set up Devuan safely and securely in, er, these times. Naah ... is this Devuan or anti-Devuan list? Of course I'll reinstall into Ubuntu or Debian (or whatever I used in the past) if Devuan does not perform what I asked for :-) .._play_around_until_ you have a setup you're confident enough to tease your users into using. Your users has lived thru pretty bad times and _understand_ their need for _RL_ privacy, and will easily accept they need online privacy too, a fact you will find is handy when you are ready to scare them off their pirated Wintendos. ;o) Sure. I had downloaded a Devuan installation on a DVD and installed one of those comps. One of my points is to check it for differences against Debian and/or Ubuntu, so if it proves as failed it's not a big deal for me to reinstall into one of those mentioned :-) Misko ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Everyone OK for using the logger program for runit logging?
On 22/10/2018 21:59, Steve Litt wrote: > On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 20:08:57 + > Daniel Abrecht wrote: > >> On 22/10/2018 19.38, Steve Litt wrote: >>> Is logger just another sister of syslog-ng and rsyslog? >> Snip [Edited for brevity] > > Hi Daniel, > > You were so thorough giving facts that I didn't understand your answer: > Would you recommend using logger to transfer daemon stderr (and > configurationally stdout) to the log files? > > You appeared (to me) to say that logger does per default log to the > system logger, and (my interpretation but I know little) that system > logger could be either syslog-ng or rsyslog. If my two intrpretations > earlier this paragraph are true, I personally would draw the conclusion > that logger will write the logs regardless of whether the computer is > set up for syslog-ng, rsyslog, or some other log writer, and thus > logger would be the best and most widely compatible choice. > > Do you agree that logger would be the best and most widely compatible > choice? In my experience yes, absolutely, suitable for both enterprise and embedded systems. Your interpretation is correct (logger can do more). But there is one caveat where there is a gaping hole in my knowledge. Having logging working at the earliest point in the boot process is a very desirable attribute. Potentially even before all file systems have been mounted (the kernel uses a cache buffer so pre-file system log info is not lost). Does 'runit' have its own built-in method for passing information to the system logs ? If it does I would not immediately rule that out in favour of 'logger', especially if it caches. I will have to set a devuan (VM as I lack hardware) test system up and research further before I can answer. > > Thanks, > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business > http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz > ___ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Everyone OK for using the logger program for runit logging?
On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 20:08:57 + Daniel Abrecht wrote: > On 22/10/2018 19.38, Steve Litt wrote: > > Is logger just another sister of syslog-ng and rsyslog? > > > logger does per default log to the system logger. That can be > rsyslog, syslog-ng, or any other system syslog daemon, really (with > the exception of journald, which does it's own thing.). This is why I > think everything should log to the system logger, which can then > still log everything to log files or to another server or anything > else. logger is one of the few logging clients which even support > rfc5424 and its structured data elements, so I quiet like it, but I > think anything that can log to the syslog unix socket is fine. > > So, long story short, logger is a syslog client, while rsyslog, > syslog-ng, etc. are logging daemons/servers. > > There is currently no c logging library with rfc5424 support I'm > aware of (only rfc3164), while every logging daemon/server does > support it, but thats a different and minor problem. (I really should > write one and update my libjournal-shim) Hi Daniel, You were so thorough giving facts that I didn't understand your answer: Would you recommend using logger to transfer daemon stderr (and configurationally stdout) to the log files? You appeared (to me) to say that logger does per default log to the system logger, and (my interpretation but I know little) that system logger could be either syslog-ng or rsyslog. If my two intrpretations earlier this paragraph are true, I personally would draw the conclusion that logger will write the logs regardless of whether the computer is set up for syslog-ng, rsyslog, or some other log writer, and thus logger would be the best and most widely compatible choice. Do you agree that logger would be the best and most widely compatible choice? Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt September 2018 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Everyone OK for using the logger program for runit logging?
Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > Is logger just another sister of syslog-ng and rsyslog? If we're talking about the same 'logger' tool, then no: The Linux logger command provides an easy way to add log files to /var/log/syslog — from the command line, from scripts, or from other files. https://www.networkworld.com/article/3274570/linux/using-logger-on-linux.html > Does the Devuan project have an official preference between rsyslog, > syslog-ng, logger, or some other program that handles additions to > logs? If no official preference, can you come up with an UNofficial > preference so I can incorporate it into daemon supervision? I'm only half-informed (well, 2/3 informed) about this topic, but my understanding of this matter is as follows: 1. The early 1990s Linux project at first inherited from BSD to original Syslog codebase (project launched in 1980). Syslog established the standard Syslog wire (i.e., network) logging protocol (see RFC 3164), initially using only UDP transport, i.e., no guaranteed delivery and the standard configuration syntax. Later, TCP transport was retrofitted. The daemon's usual name was sysklogd. It's still around; maintenance has become a little spotty. 2. rsyslog arrived in 2004 as a very compatible, extended replacement to Syslog. It added filtering rules (as to types of messages to discard), much finer control of the network protocol, extensive optional modules, etc. It was drop-compatible, e.g. a Syslog syslog.conf could be just cp'd to rsyslog.conf and nothing would break. 3. syslog-ng arrived earlier, 1998, but was a greater departure. It also had content-based filtering, ability to log directly into a database, and built-in TLS encryption for the syslog protocol. (Last I checked, TLS was still less-well integrated for rsyslog.) syslog-ng defaults to a _different_ syntax of config file, (ISTR it now also can use Syslog-standard config syntax, but wouldn't swear to that.) 4. nxlog got invented by some guy in 2011 as a multiplatform logger, but all I'm going to say about it is that 'NXLog Community Edition' is claimed to be open source but is under a one-off licence that deliberately encumbers third-party commercial rights. 5. msyslog (Modular Syslog) is still around (https://sourceforge.net/projects/msyslog/) but seems to have never really caught on as a Syslog replacement. 6. Poettering wrote journald in 2010. The mainstream choices (disregarding journald) in 2018 are rsyslog and syslog-ng, period. A case could be made for either. I _think_ rsyslog remains more common. I've personally only encountered syslog-ng in embedded logging appliances manufactured by Hungarian firm Balabit, which also is the primary code maintainer for the open source codebase, offering an enhanced proprietary version to customers. Consequently, syslog-ng can be considered a case of 'open core' in the sense that syslog-ng is always at risk of being the disregarded stepchild because more effort is put into the proprietary 'Premium Edition'. (This is part of the reason I personally continue to favour rsyslog, but not vehemently.) 2007 comparison: https://web.archive.org/web/20170612021518/http://blog.gerhards.net/2007/08/why-does-world-need-another-syslogd.html ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Everyone OK for using the logger program for runit logging?
On 22/10/2018 19.38, Steve Litt wrote: Is logger just another sister of syslog-ng and rsyslog? logger does per default log to the system logger. That can be rsyslog, syslog-ng, or any other system syslog daemon, really (with the exception of journald, which does it's own thing.). This is why I think everything should log to the system logger, which can then still log everything to log files or to another server or anything else. logger is one of the few logging clients which even support rfc5424 and its structured data elements, so I quiet like it, but I think anything that can log to the syslog unix socket is fine. So, long story short, logger is a syslog client, while rsyslog, syslog-ng, etc. are logging daemons/servers. There is currently no c logging library with rfc5424 support I'm aware of (only rfc3164), while every logging daemon/server does support it, but thats a different and minor problem. (I really should write one and update my libjournal-shim) Regards, Daniel Abrecht ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Command to permanently prevent sysvinit from starting daemon
On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 20:09:55 +0100, Simon wrote in message <5f3ba84f-752c-4bee-b0c6-8e31b10f3...@thehobsons.co.uk>: > Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > > ..well, that's still 256 possible runlevel names. ;o) > > TBH, I don't think there's all that much scope for **usefully** using > lots of runlevels. > > To start with, (near enough) every package comes with a control > script for rc to use - and which contains comments to signal to the > management scripts what runlevels the daemon in intended to run in. > So you'd have to edit all of those so that update-rc can do it's job > easily. ..before we get that far, we still have those 3 vacant runlevels most people never use, which _are_ supported by update-rc. :o) > And of course, once you do that then you get into all the > problems that come with editing package supplied files- having to > choose between your own or the (possibly updated) package supplied > one, and re-applying changes if you choose to use the updated package > supplied file. > > And then there is the issue that if you want different combinations > of daemons running, then you need to list all those that need to run > in each combination. Unless you only need a small number of > combinations (in which case the spare ones of 3,4,5 are likely to > suffice) ..aye, e.g. 3 for "on work wifi", 4 for "on phone wifi" and 5 for "record drone FPV video" would work for people like me. > then it's likely to turn into quite a PITA. ..aye, I was thinking "systemd isolate" style idiot stunt things, not combinations of those, which would be an awesomely bad idea. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Command to permanently prevent sysvinit from starting daemon
On 10/22/18 6:14 AM, KatolaZ wrote: On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 02:54:40PM +0200, Arnt Karlsen wrote: [cut] sysvinit currently supports runlevels 0-6, with 0 and 6 have special, fixed meaning. There is *currently* no way of naming a runlevel using more than one character, due to the way the "change runlevel" information is communicated to the init process. In Debian/Devuan, runlevel 1 has traditionally been assigned to single-user mode, and runlevel 2 to multi-user mode. But there is no written rule about that (meaning that a sysadmin can move and configure runlevels around as she wishes). ..I thank you both for your excellent heads-up on the *current* status of sysvinit, a first step would be try utf-8 characters like 'telinit � ' etc ... :o) Aaand, I'm still not saying this is an awesomely good idea. ;o) Sorry, I should have been more precise on that: sysvinit currently supports only runlevel names consisting of *one byte*. ;) HND KatolaZ Classicly, not even one byte, but one digit,0 to 9 or symbolics for zero to six - sSQqabcUu 7, 8 and 9 are almost never used (and almost totally undocumented) but are available for custom stuff. Different distros that use sysV may use the run levels differently. Usually 1 is single user, 2 is no NFS multiuser, 3 is full multiuser, 5 is graphic multiuser, 6 handles reboot and 0 handles halt. If I understand the original question "how to I get sysV init to not start a process present in the init system", There is a command, chkconfig: chkconfig on or off changes the state of the init script to either on or off. When runlevel changes, the script, if on executes. Off is then obvious. chkconfig --list without the name of an init script, lists the configured run level(s) for all init scripts that sysV is aware of and all the runlevels for them, on or off. If an init script name is given, the state of that script is shown chkconfig --add chkconfig --del adds or removes an init script from sysV "awareness" Upstart maintains an imperfect but highly usable level of compatibility. chkconfig still works but /etc/inittab isn't used. For REAL fun go find an old BSD style init. One monolithic init script for all the system processes except those directly in /etc/inittab ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Everyone OK for using the logger program for runit logging?
On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 11:23:09 +0200 KatolaZ wrote: > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 11:16:30AM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: > > Le 21/10/2018 à 20:18, Steve Litt a écrit : > > > Hi all, > > > > > > With runit, you can either use the "runit way" of recording log > > > files, in which one looks in the daemon's run directory for > > > something called .main, or you can use one of several logging > > > programs. I'm using logger, and a Devuan ASCII VM guest I > > > downloaded has the logger program and I didn't install it. > > > > > > The logger program appears to put messages with the correct > > > timestamp, correct tag, and message, in the proper log file. This > > > log file was /var/log/messages for logins to ssh. > > > > > > I have to choose one method of doing logs for Devuan's daemon log > > > run scripts. Is doing it with the logger program OK with you? > > > > > > SteveT > > > > > > syslog daemons are very convenient, rsyslogd, for example, > > features a lot of methods to dispatch/centralize logs on the LAN > > and perform several other actions. It is very usefull in an > > environment with several interoperating hosts. The pprinciple is to > > not write the log to a file but use the syslog mechanism (socket > > and lock) and let the syslog daemon (eg rsyslogd) manage the logs. > > > > Didier > > I would probably agree with Didier. Good, now we're getting somewhere. My Devuan VM shows available packages of syslog-ng and rsyslog. Each seems to have all sorts of modules, some of which seem to govern the final log format (mongodb, postgres, mysql etc). Interestingly, my VM has logger already installed, but not syslog-ng nor rsyslog. Is logger just another sister of syslog-ng and rsyslog? Does the Devuan project have an official preference between rsyslog, syslog-ng, logger, or some other program that handles additions to logs? If no official preference, can you come up with an UNofficial preference so I can incorporate it into daemon supervision? Thanks, SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Command to permanently prevent sysvinit from starting daemon
Arnt Karlsen wrote: > ..well, that's still 256 possible runlevel names. ;o) TBH, I don't think there's all that much scope for **usefully** using lots of runlevels. To start with, (near enough) every package comes with a control script for rc to use - and which contains comments to signal to the management scripts what runlevels the daemon in intended to run in. So you'd have to edit all of those so that update-rc can do it's job easily. And of course, once you do that then you get into all the problems that come with editing package supplied files- having to choose between your own or the (possibly updated) package supplied one, and re-applying changes if you choose to use the updated package supplied file. And then there is the issue that if you want different combinations of daemons running, then you need to list all those that need to run in each combination. Unless you only need a small number of combinations (in which case the spare ones of 3,4,5 are likely to suffice) then it's likely to turn into quite a PITA. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Command to permanently prevent sysvinit from starting daemon
On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 15:14:48 +0200, KatolaZ wrote in message <20181022131448.c77g4mldzlcjv...@katolaz.homeunix.net>: > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 02:54:40PM +0200, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > [cut] > > > > sysvinit currently supports runlevels 0-6, with 0 and 6 have > > > special, fixed meaning. There is *currently* no way of naming a > > > runlevel using more than one character, due to the way the > > > "change runlevel" information is communicated to the init process. > > > > > > In Debian/Devuan, runlevel 1 has traditionally been assigned to > > > single-user mode, and runlevel 2 to multi-user mode. But there is > > > no written rule about that (meaning that a sysadmin can move and > > > configure runlevels around as she wishes). > > > > ..I thank you both for your excellent heads-up on the *current* > > status of sysvinit, a first step would be try utf-8 characters > > like 'telinit å ' etc ... :o) > > Aaand, I'm still not saying this is an awesomely good idea. ;o) > > > > Sorry, I should have been more precise on that: sysvinit currently > supports only runlevel names consisting of *one byte*. ;) ..well, that's still 256 possible runlevel names. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Command to permanently prevent sysvinit from starting daemon
On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 02:54:40PM +0200, Arnt Karlsen wrote: [cut] > > sysvinit currently supports runlevels 0-6, with 0 and 6 have special, > > fixed meaning. There is *currently* no way of naming a runlevel using > > more than one character, due to the way the "change runlevel" > > information is communicated to the init process. > > > > In Debian/Devuan, runlevel 1 has traditionally been assigned to > > single-user mode, and runlevel 2 to multi-user mode. But there is no > > written rule about that (meaning that a sysadmin can move and > > configure runlevels around as she wishes). > > ..I thank you both for your excellent heads-up on the *current* > status of sysvinit, a first step would be try utf-8 characters > like 'telinit å ' etc ... :o) > Aaand, I'm still not saying this is an awesomely good idea. ;o) > Sorry, I should have been more precise on that: sysvinit currently supports only runlevel names consisting of *one byte*. ;) HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Command to permanently prevent sysvinit from starting daemon
On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 12:40:20 +0200, KatolaZ wrote in message <20181022104020.acw7kg5hbcnfd...@katolaz.homeunix.net>: > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 11:18:39PM +0200, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 19:07:36 +0200, Didier wrote in message > > <826ba68a-6289-d047-7e74-d970996d2...@in2p3.fr>: > > > > > Le 21/10/2018 à 19:01, Didier Kryn a écrit : > > > > I'm not an expert, but it seems to me the answer is in > > > > inittab; the following line invokes the daemon which launches > > > > all the scripts: > > > > > > > > si::sysinit:/etc/init.d/rcS > > > > > > > > > Well, there is also the following lines: > > > > > > l0:0:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 0 > > > l1:1:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 1 > > > l2:2:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 2 > > > l3:3:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 3 > > > l4:4:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 4 > > > l5:5:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 5 > > > l6:6:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 6 > > > > ..how many "runlevels" _can_ we add here? Can we name them freely? > > > > ..I'm not saying we should beat a stuffed "sysctl isolate $service" > > systemd pig, just noting we have numbers and letters and lower and > > upper cases etc and I've never seen anyone try "telinit 666" nor > > 'init Tor' nor 'init FlightGear' etc to swap box configs to do > > specific things like surf porn, investigate corruption or race quad > > copters in FlightGear online, and to "kill off everything else" > > using cpu, gpu or ram etc, automagically. > > > > sysvinit currently supports runlevels 0-6, with 0 and 6 have special, > fixed meaning. There is *currently* no way of naming a runlevel using > more than one character, due to the way the "change runlevel" > information is communicated to the init process. > > In Debian/Devuan, runlevel 1 has traditionally been assigned to > single-user mode, and runlevel 2 to multi-user mode. But there is no > written rule about that (meaning that a sysadmin can move and > configure runlevels around as she wishes). ..I thank you both for your excellent heads-up on the *current* status of sysvinit, a first step would be try utf-8 characters like 'telinit å ' etc ... :o) Aaand, I'm still not saying this is an awesomely good idea. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?
On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 01:39:41PM +1100, terryc wrote: > On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 13:07:19 +0200 > Miroslav Skoric wrote: > > > > It's a seniors club, 70-75 at average. > > Err, how old do you think the people who developed the "Internet" are? > Don't assume they don't have capable minds. We live in a world they > built. I'm 72. Still capable mentally, though I need a cane to walk long distances. Don't need a cane to compute. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan + remote desktop of Ubuntu = how?
On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 01:07:19PM +0200, Miroslav Skoric wrote: > On 10/17/2018 03:18 PM, terryc wrote: > > > > Machines can > > > ping each other now, so besides introducing Devuan, I also want to > > > introduce Ubuntu via Devuan by some kind of remote GUI access or > > > like. Suggestions? Please note that there is no Internet access to > > > those boxes, so anything needed for each comp must be downloaded > > > elsewhere and brought on USB or CD. Of course you could just use a live CD and boot from that and skip the installation step. Unless the speed disadvantage is a problem. > > Burn the basic DVD and do the installation from it and if you have > > it on hand, you can show how easily the computer can acquire other > > applications by; > > 0) open a terminal > > b) aptitude search some application (or hint utility). > > c)sudo aptitude install chosen-utility. Won't be able to do this without an internet connection. Unless your /etc/apt/sources.list includes a suitable devuan repository mounted locally. > > d) utility. > > It's a seniors club, 70-75 at average. Some of them are more-less fluent in > (pirated) Window$ -based mouse clicking to browse the Net, email, and > office. So my point is to show them that there are free & unrestricted > alternatives. As I said I have two machines there, one is wired to a big TV > so they who sit in a last row can listen & watch. What is the other one wired to? A local small display? > That one machine is Devuan > Jessie 64-bit for now, I installed it just for test as I never used Devuan > distro before. However, I am more experienced in Ubuntu, so I want to show > them its desktop too. You should try your Ubuntu desktop on your Devuan Jessie. Chances are it's available on Jessie as well as on Ubuntu and then you won't have to carry two OS's around. Simplify your life! Just another apt-get install into Jessie. You'll just have to log out, choose a different window manager or desktop and log in again. Show off nother of Linux's capabilities! Except: * Some window managers even allow you to switch to another window manager without logging out. * There might be some problems with gnome because it is somewhat wedded to systemd. > But the idea is not to disconnect/reconnect each > machine from the TV to switch different distro, instead I want to run Devuan > as a 'proxy' for Ubuntu to appear on TV as a second option. No need for a second machine! No need for them to communicate over a cable! You can have some of the seniors tinkering on one machine while you tinker on the other! > Both machines > are pretty old. Devuan box is somewhat faster but also old so that's why it > is wired to the TV as the primary sample for Linux introduction. At this > stage I do not want the elders to play with keyboards just like that, but to > relax sitting in the room and watch the presentations. Installing software > in terminal or like is not an option for the audience, it would be too much > for them to understand, they are not Linux geeks. As well it is playing VM, > at least until they learn the basics. Btw, those comps are dual-boot with > Window$ because they are also used for other things besides Linux promotion. > There is no Internet in the club so I need exactly what software packages > need to be downloaded elsewhere and brought to the site. For Ubuntu there is > Remina or like (if I recall the proper name) but duno what needs for Devuan. > > Misko > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Command to permanently prevent sysvinit from starting daemon
On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 11:18:39PM +0200, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 19:07:36 +0200, Didier wrote in message > <826ba68a-6289-d047-7e74-d970996d2...@in2p3.fr>: > > > Le 21/10/2018 à 19:01, Didier Kryn a écrit : > > > I'm not an expert, but it seems to me the answer is in inittab; > > > the following line invokes the daemon which launches all the > > > scripts: > > > > > > si::sysinit:/etc/init.d/rcS > > > > > > Well, there is also the following lines: > > > > l0:0:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 0 > > l1:1:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 1 > > l2:2:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 2 > > l3:3:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 3 > > l4:4:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 4 > > l5:5:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 5 > > l6:6:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 6 > > ..how many "runlevels" _can_ we add here? Can we name them freely? > > ..I'm not saying we should beat a stuffed "sysctl isolate $service" > systemd pig, just noting we have numbers and letters and lower and > upper cases etc and I've never seen anyone try "telinit 666" nor > 'init Tor' nor 'init FlightGear' etc to swap box configs to do specific > things like surf porn, investigate corruption or race quad copters > in FlightGear online, and to "kill off everything else" using cpu, > gpu or ram etc, automagically. > sysvinit currently supports runlevels 0-6, with 0 and 6 have special, fixed meaning. There is *currently* no way of naming a runlevel using more than one character, due to the way the "change runlevel" information is communicated to the init process. In Debian/Devuan, runlevel 1 has traditionally been assigned to single-user mode, and runlevel 2 to multi-user mode. But there is no written rule about that (meaning that a sysadmin can move and configure runlevels around as she wishes). HTH KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Command to permanently prevent sysvinit from starting daemon
Le 21/10/2018 à 23:18, Arnt Karlsen a écrit : On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 19:07:36 +0200, Didier wrote in message <826ba68a-6289-d047-7e74-d970996d2...@in2p3.fr>: Le 21/10/2018 à 19:01, Didier Kryn a écrit : I'm not an expert, but it seems to me the answer is in inittab; the following line invokes the daemon which launches all the scripts: si::sysinit:/etc/init.d/rcS Well, there is also the following lines: l0:0:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 0 l1:1:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 1 l2:2:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 2 l3:3:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 3 l4:4:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 4 l5:5:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 5 l6:6:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 6 ..how many "runlevels" _can_ we add here? Can we name them freely? Debian/Devuan don't use all these runlevels but it doesn't harm to have them in inittab. Here are the runlevels' definition: 0 (halt the system) 1 (single-user / minimal mode), 2 (multiuser modes), debian uses only runlevel 2 by default 6 (reboot the system). The practical translation of runlevels is that not all services are running in all runlevels, and starting/stopping services when changing runlevel is managed by rc. I don't know if runit can manage that. AFAIR Busybox's init reads the same format of inittab but ignores runlevels; but I don't remember how it manages halt/reboot. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Everyone OK for using the logger program for runit logging?
You can use runit's own svlogd [1] and redirect everything to syslogd. __ [1] http://smarden.org/runit/svlogd.8.html ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Everyone OK for using the logger program for runit logging?
On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 11:16:30AM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 21/10/2018 à 20:18, Steve Litt a écrit : > > Hi all, > > > > With runit, you can either use the "runit way" of recording log files, > > in which one looks in the daemon's run directory for something > > called .main, or you can use one of several logging programs. I'm using > > logger, and a Devuan ASCII VM guest I downloaded has the logger program > > and I didn't install it. > > > > The logger program appears to put messages with the correct timestamp, > > correct tag, and message, in the proper log file. This log file > > was /var/log/messages for logins to ssh. > > > > I have to choose one method of doing logs for Devuan's daemon log run > > scripts. Is doing it with the logger program OK with you? > > > > SteveT > > > syslog daemons are very convenient, rsyslogd, for example, features a > lot of methods to dispatch/centralize logs on the LAN and perform several > other actions. It is very usefull in an environment with several > interoperating hosts. The pprinciple is to not write the log to a file but > use the syslog mechanism (socket and lock) and let the syslog daemon (eg > rsyslogd) manage the logs. > > Didier I would probably agree with Didier. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Everyone OK for using the logger program for runit logging?
Le 21/10/2018 à 20:18, Steve Litt a écrit : Hi all, With runit, you can either use the "runit way" of recording log files, in which one looks in the daemon's run directory for something called .main, or you can use one of several logging programs. I'm using logger, and a Devuan ASCII VM guest I downloaded has the logger program and I didn't install it. The logger program appears to put messages with the correct timestamp, correct tag, and message, in the proper log file. This log file was /var/log/messages for logins to ssh. I have to choose one method of doing logs for Devuan's daemon log run scripts. Is doing it with the logger program OK with you? SteveT syslog daemons are very convenient, rsyslogd, for example, features a lot of methods to dispatch/centralize logs on the LAN and perform several other actions. It is very usefull in an environment with several interoperating hosts. The pprinciple is to not write the log to a file but use the syslog mechanism (socket and lock) and let the syslog daemon (eg rsyslogd) manage the logs. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
