Re: [DNG] Quick start guide to uprading to Devuan and configuring minimalism

[Ста Деюс]

Good time of the day, dev1fan...@use.startmail.com.


On Tue, 3 Nov 2015 20:51:47 - you wrote:

> Hopefully I will be starting a wiki for 
> all this info and more to go into in the near future, but for now I 
> want to just put it out there for people trying to upgrade their 
> current system or get more minimalism in their system.

If you will any help on wiki, please let me know.


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Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

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Good time of the day, Didier.


On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 19:01:10 +0200 you wrote:

> Not Linuxisms, GNUisms. Nano (and Emacs) belongs to GNU, and you 
> know it: GNU's Not Unix! Do not forget we are talking of GNU/Linux. 
> Trying to be POSIX-compliant, sure, but GNU nevertheless... a
> dilemma :-)

Well. I've read somewhere one said, that Stallman (do not how to spell
right his lastname), himself, had betrayed free software for his own
editor (probably regarding some dealing of "Red Hat"). So, GNU, well,
but thinking how to live "the right way" -- nobody abolished.


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Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

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Good time of the day, Hendrik.


On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 08:18:31 -0400 you wrote:

> > Pardon, but funny! :o)  
> 
> Funny, yes, but very true.  I don't think they looked at keyboard 
> distance between the various commands when they named them.

You can make a symlink to mc w/ whatsoever name you would.


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Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

[Ста Деюс]

Good time of the day, Hendrik.


On Sun, 19 Jul 2015 08:14:06 -0400 you wrote:

> If you know which key it is.
> 
> > -- One key for
> > cope/move the text! One key for: point the place of insertion,
> > saving file ! -- Again, what can be easier?!  
> 
> If you know which key it is.
> 
> Is there an explanatory legend on-screen somewhere?

What could be easier than just look at the screen bottom of
MCeditor/MC ?!


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Re: [DNG] proposed changes: the results

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Good time of the day, Franco.


On Fri, 17 Jul 2015 04:41:13 +0200 you wrote:

> What do you think about moving this way?

Good. Or base install + by tasks/virtual packages (selectable at the
install stage).


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Re: [DNG] Devuan without salt

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Good time of the day, hellekin.


On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 21:52:43 -0300 you wrote:

> Following the discussion on defaults and a couple of recent remarks
> from Jaromil regarding audio ("for professionals") and Franco's
> opinion to ignore new users and "focus on intermediate users", I'd
> like to make a point: if Devuan is supposed to incarnate the legacy
> of Debian (as is mentioned in the wiki: "We consider ourselves the
> actual Debian legacy." [0]), there's a simple truth that should be
> crystal clear to anyone on this list (pardon the pun):
> 
>   IT'S VERY EASY TO ADD SALT, BUT VERY HARD TO REMOVE IT.
> 
> Moreover, if Devuan delivers a base distro that actually invites users
> to personalize it and share their preferences (popcorn with
> foresight), then users will understand that this distribution is
> actually about their freedom, and not just in words.
> 
> The "user" is a deadly trap of an abstraction, and Devuan should
> simply consider that the "user" ranges from a 3-year-old kid using a
> computer for the first time without supervision to Donald Knuth, and
> provide a simple system to accommodate both with minimal effort (I
> guess you got my position by now: using devuan-sdk, 'seeds', tasks,
> blends, and a public repository à la Mozilla addons...).
> 
> ==
> hk
> 
> Reductionism is the art of focusing on the forces that fit a model in
> order to maximize the probability of an experimental result matching
> the theory. Complexity begs to differ.
> 
> [0]: https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/home

Thank you! Great!


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Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

[Ста Деюс]

Good time of the day, Didier.


On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 20:20:27 +0200 you wrote:

> With nano, how to save and exit, etc is writen permanently on the 2 
> bottom lines. If you were to explain how to navigate, insert or erase 
> text, save and exit with vi, the screen wouldn't be large enough. 
> Complex editors are not suitable as fallback; this is true also for
> emacs.

I think comfortability comes w/ the easy to use / common (well known
beforetimes) keys -- for nano it is written at the bottom, it is true,
but in a disaster and may nervous circumstances -- it is strains a lot
-- to see every time i need, say, to save a file -- w/ its no need
questions: are you sure? what's the name -- though file is opened and
the name is well known. -- For copy/paste procedure, to mark the text
for selection -- i even keep quite -- never got the procedures happen.

On another hand, MCedit uses just F3 key and the cursor keys -- what
can be easier to go to and fro -- for selecting?! -- One key for
cope/move the text! One key for: point the place of insertion, saving
file ! -- Again, what can be easier?!

Of course, unless you keep the life harder, or have trodden the way of
vi/emacs and would not that those disasters were in vain -- no need for
MCedit, but i see no reasons for others to live hard way. Pardon me for
a bit of personal criticism -- i would not offend any, just really can
understand the reason of existing/using such editors.


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Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

[Ста Деюс]

Good time of the day, Didier.


On Thu, 16 Jul 2015 00:41:18 +0200 you wrote:

> If the gurus use vim and dislike nano, since they are 
> gurus, they can change the default themselves and leave the ordinary 
> people with a limited but usable editor.

I think the reason is in the small images, that will be available after
release. And suppose you have not Internet access w/ a machine you have
to repair -- then the minimal iso contents may play its important role.

As for me, i have being in such situations -- and it was terrible for
me to use even nano, though w/o even that editor i had to use even ed !
-- Whereas it could be absolutely another deal, had i mc/mcedit on such
disk.


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Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

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Good time of the day, Klaus.


On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 17:02:55 +0100 you wrote:

> Even though mc is something good for beginners but debian or devuan is
> not focusing on beginners and even devuan is focusing on "veteran unix
> admins" so vi(m) would be the only proper choice. :-D

I do not agree. I also use Linux not the first decade, and all that
time never used vi(m) and always used MC even in X-sessions. Especially
it is of great worth when in single mode (when repairing OS): MC and
MCedit.

On other hand vim/nano -- are hard to use w/ its not usual keys binding
and other stuff -- i do not remember of already for now. Whereas MCedit
uses F-keys -- that people could get habit when they used DOS programs.
-- Also, for every F-key there is a note below the screen -- so that w/
a single key press a function is called, and even a newbie can do basic
and essential functions.

So MC is the proper choice.


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Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

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Good time of the day, Micky.


On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 17:00:24 +0200 you wrote:

> I thing mc is useless: Real men don't eat quique.

Do not know what is quique, and i'm seems to me, not a "real men", but
the "MC" and it mceditor -- are a great software -- not only providing
a must functionality on any distro, but even doing that very well and
user-friendly.


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Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

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Good time of the day, John.


On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 16:34:57 +0200 you wrote:

> Gets my vote - lost without mc and the first thing I always install

Me too. As we suppose "Devuan" to be for at least advanced users, many
of whom may, as the first stage of install process, simply install the
base of the system -- just to get into the new box -- from where they
install/remove whatsoever they want. -- For such tasks it is good to a
text-based file manager, and what adds score to it -- it even has a
built-in editor -- the easiest i have found among the text-based. So,
the choice seems to vivid regarding the package.


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Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

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Good time of the day, Hendrik.


On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 09:48:33 -0400 you wrote:

> My entire problem with mc is that it's too easy to type mc when I
> mean mv and instead of moving my file it gets me into a strange mode
> I have to figure out how to get out of.

Pardon, but funny! :o)


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Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

[Ста Деюс]

Good time of the day, Micky.


On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 10:17:01 +0200 you wrote:

> I completely agree with Franco.
> On every unix the default editor is vi, so it must be in devuan, if
> somebody doesn't like it, he can use apt-get to install his favorite
> editor.

Let's look at another point of view: why is it there? -- For, and we
have FS layout that nowadays does not reflect disk size/speed
abilities. So, let's better consider its practical side than just
history/"others do so" -one -- for going the way "as others" will end
up no need in "Devuan" -- as it will have the US spyware "D".


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Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

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Good time of the day, Franco.


On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 02:59:51 +0200 you wrote:

> More than the already know switch from gnome to xcfe4 as the default
> desktop and the oblovious change to sysvinit instead of systemd, i
> would to propose some other default changes in the standard install:
> 
> nano -> vim
> exim -> postfix
> 
> 
> what do you guys think about that?

I suggest instead of nano/vim -- mcedit -- the internal text editor,
coming w/ MC. -- I think that MC is a must for any distro -- for it is
comfortable to manage files/dir.s w/ it. If so, why no to use the
already installed editor -- moreover that it is more comfortable to
work w/ -- in my opinion. I think a lot of people had experience ever
w/ the DOS programs and its NC, VC, etc.


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Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes

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Good time of the day, Peter.


On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 10:03:21 +0200 you wrote:

> just run "vimtutor" and do what it says... it's only difficult if you
> don't know the buttons.

There is some magic w/ the buttons: they use keys that are not found on
keyboards -- i think it is a software from some planet of the "Debian
universe"! :o)


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Re: [DNG] bummer

[Ста Деюс]

Доброго времени суток, Hendrik.


Спасибо за ответ, Mon, 6 Jul 2015 17:31:26 -0400, вы писали:
> I'm running wheezy on my server.
> The only package I have that contain 'systemd' in their names are:
> 
> libystemd-login0
> 
> I don't find it sneaking other systemd things onto my system when I
> do the usual security upgrades.  Maybe if I were to install gnome it
> might be different.
> 
> I got rid of libsystemd0 (or whatever it is called) a while ago.

«I run «Jessie» on my [desktop! (So w/ server it will be even less
problematic)]. The only package I have that contain 'systemd' in their
names are:»

libsystemd0

! So, you can you use even «Jessie» for your servers -- regarding the
spyware.


С уважением,
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Re: [DNG] My experience with Devuan Alpha2

[Ста Деюс]

Доброго времени суток, Karl.


Спасибо за ответ, Sun,  5 Jul 2015 03:21:28 +0200 (CEST), вы писали:
> You can always (at least with older x-servers) start mult. x-servers, 
> one per virtual terminal (and/or physical graphics card):
> 
>  3334 tty9 Ss+  166:17 /usr/bin/X :9 -layout 1600 vt9 -nolisten
> tcp -auth /tmp/serverauth.BqOG9iXqZQ 3726 tty7 Ss+6:59 X
> -nolisten tcp :1 -depth 16 vt7 -layout 800
> 
> and then run a wm/dm on resp. xserver.

And probably so i will do -- unless i find ready solution (like a *DM).
-- I have found that already, mentioned here LightDM can do that, but
its configuration is hard or poorly documented.


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Re: [DNG] Sound (Was: My experience with Devuan Alpha2)

[Ста Деюс]

Доброго времени суток, Gregory.


Спасибо за ответ, Sat, 4 Jul 2015 15:50:54 -0700, вы писали:
> I did actually, but in another thread which you might have missed.

Probably. Then, excuse me for the noise. But you may know how it
happens: you just see something that you would help with. -- Then you
have ether to reply or to walk by. -- Going to look for whole the
thread -- is extra task. So it remains to answer or walk by. -- I
choose the first. -- Still i think it is better to answer not given
question than walk by -- as the interested side (thread/question
author) will accept the answer or reject it -- depending on what he/she
already said. -- So it can be of worth to her/him.

> Yes, the gnome-orca package description seems to be quite
> over-simplified. Try this:
> 
> 
> I think the introduction there does a better job than the package

Oh, i see now. Here nothing to say for me -- i stand far from such
software, and it seems your choice is little for now. But, may, if
you're much concerned of the software -- to try compile yourself the
binaries -- the goal is to reduce components of GNOME -- and so your
dependency of whole project? -- May, there are a lot of technologies
(libraries) are used that you can easily get rid of? -- Just food for
thinking.


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Re: [DNG] Sound (Was: My experience with Devuan Alpha2)

[Ста Деюс]

Доброго времени суток, Gregory.


Спасибо за ответ, Fri, 3 Jul 2015 13:08:50 -0700, вы писали:
> Believe me, I would if I could. However, unless I'm missing something,
> this isn't as simple as you suggest:
> 
> 1. As far as I know, gnome and xfce are the only two GUI environments
> which have a screen reader, orca.
> 
> 2. I heard a few years back that KDE were developing their own AT-SPI
> and screen reader. I tried KDE on jessie in a virtual machine when I
> was playing with jessie/systemd, but got no speech. So, I assume that
> KDE hasn't gotten their act together yet as far as accessibility; at
> least not in the version included with jessie.
> 
> 3. As far as I know, all the other window managers mentioned here are
> based on x, and xorg doesn't currently provide a screen reader of its
> own, neither do the mentioned managers.
> 
> I'd love to do everything in the text console, but some things are
> lacking there, such as a useable modern web browser for example. I
> went over to the GUI on GNU/linux a number of years ago in the hopes
> of being to dump M$ windows, but that's not possible yet, even though
> enormous progress has been made with orca during that time. It isn't
> my intent to complain here. I just want to explain why going with a
> lighter desktop isn't an option for me at the moment as far as I know.

You have not to appologise for the software you use! :o)

I understand that circumstances differ ans each of us have to go
accordingly. You just didn't mention your circumstances before ny
advice.

But i still do not understand the value of the reader from what i have
read in the gnome-orca package description. -- As i understood it
associates events of keys pressing and app.s running some scripts to
respond to that. -- If it was correct, then why you just not use
hot-keys of your beloved window manager and some kind of demon that
watches those events from the app.s in case it signals some way? --
Another option is looking for something similar as ready solution - may
package it yourself, etc.

Currently, i, myself, moving from the remnants of «KDE» -- for now
it is only «KDM», «Konsole» and «Okular» -- the idea is to find the
most close in functionality and usability to those. -- Then it will be
no matter any more for me as what a developer of an app.s has chosen to
destroy his wonderful ever app. -- i just change it for alternative --
thus, being on functionality, and not the app. itself -- or, choosing
functionality, and not the app. itself.

And that's how things should be: standarts -- the end unser just
chooses what better in his opinion does its work.

Whereas as long as you are bound to the overhelming DEs -- you risk to
suffer fiasko one day w/ their new and wonderful decisions -- who knows
what will they do? -- And you have no option (for it is almost whole
OS to you).


PS Pardon me, women: under «his» i ment «her» too. :o)

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Re: [DNG] My experience with Devuan Alpha2

[Ста Деюс]

Доброго времени суток, Fernando.


Спасибо за ответ, Fri, 3 Jul 2015 11:36:29 -0300, вы писали:
> Simple enough is lightdm and you can make multiseat with several
> monitors/keyboards/mice or switch VMs (Control+Alt+Fn) to enable
> several users each with her own Xsession. 
> 
> If you run XFCE inside your session, it provides a dialog to open new
> session ("Change user" or something like that) and has alerts whenever
> you try to shutdown (i.e. "There are other users logged in, do you
> want to shutdown anyway?" ). 

I use «OpenBox» as my window manager and «KDM» for sessions. -- I have
written myself scripts to organize sessions, calling for «KDM» in its
turn -- right from my current session. I consider now «LightDM» and
look for the command that makes new session. Do you know the command?
 
> I really don't know much of XFCE nor lighhtdm (I use awesome) but my
> family and coworkers use them and are happy.
> 
> I use startx in _my_ own boxes, but install lightdm in some of my home
> computers to allow wife and sons share them without forcing them to
> close and open new sessions all the time.

Personally, i think that calling startx from text console is not
confortable -- either you use X-app.s or console ones -- even it is OK
to use both from the X-sessions (from terminal) -- why switch to and
fro just clicking monitor modes? Also, i think that second startx would
complain on no screen available - on single monitor. Though i may
mistake nowadays.


С уважением,
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Re: [DNG] "Bad" future is coming

[Ста Деюс]

Доброго времени суток, Евгений.


В Fri, 3 Jul 2015 11:35:07 +, вы писали:
> This is something like "philosophical" post about our future in
> poettering universe.
> 
> Working as system administrator, I am thinking about it, because of
> more and more Linux distributives switching to should-not-be-named
> daemon.
> 
> And, of course, servers will be updated in few years, and it becames
> impossible to avoid using poettering things in everyday work. I can
> avoid it on my own workstations and servers, but I will be forced to
> use binary logging in journald, logind and so on if my company
> updates its servers to new Linux distros.
> Developers should support new startup schemes and new logging
> features.
> 
> My colleagues and friends working with Linux don't think about this as
> about something bad and strange, a lot of people are able (or are
> forced) to switch, they talk about it as about something everyday.

I guess we have several options here:

1. Using LTS Debian that is free from the spyware.
2. I hope the time would be sufficient for «Devuan» getting started. --
Which, if not
3. Looking for other solutions for your needs and support those
solutions.
4. Forking necessary solutions, making societies around those spyfree
solutions.

Personally, i do not believe that whole the globe will participate in
the spyware of the Enemy country of the globe. -- Of course the Enemy
country will continue fighting w/ the developers of those solutions,
but nothing keeps it from being maintained here and there, making it
difficult or impossible to control free software.

It is life-level question, not the software question. -- To fight
fashism or become its slaves -- Rus', Russian empire, USSR - could not
bare the globe protection all the time having little or no support at
all from the globe -- time has come for the globe to fight at the end
for itself, itself, or Die.


С уважением,
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Re: [DNG] My experience with Devuan Alpha2

[Ста Деюс]

Доброго времени суток, Hendrik.


Спасибо за ответ, Fri, 3 Jul 2015 08:05:40 -0400, вы писали:
> There's
>ssh -X
> which can be directed at localhost.

In this case, how will it look like: first user logins through
non-GNOME/KDE DE, then, from terminal logins as another user?


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Re: [DNG] My experience with Devuan Alpha2

[Ста Деюс]

В Fri, 3 Jul 2015 14:18:17 +0630 Ста Деюс пишет:

> Do you of any *DE (except GDM, KDM) that supports multisessions --
> i.e. makes it possible to login through it while another session is
> running?

Ah! Missed one word making whole the message vain. The question was:

Do you *know* of any *DE (except GDM, KDM) that supports multisessions
-- i.e. makes it possible to login through it while another session is
running? Thank you. - Or two users can have X-sessions at the same time?


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Re: [DNG] My experience with Devuan Alpha2

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Доброго времени суток, Eugene.


Во Fri, 3 Jul 2015 11:17:52 +, вы писали:
> > I like the LXDE/Openbox combo. When I want a start button and
> > taskbar, I use LXDE with Openbox underneath, so I get that "desktop
> > environment" feel but have Openbox hotkeys available. When I'm on
> > my daily driver desktop and don't want all that desktoppy stuff, I
> > use Openbox, which if configured correctly, is spectacular.  
> 
> Thank you for idea, I think I should try them and understand if they
> are comfortable for me.
> 
> I chose Xfce more than 10 years ago, when it was 3.8, that time I was
> searching lightweight DE and found it (also it's like CDE). A lot of
> my *nix friends were using "two blacklisted DE" that time.
> 
> And also I should say respects to XFCE, it didn't became so huge and
> resourse leaking as they.

You can go even farther by simply using «OpenBox» only. - Do not know
why «LXDE» exists, but «OB» is pretty OK to configure and use. Even if
you need start menu button and etc -- there app.s that serve for those
purposes and only -- being lightweight and doing its the only work well.


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Re: [DNG] On DEs (Was: Sound, My experience with Devuan Alpha2)

[Ста Деюс]

Доброго времени суток, Klaus.


Спасибо за ответ, Fri, 3 Jul 2015 10:13:27 +0100, вы писали:
> I am not Gregory, but This two DEs are on my blacklist at all. Being a
> fvwm user for more than 20 years now and still happy with it. :-D
> 
> Some of /my/ reasons for not choosing KDE or GNOME
> - - Many daemons started by this DEs. I am a control freak and does
> not want all that daemons. (For using KDE applications, I even have
> "alias kdekill="pkill -9
>   'kded4|knotify|kdeinit4|kio_http_cache_|kuiserver|kwalletd'"" to
>   cleanup that crap afterwards.)
> - - I like to configure my DE for /my/ needs and not the ones of the
>   developers of that DEs.
> - - I dislike devs who tries to place me under disability as GNOME
> does.
> - - I like a mostly console (xterm) setting. The DE should most time
> only be there to switch between them. Why should I use a overblown
> system for that?
> - - I like my DE even on limited hardware. Try that with KDE on system
>   with up to 1G Mem, slow disk and slow CPU. Believe me, that is no
> fun.

You're absolutely correct! And the list you have given us is not
full even! -- But very well explains why it is worth to stand far from
those DEs.

And for «Devuan» it also helps not a little -- as to support those DEs
mess sure, will not be easy solution, and of course totally unnecessary
- having a lot of applications out of which it is easy to build desktop
  of any flavour.


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Re: [DNG] Sound (Was: My experience with Devuan Alpha2)

[Ста Деюс]

Доброго времени суток, Jonathan.


Спасибо за ответ, Fri, 03 Jul 2015 18:43:18 -0400, вы писали:
> Open Audacity and use the ALSA driver.
> Now open IceWeasel or whichever browser you typically use.  Bring
> up an HTML5 video tutorial for Audacity from Youtube or another such
> video streaming site.
> 
> Can you get audio from the video in the browser?

Yes, checked here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAJ4Sg-nO6A


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Re: [DNG] Sound (Was: My experience with Devuan Alpha2)

[Ста Деюс]

Доброго времени суток, Gregory.


Спасибо за ответ, Thu, 2 Jul 2015 13:21:15 -0700, вы писали:
> There is more where that came from. The only reason I tolerate it is
> because removing pulseaudio also removes gnome-core among others. I'm
> all for choice, and believe that those who want pulse in devuan should
> be able to install it. I would also however love to go back to the
> good old days of squeeze where some many things didn't depend on
> pulse

I would give you an advice then: stand far from such overhelming
projects as «KDE» and «GNOME» are -- pick out of a bunch of
applications your own desktop.


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Re: [DNG] My experience with Devuan Alpha2

[Ста Деюс]

Доброго времени суток, Robert.


Спасибо за ответ, Fri, 3 Jul 2015 09:24:52 +0800, вы писали:
> I too am a fan of fvwm and LXDE. But another I recommend is IceWM.
> Only weakness is (like fvwm) it doesn't by default automount plugin
> USB devices. If that could be tweaked, IceWM would be my preferred
> default desktop.

Do you of any *DE (except GDM, KDM) that supports multisessions -- i.e.
makes it possible to login through it while another session is running?


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Re: [DNG] Sound (Was: My experience with Devuan Alpha2)

[Ста Деюс]

В Thu, 2 Jul 2015 11:47:55 +0100 Klaus Ethgen 
пишет:

> What will be the alternatives? ALSA never worked for me to a usefull
> state. It has partly translated config files but not in the parser,
> has always cracking sound and kernel panics. It lags the ability to
> play multiple streams and more.

ALSA always worked for me in «Fedora», «Debian» - up to «Jessie»
-- many cards and machines (dest/lap -tops) since about 2000. -- Diver
applications: «mplayer*», «alsamixer», «ardour», «audacity».
Rare/hardly working: PA, jackd.


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Re: [Dng] donations by mail?

[Ста Деюс]

Доброго времени суток, Rob.


Спасибо за ответ, Sat, 14 Mar 2015 11:19:09 +0100, вы писали:
> How about paypal?

Oh NO! No deal w/ the criminal groups!


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Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey

[Ста Деюс]

В Wed, 04 Mar 2015 21:13:43 +0100
x...@openmailbox.org пишет:

> I'm not a professional artist, but maybe it's the only thing that I
> can collaborate. Please, find attach a link with two images with
> sketches for your consideration. There are a logo idea and some
> marketing cartoons (similar to openbsd artwork
> http://www.openbsd.org/lyrics.html ).
> 
> 
> http://imageshack.com/a/img673/3843/ysTXTQ.jpg
> http://imageshack.com/a/img901/9656/hRoqIm.jpg
> 
> Salud!
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHC9HE7vazI

Pardon me but to me it looks like folling w/ Devuan!
Like the guilty of capturing Debian, laugh over us!

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Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges

[Ста Деюс]

В Fri, 27 Feb 2015 21:25:59 -1000
Joel Roth  пишет:

> It could be the One Ring, or it could be The Matrix.
> I think penguins walking out of jail gives a similar idea,
> while using a more universal symbol. Perhaps I should try my hand
> at photo-shopping, err.. gimping it.

I suggest to list our wishes on logo: what it should reflect.


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Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XI

[Ста Деюс]

В Fri, 27 Feb 2015 16:08:40 -0500
Gravis  пишет:

> this coming from the person that has the initials for "shut the hell
> up" as their signature.

WOW! 8oO


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Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges

[Ста Деюс]

В Fri, 27 Feb 2015 17:30:22 -0300
hellekin  пишет:

> > Awesome! As it is the planet-wide project, why make it necessary to
> > translate even logo into languages? - Let it be just graphical
> > stuff. 

> *** Why is everybody looking for the One Ring to Rule Them All?  Can't
> we have unity through diversity?  Are we all subject of Mordor's
> torpor and subjugation?

> I'd like to see logos I can't read: in Cyrillic, in Mandarin, in
> Arabic, ...  If "if" makes a great logo for English-speaking people,
> what makes a great logo for Indians?  Embrace cultural differences
> for freedom sake!

Do not know what's Mordor is, but i think it will be hard to translate
logo to every language. For example, when redesigned, or some other
graphical work will be done. Also it is possible, that having text logo
wil never be translated into all the languages.

Again, it is just mine opinion. :o)


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Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XI

[Ста Деюс]

В Fri, 27 Feb 2015 18:05:49 -0300
hellekin  пишет:

> impressive", or "very effective".  As a non-native English speaker as
> well, it didn't occur to me that it was impolite to do so, and
> apparently the people who worked on this issue were not shocked
> either. As was mentioned before, anyone is welcome to participate in
> the editing process of the DWN, so I recommend that you join us on
> Monday so that such offense does not happen again.

Thank you. How i can join 'on monday'?

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Re: [Dng] Circumvention Tech Festival

[Ста Деюс]

В Sun, 1 Mar 2015 14:37:55 -0430
Richard  пишет:

> > Can Devuan be a security-aware, privacy-aware distro?
> >
> > Er Envite
> 
> It may be.
> Time will tell.
> No one knows yet.

Security should be kept in mind always - otherwise who will use it? -
Just for offline machines - i guess it scarcely be found today.

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Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XI

[Ста Деюс]

В Sun, 1 Mar 2015 21:19:04 +
Isaac Dunham  пишет:

> Over here, those who are more particular about such things consider
> "ass" to be a somewhat vulgar term when referring to the posterior
> rather than a male donkey (and "kick ass" refers to the aforesaid
> pportion of the anatomy).  Not quite a swear word, but something to
> be avoided.

Big thanks for explanation, Isaac!
A simple suggestion of mine - i even could not suppose, that it will
make such noise. I though all will make their on conclusions and will
go farther, hopefully w/o the wording.


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Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11

[Ста Деюс]

В Wed, 25 Feb 2015 09:15:24 +0100
Anthony Scemama  пишет:

> I found this image on the web:
> 
> http://tux.crystalxp.net/png/kros753-kiss-the-demon-2286.png
> 
> ​
> It's a good mix between KISS and Linux!
> If you like it, I can ask the guys from CrystalXP.net if it can be
> used for Devuan.

I guess it is not what Linus ment, choosing for logo penguin: something
cute. :o)

To me it is not beautiful, nor comely.


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Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XI

[Ста Деюс]

В Mon, 23 Feb 2015 23:39:10 +
Noel Torres  пишет:

> I do not find it swear nor violent. I find way more violent to
> request us (not me, DWN is made by a growig group of people) to stop
> using words that are not swear just because they incomodate a single
> person, and that single person speaking in plural.

It is swear to me, and can/ be for others.

You' re free to whatever you want within your company, body, spirit --
but, please stop doing it publicaly - for the people it is not
acceptable to hear such a speech/language that you or your company
lives w/.

I suppose you and your company/group will not be hurted absolutely
(what i can not suppose for the people, reading you/your group if you
all persist in your language) by making little effort of keeping your
language clean just for the time you type the news, and then can rest
yourself for all other time.

I see here just people arrive to your work IF you keep your languages
clean for the news moments -- so whole the project only wins from that
your sacrifice: the news and the possible farther development. -- And
opposite, people go away -- that does not help Devuan at all.


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Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges

[Ста Деюс]

В Mon, 23 Feb 2015 21:28:41 +
Noel Torres  пишет:

> >  https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-art/blob/devuan-alpha/graphic
> > s/init-freedom/if.png  
> 
> I'd prefer any logo that does not use english initials or play on
> words.

Awesome! As it is the planet-wide project, why make it necessary to
translate even logo into languages? - Let it be just graphical stuff.


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Re: [Dng] Easy forkability

[Ста Деюс]

В Mon, 23 Feb 2015 19:32:08 +0100
Jaromil  пишет:

> > This suggests that one of the goals of Devuan should be easy
> > forkability.
> > 
> > But it's not clear to me what this involves technically.
> > 
> > Any suggestions?  
> 
> perhaps the SDK is a good start on this ;^)

Yea! That's a very good idea! But, simple SDK! :o)

> > Are there aspects of the existing structure of Debian that made it
> > more difficult to fork?  
> 
> no, not really. I'd say Debian until its version 7 is really fork
> friendly, not just technically, but also politically: a good amount of
> DDs have welcomed our fork seeing it brings some resilience and fresh
> air. The architecture of the OS is very open to ad-hoc usage and we
> should keep up with that.

I think it is not Debian-relevant, but mainstreams - especiaaly big
projects.
 
> I also believe that without Devuan today, in one or two years from now
> systemd would be really hard to remove and that might make Debian
> harder to fork in the direction of init-freedom.

It can be more harder if mainstream will do so.


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Re: [Dng] Easy forkability

[Ста Деюс]

В Mon, 23 Feb 2015 11:56:28 -0500
Hendrik Boom  пишет:

> > Well the answer is simple: if such an unlikely "invasion" would
> > happen, we will always have the opportunity to fork Devuan, for the
> > good of its users :)  
> 
> This suggests that one of the goals of Devuan should be easy
> forkability.
> 
> But it's not clear to me what this involves technically.
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> Are there aspects of the existing structure of Debian that made it
> more difficult to fork?

I think that community also can participate in important discussions,
voting by a lot of real people (not 4 DDs for whole the project) before
important dicidions be made.

So, i see for protection two ways: technical, like minimalism for easy
forking, and community driven development of the project.

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Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11

[Ста Деюс]

В Mon, 23 Feb 2015 14:39:06 +0100
Didier Kryn  пишет:

>  I think this question goes together with the badge or logo 
> question. It must go beyond "sans-systemd";
> it is more about principles. Let's list some:
> 
>   - freedom of choice,
>   - interchangealility of solutions to a given need,
>   - reduce inter-dependencies to the strict minimum
> 
>  Don't know if KISS goes into details, but maybe it could inspire 
> the logo.

I think these are the points, that can help to protect Devuan, at least
the 3rd.


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Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11

[Ста Деюс]

В Mon, 23 Feb 2015 14:05:49 +
KatolaZ  пишет:

> If it is true that "freedom of choice" sounds like a cool flagship, on
> the other hand we effectively have no freedom at all about the choice
> of the large majority of the core components of a GNU/Linux system,
> starting with the libc and continuing with the authentication system
> (pam), most of the basic libraries, system tools and so forth. And if
> you want a GUI, you don't have any alternative to X-servers and
> X-clients (I know, wayland promises to change this, but not for the
> better IMHO). And if you are not content of juxt X + twm and you want
> a working GUI + a DM, you are bound to install tons of dependencies,
> for most of which there are no replacements at all. In most of the
> cases, 99.5% of the user don't even know exactly what is installed in
> their hard disks, and they don't care, as long as it *works*.

UNIXes have to divide its software by function types and not the
suites, depending on each other and the only. For example, it should be
possible for X user to pick his/her own X environment: task bar from
one package, window maanger from another, screen-saver from the third,
etc. -- according to personal prefernces on how well each particular
software does its job, or how much comfortable to use it for the end
user.

And os it is w/ all the OS - does not matter what. -- So, all the
software should work w/ each other - through APIs that should be
standartized. And that's it.

And the Enemy disaster, the "SystemD" will not be problem - for the
sold/betraial DDs will be to have use the disaster, and the yet free
distro-s -- "SysV". -- And so on.

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Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11

[Ста Деюс]

В Mon, 23 Feb 2015 13:19:04 +
KatolaZ  пишет:

> > On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 2:38 PM, Ста Деюс
> >  wrote:  
> > > But, at the first, what is planned to perform to protect «Devuan»
> > > from the guys, that got hold of the fantastic project «Debian»?
> > > In other words, if the guys come to «Devuan» and by their cruelty
> > > will start to «help» some of developers to corrupt the project,
> > > do abnormal, unnatural for the project things -- similar like
> > > constitution of «Debian» appeared, finnaly the «systemd» was
> > > forcibly set up: how we will protect our project?  
> > 
> > Very good question.  
> 
> Well the answer is simple: if such an unlikely "invasion" would
> happen, we will always have the opportunity to fork Devuan, for the
> good of its users :)

Hmm. You see how not easy and not short is the process of creation of a
new distro. To capture distro is very easy as Debian sad experience
shows... and is grievous for its long time users.

Why i stress the point is that our community would ponder on this wise,
and may be, a decision will be thought out for such cases - when
distro is not protected by army (its developers): and be used for other
free distro.s, not only Devuan.

The decision can be encapsulated into the development process so that
easy transfer to another (new) distro will be easy and short, or its
capture will be in vain and therefore may abandoned in the future.

Otherwise we will be going circles - long, hard - just to get what we
had already - and even that is not in long perspective.
 
> Having said that, I personally think that there is no reason "to
> protect Devuan from the [bad] guys". If we would like to do something
> good for Devuan we should now focus on helping Devuan developers
> making it happen, not defending them from being zombified by
> unspecified members of "The Dark Power(TM)"

Well. I have said my opinion.

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Re: [Dng] Combatting revisionist history

[Ста Деюс]

В Thu, 26 Feb 2015 07:25:16 +
KatolaZ  пишет:

> I personally think that the essence of that nice post is in the very
> last quote:
> 
> "Those who don't understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it,
> poorly."

I've another story, same way: "Whenever people did invent good (here
comes its criterias) OS -- they always got UNIX." :o)

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Re: [Dng] About separate mailing lists

[Ста Деюс]

Доброго времени суток, Renaud.


Спасибо за ответ, Wed, 11 Feb 2015 16:07:23 -0300, вы писали:
> "Usspookes Lovesystemd"  wrote:
> 
> > FUCK YOU  
> 
> Qu'en termes gracieux ces choses là sont dites...

Just filter out the non-human!


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Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XI

[Ста Деюс]

Доброго времени суток, Noel.


Спасибо за новость, Wed, 11 Feb 2015 05:18:25 +, вы писали:
> we know is that they're already planning on delivering some kickass

Could you please cease «kickass» here -- for people read your news
also, but such rudness leaves them nothing but to shrink from your
writing. Thanks again for the news though.


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Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11

[Ста Деюс]

Доброго времени суток, R.M..


Спасибо за ответ, Tue, 03 Feb 2015 09:10:45 +, вы писали:
> T.J.'s opinions make a lot of sense to me and I suspect also to
> others reading this list.  Many people who have in the past relied
> upon Debian Linux as a solid platform for doing productive work are
> now looking at various alternatives in the face of the systemd
> phenomenon, and some of these people are sure to be subscribing to
> the DNG mailing list in the hope of seeing some good news.
> 
> I suppose FreeBSD is the obvious first destination for Debian
> refugees, and personally I am actively exploring that solution at the
> moment.  But it would be very nice indeed if the Devuan project can
> be made to succeed, as Devuan would provide an attractive way of
> leveraging the ongoing vigorous development of the Linux kernel.  I
> should remark that I am prepared to do more than wish the Devuan
> project well:  in the longer term I am willing to assist actively in
> testing and coding if it turns out that I am capable of contributing
> positively.
> 
> --Mike

I think of another side of the medal: how the just starting project. w/
a lot of work to be done ahead, is going to be protected in the future
-- to share not the fate of «Debian»?

I also go same road you do for now. Though i do not think of «*BSD».
And since «Devuan» happens -- i would maintain a package close to my
interests -- i think it would be musical one.

But, at the first, what is planned to perform to protect «Devuan» from
the guys, that got hold of the fantastic project «Debian»? In other
words, if the guys come to «Devuan» and by their cruelty will start
to «help» some of developers to corrupt the project, do abnormal,
unnatural for the project things -- similar like constitution of
«Debian» appeared, finnaly the «systemd» was forcibly set up: how we
will protect our project?

-- That's the main question i have before understanding what the
«Devuan» is, what i can await from it, and whither it deserves for
efforts. -- for idea is good, but and abandoned distros the history
knows of not a few.

So?


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Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11

[Ста Деюс]

Доброго времени суток, Didier.


Спасибо за ответ, Tue, 03 Feb 2015 12:31:33 +0100, вы писали:
>  I think it is fine that T.J.Duchene gives his opinion, although
> I disagree with him. I'm very optimistic about Systemd-free Linux, so 
> optimistic that I think Devuan is simply preparing the future of
> Debian.

Sure!
 
>  The reason why RedHat develops and enforces systemd is clear to
> me: they have customers paying for a ready-made system that RedHat
> would maintain. They want to increase their productivity by
> introducing tools which automate things as much as possible, plus
> security-related features -- a valid sales argument. It makes full
> sense; that's their busyness model.

Which security you are talking about? systems - has a lot of poorely
tested code at one hand, that uses root-priveleges at another hand!

>  But what are Debian maintainers/developpers working for? OK they 
> try to provide an OS that's usable out of the box, but for who? Sure

For those who has power over the developers|maintainers, that like
security issues of software, who need to control every person on the
planet, or occupy the planet! - And who is it?! - As usually, the
well-known planet accupants, the original capitalists, the US/UK !

> it works for  Everybody, they claim, but this includes primarily
> people like themselves, geeks and hackers. And they likely will see
> geeks and hackers run away. Debian has taken a very wrong decision but
> they're going to have chances to change it.

No! They continue as it is the goal of the 4 voters and their masters:
to bind the great project to themselves.

In systemd i see pure attack on linux and the free software.

С уважением,
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Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11

[Ста Деюс]

Доброго времени суток, Martijn.


Спасибо за ответ, Tue, 3 Feb 2015 16:34:59 +0200, вы писали:
> I (my company) looks after a lot of servers, and we are *always*
> looking for ways to make things go better, faster, and stronger :)
> automation is a *huge* part of what we do, as is security. Systemd
> does not really offer us much that we don't already have, and the
> "price" we need to pay to take on systemd is not one we are
> comfortable with. Untested, unproven, and at the end of the day an
> overall framework architecture that we think sucks. Systemd offers a
> lot of interesting things for desktop users, which we are not. We are
> server monkeys, and don't really care about desktop bootimes. I
> *like* initscripts, but also like OpenRC and upstart (we are an
> Ubuntu shop).

Plus many of desktop users do not turn off their machines, but simply
put it to sleep.

С уважением,
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Re: [Dng] Use/misuse of depends

[Ста Деюс]

Доброго времени суток, KatolaZ.


Спасибо за ответ, Wed, 14 Jan 2015 10:52:39 +, вы писали:
> Well, unfortunately there is currently no clear-cut about
> Recommends. In most of the cases a package will work fine 99.99% of
> the times even if you don't have the Recommends installed (as in the
> case of the gdbserver recommended by gdb), in some of the cases a
> Recommend is simply unnecessary (like exim4 recommended by mutt) but
> in many other cases Recommends include "standard" package
> associations, which would make your package loose some
> important/typical functionalities if not installed (like in the case
> of ghostscript recommended by gimp)...

Then may the recommendations should be better separeted/termed. -- So
that in primer case of your example, it should stand as 'recommends'
while the last one -- 'depends'.


С уважением,
Ста.
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