Re: [DNG] mailing list software
There's also Sieve. Not a drop-in replacement to procmail, but pretty powerful. On 12/12/18 5:08 PM, Joel Roth via Dng wrote: Jim Jackson wrote: Just an aside - what are the alternatives to procmail? so far I've only found _maildrop_ as an in-line delivery filter. I filter my incoming mail using perl script based on https://metacpan.org/pod/Email::Filter. It is designed to be a drop-in replacement for procmail, with a bit less cryptic syntax. cheers -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] About gnuinos ascii
On 12/12/18 at 00:36, aitor wrote: > Thanks for your attention, and merry christmas to all of you :) Thank you for your contribution, and Happy Christmas and Merry New Year to you! ☺ -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Drive-by critique
Eric has never been the developer of a distribution, so there will be things he doesn't understand. I am all for having as many users as possible. I understand the problem of proprietary firmware and hope that this is not a significant blocker for most people, especially since most distribution installers do provide a way to download it (and we should offer the choice even if we don't approve). This will not help people with a network interface that requires proprietary firmware to run. But IMO the main problems with developing a large user community are ease of use and impedance mismatch between the developers and users. Many Debian developers would not have been the best people to communicate with a naive user, and Devuan does further distill that characteristic. IMO this is self-defeating for Free Software. Thanks Bruce ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] mailing list software
Jim Jackson - 12.12.18, 15:33: > On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Rick Moen wrote: > > Quoting Lars Nood??n via Dng (dng@lists.dyne.org): > > > It's probably a time that Procmail be retired, and thus anything > > > based on it. There have been a lot of reports in recent years of > > > serious, unsafe bugs in its processing. However, there is this > > > comment about it from a former Procmail maintainer to consider: > > > > > > https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-ports&m=141634350915839&w=2 > > > > Upon examination, it turns out that the known flaws in Procmail lack > > any credible exploitation scenario. The matter was covered on > > LWN.net a few years ago, and I'm pretty sure nothing has changed > > substantively. > > > > (I've gone through this discussion several times since then on > > mailing lists, and can dredge up details from those if necessary.) > > Just an aside - what are the alternatives to procmail? > so far I've only found _maildrop_ as an in-line delivery filter. Postfix has built-in minimal lda, but I use "dovecot-lda" as "mailbox_command" in Postfix. I set it up for Sieve support which IMHO is a nice way to speficy rules for IMAP based mail accounts. I still receive a copy of mail via POP3 and let KMail sort it locally. All mail it duplicated to IMAP account and "find -delete" removes older mail. This IMAP account is for accessing via K9-Mail on smartphone. -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] mailing list software
Jim Jackson wrote: > > Just an aside - what are the alternatives to procmail? > so far I've only found _maildrop_ as an in-line delivery filter. I filter my incoming mail using perl script based on https://metacpan.org/pod/Email::Filter. It is designed to be a drop-in replacement for procmail, with a bit less cryptic syntax. cheers -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /etc/aliases
Hi Haines, El Wed, 12 Dec 2018 12:43:29 -0500 Haines Brown escribió: > On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 02:10:24PM +0100, Gonzalo Pérez de Olaguer Córdoba > wrote: > > Hi Haines, > > > > El Wed, 12 Dec 2018 07:18:35 -0500 > > Haines Brown escribió: > > > > > In debian I had the file /etc/aliases with more or less standard > > > entries, but don't know how it got there [...] > > > > It is commony created during the installation by debian-installer > > (and I see that devuan-installer does the same). > > The devuan installer of Jessie (later upgraded to Ascii) did not > do it in my case. I should have been more accurate: where I see /etc/aliases is in ascii installs that include exim4. No idea what the jessie installer does. And looking at an ascii install made some time ago, just with ssh server and standard packages installed in the tasksel phase (IIRC), there is no /etc/aliases nor exim4. Now I see exim4 in Devuan is not standard priority anymore. > > Try 'dpkg-reconfigure exim4-config', maybe it creates it. > > No, I've run that command several times. I see code to do it in /var/lib/dpkg/info/exim4-config.* (perhaps it does it just in some cases). -- Gonzalo Pérez de Olaguer Córdoba s...@gpoc.es -=- buscando empleo desde 1988 -=- www.gpoc.es PGP: 3F87 CCE7 8B35 8C06 E637 2D57 5723 9984 718C A614 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] mailing list software
Quoting Jim Jackson (j...@franjam.org.uk): > Just an aside - what are the alternatives to procmail? > so far I've only found _maildrop_ as an in-line delivery filter. Most-often mentioned alternative LDAs (local delivery agents) are Maildrop, sieve[1], sortmail, and Dovecot LDA. (Me, I just persist in using Procmail.) The LWN.net article and comment thread (https://lwn.net/Articles/416901/) covers some of this. Note: If you look on Wikipedia, there's some confusion between LDAs and MDAs (mail delivery agents), things that do mail transport like IMAP and POP3 to -fetch- the mail. And, actually, LWN's Jon Corbet makes the same regrettable category error. (Damned kids. Get off my lawn, and don't kick my SMTP mail spool. ;-> ) [1] A filtering language rather than a utility as such. Specific implementations are catalogued here: http://sieve.info/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] A concrete proposal [was: Re: Drive-by critique]
On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 11:39:49AM -0800, spiralofhope wrote: > On Wed, 12 Dec 2018 12:37:36 +0100 > KatolaZ wrote: > > > If anybody is wondering "how can I help Devuan" and is ready to do > > something concrete in that direction, putting together such a simple > > webpage would be a valuable contribution. > > I don't know how much I believe this myself, but.. > > Anyone who is wondering how they can help but can't hunt to figure > out the basics on their own is probably not going to contribute much or > for long. Literally anybody can help with putting that page up. There is no needed specific knowledge. We just need to: - identify a set of "features" or "use-cases" (architecture, live vs non-live, internet available at install time or not, desktop vs server, expert vs novice, multiple vs single installs, customised vs "standard", etc); - assign those use-cases to each of the images; - formulate a question for each "feature" which is used to narrow down the set of choices; - write the actual webpage (keeping it as simple as possible: this is the only strictly technical part); - Ask people to take the "survey" and report feedback. I am sure any Devuaner can help with one or more of those tasks. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] A concrete proposal [was: Re: Drive-by critique]
On Wed, 12 Dec 2018 12:37:36 +0100 KatolaZ wrote: > If anybody is wondering "how can I help Devuan" and is ready to do > something concrete in that direction, putting together such a simple > webpage would be a valuable contribution. I don't know how much I believe this myself, but.. Anyone who is wondering how they can help but can't hunt to figure out the basics on their own is probably not going to contribute much or for long. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Drive-by critique
On Wed, 12 Dec 2018 03:14:39 -0800 Rick Moen wrote: > If you want to have more devs, you need to attract a larger > userbase. > > I'm surprised to see Eric advance this non-sequitur. Open source > projects attract developers because their needs and objectives (or the > needs and objectives of their employers, which amounts to the same > thing) are met and served. Sure, some users will help in their own way, if only to encourage, but signal:noise increases. Hell, sometimes having more users will _drive away_ devs, because of real or perceived pressures. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Drive-by critique
On 2018-12-12 09:22, KatolaZ wrote: And please find below a more detailed explanation on the motivations behind each image: - netinst exist because it's the preferred way of installing minimal systems and servers; - the install DVD ISO exists because there are many users asking for a single medium that they can download once and install many times (e.g., due to bandwidth restrictions), and supports more than just XFCE; - the 3-cdrom set exists because we had many users asking for a smaller footprint (again, bandwidth is not cheap everywhere) set of images that they could use to install offline with a minimal XFCE desktop; - desktop-live exists because many people asked for a live Devuan version which could be easily tried and installed. This is also the preferred Devuan flavour used in reviews; - minimal-live was thought as a recovery tool and has a specific focus on accessibility (especially regarding visually-impaired and blind users), and provides a full-featured console-based setup; - so many embedded images exist because ARM vendors have not agreed on a common standard; - qcow, vagrant, and vcox images exist because many Devuan users like to have ready-to-use images for their VMs; - on top of those, there are also the usual mini.iso and netboot images, although not advertised on files.devuan.org. Quite likely, each single user would just prefer one of those images and ask themselves "oh why on Earth there are so many, indeed?". I actually use almost exclusively the mini.iso or the netboot images. The answer is that there is no single Devuan user, and no single Devuan use-case, as the statistics above confirm. What is perfect for somebody, is dumb or useless for somebody else, and vice-versa. The whole point is to make an effort to look at the bigger picture: Since Devuan is one of the few dpkg-based systemd-free distributions around, we have the *obligation* to cater for as many use cases as possible. HTH KatolaZ There is already a page on the website that covers much of this material: https://devuan.org/os/install It is already the very first link on the Download page in this section: Getting started Short install instructions for various platforms <<< Comprehensive upgrade and installation guides on dev1fanboy’s wiki Devuan ASCII release notes to help with the upgrade Perhaps a slight rewrite of that page and higher visibility - top of the page and big red letters - would suffice? golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /etc/aliases
On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 02:10:24PM +0100, Gonzalo Pérez de Olaguer Córdoba wrote: > Hi Haines, > > El Wed, 12 Dec 2018 07:18:35 -0500 > Haines Brown escribió: > > > In debian I had the file /etc/aliases with more or less standard > > entries, but don't know how it got there [...] > > It is commony created during the installation by debian-installer > (and I see that devuan-installer does the same). The devuan installer of Jessie (later upgraded to Ascii) did not do it in my case. > AFAIK, if you have exim installed you should have that file. > I can see it in installlations of devuan-ascii made using the > netboot iso. Agiain, my installation of exim4 did not do it. > Try 'dpkg-reconfigure exim4-config', maybe it creates it. No, I've run that command several times. > > Is this file a good thing to have or does devuan provide its > > functionality elsewhere? > > It redirects all system emails to root, and all root emails to > the user created during installation. I believe I'd best create the file manually. Haines ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Drive-by critique
On 12/12/2018 15:22, KatolaZ wrote: [snip] > > Please find below the stats of the actual number of downloads of each > ASCII image according to https://files.devuan.org in the last 14 days > (without taking into account the other 24 ISO mirrors): > > - netinst: 149 > - DVD ISO: 135 > - CDROM ISO : 99 > - desktop live : 180 > - minimal-live : 77 > - embedded (ARM) : 283 Interesting > - virtual: 72 > -- > Total: 995 [snip] Could I have a breakdown by ARM platform please ? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Drive-by critique
On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 02:40:11PM +, Roger Leigh wrote: [cut] > installation methods. Looking at > https://mirror.netzspielplatz.de/devuan/devuan_ascii_rc/installer-iso/ for > example. Do the separate CD and DVD images have much value given that they > only hold the tiniest fraction of the whole archive? Or is just one netinst > or dvd image sufficient for all needs (perhaps combined with a local mirror > or caching proxy server if you are doing multiple installations)? Could the > live images be further combined with the install images like Ubuntu does? If > you look at http://releases.ubuntu.com/18.04.1/ and > http://releases.ubuntu.com/18.04.1/ you can see that there's just one server > and desktop iso image per platform per release. It's pretty simple when > there's a single obvious choice to make, and they clearly thought how to > reduce the complexity as much as possible. (Note: none of this is a > criticism of the Devuan ascii images; the collection is quite impressive.) > Please find below the stats of the actual number of downloads of each ASCII image according to https://files.devuan.org in the last 14 days (without taking into account the other 24 ISO mirrors): - netinst: 149 - DVD ISO: 135 - CDROM ISO : 99 - desktop live : 180 - minimal-live : 77 - embedded (ARM) : 283 - virtual: 72 -- Total: 995 (yes, these are actual downloads not "file peeks", i.e., return code "200" with matching size). And please find below a more detailed explanation on the motivations behind each image: - netinst exist because it's the preferred way of installing minimal systems and servers; - the install DVD ISO exists because there are many users asking for a single medium that they can download once and install many times (e.g., due to bandwidth restrictions), and supports more than just XFCE; - the 3-cdrom set exists because we had many users asking for a smaller footprint (again, bandwidth is not cheap everywhere) set of images that they could use to install offline with a minimal XFCE desktop; - desktop-live exists because many people asked for a live Devuan version which could be easily tried and installed. This is also the preferred Devuan flavour used in reviews; - minimal-live was thought as a recovery tool and has a specific focus on accessibility (especially regarding visually-impaired and blind users), and provides a full-featured console-based setup; - so many embedded images exist because ARM vendors have not agreed on a common standard; - qcow, vagrant, and vcox images exist because many Devuan users like to have ready-to-use images for their VMs; - on top of those, there are also the usual mini.iso and netboot images, although not advertised on files.devuan.org. Quite likely, each single user would just prefer one of those images and ask themselves "oh why on Earth there are so many, indeed?". I actually use almost exclusively the mini.iso or the netboot images. The answer is that there is no single Devuan user, and no single Devuan use-case, as the statistics above confirm. What is perfect for somebody, is dumb or useless for somebody else, and vice-versa. The whole point is to make an effort to look at the bigger picture: Since Devuan is one of the few dpkg-based systemd-free distributions around, we have the *obligation* to cater for as many use cases as possible. HTH KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Drive-by critique
On 12/12/2018 11:14, Rick Moen wrote: A key part of the basis of Eric's argument is irritatingly and obviously untrue: If you want to have more devs, you need to attract a larger userbase. I'm surprised to see Eric advance this non-sequitur. I don't think it's a non sequitur, but I do think it's true as much as your points are true. I agree with both, and don't find them incompatible. Good, loyal developers are people who use your project and need more from it. Attracting more users doesn't /necessarily/ attract developers, but it's still a /prerequisite/ to attracting developers. It increases the likelihood that out of the total userbase, some fraction of that userbase will have the desire to contribute something to the project, and it also increases the /value/ of contributions if they are widely used. There are several reasons why this doesn't always hold true. Some projects are hostile to outside contributions. Others are so complex that there's a technical barrier to effective contributions. Others have cliques which don't welcome outsiders, or baroque submission processes which sap the will of any potential contributor. Or they lack the infrastructure and manpower to handle contributions effectively. So in all these cases, increasing the number of users doesn't help much. But this is a self-inflicted failure. But if a project is open to new contributors, welcomes and reviews patches in a timely manner, there's a positive reinforcement where new users are empowered and encouraged to do just this, and this both increases the number of users and developers at the same time. GNOME is an example of the former. I've had good quality, tested patches sit in its bugzilla for over a decade without review before they were summarily closed. This is a project which did not value contributions from outsiders. In the case of libgnomecanvas, they wasted the time of multiple developers writing at least six slightly different forks rather than review and apply contributed fixes to the canonical implementation to make it usable, featureful and performant. All of these forks, plus the original, are now basically dead with no users. They did not foster contributions and this led directly to a decline in both contributions and use of the libraries. It was issues like this that killed the prospects of GNOME for commercial software development in the mid 2000s, because we couldn't rely on it when issues couldn't be resolved in an effective and timely manner. CMake is an example of the latter. Turnaround time between submission and review is usually under 24 hours. It's been as little as 20 minutes. After addressing reviewer's comments and waiting for CI testing to complete, typical time between submission and merging for me has been between 24-36 hours depending upon the complexity, and for simple fixes has been as little as 60 minutes. This is a project which values code contribution from third parties, helps familiarise new developers with the project's codebase and policies, and this both encourages repeat contributions as well as grows the user base and developer base due to the utility of all this extra work going in over time. As a developer, it means I get bugfixes and new features into my users' hands immediately from git, or by the next routine point release. I and many other Debian developers got started because we needed new software packaging, or existing packages fixing or updating, and we got stuck in. For myself, I started by packaging my own upstream software releases for projects I belonged to, and went on from there to do much much more. We were users who became developers over time. While the new maintainer process is somewhat lengthy, more users means more people who find unmet needs that becoming a developer can fulfill. I started the process because other DDs were getting fed up of reviewing and uploading my work, and strongly encouraged it. I do believe the same underlying needs and motivations hold true for Devuan or any other distribution. I don't think Eric's points about ease of installation should be quite so trivially dismissed. It's not like these points haven't been raised and discussed at length by the debian-installer team for many years. Any barrier which prevents a user doing an installation and getting a working system will result in lost users who can't get over that hurdle. From difficulties finding the correct image, to making the bootable installation medium, to successfully completing the installation process. They all matter. This doesn't mean that you have to dumb things down to the lowest common denominator. But it does mean that you have to look at what is unnecessary complexity vs necessary complexity, and try to minimise the former. Reducing the number of installer images is beneficial so long as you don't sacrifice hardware support, as is having the most up to date
[DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
Media partitioning, formatting Configure mountpoints Install Bootloader Install Kernel, Modules & Firmware Install Shell & package management software Configure console Configure network Boot Discuss... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] mailing list software
On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Lars Nood??n via Dng (dng@lists.dyne.org): > > > It's probably a time that Procmail be retired, and thus anything based > > on it. There have been a lot of reports in recent years of serious, > > unsafe bugs in its processing. However, there is this comment about it > > from a former Procmail maintainer to consider: > > > > https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-ports&m=141634350915839&w=2 > > Upon examination, it turns out that the known flaws in Procmail lack any > credible exploitation scenario. The matter was covered on LWN.net a few > years ago, and I'm pretty sure nothing has changed substantively. > > (I've gone through this discussion several times since then on mailing > lists, and can dredge up details from those if necessary.) Just an aside - what are the alternatives to procmail? so far I've only found _maildrop_ as an in-line delivery filter. Jim ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /etc/aliases
On Wed, 12 Dec 2018 07:28:11 -0500 Haines Brown wrote: > Antony, its not in my /etc/mail/aliases. In your case, your sendmail > probably created it. But for those not using sendmail, is > the /etc/aliases file no longer userful or needed? I'm running postfix that uses it. Maybe other mtas too... Just my 2 cents, Luciano. -- /"\ /Via A. Salaino, 7 - 20144 Milano (Italy) \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN / PHONE : +39 2 485781 FAX: +39 2 48578250 X AGAINST HTML MAIL/ E-MAIL: posthams...@sublink.sublink.org / \ AND POSTINGS/ WWW: http://www.lesassaie.IT/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] ifstat.eth0 on Boot
Am Mittwoch, 12. Dezember 2018 schrieb Didier Kryn: > Le 12/12/2018 à 13:58, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp a écrit : > > Am Dienstag, 11. Dezember 2018 schrieb Gonzalo Pérez de Olaguer Córdoba: > >> Hi Michael K. > >> > >> El Fri, 7 Dec 2018 12:45:11 +0100 > >> "Michael K." escribió: > >> > >>> After a Dev1 Setup on a Laptop (whit eth0), i have to wait a long time > >>> for the eth0 on "cold boot". > >>> > >>> I "cold boot" my Laptop > >>> I look to the "Boot Messages" > >>> I see the following Msg: > >>> > >>> Configuring Network Interfaces ifup: Waiting for Lock on > >>> /run/network/ifstat.eth0 > >>> > >>> After 2 or 3 minutes to wait, the Laptop boot up, > >> Just in case this could help, I've been having this same *symptom* > >> on KVM virtual machines running ascii. > >> > >> My situation was eth0 being configured through DHCP and using the > >> dhcp client from the isc-dhcp-client package, which sends (maybe buggy) > >> DHCPDECLINE packets. > >> > >> My workaround was to replace isc-dhcp-client with pump. > >> > >> If you want more details, tell me and I will continue writing. > >> > >> Bye, > >> Salo. > >> > > Now this is a neet tick! It also solves the issue that booting hangs on the > > said message when no network cable is attached to eth0. > > > > Nik > > > Is it as simple as apt-get remove isc-dhcp-client; apt-get install > pump ? Yes, but I first installed pump and then purged isc-dhcp-client. -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] ifstat.eth0 on Boot
Le 12/12/2018 à 13:58, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp a écrit : Am Dienstag, 11. Dezember 2018 schrieb Gonzalo Pérez de Olaguer Córdoba: Hi Michael K. El Fri, 7 Dec 2018 12:45:11 +0100 "Michael K." escribió: After a Dev1 Setup on a Laptop (whit eth0), i have to wait a long time for the eth0 on "cold boot". I "cold boot" my Laptop I look to the "Boot Messages" I see the following Msg: Configuring Network Interfaces ifup: Waiting for Lock on /run/network/ifstat.eth0 After 2 or 3 minutes to wait, the Laptop boot up, Just in case this could help, I've been having this same *symptom* on KVM virtual machines running ascii. My situation was eth0 being configured through DHCP and using the dhcp client from the isc-dhcp-client package, which sends (maybe buggy) DHCPDECLINE packets. My workaround was to replace isc-dhcp-client with pump. If you want more details, tell me and I will continue writing. Bye, Salo. Now this is a neet tick! It also solves the issue that booting hangs on the said message when no network cable is attached to eth0. Nik Is it as simple as apt-get remove isc-dhcp-client; apt-get install pump ? Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /etc/aliases
Hi Haines, El Wed, 12 Dec 2018 07:18:35 -0500 Haines Brown escribió: > In debian I had the file /etc/aliases with more or less standard > entries, but don't know how it got there [...] It is commony created during the installation by debian-installer (and I see that devuan-installer does the same). Appart from some default aliases, it places one from root to the 'normal user' created during installation, so she receives all mail addressed (and aliased) to root. > (I didn't run sendmail or > procmail, but did run exim4). I now see that the file is missing in > devuan ASCII (where I also run exim4). AFAIK, if you have exim installed you should have that file. I can see it in installlations of devuan-ascii made using the netboot iso. Try 'dpkg-reconfigure exim4-config', maybe it creates it. > Is this file a good thing to have or does devuan provide its > functionality elsewhere? It redirects all system emails to root, and all root emails to the user created during installation. -- Gonzalo Pérez de Olaguer Córdoba s...@gpoc.es -=- buscando empleo desde 1988 -=- www.gpoc.es PGP: 3F87 CCE7 8B35 8C06 E637 2D57 5723 9984 718C A614 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] ifstat.eth0 on Boot
Am Dienstag, 11. Dezember 2018 schrieb Gonzalo Pérez de Olaguer Córdoba: > Hi Michael K. > > El Fri, 7 Dec 2018 12:45:11 +0100 > "Michael K." escribió: > > > After a Dev1 Setup on a Laptop (whit eth0), i have to wait a long time > > for the eth0 on "cold boot". > > > > I "cold boot" my Laptop > > I look to the "Boot Messages" > > I see the following Msg: > > > > Configuring Network Interfaces ifup: Waiting for Lock on > > /run/network/ifstat.eth0 > > > > After 2 or 3 minutes to wait, the Laptop boot up, > > Just in case this could help, I've been having this same *symptom* > on KVM virtual machines running ascii. > > My situation was eth0 being configured through DHCP and using the > dhcp client from the isc-dhcp-client package, which sends (maybe buggy) > DHCPDECLINE packets. > > My workaround was to replace isc-dhcp-client with pump. > > If you want more details, tell me and I will continue writing. > > Bye, > Salo. > Now this is a neet tick! It also solves the issue that booting hangs on the said message when no network cable is attached to eth0. Nik -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /etc/aliases
On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 07:28:11AM -0500, Haines Brown wrote: [cut] > > > Antony, its not in my /etc/mail/aliases. In your case, your sendmail > probably created it. But for those not using sendmail, is > the /etc/aliases file no longer userful or needed? > Dear Haines, as you know, /etc/aliases is normally used by MTAs. Now, there is no "preferred" MTA in Devuan[*], so /etc/aliases is useful only if your preferred MTA uses it/honour its content. The original sendmail did, postfix does, and IIRC opensmtpd does as well. On the other hand, qmail does not (it uses a series of separate files instead). In a word, it's up to you to decide if you need an /etc/aliases, and up to your preferred MTA to agree with you or not ;) My2Cents KatolaZ [*] I know that for some arcane reason Debian seems to be recommending exim4, but seriously, I think that exim4 is far larger and far more complex to admin and maintain that postfix or qmail, for no apparent gain. -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /etc/aliases
On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 01:21:46PM +0100, Antony Stone wrote: > On Wednesday 12 December 2018 at 13:18:35, Haines Brown wrote: > > > In debian I had the file /etc/aliases with more or less standard > > entries, but don't know how it got there (I didn't run sendmail or > > procmail, but did run exim4). I now see that the file is missing in > > devuan ASCII (where I also run exim4). > > I'm running Ascii with sendmail, and /etc/aliases does exist. > > > Is this file a good thing to have or does devuan provide its > > functionality elsewhere? > > Have you checked to see whether it's under /etc/mail/aliases instead? Antony, its not in my /etc/mail/aliases. In your case, your sendmail probably created it. But for those not using sendmail, is the /etc/aliases file no longer userful or needed? Haines ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /etc/aliases
On Wednesday 12 December 2018 at 13:18:35, Haines Brown wrote: > In debian I had the file /etc/aliases with more or less standard > entries, but don't know how it got there (I didn't run sendmail or > procmail, but did run exim4). I now see that the file is missing in > devuan ASCII (where I also run exim4). I'm running Ascii with sendmail, and /etc/aliases does exist. > Is this file a good thing to have or does devuan provide its > functionality elsewhere? Have you checked to see whether it's under /etc/mail/aliases instead? Antony. -- Is it venison for dinner again? Oh deer. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] /etc/aliases
In debian I had the file /etc/aliases with more or less standard entries, but don't know how it got there (I didn't run sendmail or procmail, but did run exim4). I now see that the file is missing in devuan ASCII (where I also run exim4). Is this file a good thing to have or does devuan provide its functionality elsewhere? Haines Brown ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] ifstat.eth0 on Boot
Hi Michael K. El Fri, 7 Dec 2018 12:45:11 +0100 "Michael K." escribió: > After a Dev1 Setup on a Laptop (whit eth0), i have to wait a long time > for the eth0 on "cold boot". > > I "cold boot" my Laptop > I look to the "Boot Messages" > I see the following Msg: > > Configuring Network Interfaces ifup: Waiting for Lock on > /run/network/ifstat.eth0 > > After 2 or 3 minutes to wait, the Laptop boot up, Just in case this could help, I've been having this same *symptom* on KVM virtual machines running ascii. My situation was eth0 being configured through DHCP and using the dhcp client from the isc-dhcp-client package, which sends (maybe buggy) DHCPDECLINE packets. My workaround was to replace isc-dhcp-client with pump. If you want more details, tell me and I will continue writing. Bye, Salo. -- Gonzalo Pérez de Olaguer Córdoba s...@gpoc.es -=- buscando empleo desde 1988 -=- www.gpoc.es PGP: 3F87 CCE7 8B35 8C06 E637 2D57 5723 9984 718C A614 pgph5Fg7tqZFG.pgp Description: Firma digital OpenPGP ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] A concrete proposal [was: Re: Drive-by critique]
Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org): > I would really like to avoid starting yet-another-lengthy-flame which > has little chance of being useful at all. Writing 150 emails about > which points of that post are good and which are bad might possibly be > useful to sharpen our own rhetoric weapons, but will not further the > achievement of Devuan's mission by a single bit. Fortunately, that's _not_ going to happen here, because the rant in question just is out of touch with Devuan and with the realities of maintaining a distribution. > I have a concrete proposal instead, actually coming from a reply by > Centurion_Dan to that thread on Dev1Galaxy. The proposal is as > follows: > > it would be probably good to have a simple webpage for Devuan > newcomers that asks a couple of questions about the user > intentions/use-case and suggests the most appropriate install image > to use among the available ones. I see now that Centurion-Dan posted this to https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=13190#p13190, where his full comments can be read. It's a tribute to the high quality and dedication of Devuan Project's contributors that so much useful and creative material ends up on its Web forum. I'll confess that I consider this so vanishingly rare that until this past evening I'd not plowed through Eric's drive-by comments much, and hasn't read others' follow-on comments there at all. > If anybody is wondering "how can I help Devuan" and is ready to do > something concrete in that direction, putting together such a simple > webpage would be a valuable contribution. Discussions are good and can > be entertaining sometimes, but actions are the only way to improve > things. Hear, hear. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] A concrete proposal [was: Re: Drive-by critique]
On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 03:14:39AM -0800, Rick Moen wrote: [cut] > > What Eric left for us: > https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=13144#p13144 > Dear Rick, I would really like to avoid starting yet-another-lengthy-flame which has little chance of being useful at all. Writing 150 emails about which points of that post are good and which are bad might possibly be useful to sharpen our own rhetoric weapons, but will not further the achievement of Devuan's mission by a single bit. I have a concrete proposal instead, actually coming from a reply by Centurion_Dan to that thread on Dev1Galaxy. The proposal is as follows: it would be probably good to have a simple webpage for Devuan newcomers that asks a couple of questions about the user intentions/use-case and suggests the most appropriate install image to use among the available ones. If anybody is wondering "how can I help Devuan" and is ready to do something concrete in that direction, putting together such a simple webpage would be a valuable contribution. Discussions are good and can be entertaining sometimes, but actions are the only way to improve things. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] mailing list software
On 12/12/18 1:25 PM, Rick Moen wrote: > I wrote: > >> Upon examination, it turns out that the known flaws in Procmail lack any >> credible exploitation scenario. The matter was covered on LWN.net a few >> years ago, and I'm pretty sure nothing has changed substantively. >> >> (I've gone through this discussion several times since then on mailing >> lists, and can dredge up details from those if necessary.) > > One was a year ago on this mailing list: [...] Got it. https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20180710.164111.458c1663.en.html Thanks. /Lars ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] mailing list software
I wrote: > Upon examination, it turns out that the known flaws in Procmail lack any > credible exploitation scenario. The matter was covered on LWN.net a few > years ago, and I'm pretty sure nothing has changed substantively. > > (I've gone through this discussion several times since then on mailing > lists, and can dredge up details from those if necessary.) One was a year ago on this mailing list: Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl): > Note: there indeed was one security vulnerability, but it was > discovered in > 2014, while all the "it's dead" brouchacha happened years before. https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2014-3618 It's a heap-based buffer overflow in /usr/bin/formail (specifically in formisc.c). The threat model is a bit far-fetched, IMO. (Normally, LDA handling only rarely involves formail, which is a filter for munging messages.) Distros immediately patched it. AFAIK, basically instead of a single upstream, there is timely maintenace by various distributions. Which makes the 'Oh noes! procmail isn't safe!' noises a bit exaggerated. https://serverfault.com/questions/876336/is-it-safe-to-use-procmail-in-2017 And then again in July 2018: Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org): > Again, links before opinions: > > https://sourceforge.net/p/net-tools/code/ci/master/tree/ > > net-tools might be obsolete for many functions, but it's still > developed, and is surely not "unmaintained" since 17 years ago. Argue with Jon Corbet, then: https://lwn.net/Articles/710533/ That was last year. I don't believe there's been a substantial turnaround despite some checkins. (If I'm mistaken, I'lll find out when I hear people whose judgment I trust say 'A miracle happened and net-tools has been fully made reasonable to rely on, again.') > Let's make another example. procmail Sure, let's discuss procmail. Unlike net-tools, it's a very modestly scoped codebase and not central to system security. Since being orphaned, it's accumulated only two unfixed bugs with alleged security implications that informed observers consider seriously farfetched, not to mention actually being bugs in an Email Sanitizer project and Horde, not procmail itself. So, many including me consider it 'completed' more than it is 'orphaned', and continue to happily use it rather than aspiring replacement such as Maildrop, sieve, and sortmail. Jon Corbet was on the glass-half-empty side of the discussion when he covered procmail's status, but be sure to read the comment thread. https://lwn.net/Articles/416901/ > Is anybody here ready to claim that procmail is useless and we should > replace it just because its development ended 17 years ago, producing > a damn virtually perfect piece of software, that does *one* thing and > does it *well*, has been included in all the Linux and *BSD > distributions in the last 25 years, and did not require any > maintenance at all for 17 long years? o_O Certainly not me. But that didn't stop you from pretending as if I'd advanced that argument. Which was a waste of time on your part, but I hope you enjoyed the typing practice. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] mailing list software
On 12/12/18 1:13 PM, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Lars Nood??n via Dng (dng@lists.dyne.org): > >> It's probably a time that Procmail be retired, and thus anything based >> on it. There have been a lot of reports in recent years of serious, >> unsafe bugs in its processing. However, there is this comment about it >> from a former Procmail maintainer to consider: >> >> https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-ports&m=141634350915839&w=2 > > Upon examination, it turns out that the known flaws in Procmail lack any > credible exploitation scenario. The matter was covered on LWN.net a few > years ago, and I'm pretty sure nothing has changed substantively. > > (I've gone through this discussion several times since then on mailing > lists, and can dredge up details from those if necessary.) I found only this one on LWN: "Reports of procmail's death are not terribly exaggerated" https://lwn.net/Articles/416901/ I liked Procmail back when I was using it, but that was a long time ago. Neither now nor then could I look under the hood so I defer to others on that. /Lars ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Drive-by critique
A very odd thing happened on #devuan, and then an incrementally odder thing on dev1galaxy, on the day before Pearl Harbour Day.Both involved a whirlwind visit by Eric Raymond -- who came and went with some quite ranty opinions. Being sleepy at the time, I good-naturedly promised Eric I'd raise his points on Devuan's mailing list. Mulling over same, though, I've had to have second thoughts -- and to my regret can't keep that promise, but will post some observations. What Eric left for us: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=13144#p13144 The big problem is that Eric wants to hector Devuan into being things it isn't, that its careful four years of planning have not aimed towards. I doubt tat he took the trouble to properly understand Devuan's chosen mission and strategy. (I think I basically understand it, tough I'm a newcomer.) A key part of the basis of Eric's argument is irritatingly and obviously untrue: If you want to have more devs, you need to attract a larger userbase. I'm surprised to see Eric advance this non-sequitur. Open source projects attract developers because their needs and objectives (or the needs and objectives of their employers, which amounts to the same thing) are met and served. Moreover, that is a truth that has long been advanced by Open Source Initiative, which Eric co-founded, and I'm pretty sure it's also an insight in Eric's own writings. Anyway, in effect, Eric wishes a systemd-free distro existed, one he didn't realise can't be Devuan, that has only _one_ installer image (per supported CPU architecture), not several to choose among, that merges in all possible proprietary firmware BLOBs, and that consistently uses a cutting-edge installer kernel and installed kernel (hence, maximum possible new-hardware support). I don't think Eric has any clue about the developer cost of maintaining bespoke installer images, or about the weird bugs and instability that can come with bleeding-edge kernel instead of (as Devuan and Debian use) stable kernel versions with backported fixes. Also, he may not know about the developer cost of too many avoidable differences from Debian, our sister distro whose work Devuan is smart enough not to duplicate if possible, and where possible works with. Someone advocating views like Eric's might be able to make a case for them if he/she were willing to stick around and pitch in to make them happen, but in that area one finds the other problem: His advice appears to have been on a drive-by basis, near as I can tell. I'm put in mind of one of the traditional Debian answers when a visitor gets demanding and wants to know when something will be fixed or released: 'Sooner if you help.' ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] mailing list software
Quoting Lars Nood??n via Dng (dng@lists.dyne.org): > It's probably a time that Procmail be retired, and thus anything based > on it. There have been a lot of reports in recent years of serious, > unsafe bugs in its processing. However, there is this comment about it > from a former Procmail maintainer to consider: > > https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-ports&m=141634350915839&w=2 Upon examination, it turns out that the known flaws in Procmail lack any credible exploitation scenario. The matter was covered on LWN.net a few years ago, and I'm pretty sure nothing has changed substantively. (I've gone through this discussion several times since then on mailing lists, and can dredge up details from those if necessary.) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] mailing list software
On 12/12/18 1:14 AM, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Martin Steigerwald (mar...@lichtvoll.de): [...] >> Ah, I found it: smartlist. It appears to be a small, lightweight C >> application. Debian is using this. > > Nicely summarised. Yes, SmartList seems to have carved out a neat > little niche of modest functionality. It's built atop Procmail, and [...] It's probably a time that Procmail be retired, and thus anything based on it. There have been a lot of reports in recent years of serious, unsafe bugs in its processing. However, there is this comment about it from a former Procmail maintainer to consider: https://marc.info/?l=openbsd-ports&m=141634350915839&w=2 /Lars ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] About gnuinos ascii
On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 12:36:23AM +0100, aitor wrote: [cut] > > Here you are the resulting image generated by the live-sdk, including > debian-installer: > > http://gnuinos.org/gnuinos%20ascii/ > Great job aitor! HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
