Re: [DNG] [OT] Re: Embedded devuan (was Re: Devuan with usr merge?)

[onefang]

On 2021-11-17 19:57:08, Steve Litt wrote:
> Florian Zieboll via Dng said on Wed, 17 Nov 2021 23:37:44 +0100
> 
> >Inspired by earlier mails in the original "usr merge"-thread, an
> >experiment I had been thinking of for a sleepless night was installing
> >busybox in an initramfs. I suspect Steve facepalming, but be assured:
> >This is canceled now. 
> 
> I will never, ever, EVER facepalm over somebody doing DIY
> experimentation. Now, when you speak of initramfs or of busybox, you
> speak with authority. You've taken a step forward from the dwobes
> parroting the nonsense mouthed by others in their party. 
> 
> I was even hoping that with Busybox inside an initramfs, you'd have
> created an "initramfs lite" that's simple to understand, debug and use.
> In other words, I was hoping you'd prove me wrong :-). It has
> consistently been people doing what you did that caused me to change my
> mind.

Um, initramfs already uses busybox.  Or it can, it's an option in
initramfs-tools.

-- 
A big old stinking pile of genius that no one wants
coz there are too many silver coated monkeys in the world.
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Re: [DNG] [OT] Re: Embedded devuan (was Re: Devuan with usr merge?)

[Steve Litt]

Florian Zieboll via Dng said on Wed, 17 Nov 2021 23:37:44 +0100

>Inspired by earlier mails in the original "usr merge"-thread, an
>experiment I had been thinking of for a sleepless night was installing
>busybox in an initramfs. I suspect Steve facepalming, but be assured:
>This is canceled now. 

I will never, ever, EVER facepalm over somebody doing DIY
experimentation. Now, when you speak of initramfs or of busybox, you
speak with authority. You've taken a step forward from the dwobes
parroting the nonsense mouthed by others in their party. 

I was even hoping that with Busybox inside an initramfs, you'd have
created an "initramfs lite" that's simple to understand, debug and use.
In other words, I was hoping you'd prove me wrong :-). It has
consistently been people doing what you did that caused me to change my
mind.

As long as we're on the subject, for those who are new to Devuan
(joined up after maybe June 2015), here's some DIY experimentation I
did that enabled me to authoritatively swat aside nonsense from
PoetterParrots:

http://troubleshooters.com/linux/init/manjaro_experiments.htm 

SteveT

Steve Litt 
Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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[DNG] [OT] Re: Embedded devuan (was Re: Devuan with usr merge?)

[Florian Zieboll via Dng]

Earlier in this thread, 
on Tue, 16 Nov 2021 09:29:11 +0100
Didier Kryn  wrote:

>     Of course, if you want to install the distro for another
> architecture, you must use debootstrap --foreign
> 
> (...)
> 
>     Another experiment with great fun is to just install busybox in a
> chroot. 
> 
> (...)
> 
> musl libc


Hello Didier (and all),

thank you very much for your elaborate mail and the interesting
discussion following it - and sorry for my late reply: I'm kind of
absorbed by work and life 'afk' in general. While I am really glad to
have found a job in the public sector (field service for Munich's
communal schools and nurseries), it's somewhat ironic, that one of my
first tasks there was helping to roll back the last remnants of LiMux.
The first time ever, that I replaced a Linux with that unutterable
gimme-an-inch-OS. A noteworthy detail in this context is, how speedy
the network links are getting upgraded now: In some places from slow,
but (until now, rofl) sufficiently functional 1 or 2 Mbit/s connections
with up to four(!) active workstations attached.

Inspired by earlier mails in the original "usr merge"-thread, an
experiment I had been thinking of for a sleepless night was installing
busybox in an initramfs. I suspect Steve facepalming, but be assured:
This is canceled now. Thanks again for all the good input - I'll sure
be back with less off topic mails, when I am back to it!

Libre Grüße,
Florian
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Re: [DNG] Embedded devuan (was Re: Devuan with usr merge?)

[Didier Kryn]

Le 17/11/2021 à 22:31, Steve Litt a écrit :
> musl is a C library revealing various OS functionalities and various
> standard ways of doing things. It and libc are replacements for each
> other. musl makes smaller and more efficient programs, from what I
> understand.

    What is called libc in general is the C runtime library, which
provides various ordinary functions and a wrapper between C applications
and the OS. Years ago, Linux kernel people developped their own libc
because unsatisfied from glibc (the Gnu version of libc) and they called
it "libc" which was confusing but this was not for use by the kernel.
This library is now abandonned.

    The kernel itself does not make use of any library at all. The libc
is meant for userspace applications written in C. It is easier to
interface C runtime to the kernel because the kernel is also written in
C. Other languages come with their own runtime library. Ada runtime
library interfaces with the libc rather than directly with the kernel,
because the most dificult is already done.

    The most popular versions of libc are glibc, musl, uClibc, dietlibc.

--     Didier

   


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Re: [DNG] Embedded devuan (was Re: Devuan with usr merge?)

[Steve Litt]

o1bigtenor said on Wed, 17 Nov 2021 06:03:47 -0600

>On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 6:39 PM Steve Litt 
>wrote:
>
>> Didier Kryn said on Tue, 16 Nov 2021 14:36:23 +0100
>>
>>  
>> >Yes, very active and with pretty constructive exchanges and
>> >collaboration with Glibc. I'm on the mailing list. See
>> >http://musl.libc.org   
>>
>> LOL, from what I hear, a musl compiled Linux will not work with
>> systemd.
>>  
>
>
>Apologies - - - - - but 'what' is "a musl compiled Linux"?

Hi o1bigtenor,

musl is a C library revealing various OS functionalities and various
standard ways of doing things. It and libc are replacements for each
other. musl makes smaller and more efficient programs, from what I
understand.

Almost all of the Linux kernel and surrounding apps are written in C
and compiled by a C compiler using a library such as musl or libc. My
phrase "a musl compiled Linux" was meant to indicate a Linux
distribution compiled against musl instead of the usual glibc.

Void Linux is one of the few distros that offers a musl-compiled
version of Linux. I use their libc version as the path of least
resistance, but if I wanted to, I could have a musl compiled Void Linux.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful
Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: [DNG] Embedded devuan (was Re: Devuan with usr merge?)

[Didier Kryn]

Le 17/11/2021 à 13:03, o1bigtenor via Dng a écrit :
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 6:39 PM Steve Litt  > wrote:
>
> Didier Kryn said on Tue, 16 Nov 2021 14:36:23 +0100
>
>
> >    Yes, very active and with pretty constructive exchanges and
> >collaboration with Glibc. I'm on the mailing list. See
> >http://musl.libc.org   >
>
> LOL, from what I hear, a musl compiled Linux will not work with
> systemd. 
>
>
>
> Apologies - - - - - but 'what' is "a musl compiled Linux"?
>
    The libc is an essential part of a distribution. It is not only a
pure library of facilities like string manipulation or mathematics but a
friendly interface to the OS. It provides an interface to all system
calls, plus the C standard IO, memory allocation, and other facilities.

The name Debian Gnu Linux tells that not only a big part of the
applications come from Gnu, but also the libc. All applications are
dynamically linked against glibc. A musl-compiled distro might be
called, say, Alpine Musl Linux, even if binutils and many other
applications (eg Emacs) are compiled from Gnu sources, but all are
linked against musl.

    This difference is systematic in the name of the compiler, eg
x86_64-musl-linux vs x86_64-gnu-linux.

    The incompatibility of musl and systemd is not due to an hostility
from musl author, but to a persistent attitude of systemd developpers of
bad programming. Musl is, by intention, hostile to bad programming:
everything specified as unknown behaviour (UB) by POSIX will end up
sooner or later by a crash. AFAIU systemd relies in some non-conformant
pecularities of glibc. The authors might easily correct that be won't,
which is their consistent attitude towards the rest of the world.

--     Didier


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Re: [DNG] Embedded devuan (was Re: Devuan with usr merge?)

[o1bigtenor via Dng]

On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 6:39 PM Steve Litt 
wrote:

> Didier Kryn said on Tue, 16 Nov 2021 14:36:23 +0100
>
>
> >Yes, very active and with pretty constructive exchanges and
> >collaboration with Glibc. I'm on the mailing list. See
> >http://musl.libc.org 
>
> LOL, from what I hear, a musl compiled Linux will not work with
> systemd.
>


Apologies - - - - - but 'what' is "a musl compiled Linux"?

TIA
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