Re: [DNG] article about devuan
On Sat, 2022-07-30 at 17:10 +0200, Antony Stone wrote: > On Saturday 30 July 2022 at 16:47:59, Steve Litt wrote: > > > Inconvenient to newbies? LOL, compare it to *too or Slackware :-) > > Have I missed something - are there spinoffs from Gentoo which also end in > too? > > Just intrigued at your (twice, now) use of the wildcard. Gentoo was created by Daniel Robbins. At some point in time Daniel left Gentoo and created Funtoo. They're similar. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] About the majoritys choise (Re: article about devuan)
On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 20:36:27 +0200 (CEST) k...@aspodata.se wrote: > If you place a million monkeys in front of typewriters, > Shakespears complete works will eventually emerge; > well, Internet has proved that to be wrong. There might have actually been grand creations within the internet, but that signal is hidden by the noise, search, and content gatekeepers; and we just can't find them. I once wrote a comment that helps explain dark matter. I'm pretty sure it's not on a YouTube video and is on a blog article with some third-party comment hoster. Maybe it starts with a G or a Q? At any rate I forgot it, but it's on the internet somewhere. Don't worry, I'll publish some ideas in a fantasy/scifi fiction novel in a couple of decades. You won't find that either unless you know me, and even then you'd have to wade through a few books in the series first. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] article about devuan
On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 08:20:51 -0400 Steve Litt wrote: > > "To use and understand Devuan, you must change your mindset and > > perception of the distribution’s > > core beliefs. Because, in my perspective, Devuan is first > > philosophy and secondarily a Linux distribution." > > > > T H A T ' S J U S T I N S A N E ! > > Nobody, and I mean nobody, goes to the incredible trouble of making a > distro to express a philosophy. I owe a debt of gratitude to the VUAs > who, against all odds, forked Debian and recruited enough people to > make that fork a success. "The Unix Way" is an example of a philosophy that either drives technical decisions or explains them. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] article about devuan
On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 13:14:10 +0200 tito via Dng wrote: > Of the listed distributions only MX and Slackware rank betteer on > distrowatch.com, the other rank at about the same positions as Devuan. I never did understand distrowatch. Plenty of people just go to their distro directly, so distrowatch has nothing to track. Articles like those to be smarter about this fact. > https://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=popularity > > The DistroWatch Page Hit Ranking statistics are a light-hearted way > of measuring the popularity of Linux distributions and other free > operating systems among the visitors of this website. They correlate > neither to usage nor to quality and should not be used to measure the > market share of distributions. They simply show the number of times a > distribution page on DistroWatch was accessed each day, nothing more. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] *too (Re: article about devuan)
Antony: > On Saturday 30 July 2022 at 16:47:59, Steve Litt wrote: > > Inconvenient to newbies? LOL, compare it to *too or Slackware :-) > Have I missed something - are there spinoffs from Gentoo which also end in > too? ... http://www.funtoo.org/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GentooFamilyTree1210.svg Regards, /Karl Hammar ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] About the majoritys choise (Re: article about devuan)
olbigtenor: ... > Dunno as to the real reason but I've given up on trying to get others to > switch from M$ Win - - - - the argument always gets to 'the majority > of users just can't be wrong' to which there is no real effective counter. A million flies can't be wrong, shit is good. If you place a million monkeys in front of typewriters, Shakespears complete works will eventually emerge; well, Internet has proved that to be wrong. Regards, /Karl Hammar ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] article about devuan
Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 30, 2022, at 11:10 AM, Antony Stone > wrote: > > On Saturday 30 July 2022 at 16:47:59, Steve Litt wrote: > >> Inconvenient to newbies? LOL, compare it to *too or Slackware :-) > > Have I missed something - are there spinoffs from Gentoo which also end in > too? > > Just intrigued at your (twice, now) use of the wildcard. > My big complaint with systemd is that it turns Linux into a boot loader for systemd. systemd runs every in the foreground which places you at its mercy and how well systemd multitasks, which os not vert well. Cheers, Curtis ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] article about devuan
On Saturday 30 July 2022 at 16:47:59, Steve Litt wrote: > Inconvenient to newbies? LOL, compare it to *too or Slackware :-) Have I missed something - are there spinoffs from Gentoo which also end in too? Just intrigued at your (twice, now) use of the wildcard. Antony. -- You can spend the whole of your life trying to be popular, but at the end of the day the size of the crowd at your funeral will be largely dictated by the weather. - Frank Skinner Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] article about devuan
On Sat, 2022-07-30 at 16:42 +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 30/07/2022 à 12:07, Steve Litt a écrit : > > I thought most of the Devuan review was accurate and complimentary. However, > > I've > > never thought of Devuan as "retro" or particularly inconvenient for newbies. > > It's Debian itself which is known as inconvenient to newbies, hence > Devuan, of course (~: Inconvenient to newbies? LOL, compare it to *too or Slackware :-) SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] article about devuan
On Sat, 2022-07-30 at 09:26 -0300, Fernando M. Maresca via Dng wrote: > I, however, really don't know if the author is malicious or simply ignorant; > these days there's a hord of people that think Debian's difficult. I > don't know why. I can think of only one reason: Debian's idealogical purity preventing proprietary drivers and firmware from being loaded on installation. And maybe Ubuntu and Mint have better hardware recognition. Hey, I used Ubuntu for six years: It's dead-bang easy. But sooner or later you outgrow all that handholding that now seems like holding you back, and it's time to move to Devuan or Void. And if those ever seem too handholding, Slackware, *too, Arch variants without systemd, and *BSD beckon. You know why I quit Ubuntu and switched to Debian? Because for the life of me, I couldn't get rid of Plymouth and couldn't boot to CLI without renaming executables or putting exit 0 in shellscripts. When you're doing stuff like that, it's time to move away from Ubuntu. Ironically, just as I moved to Debian, Debian moved to systemd. His criticism about "oldschool, not gui enough" is better applied to Void (and of course Slackware) than Devuan. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] article about devuan
Le 30/07/2022 à 12:07, Steve Litt a écrit : I thought most of the Devuan review was accurate and complimentary. However, I've never thought of Devuan as "retro" or particularly inconvenient for newbies. It's Debian itself which is known as inconvenient to newbies, hence Devuan, of course (~: ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] article about devuan
On Sat, Jul 30, 2022 at 7:26 AM Fernando M. Maresca via Dng wrote: > > > On Sat, Jul 30, 2022 at 01:14:10PM +0200, tito via Dng wrote: > > On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 06:07:53 -0400 > > Steve Litt wrote: > > > > > On Fri, 2022-07-29 at 14:27 +0200, tito via Dng wrote: > > > > https://linuxiac.com/best-systemd-free-linux-distributions/ > > > > > > > > I think the author knows nothing about devuan and spreads FUD > > > > > > > > > > I thought most of the Devuan review was accurate and complimentary. > > > However, I've > > > never thought of Devuan as "retro" or particularly inconvenient for > > > newbies. > > > > > > SteveT > > > > Hi, > > > > FUD:"And now we come to the last Linux distro on our list, where things get > > extreme. > > This is because we’re not just discussing another systemd-free Linux > > distribution, > > but one on a mission against systemd. But first, let me explain what this > > is all about." > > ... > > > +1 > > I, however, really don't know if the author is malicious or simply ignorant; > these days there's a hord of people that think Debian's difficult. I > don't know why. > My guess regarding why people find Debian difficult is that its still not a 'pure' gui solution. In other words everything is measured against M$ Win where almost everything done by joe average user is gui. I haven't been in the Mac world for over 20 years and it was that way there then - - - dunno about today. The author is one who bemoans the loss of his beloved windows even as her runs a linux distro - - - that would be my understanding. Likely he switched to a linux distro to keep up with what he perceived as the 'cool guys' not for any other real reason. Dunno as to the real reason but I've given up on trying to get others to switch from M$ Win - - - - the argument always gets to 'the majority of users just can't be wrong' to which there is no real effective counter. Regards ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] article about devuan
On Sat, Jul 30, 2022 at 01:14:10PM +0200, tito via Dng wrote: > On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 06:07:53 -0400 > Steve Litt wrote: > > > On Fri, 2022-07-29 at 14:27 +0200, tito via Dng wrote: > > > https://linuxiac.com/best-systemd-free-linux-distributions/ > > > > > > I think the author knows nothing about devuan and spreads FUD > > > > > > > I thought most of the Devuan review was accurate and complimentary. > > However, I've > > never thought of Devuan as "retro" or particularly inconvenient for newbies. > > > > SteveT > > Hi, > > FUD:"And now we come to the last Linux distro on our list, where things get > extreme. > This is because we’re not just discussing another systemd-free Linux > distribution, > but one on a mission against systemd. But first, let me explain what this is > all about." > ... +1 I, however, really don't know if the author is malicious or simply ignorant; these days there's a hord of people that think Debian's difficult. I don't know why. Best, -- Fernando M. Maresca - - - - - - - - - - - - - ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] article about devuan
On Sat, 2022-07-30 at 13:14 +0200, tito via Dng wrote: > On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 06:07:53 -0400 > Steve Litt wrote: > > > On Fri, 2022-07-29 at 14:27 +0200, tito via Dng wrote: > > > https://linuxiac.com/best-systemd-free-linux-distributions/ > > > > > > I think the author knows nothing about devuan and spreads FUD > > > > > > > I thought most of the Devuan review was accurate and complimentary. However, > > I've > > never thought of Devuan as "retro" or particularly inconvenient for newbies. > > > > SteveT > > Hi, > > FUD:"And now we come to the last Linux distro on our list, where things get > extreme. > This is because we’re not just discussing another systemd-free Linux > distribution, > but one on a mission against systemd. But first, let me explain what this is > all > about." > > Devuan is on a mission for init system freedom not against something. We, technically yes, but I've met few people in the Devuan sphere who don't have a negative opinion of systemd. Also, if I remember correctly, and golinux can check my memories, the original debianfork.org "don't panic and keep on forking" page didn't use the words "init freedom", and was pretty negative about systemd. By the way, as you probably know, I'm both pro-init-freedom and anti-systemd. > > FUD: "Unfortunately, its widespread adoption is hampered by several factors." > > Of the listed distributions only MX and Slackware rank betteer on > distrowatch.com, > the other > rank at about the same positions as Devuan. True. > > "First, due to the distribution’s establishment by a group of old-school Linux > administrators, > many of its features are reminiscent of Linux distributions from 15 or more > years > ago." Yeah, that statement's stupid. EVERY distro has plenty of things that haven't changed in 15 years. And bitching about it being old invokes the "Appeal to Novelty" logical fallacy. > > "To use and understand Devuan, you must change your mindset and perception of > the > distribution’s > core beliefs. Because, in my perspective, Devuan is first philosophy and > secondarily a Linux distribution." > T H A T ' S J U S T I N S A N E ! Nobody, and I mean nobody, goes to the incredible trouble of making a distro to express a philosophy. I owe a debt of gratitude to the VUAs who, against all odds, forked Debian and recruited enough people to make that fork a success. > FUD: to use devuan you have just to keep the mindset you had with previous > versions of Debian. I think one selling point of Devuan is that it's a Debian workalike in many ways. A lot of people loved Debian but hated systemd. Devuan gave those people an alternative not involving switching to BSD, Void, MX, *too, etc. The author just expressed this selling point in a negative way. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] article about devuan
On Sat, 2022-07-30 at 12:55 +0200, Antony Stone wrote: > > I'm rather more amazed that he labels Devuan (and therefore by extension > Debian too) as "retro" and yet gives a pretty complimentary review, in > comparison, of Slackware! ROFLMAO you're right. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] article about devuan
I agree with Anthony’s assessment. I’ve been ising the mate desktop on devuan since ascii. my only complaint is lack of user management tools in the control panel. It’s a pretty minor beef since I’m ver comfortable on the command line. —Curtis Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 30, 2022, at 7:14 AM, tito via Dng wrote: > > On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 06:07:53 -0400 > Steve Litt wrote: > >>> On Fri, 2022-07-29 at 14:27 +0200, tito via Dng wrote: >>> https://linuxiac.com/best-systemd-free-linux-distributions/ >>> >>> I think the author knows nothing about devuan and spreads FUD >>> >> >> I thought most of the Devuan review was accurate and complimentary. However, >> I've >> never thought of Devuan as "retro" or particularly inconvenient for newbies. >> >> SteveT > > Hi, > > FUD:"And now we come to the last Linux distro on our list, where things get > extreme. > This is because we’re not just discussing another systemd-free Linux > distribution, > but one on a mission against systemd. But first, let me explain what this is > all about." > > Devuan is on a mission for init system freedom not against something. > > FUD: "Unfortunately, its widespread adoption is hampered by several factors." > > Of the listed distributions only MX and Slackware rank betteer on > distrowatch.com, the other > rank at about the same positions as Devuan. > > "First, due to the distribution’s establishment by a group of old-school > Linux administrators, > many of its features are reminiscent of Linux distributions from 15 or more > years ago." > > FUD: devuan shares the same packages with current Debian almost to 100%. > > "For example, the installer is not something that an average Linux user could > manage easily." > > FUD: The installer is the same as Debian's > > "In addition, many of the useful graphical tools that modern Linux users are > used to are absent." > > FUD.: I know of no such useful graphical tools that are absent apart of > "cockpit", anyway they > are not listed so this is an allegation with no proof. > > "Yes, Devuan is Debian without systemd, but we should add something else. > This distribution is not intended for the average Linux user, for whom UNIX > philosophy and GNU values are just words." > > FUD: the author doesn't know personally every linux users so how does he know? > > "To use and understand Devuan, you must change your mindset and perception of > the distribution’s > core beliefs. Because, in my perspective, Devuan is first philosophy and > secondarily a Linux distribution." > > FUD: to use devuan you have just to keep the mindset you had with previous > versions of Debian. > > Ciao, > Tito > > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] article about devuan
On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 06:07:53 -0400 Steve Litt wrote: > On Fri, 2022-07-29 at 14:27 +0200, tito via Dng wrote: > > https://linuxiac.com/best-systemd-free-linux-distributions/ > > > > I think the author knows nothing about devuan and spreads FUD > > > > I thought most of the Devuan review was accurate and complimentary. However, > I've > never thought of Devuan as "retro" or particularly inconvenient for newbies. > > SteveT Hi, FUD:"And now we come to the last Linux distro on our list, where things get extreme. This is because we’re not just discussing another systemd-free Linux distribution, but one on a mission against systemd. But first, let me explain what this is all about." Devuan is on a mission for init system freedom not against something. FUD: "Unfortunately, its widespread adoption is hampered by several factors." Of the listed distributions only MX and Slackware rank betteer on distrowatch.com, the other rank at about the same positions as Devuan. "First, due to the distribution’s establishment by a group of old-school Linux administrators, many of its features are reminiscent of Linux distributions from 15 or more years ago." FUD: devuan shares the same packages with current Debian almost to 100%. "For example, the installer is not something that an average Linux user could manage easily." FUD: The installer is the same as Debian's "In addition, many of the useful graphical tools that modern Linux users are used to are absent." FUD.: I know of no such useful graphical tools that are absent apart of "cockpit", anyway they are not listed so this is an allegation with no proof. "Yes, Devuan is Debian without systemd, but we should add something else. This distribution is not intended for the average Linux user, for whom UNIX philosophy and GNU values are just words." FUD: the author doesn't know personally every linux users so how does he know? "To use and understand Devuan, you must change your mindset and perception of the distribution’s core beliefs. Because, in my perspective, Devuan is first philosophy and secondarily a Linux distribution." FUD: to use devuan you have just to keep the mindset you had with previous versions of Debian. Ciao, Tito ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] article about devuan
On Saturday 30 July 2022 at 12:07:53, Steve Litt wrote: > On Fri, 2022-07-29 at 14:27 +0200, tito via Dng wrote: > > https://linuxiac.com/best-systemd-free-linux-distributions/ > > > > I think the author knows nothing about devuan and spreads FUD > > I thought most of the Devuan review was accurate and complimentary. > However, I've never thought of Devuan as "retro" or particularly > inconvenient for newbies. I regarded those comments as applying identically to Debian, and are true only if you choose (a) not to use the graphical installer (which the author has completely overlooked), and (b) fail to select "guided partitioning" and "all files in a single partition". I do think the overall impression he gives is unfavourable and inaccurate. I'm rather more amazed that he labels Devuan (and therefore by extension Debian too) as "retro" and yet gives a pretty complimentary review, in comparison, of Slackware! Antony. -- yes, but this is #lbw, we don't do normal Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] article about devuan
On Fri, 2022-07-29 at 14:27 +0200, tito via Dng wrote: > https://linuxiac.com/best-systemd-free-linux-distributions/ > > I think the author knows nothing about devuan and spreads FUD > I thought most of the Devuan review was accurate and complimentary. However, I've never thought of Devuan as "retro" or particularly inconvenient for newbies. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
