Re: [Dng] Plan for Devuan to use Mozilla products as is
A lightweight browser would be welcome. Does anyone have a practical way to migrate bookmarks from Chrome or Chromium to such a lightweight browser? qupzilla can import chromium bookmarks. i'm sure other actively maintained browsers have the same capability. - Gravis On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 1:52 PM, Hendrik Boom hend...@topoi.pooq.com wrote: On Sun, Mar 08, 2015 at 11:59:25AM +, Nuno Magalhães wrote: I - personally - use chromium sometimes as i, as you've noticed, dislike Google yet some IE-ish sites work better on chromium than they do on firefox. Chromium seems fast but lacks a few plugins i use in Firefox. Unfortunately, they're both memory hogs (as far as my experience with them goes). Hence my original suggestion: for a distro that's still trying to get on its feet, a lightweight browser would probably be best, like midori, dillo or something else. I don't think the effort of eventually tweaking firefox or chrome (i said eventually) is worth it at this moment. A lightweight browser would be welcome. Does anyone have a practical way to migrate bookmarks from Chrome or Chromium to such a lightweight browser? Still, that's the beauty of open-source: even if one of these two browsers gets chosen, i can, if i want, use something else. As can you. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Plan for Devuan to use Mozilla products as is
Hence my original suggestion: for a distro that's still trying to get on its feet, a lightweight browser would probably be best, like midori, dillo or something else. right because giving people the option of using their prefered browser is a bad idea! I don't think the effort of eventually tweaking firefox or chrome (i said eventually) is worth it at this moment. why do you want to tweak browsers when you dont have to? - Gravis On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 7:59 AM, Nuno Magalhães nunomagalh...@eu.ipp.pt wrote: On Sat, Mar 7, 2015 at 6:11 PM, T.J. Duchene t.j.duch...@gmail.com wrote: Go look at the code, it's open is a common argument i hear from pro-systemd advocates. Curious. About looking at the code: have you personally audited chrome's code, top to bottom, OpenBSD-style? 'Cos if you haven't - it is a big piece of software -, well your argument is moot Nuno, when I say this, I'm not trying to be rude, or nasty or mean.The fact that you don't like Google is noted, and accepted. If you aren't going to make the effort to look at the code, please do not pass judgment on the authors or their efforts. Otherwise, you are offering only second hand knowledge: hearsay and not fact. That's not an argument associated with systemd, that is the whole point of open source. It is actually about the level of trust. No one can possibly argue that the code is tainted or not when they have not reviewed the code. Nor has anyone on this list likely to have reviewed the vast majority of the code for all of a Linux distribution. Either Devuan trusts the community to police the code or it doesn't. Unfortunately i don't have time to look at every bit of code of the software i use. I do trust the majority of open-source software out there, without looking at its code. I don't think i need to look at the code for that. Just to be clear, I did not advocate Chrome at any point. Chromium is not Chrome. A derived software is not the same as the original. Chrome is made from Chromium, not the other way around. Much the same way, LibreOffice is NOT the original OpenOffice, nor is Lotus Symphony. Me neither and i wrote chromium when i actually meant chrome, my bad. Since you didn't answer the original question i'm going to assume you did look at chromium's code. Please share your insights. While i inderstand the stability of forking a process for every tab i don't see the benefit of the performance penalty. Maybe i'm wrong. I - personally - use chromium sometimes as i, as you've noticed, dislike Google yet some IE-ish sites work better on chromium than they do on firefox. Chromium seems fast but lacks a few plugins i use in Firefox. Unfortunately, they're both memory hogs (as far as my experience with them goes). Hence my original suggestion: for a distro that's still trying to get on its feet, a lightweight browser would probably be best, like midori, dillo or something else. I don't think the effort of eventually tweaking firefox or chrome (i said eventually) is worth it at this moment. Still, that's the beauty of open-source: even if one of these two browsers gets chosen, i can, if i want, use something else. As can you. I think after this, I'm going to lessen responding to the general list. I'm *not* pointing fingers at you, Nuno or anyone's behavior. I am just as guilty of the same, but any time I decide to spend on Devuan could be more productive: better spent packaging or coding. I totally get the need to vent, or just rant sometimes - but the constant antagonism toward certain software, their authors, and the paranoia is starting to get to me. Some of the discussions have been great! I especially liked the one on languages. However, most seem to go nowhere. Indeed any time spent on packaging or coding is time well-spent, thank you. I do try to vent as little as possible and try doing so in a rational and civilized manner. However, as has recently happened here on the list, maybe some cultural nuances flew by me (english is not my native language) and i may've offended you somehow. If so, my apologies. Is there a dev list available where I can track the progress of Devuan toward Alpha? This discussion has been brought up before and the general consensus was not to split this list into dev- and user-. My take on that at the time was that not splitting makes sure both sides (if you see sides; i don't -- and didn't say you do) stay in touch and blurr the lines a bit -- it's sane for both to keep each other in check and to know what the other is doing. Obviously this is only my opinion. Cheers, Nuno ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Plan for Devuan to use Mozilla products as is
If I understand what you are saying you mean that a link to site A which links to copyrighted material on site B is itself a violation of copyright. no, what i mean is that he was the one who uploaded the clips to youtube, got banned from youtube and then posted the links on a forum to the clips as proof that google was evil. - Gravis On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 1:39 AM, Peter Olson pe...@peabo.com wrote: On March 5, 2015 at 11:26 PM Gravis rin...@adaptivetime.com wrote: the link you posted links to a clip from Al Jazeera that was taken down due to copyright infringement. you do realize that content from Al Jazeera is copyright and that posting it without permission is copyright infringement, right? if you do stuff like that repeatedly they ban you. are you claiming you didn't post the videos and that there is a conspiracy to oppress you? if so, you have a persecution complex. If I understand what you are saying you mean that a link to site A which links to copyrighted material on site B is itself a violation of copyright. This is a truly hazardous notion (called contributory copyright infringement by some). Link A - link B - link C - link D - link E - link F (violating) cause all downstream links to B, C, D, and E, as well as A, to be violations? It's involuntary, since A cannot be expected to traverse all paths to links out of B to check for this supposed violation, especially with transitive closure over the entire Internet and the lack of a useful discriminant for violation. It's retroactive, because site D can change its outbound links at any time after the initial citation of A to B and A will be none the wiser. Doubtless there are other worms in this can, so I rest my case. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Plan for Devuan to use Mozilla products as is
Really? The Surveillance Engine Terminated All My Videos http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3t=113059 you are not a victim here. your videos were terminated because they violated copyright law which they are required to enforce. apparently you are a repeat offender and thus correctly deemed untrustworthy. your other comments pointing to forum posts are nebulous in meaning. - Gravis On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 12:51 PM, miroslav.rov...@zg.ht.hr wrote: I want to add my thoughts and feelings to this conversation. But since this is my first message to this list, here're a few links of my tips, user-to-user (I'm not an expert and I'm just a fraction of a programmer if at all), [user-to-user] tips: Grsecurity/Pax installation on Debian GNU/Linux http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=16t=108616 How to Remove Systemd and Related Packages from Your Debian http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=16t=118197 How to avoid stealth installation of systemd? http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20t=116770 And I'll stick one link below exactly where there is a special line, in this thread I'm replying to, that touched a nerve in my guts. But I am more of a Gentoo user still (since 2008, Debian since 2013 I think). Such as: Air-Gapped Gentoo Install, Tentative https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-987268.html Uninstalling dbus and *kits (to Unfacilitate Remote Seats) https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-992146.html I'm not giving you those links for no reason. While I am not a programmer, or am just minimally one, I have extensive user (of late it has become advanced user) experience with censorship and even surveillance that a user, in a country ruled by a regime, is exposed to (have unveiled it for everybody to see, and will give another two links below exactly where there is a special line that touched a nerve in my guts). On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 03:28:59AM -0500, Gravis wrote: Nik, please remove yourself from the mailing list. --Gravis Completely wrong, as attitude and even as merely a wish! Somebody stated elsewhere in these few days on this list: it's free software, and it's open source! Contrary from banning other people's opinions, we must allow them. I agree completely with Nick, but I won't jump on you Gravis, as I don't jump on some Gentoo members who, well, support NSA, and troll against me... I'll let them like SELinux, Google and other stuff which I despise! As long as they let me tell other members what I think and suggest of SELinux, Google and stuff! And tell what I advise that they use and generally do! On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 3:11 AM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp dr.kl...@gmx.at wrote: Am Donnerstag, 5. März 2015 schrieb Gravis: Here is just one example of what I am referring to. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data yeah, if you actually read the article you will learn that google (like everyone else) complies with the law. if you look further, you learn that the NSA tapped private fiber lines for both google and yahoo. so what exactly did google do to offend you? Don't know about Nick, but I can tell what they did to offend *me*: Really? The Surveillance Engine Terminated All My Videos http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3t=113059 And this is where they let the local regime do what they like against me: a clickjacking that only packets captured show: Postfix smtp/TLS, Bkp/Cloning Mthd, Censorship/Intrusion https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-999436.html#7685200 and: brute mess-up of my connection: Air-Gapped Gentoo Install, Tentative https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-987268-start-25.html#7552466 (identified the files right after it happened back in 2014, revealed all only these days) How about that, Gravis? The good do-no-evil Google? Ruining 5 yrs of my work? And the other two links are just samples of pranks and filthy routines from my nearly everyday life with my dear regime online? NOTE: All the links above I've checked before posting, barring future double-check report on any that was not right, further down this email thread. For future readers from the archives. is your objection that they were hacked by the NSA or that they strong armed by the NSA? reporting child pornography to the FBI as legally required by law? I don't understand where you got child pornography from. you wrote considering their ties to government agencies and the FBI is a government agency. --Gravis Sorry, no. FBI, NSA and US as a whole is a hostile government. Cooperation is forbidden by law (at least for normal citizens). Please do a realitycheck outside US. Right! Cooperation is against Free Open Source Software natural laws and declared customs! Nik -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA. I really like this line! ___ Dng
Re: [Dng] Plan for Devuan to use Mozilla products as is
I was derided and attacked earlier in Debian Fora why am i not surprised? -_- - Gravis On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 7:44 PM, miroslav.rov...@zg.ht.hr wrote: On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 09:41:52PM +0200, Martijn Dekkers wrote: **Looks around** Full moon tonight? Well, I don't respond in kind. I was derided and attacked earlier in Debian Fora, but my topics and my tips ended up being read and followed. And they are in Gentoo Fora. I'd just point to two kind posts related to my work by golinux which I mentioned in my first post, and who I greet with respect again, and which I related to devuan, which, like many of you, I do pin a lot of my hopes on: Topic: devuan http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3t=119155p=564686#p564686 How to Remove Systemd and Related Packages from Your Debian http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=16t=118197start=15#p564494 But of most concern to me, is about what I'd like to contribute, which I believe I'll be able to do, barring my health getting poorer yet and enmity in my surrounding getting harsher yet... (the enmity surrounding explained in the previous message, the first one, also contained below, and seen here: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150305.175104.c6924211.en.html and BTW every single link is live in my message at this time.), [But my concern is about what I'd like to contribute], just like I contributed to Debian which has now crippled itself with the windozing/poetterizing and is now not a place to be... I still hope someone can try and figure that those thousands of views of my tips may not be a fruit of what Martijn Dekkers suggests. And I saw, belatedly, and in bottom of my: Grsecurity/Pax installation on Debian GNU/Linux http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=16t=108616 (the very last post) tip you can read why I wasn't able to follow earlier... And I saw, belatedly, and read most of it, the few discussions on dbus, and I only want to say that an opt-out of dbus is needed, and it has been attainable in Debian, thanks to Thorsten mirabilos Glasier and his work. It is workable as I demonstated here: How to Remove Systemd and Related Packages from Your Debian http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=16t=118197start=15 (and that is a repeated link)... I count dbus in poetterware-related. You don't have to. I do. Pls. allow for that option! My take on it you can have also here: Updating and keeping your Gentoo non-poeterized https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1012022.html Just my new sig in bottom, no more new stuff in this message. On 5 March 2015 at 19:51, miroslav.rov...@zg.ht.hr wrote: I want to add my thoughts and feelings to this conversation. But since this is my first message to this list, here're a few links of my tips, user-to-user (I'm not an expert and I'm just a fraction of a programmer if at all), [user-to-user] tips: Grsecurity/Pax installation on Debian GNU/Linux http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=16t=108616 How to Remove Systemd and Related Packages from Your Debian http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=16t=118197 How to avoid stealth installation of systemd? http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20t=116770 And I'll stick one link below exactly where there is a special line, in this thread I'm replying to, that touched a nerve in my guts. But I am more of a Gentoo user still (since 2008, Debian since 2013 I think). Such as: Air-Gapped Gentoo Install, Tentative https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-987268.html Uninstalling dbus and *kits (to Unfacilitate Remote Seats) https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-992146.html I'm not giving you those links for no reason. While I am not a programmer, or am just minimally one, I have extensive user (of late it has become advanced user) experience with censorship and even surveillance that a user, in a country ruled by a regime, is exposed to (have unveiled it for everybody to see, and will give another two links below exactly where there is a special line that touched a nerve in my guts). On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 03:28:59AM -0500, Gravis wrote: Nik, please remove yourself from the mailing list. --Gravis Completely wrong, as attitude and even as merely a wish! Somebody stated elsewhere in these few days on this list: it's free software, and it's open source! Contrary from banning other people's opinions, we must allow them. I agree completely with Nick, but I won't jump on you Gravis, as I don't jump on some Gentoo members who, well, support NSA, and troll against me... I'll let them like SELinux, Google and other stuff which I despise! As long as they let me tell other members what I think and suggest of SELinux, Google and stuff! And tell what I advise that they use and generally do! On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 3:11 AM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp dr.kl...@gmx.at wrote: Am Donnerstag, 5. März 2015 schrieb Gravis
Re: [Dng] release names
This way it would be much easier to count which release it is, and it would serve as an indication that devuan has already it's own personality, and isn't only a debian's copy. that is a poor rationale for breaking a logical naming scheme. --Gravis On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 2:44 AM, P. T. Zoltowski osy...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-03-05 2:36 GMT+01:00, Ricardo Larrañaga ricardo.larran...@gmail.com: So, basically we will be using mithology for names. Ahead on the list it gets a little more variety, but initially is mostly gods and godess Well, I think this is a good reminder. That even things people once thought as all powerful, always end up as a distant memory (in this case literally ;) ). I know it's probably too late for any suggestions, but I would change few things. I think Ceres should be the permanent name for testing repository, and unstable should be named Apophis (or after some other naughty planet). And the first realease I would name doubly (or rather triply), Jessie Ascii. This way it would be much easier to count which release it is, and it would serve as an indication that devuan has already it's own personality, and isn't only a debian's copy. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Plan for Devuan to use Mozilla products as is
as a matter of fact, it is! http://www.moongiant.com/Full_Moon_New_Moon_Calendar.php the good news is that friday the 13th wont coincide with a full moon for another 34 years. turns out, the last one was this past June. - Gravis On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 2:41 PM, Martijn Dekkers devuan-li...@dekkers.org.uk wrote: **Looks around** Full moon tonight? On 5 March 2015 at 19:51, miroslav.rov...@zg.ht.hr wrote: I want to add my thoughts and feelings to this conversation. But since this is my first message to this list, here're a few links of my tips, user-to-user (I'm not an expert and I'm just a fraction of a programmer if at all), [user-to-user] tips: Grsecurity/Pax installation on Debian GNU/Linux http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=16t=108616 How to Remove Systemd and Related Packages from Your Debian http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=16t=118197 How to avoid stealth installation of systemd? http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20t=116770 And I'll stick one link below exactly where there is a special line, in this thread I'm replying to, that touched a nerve in my guts. But I am more of a Gentoo user still (since 2008, Debian since 2013 I think). Such as: Air-Gapped Gentoo Install, Tentative https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-987268.html Uninstalling dbus and *kits (to Unfacilitate Remote Seats) https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-992146.html I'm not giving you those links for no reason. While I am not a programmer, or am just minimally one, I have extensive user (of late it has become advanced user) experience with censorship and even surveillance that a user, in a country ruled by a regime, is exposed to (have unveiled it for everybody to see, and will give another two links below exactly where there is a special line that touched a nerve in my guts). On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 03:28:59AM -0500, Gravis wrote: Nik, please remove yourself from the mailing list. --Gravis Completely wrong, as attitude and even as merely a wish! Somebody stated elsewhere in these few days on this list: it's free software, and it's open source! Contrary from banning other people's opinions, we must allow them. I agree completely with Nick, but I won't jump on you Gravis, as I don't jump on some Gentoo members who, well, support NSA, and troll against me... I'll let them like SELinux, Google and other stuff which I despise! As long as they let me tell other members what I think and suggest of SELinux, Google and stuff! And tell what I advise that they use and generally do! On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 3:11 AM, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp dr.kl...@gmx.at wrote: Am Donnerstag, 5. März 2015 schrieb Gravis: Here is just one example of what I am referring to. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data yeah, if you actually read the article you will learn that google (like everyone else) complies with the law. if you look further, you learn that the NSA tapped private fiber lines for both google and yahoo. so what exactly did google do to offend you? Don't know about Nick, but I can tell what they did to offend *me*: Really? The Surveillance Engine Terminated All My Videos http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3t=113059 And this is where they let the local regime do what they like against me: a clickjacking that only packets captured show: Postfix smtp/TLS, Bkp/Cloning Mthd, Censorship/Intrusion https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-999436.html#7685200 and: brute mess-up of my connection: Air-Gapped Gentoo Install, Tentative https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-987268-start-25.html#7552466 (identified the files right after it happened back in 2014, revealed all only these days) How about that, Gravis? The good do-no-evil Google? Ruining 5 yrs of my work? And the other two links are just samples of pranks and filthy routines from my nearly everyday life with my dear regime online? NOTE: All the links above I've checked before posting, barring future double-check report on any that was not right, further down this email thread. For future readers from the archives. is your objection that they were hacked by the NSA or that they strong armed by the NSA? reporting child pornography to the FBI as legally required by law? I don't understand where you got child pornography from. you wrote considering their ties to government agencies and the FBI is a government agency. --Gravis Sorry, no. FBI, NSA and US as a whole is a hostile government. Cooperation is forbidden by law (at least for normal citizens). Please do a realitycheck outside US. Right! Cooperation is against Free Open Source Software natural laws and declared customs! Nik -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA. I really like this line! ___ Dng
Re: [Dng] Plan for Devuan to use Mozilla products as is
you are not a victim here. your videos were terminated because they violated copyright law which they are required to enforce. apparently you are a repeat offender and thus correctly deemed untrustworthy. You don't know that to be truth what you are claiming. And you are calling me a lier by saying that. the link you posted links to a clip from Al Jazeera that was taken down due to copyright infringement. you do realize that content from Al Jazeera is copyright and that posting it without permission is copyright infringement, right? if you do stuff like that repeatedly they ban you. are you claiming you didn't post the videos and that there is a conspiracy to oppress you? if so, you have a persecution complex. And, just for the record, this is, IMO, enough from me in my defence. i don't even know what you are defending. you gave me links to some posts and i do not know what those are supposed to signify. For now let's try and discuss just these two of my queries. make a new topic if you have a question. - Gravis On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 10:59 PM, miroslav.rov...@zg.ht.hr wrote: This is textual representation from links -dump https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/thread/20150305.194152.e5e48ea9.en.html . ||M...|| Gravis 2015-03-05 05:22 ||M| Dr. Nikolaus Klepp 2015-03-05 08:04 ||.M Dr. Nikolaus Klepp 2015-03-05 08:11 ||.M Gravis 2015-03-05 08:28 |M.| shraptor shraptor 2015-03-05 11:06 M..| Nuno Magalhaes 2015-03-05 13:04 M..| Jaromil2015-03-05 13:21 M..| Nate Bargmann 2015-03-05 17:29 ...M-\ miroslav.rovis12015-03-05 17:51 ...M\| Martijn Dekkers2015-03-05 19:41 ...||M Gravis 2015-03-06 00:07 ...M| miroslav.rovis12015-03-06 00:43 ...|M Gravis 2015-03-06 01:09 ...M Gravis 2015-03-06 01:12 And the message from among the above that was not delivered to my mailbox is: ...||M Gravis 2015-03-06 00:07 So I have to reply to it by constructing if from: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150306.000753.8bd4b265.en.html where I see it. I don't think there is an easy way to make it appear where it is due, in the right place in the thread linked above as shown in your mailboxes, such as if you use Mutt like me or other good mail client, kind Devuan members (or in this thread that some kind reader is reading from the web in the future). I mean I can make it appear where it's due, right after the message that it is a reply to. While it could be a fault in my system (there are threads about messages not showing in mutt-users mailing list), it is much more likely this is my dear regime's work. Seen such a lot of it to even expect it. Really? The Surveillance Engine Terminated All My Videos http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3t=113059 you are not a victim here. your videos were terminated because they violated copyright law which they are required to enforce. apparently you are a repeat offender and thus correctly deemed untrustworthy. You don't know that to be truth what you are claiming. And you are calling me a lier by saying that. You're unnecessarily attacking me, just for your love of Google, which I don't have anything against, your love of Google, but here you're making their falsity to become truth, and without knowing, without having seen any of my videos to know whether they were in breach of copyright. And they were not! your other comments pointing to forum posts are nebulous in meaning. - Gravis Like Google and Yahoo sending mail from my machine, maybe? a clickjacking that only packets captured show: Postfix smtp/TLS, Bkp/Cloning Mthd, Censorship/Intrusion https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-999436.html#7685200 Or like my Grsecurity tip, which is approaching 30,000 views? Grsecurity/Pax installation on Debian GNU/Linux http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=16t=108616 Or my new topic on dbus? Updating and keeping your Gentoo non-poeterized https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1012022.html Which of these three is nebulous to deserve disrespectful top posting of yours and taking my words out of context, so other members would not see my thought but your crippled representation of my thought ( in the email of yours, where you cut this thought of mine: Well, I don't respond in kind. I was derided and attacked earlier in Debian Fora, but my topics and my tips
Re: [Dng] My pinning list is getting longer :)
I don't think php5-fpm needs systemd at all for process management. of course it's not needed, it's an option after all. however, systemd can probably do it a bit faster and more reliably. i'm just saying it's not like this is completely out of place. it's important to maintain perspective because when you lose it, you become just another irrational fool. --Gravis On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Anto arya...@chello.at wrote: On 04/03/15 04:49, Gravis wrote: from: http://php.net/manual/en/install.fpm.php FPM (FastCGI Process Manager) is an alternative PHP FastCGI implementation with some additional features (mostly) useful for heavy-loaded sites. this actually makes some sense because systemd does do process management. regardless, my guess was that it was enabled because everybody is using systemd, so why not? and i expect it will happen even more in the future. --Gravis Hello Gravis, I don't think php5-fpm needs systemd at all for process management. It has been able to manage it alone before systemd was even born. I think this is more related to the un-educated assumption (if not stupid) as you guessed. I also believe this will happen even more in Debian and all major distros, which makes me really sad as I can not seem to do anything about it as an ordinary user. I knew C programming language just enough for me to pass the exam in the university years ago, so I am not a programmer. I really wish that I was a programmer after I had disaster issues on my PC last year, so I could fork Debian myself. What happened was that I carelessly hit y after executing dist-upgrade that made systemd and its gang screwed up my PC. I have always been using the packages from Debian testing repository since 2002 and I had never had serious issues like that. I straight away switched to LMDE on that day as I didn't want to waste my time rolling back to Debian wheezy. When I heard about Devuan 2 months ago, I switched back to Debian wheezy then jessie with limited systemd component as I thought it would be a safer base to move to Devuan. Kind regards, Anto ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] release names
Not sure how many of these planets exist, but if we run out of planet names, there's always the many moons of the solar system (165 by last count). And then there are the comets. Minor planets can be dwarf planets, asteroids, trojans, centaurs, Kuiper belt objects, and other trans-Neptunian objects.[1] The orbits of *670,000 minor planets* were archived at the Minor Planet Center by 2015.[2] The first minor planet to be discovered was Ceres in 1801 after we run out of minor planets, we're going to let you pick the names. ;P here's the first 500 names: Meanings of minor planet names: 1–500 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meanings_of_minor_planet_names:_1%E2%80%93500 --Gravis On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 5:10 PM, Robert Storey robert.sto...@gmail.com wrote: Just want to say that I really like this idea of naming releases after minor planets, such as Ceres. It's a way cool idea. I nominate pseudo-planet Sedna for a future Devuan release. Not sure how many of these planets exist, but if we run out of planet names, there's always the many moons of the solar system (165 by last count). And then there are the comets. Quite frankly, I always thought it was rather lame to name Debian releases after the toys in Toy Story. Then again, I thought the movie was lame too. Looking forward to Ceres, Robert ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] release names
So, basically we will be using mithology for names. 1) spelling 2) basically, just series of letters but one might call that an oversimplification. they are the names of minor planets. --Gravis On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 8:36 PM, Ricardo Larrañaga ricardo.larran...@gmail.com wrote: So, basically we will be using mithology for names. Ahead on the list it gets a little more variety, but initially is mostly gods and godess On Mar 4, 2015 9:25 PM, Gravis rin...@adaptivetime.com wrote: Not sure how many of these planets exist, but if we run out of planet names, there's always the many moons of the solar system (165 by last count). And then there are the comets. Minor planets can be dwarf planets, asteroids, trojans, centaurs, Kuiper belt objects, and other trans-Neptunian objects.[1] The orbits of 670,000 minor planets were archived at the Minor Planet Center by 2015.[2] The first minor planet to be discovered was Ceres in 1801 after we run out of minor planets, we're going to let you pick the names. ;P here's the first 500 names: Meanings of minor planet names: 1–500 --Gravis On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 5:10 PM, Robert Storey robert.sto...@gmail.com wrote: Just want to say that I really like this idea of naming releases after minor planets, such as Ceres. It's a way cool idea. I nominate pseudo-planet Sedna for a future Devuan release. Not sure how many of these planets exist, but if we run out of planet names, there's always the many moons of the solar system (165 by last count). And then there are the comets. Quite frankly, I always thought it was rather lame to name Debian releases after the toys in Toy Story. Then again, I thought the movie was lame too. Looking forward to Ceres, Robert ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Plan for Devuan to use Mozilla products as is
a lot of devuan packages are just rebuilt debian packages. we dont need more work than we already have, so why bother with re-re-branding? if you can't stomach chromium then i suggest you check out qupzilla because it has to speed of chromium, the interface of firefox and no google integration. check it out: http://www.qupzilla.com --Gravis On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 1:45 PM, Anto arya...@chello.at wrote: Hello Everybody, I guess it is very likely that the first release of Devuan will use the re-branded Mozilla products. As far as I understood, the main reason for the re-branding is the Mozilla license that does not comply with DSFG (https://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines). Or the other way around? Sorry, I don't really understand licensing. Is Devuan going to use the exact same guideline? If not,is there any plan for Devuan to use Mozilla products as is in the future, especially Firefox and Thunderbird? Kind regards, Anto ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] My pinning list is getting longer :)
They are our enemies and wish to make things as difficult as they can for us. They kicked us out and are working to make sure we cannot use that which is now their thing. even if what you claim is true, so what? give the trolls enough rope and they will hang themselves, we only need to leave them to their devices. in the mean time, building our safe haven, devuan is a much better use of our time than fighting in their forums. --Gravis On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 4:22 PM, Tom Collins tomcollins...@mail.com wrote: I was reading the debian-user mailing list some time ago and one of the systemd triumphalists stated that they will be compiling in the requirement to use systemd in every package that supports it. They stated that they won and anyone who doesn't like it can leave. So you aren't imagining things, that is what they stated they would do. They are our enemies and wish to make things as difficult as they can for us. They kicked us out and are working to make sure we cannot use that which is now their thing. These people really are bastards. I wish there was some way to fight them. This disrespect should not be allowed to go unanswered. They spit on us every chance they get. There should be repercussions. I think it was somewhere in this thread: https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/02/msg00641.html how to remove libsystemd0 from a live-running debian desktop system Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2015 at 9:31 AM From: Didier Kryn k...@in2p3.fr To: dng@lists.dyne.org Subject: Re: [Dng] My pinning list is getting longer :) Le 04/03/2015 04:00, Anto a écrit : Hello Everybody, I feel like being forced to (indirectly) use libsystemd0 on my VPS just now. I pinned my php5 packages to version 5.4.36-0+deb7u1 on wheezy, because php5-fpm version 5.6.5+dfsg-2 on jessie requires libsystemd0. When I did dist-upgrade just now, it wanted to upgrade dpkg, dpkg-dev and libdpkg-perl from version 1.17.23 to 1.17.24. But it also wanted remove php5-fpm. It turned out that the new version of dpkg breaks php5-fpm ( 5.6.4+dfsg-3). So I just included those 3 packages into my pinning list, to see which other packageswill force me again to use anything related to systemd. I know that this is the risk of including jessie repository in my source.list, as it is quite clear that they have made the decision to support systemd. I guess they will always link any packages into systemd as much as possible, even if there is a possibility to compile the package without dependency to anything related to systemd. Looking at http://php.net/ChangeLog-5.php, they have put the option --with-fpm-systemd starting from version 5.5.0. So I assume that I can re-compile the php5 source from jessie repository with the option --without-fpm-systemd. Did anybody try that before? Or do I have to use the upstream source to be able to use that option? Kind regards, Anto ___ I stay carefully with wheezy and no backports, until I have the opportunity to install Devuan. Don't see any strong need to upgrade anyway. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng[https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Plan for Devuan to use Mozilla products as is
Here is just one example of what I am referring to. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data yeah, if you actually read the article you will learn that google (like everyone else) complies with the law. if you look further, you learn that the NSA tapped private fiber lines for both google and yahoo. so what exactly did google do to offend you? is your objection that they were hacked by the NSA or that they strong armed by the NSA? reporting child pornography to the FBI as legally required by law? I don't understand where you got child pornography from. you wrote considering their ties to government agencies and the FBI is a government agency. --Gravis On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 11:23 PM, Ed Ender skae...@excite.com wrote: Here is just one example of what I am referring to. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data I don't understand where you got child pornography from. -Original Message- From: Gravis [rin...@adaptivetime.com] Date: 03/04/2015 09:16 PM To: Ed Ender skae...@excite.com CC: dng@lists.dyne.org dng@lists.dyne.org Subject: Re: [Dng] Plan for Devuan to use Mozilla products as is Personally, I would rather stay away from the world of Google. Although I have no real say in the matter. That IMO would be a security breach, considering their ties to government agencies. ties to which government agencies? such as what, getting hacked by the NSA? reporting child pornography to the FBI as legally required by law? --Gravis On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 7:06 PM, Ed Ender skae...@excite.com wrote: Personally, I would rather stay away from the world of Google. Although I have no real say in the matter. That IMO would be a security breach, considering their ties to government agencies. Just my 2 cents! Ed -Original Message- From: T.J. Duchene [t.j.duch...@gmail.com] Date: 03/04/2015 06:14 PM To: dng@lists.dyne.org Subject: Re: [Dng] Plan for Devuan to use Mozilla products as is On 03/04/2015 01:25 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: I guess it is very likely that the first release of Devuan will use the re-branded Mozilla products. As far as I understood, the main reason for the re-branding is the Mozilla license that does not comply with DSFG (https://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines). Or the other way around? Sorry, I don't really understand licensing. Is Devuan going to use the exact same guideline? If not,is there any plan for Devuan to use Mozilla products as is in the future, especially Firefox and Thunderbird? If I recall correctly - which I may not be - the problem was that if Debian wanted to use the Firefox name and logo, then Firefox must approve every patch in advance, even security updates. Debian said that was/is ridiculous so they were not allowed to use the logo or the name for any Mozilla software. Quite frankly, I agree with that stance. It is stupid. But it is also understandable. Mozilla does not want to be blamed for a bad patch they had nothing to do with. If I might offer an alternative suggestion? I'd rather see Devuan default to Chromium with NAPI support than use Firefox, period. As for Thunderbird, I see no reason to use Mozilla's version. Unless things have changed since I last heard, it undermaintained anyway. Mozilla was going to sunset the entire project, but outcry stop them. As far as I know, they update it with new versions of XUL but do little else. I don't think it has had new features not related to keeping up with Firefox in over five years. t.j. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Plan for Devuan to use Mozilla products as is
They do not support anything but the current version unbuildable on a stable Debian release because they freely import dependencies They don't even support RHEL 6 you have this /backwards/, your _software_distributor_ isn't supporting Chromium. there are literally tens of thousands of distros, so expecting a software vendor to make a backported package for $MY_FAV_DISTRO is narcissistic at best. --Gravis On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 11:48 PM, John Morris jmor...@beau.org wrote: On Wed, 2015-03-04 at 21:09 -0500, Jude Nelson wrote: Besides issues related to Chromium's poor support for privacy features, it also has no real security support. No comment on the privacy features, but I beg to differ on the security. The fact that the Linux build of Chromium runs each tab and plugin in its own seccomp'ed process and runs them all separately from a kernel process puts the browser worlds ahead of Firefox in terms of security. Excluding project Electrolysis (which I look forward to), the fact that Firefox runs every tab in the same process means that one bad tab can compromise the whole browser without too much effort. By contrast, Chromium's kernel/process-per-tab factoring has led to secure browser designs [1] where this class of exploit and others are provably impossible. Methinks you missed the point. Forget the kewl tech and concentrate on the people problem. Chromium/Chrome can't be secure on a Linux based on Debian, period. Full stop, end of discussion. They do not support anything but the current version and it quickly becomes unbuildable on a stable Debian release because they freely import dependencies on every new and shiny bit they see and expect it to be present in the very latest version. They don't even support RHEL 6, you have to grovel around on the Internet for wildly unsupported and dubious procedures (involving repackaging Fedora binary packages and shoving them down /opt and LD_LIBRARY_PATH trickery) to keep Chrome running, I know because I'm supporting fifty some odd workstations right now running CentOS 6 and need more than one browser available. They didn't just drop support for 6 when RHEL 7/Centos 7 shipped, no they dropped it over a year before the beta for 7 even appeared. And that is the 'Enterprise' distro with the big corporate accounts; Google doesn't give a crap. Moz didn't either, but when enough large sites complained about the constant version churn they at least delivered an LTS version. They are far worse than Moz when it comes to treating Linux (Android/Linux and Chrome/Linux excepted of course) as a red headed stepchild. If you want Chrome you run Windows, ChromeOS or a bleeding edge Linux distro. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Weekly News XIV - Where no toy has gone before
As we have such naming and as where no toy has gone before is so close to a citation, can i suggest/hope that we can dedicate Jessie to Leonard Nimoy? no way, the first has to be dedicated to Lennart! just think, without our pal lenny, none of us would have ever met and many programs (including init systems) would never have been created! steamrolling distros with SystemDeutschland has forced people to create new systems to avoid it's evergrowing reach and we will be better off because of it. basically, he finds small issues, makes a solution that becomes such a large problem that it forces people to make new and better solutions. it's like you have a wall and you always meant to put in a window and when lenny puts a gapping hole in the wall and covers it with saran wrap and declares he's installed a window, you realize you gotta fix that wall and you might as well put in a nice window too. :) --Gravis On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 9:41 PM, Franco Lanza next...@nexlab.it wrote: On Tue, Mar 03, 2015 at 04:19:06AM -0300, hellekin wrote: ## Editorial It's hard to believe it's winter when you have to mop the sweat out of your keyboard, but the intensity of this week's conversations, and @golinux's [penguins][0] made thinking about cold easier. Cold reigns in deep space as well and Devuan users will appreciate the identity moving away from toyland: although Debian Jessie refers to an adventurous toy cowgirl with an attitude, Devuan's Jessie refers to a place no toy has ever gone before. Exit the naughty `Sid` brat, welcome `Ceres`, largest object in the asteroid belt, and the first minor planet discovered in the 19th Century. That's right, [Devuan release codenames][1] will be named after minor planets of our solar system. As far as visual identity goes, and although the logo still consumes a significant bit of attention, it won't be revealed before the code: part of the distro's publishing policy is to deliver working code before a shiny image. Welcome to Issue XIV of the DWN, cooked _al dente_ by your interim editor, @hellekin, with the invaluable help of @golinux and @joerg_rw. Thanks hellekin and all DWN contributors, with this editorial you made my day, i love it :D As we have such naming and as where no toy has gone before is so close to a citation, can i suggest/hope that we can dedicate Jessie to Leonard Nimoy? -- Franco (nextime) Lanza Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy SIP://c...@casa.nexlab.it web: http://www.nexlab.net NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org you can download my public key at: http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers Key ID = D6132D50 Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7 4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50 --- echo 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq | dc --- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] V^DNLC starts to be subsumed by systemd
They feel if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear. what gives you that idea? they dont collect usage stats or anything, they just give you the /option/ to have the player look up missing information about what is playing or check if there is a new release. what is so sinister about that? you sound like a lot like a troll. --Gravis On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Tom Collins tomcollins...@mail.com wrote: Yes, that is what I mean (Video Lan Client) It also phones home these days by default: http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/downloading-and-installing-vlc-media-player-in-win.pageCd-storyboard,pageNum-11.html#slideshow The linux we knew is done unless everything is forked. The new generation of developers are not trustworthy. They feel if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear. Bascially what that means is that their world view is correct and anyone who is against their worldview _should_ be found out and be subject to the law (which they support). They are totalitarians and feel that the world is theirs and it is only right that people follow their worldview and people that do not be punished and pushed out of the world. Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 at 5:25 PM From: Svante Signell svante.sign...@gmail.com To: dng@lists.dyne.org Subject: Re: [Dng] V^DNLC starts to be subsumed by systemd On Tue, 2015-03-03 at 18:11 +0100, Tom Collins wrote: http://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=15/03/02/1037248 VLC Media Player Gains Support For Logging To Systemd's Journal Honestly, I am starting to suspect that userland will need to be entirely forked to stay away from systemd. It seems every developer these days is infected with a mind virus: from the phoning home that todays linux software does (be it the browsers or things like V^DNLC) to the acceptance and then reliance on systemd, to the cavilear attitude towards security of any kind, today's developers are not the trustworthy people of the past. Linux is now where the microsoft world was in the 90s, with the same type of persons. (if you're not doing anything wrong Yes, we may be doing things that you say are wrong, guess what we live in different cultures and maybe are mortal enemies) I assume you mean VLC in your mail at all entries, not VNC, that's something different :) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] My pinning list is getting longer :)
from: http://php.net/manual/en/install.fpm.php FPM (FastCGI Process Manager) is an alternative PHP FastCGI implementation with some additional features (mostly) useful for heavy-loaded sites. this actually makes some sense because systemd does do process management. regardless, my guess was that it was enabled because everybody is using systemd, so why not? and i expect it will happen even more in the future. --Gravis On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 10:00 PM, Anto arya...@chello.at wrote: Hello Everybody, I feel like being forced to (indirectly) use libsystemd0 on my VPS just now. I pinned my php5 packages to version 5.4.36-0+deb7u1 on wheezy, because php5-fpm version 5.6.5+dfsg-2 on jessie requires libsystemd0. When I did dist-upgrade just now, it wanted to upgrade dpkg, dpkg-dev and libdpkg-perl from version 1.17.23 to 1.17.24. But it also wanted remove php5-fpm. It turned out that the new version of dpkg breaks php5-fpm ( 5.6.4+dfsg-3). So I just included those 3 packages into my pinning list, to see which other packageswill force me again to use anything related to systemd. I know that this is the risk of including jessie repository in my source.list, as it is quite clear that they have made the decision to support systemd. I guess they will always link any packages into systemd as much as possible, even if there is a possibility to compile the package without dependency to anything related to systemd. Looking at http://php.net/ChangeLog-5.php, they have put the option --with-fpm-systemd starting from version 5.5.0. So I assume that I can re-compile the php5 source from jessie repository with the option --without-fpm-systemd. Did anybody try that before? Or do I have to use the upstream source to be able to use that option? Kind regards, Anto ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
Contrary to what most modern programmers would like to promote, I do not believe for one second that mandatorily garbage collected, bounded languages create better code design. I honestly can't see all this failing around of code written in Python, Perl or Ruby :) garbage collection is actually a compounding issue, meaning that while it may not be a problem for programs that are only active for a few minutes before terminating, it is a problem for programs that are high intensity or run indefinitely. it's typical (just ask an admin) for internally developed server side Java business database applications to require they be restarted daily because the devs cant figure out why they are running out of memory and it's easier just to have it restarted. if they were developing in perl, python or any other number of GC languages, it would still be an issue. while it /can/ be used properly, garbage collection is more of a hassle than it's worth. --Gravis On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 4:26 AM, KatolaZ kato...@freaknet.org wrote: On Mon, Mar 02, 2015 at 02:59:40AM -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote: [cut] Contrary to what most modern programmers would like to promote, I do not believe for one second that mandatorily garbage collected, bounded languages create better code design. I would subscribe to precisely the reverse, actually. If there is a flaw in the collector or the bound check, you have an extremely hard to fix problem that affects virtually everything. You are also continuously wasting resources on overhead for features that can fail without warning. Even if you set that aside, the reality is that you are investing in all of that wasted overhead for vanishing returns. At no time are those features a 100% effective solution to the problems they were intended to solve, and they create entirely new ones. So what good are they, really? Any code that does not work reliably isn't worth much. I honestly can't see all this failing around of code written in Python, Perl or Ruby :) Bad code is bad code in C, C++, Perl, Python, LISP, or whatever other language you can think of, and bad code will either get better or die. IMHO the evil is not in any specific language, but in the way you use it. Concerning performance, well it is not always the most important thing. I personally use C a lot for simulations and scientific calculations, but I would never do data analysis and postprocessing in C, since it would require every time a few days just to have a running thing to be used only once or twice, while I can do the same task in Python with 10 minutes coding and a few minutes more processing. In that case, *my* time and *my* performance is more important than the time it takes to the machine to crunch a few million numbers :) While I totally agree about the necessity to teach good programming practices to young coders, I am convinced that there is no such thing as the perfect language. It's just a matter of taste. And if you are a good coder you will write good code in asm, C, Perl, Python or Erlang. If you are not, then your code will be crap anyway :) HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] three important UI features
I don't know. Given the entire NetworkManager's dependency on dbus, Dbus is just the mechanism other programs use to interact with NM. If you were to carve out the dbus API from NM, it would still manage your network as before, but you'd need to add a different way to control it. For me it would be easier to build something simple from scratch than rip out and replace other peoples' code from something unfamiliar to me. i think the implied message was that dbus is merely an IPC mechanism and removing would simply result in replacing it with another and thus a (mostly) moot point. --Gravis On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: On Sat, 28 Feb 2015 13:34:37 -0500 Jude Nelson jud...@gmail.com wrote: I don't know. Given the entire NetworkManager's dependency on dbus, Dbus is just the mechanism other programs use to interact with NM. If you were to carve out the dbus API from NM, it would still manage your network as before, but you'd need to add a different way to control it. -Jude :-) For me it would be easier to build something simple from scratch than rip out and replace other peoples' code from something unfamiliar to me. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Can't hit Internet from Valentines
now we're tech support? remove -net nic -net user (works for me) --Gravis On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 12:19 AM, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: Hi all, I installed Valentines according to instructions, a few weeks ago. It worked, but I don't remember whether I tested getting to the Internet at that time. Now, I do this: qemu-system-x86_64 -enable-kvm -hda /scratch/devuan_disk -boot c -net nic -net user -m 256 -localtime ping 8.8.8.8 (Google's DNS) loses all packets. Here's my route command and ifconfig eth0, performed as root: root@devuan:~# route Kernel IP routing table Destination Gateway Genmask Flags Metric RefUse Iface default 10.0.2.20.0.0.0 UG1024 00 eth0 10.0.2.0* 255.255.255.0 U 0 00 eth0 root@devuan:~# ifconfig eth0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 52:54:00:12:34:56 inet addr:10.0.2.15 Bcast:10.0.2.255 Mask:255.255.255.0 inet6 addr: fe80::5054:ff:fe12:3456/64 Scope:Link UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 RX packets:105 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets:113 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000 RX bytes:11041 (10.7 KiB) TX bytes:16236 (15.8 KiB) loLink encap:Local Loopback inet addr:127.0.0.1 Mask:255.0.0.0 inet6 addr: ::1/128 Scope:Host UP LOOPBACK RUNNING MTU:65536 Metric:1 RX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisions:0 txqueuelen:0 RX bytes:0 (0.0 B) TX bytes:0 (0.0 B) root@devuan:~# cat /etc/resolv.conf # Generated by NetworkManager nameserver 10.0.2.3 root@devuan:~# It hangs when I ping known good Google public DNS 8.8.8.8. How do I narrow this down? Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What if systemd infects the kernel?
I have been aware of the pending assimilation of systemd into the kernel since Linus dramatically rejected Kay Sievers' code last spring. a huge reason for it's rejection was it's lack of documentation. this situation hasnt changed much in regard to kdbus. Recently there has been renewed chatter about the impending doom. it's extremely unlikely. however, if for some reason it does, it can be excluded if one chooses to exclude it. some of the stuff written for kdbus actually has been accepted (about six months ago), in particular the sealed memory file descriptor stuff. this actually is good code and is the reason that kdbus has zero copy. with this, we can now use unix domain sockets to pass memory with the same zero copy goodness as kdbus. the question remains now is what good is the rest of kdbus? since the documentation is lacking, we dont know and thus it's not getting into the kernel. if kdbus eventually gets into the kernel, it will have been well inspected and reviewed and deemed worthy of inclusion. this is the complete opposite of how systemd has been operating. Why not one response? probably because gmail (among other services) is automatically marking your emails as spam since they are claimed to have been sent _by_ yahoo's server but yahoo's server is denying it. either you are not using yahoo's server to actually send your emails or the mailing list server is misconfigured. --Gravis On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 8:07 PM, Go Linux goli...@yahoo.com wrote: On Sat, 2/28/15, Go Linux goli...@yahoo.com wrote: Subject: What if systemd infects the kernel? To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Saturday, February 28, 2015, 1:05 AM I have been aware of the pending assimilation of systemd into the kernel since Linus dramatically rejected Kay Sievers' code last spring. Recently there has been renewed chatter about the impending doom. But I'm not quite clear how that would affect devuan. Hoping you can help me get a grip on the situation: Would a systemd-infected kernel bring devuan to its knees? IOW will devuan require a systemd-free kernel to run properly? Would the VUAs be able to disinfect the kernel? Or is that something that would have to go through Linus? Is there any chance that the kernel devs would be willing to maintain two separate kernel versions? Or will devuan be up a creek if/when that happens? I'm assuming the VUAs have thought about this - I can't imagine they would they be going through this monumental effort only to be foiled by a systemd kernel - and that there is a solution. Please enlighten me. :) golinux Either this is an incredibly stupid question or it's the elephant in the room. Why not one response? This inquiring mind would like to know. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [OT] Debian problems with Jesse - was simple backgrounds
My point is that Perl and Python as system software are forced on you in a Linux distribution as a requirement in much the same way that systemd is. You can't get rid of them this is actually something i'm looking into fixing. my preference would be to make a standard POSIX base to build upon. the LSB is a bad joke. --Gravis On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 11:49 PM, T.J. Duchene t.j.duch...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, 2015-02-28 at 18:11 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote: With all respect, T.J., those are merely programming languages--shell, C and C++ are also hard to extract--but none are trying to dictate policy. I would not consider C in that group, as the system actually requires the C library for the OS to function on the most basic level, not to mention that the kernel, Perl and Python are actually written in C. My point is that Perl and Python as system software are forced on you in a Linux distribution as a requirement in much the same way that systemd is. You can't get rid of them, without pulling a DIY. Linux as a platform does not require them to function. What makes it relevant to the conversation is that it is all about attitude. They are enthusiastically endorsed by communities that refuse to acknowledge that either can be as much of a hindrance as a help in many cases. For example, Python as a programming language is designed specifically to dictate how you do things, i.e. Zen of Python: There should be one-- and preferably only one --obvious way to do it. Sometimes Linux can be its own worst enemy. Other tools we're familiar with also dictate policy at some level such as dpkg and apt, however, the authors of those tools don't start throwing around the term haters whenever someone sets out to compile from source outside of their policy. Do you see the difference? There is some truth to that, but you can revisit that virtually anywhere there are fanboys/fangirls. The fact that few authors like LP can use the term haters to divert attention from the real issues, and then get a free pass just shows how easily the issue has polarized others and how easily the sheeple are manipulated into going along. t.j. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds
How much should systemd damage the image of GNU/Linux before everybody realise how much of a nonsense it is? the image of linux is /not/ what will cause change. - people will switch when the annoyance of unexpected systemd behavior outweighs the annoyance of getting rid of systemd - developers will stop using it when something nicer with wider support comes along or they personally are fed up with systemd. - distros will keep requiring it until they start losing lots of people to distros without systemd or have enough complaints/support issues to warrant change. we need to make the first two things happen if there is any hope of the third happening. --Gravis On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 1:13 PM, KatolaZ kato...@freaknet.org wrote: On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 01:56:56PM +, Matthew Melton wrote: [cut] Just to support my point, Debian has a great logo, but this is what is currently happening to the users of Jessie, thanks to the systemd-nonsense: https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/02/msg00013.html Think they have found a solution after reading the followups. Reminds me that someone complained they couldn't terminate fdisk if started by systemd during boot. Might offer to help them...once I have stopped laughing of course. Ha ha. Well, I still find it hard to believe that a modern Unix OS might be stuck at boot because I forgot to connect an ethernet cable... This is the essence of the systemd-nonsense. In that case it was just a laptop, but can you imagine something similar happening on a production server? Who is going to pay for the downtime that these little glitches are going to cause? How much should systemd damage the image of GNU/Linux before everybody realise how much of a nonsense it is? :( KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges
trying to look different for the sake of looking different is stupid. --Gravis On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Nuno Magalhães nunomagalh...@eu.ipp.pt wrote: On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 9:55 PM, Go Linux goli...@yahoo.com wrote: And why penguins? I think in terms of non-conformity, the platypus makes much more sense. Why? 'Cos us humans and out need for recognizable patterns can't quite classify it :) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Combatting revisionist history
That leaves the 2% benefit of cgroups, whose benefit boils down to, when all the bullfeathers are removed, reaping zombies. Zombies were an irritation to all of us, but we've lived with them for 15 years, and their removal certainly doesn't justify a software V'ger. there is a bit more to cgroups than that but there is no reason another init manager can't perform the same task without becoming The Blob. --Gravis On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: [Sorry Gravis, I could find no shorter way to say this] On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 15:49:34 -0600 T.J. Duchene t.j.duch...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, 2015-02-25 at 13:11 -0800, Go Linux wrote: This excellent analysis of the systemd debacle was just posted over on FDN. Should be required reading IMO. Enjoy! http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20t=120652p=570371 golinux I must respectfully disagree. I find the analysis to be very biased toward one side of the discussion, And the author tells us that. Now I'd like you to admit that you're very biased toward the other side of the discussion. I'm proud to say that I'm biased in the same direction as the author. So is the vast majority of this mailing list, whose project was created in order to choose one's init system without trashing the entire OS. as well as creating their own definitions to fit their side. If something replaces init, it is by definition an init system. So then, if I replace your car's radio by replacing the whole car, it is by definition a car radio? Whether it does more or less than the previous init is immaterial to that simple fact. I find no credible element of truth in the preceding sentence. But anyway, disregarding the definition of init system, the author is dead bang right on: * Debian isn't other distros * no one—has ever articulated a value proposition for systemd that adequately addresses its implementation costs. About Debian isn't other distros, he characterized the situation exactly right, plus the fact that when Debian moved, all the Debian descendents moved with it (except a couple that were born to exclude systemd, like DNG). And, his assertion was even more right back in September, when many of the brains behind DNG were helping out with Debian. About value proposition vs cost: 90% of the value ennunciated by systemd fans boil down to it boots faster, because any benefit achieved by socket activation and the like could be simulated by strategically placed sleep statements in any other init. And keep in mind that if boot speed and reliability are truly important to one, one would be unlikely to start the number and type of services that would be problematic to boot speed. AND, although I've gotten systemd to boot in 4 seconds on a spinning platter, it took 30 seconds after that to get into the Desktop Environment, because a lot of boot tasks including networking happened in the desktop environment. AND, I got Epoch to boot in 7 seconds, and runit to boot in 11 seconds, on the same hardware, and they both took less time to get to the GUI. The other 8% have to do with making the GUI responsive to changes in the system, and vice versa. Nice, but not essential, and not worth a 15 major component monolith tied together with thick, not well documented interfaces. Not only that, but there are plenty of other ways to get that feature without gumming up the system by eliminating advantages of interchangeable parts. That leaves the 2% benefit of cgroups, whose benefit boils down to, when all the bullfeathers are removed, reaping zombies. Zombies were an irritation to all of us, but we've lived with them for 15 years, and their removal certainly doesn't justify a software V'ger. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Important changes in Linux 3.20 (4.0?)
oh good. glad to read that our linux kernel friends are more sane than our distro friends. --Gravis On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 12:47 AM, Isaac Dunham ibid...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 11:40:06AM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 10:26:01AM -0500, Gravis wrote: Kernel live patching makes KDBUS and systemD support mandatory! i'm weary of KDBUS but live patching is something i consider too dangerous. --Gravis But why would it have to depend on systemd? Erm...I'm reading that kdbus was *not* merged. FWIW, kdbus was specifically mentioned when Linus blacklisted Kay Sievers. V3 seems to have gotten a lot of This needs a *lot* more documentation. Thanks, Isaac Dunham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] OT: Linux kernel and the force behind it
CDE (common desktop environment) Not familiar with that. Is it related to Inferno? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Desktop_Environment now what is Inferno? --Gravis On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 12:06 PM, Hendrik Boom hend...@topoi.pooq.com wrote: On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 11:36:20AM -0500, william moss wrote: FreeBSD supports XFCE Via its package manager (pkg) or /usr/ports, so it must be possible to run XFCE w/o the systemd daemon(s) or shared objects. Also, I configured server farms for decades (retired now) and a simple GUI was convenient. People, even highly technical one, are pictorially oriented; as a species we relate to images. Especially, it appears, mathematicians. That's why mathematical notation is so two-dimmensional. Making it linear is a concession to typesetters, not to mathematicians. In that context we ran the CDE (common desktop environment) and its derivatives at Bell Labs (ATT) using Sun SPARC and HP RISC servers. Not familiar with that. Is it related to Inferno? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] OT: Linux kernel and the force behind it
RPC had already been solved in a general way by SunRPC (ONCRPC) before either GNOME or KDE existed interesting I'd never read about those until now. however, there was no GPL (compatible?) version for Linux (still isn't?) and the internet didn't have it's information as organized back then. sure you can find information easy with wikipedia... but wikipedia started in 2005. this was also the era when xml was the solution to every problem which somewhat explains why the messages are encoded in xml. who knows, maybe the did know about ONCRPC but didn't like it and decided to make their own. --Gravis On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 1:43 PM, Jude Nelson jud...@gmail.com wrote: Nevertheless, RPC had already been solved in a general way by SunRPC (ONCRPC) before either GNOME or KDE existed. Heck, the earliest versions predate Linux. Given the combined functionality offered by PolicyKit/Polkit and dbus, I'm beginning to think that FreeDesktop has succeeded in re-inventing the virtual filesystem (albeit poorly). -Jude On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 10:25 AM, Gravis rin...@adaptivetime.com wrote: But I wonder why people have developped dbus instead of using a ready-made, well-tested, lightweight, language-agnostic middleware? Yes it exsts; there's at least one, ZeroMQ. D-Bus has existed for about a decade if not more. As far as I can tell, ZeroMQ has existed for a few years. Also, D-Bus is written in the fashion that matches how the GTK API which is a C API. libdbus has lots of language wrappers. D-Bus is more for RPC than IPC which is an issue as there is no standard in POSIX for RPC. --Gravis On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Didier Kryn k...@in2p3.fr wrote: Le 20/02/2015 13:48, Martijn Dekkers a écrit : I would say +1 for everything that is written with this e-mail and above. However, there's one thing here, there are more people running servers than people running linux on their desktops, so IMHO devuan should first focus on the servers. I strongly believe that if we manage to pull together a kick-ass, up-to-date, and rock-solid server build that does not require systemd, we will see serious uptake from many, many users. Guys, I don't think there is contradiction between server and desktop. There is a difference in the user base and installed applications, not in the OS. dbus and udev/eudev/mdev/vdev/ are just useful services which make life easier if they are not poeterized, but could remain optional. I think most desktop users expect these services, but they understand it is not the top priority of the devs. By do-it-all desktops, I was targetting Gnome and KDE, not Xfce. It is too bad that xfce4 is now contaminated, But in my installed Wheezy servers and desktop, it is not. I've no complaint against it. Is there anything new in the Jessie version, appart from infection? Concerning dbus, there is a need for publisher/subscriber communication on the desktop. But I wonder why people have developped dbus instead of using a ready-made, well-tested, lightweight, language-agnostic middleware? Yes it exsts; there's at least one, ZeroMQ. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] OT: Linux kernel and the force behind it
it's my understanding that most additions to the kernel from hardware companies are for drivers. i can only assume the rest are for new features they want to use or random bug fixes. i think the linux kernel itself is safe from needless radical changes because the linux kernel people actually get the last say on whether or not they accept a patch. frankly, i think it's a good system due to it's limited scope and direct oversight. the origin of the systemd problem isnt that anyone can publish code, it's the lack of oversight in distributions possibly due to the massive scope of the software they are distributing. tl;dr: Quality Control is very very very important. --Gravis On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 7:36 AM, hal vmli...@charter.net wrote: Hello all, and great work on the Alpha! I am tagging this off-topic as it doesn't really pertain to Devuan development except in a tangential aspect. I've always thought it a bit odd that just a handful of people, leading certain Open Source projects, could get away with steering any certain Linux distro directly into the path of oncoming traffic. I ran across this article yesterday and thought it may explain some of the things that happened with SuSE, Caldera, Gnome and now Debian. There are many changes that have happened with Linux distros over the years and many just never made sense to me. Some new implementation supposing to make things easier was just a mess to work with (NetworkManager, resolvconf, udev, MDNS). Usually it was claimed It is easier for users but often the case was wrong. When things work, they work OK, but good luck if you need to fix it when it doesn't work. This articla was a bit concerning because the largest contributers to the Linux kernel come from private businesses now. That's always been fine with me until things like systemd happen which completely alter every aspect of the system causing new problems at every level. The fact that most of the major distros jumped on the band wagon without question was also strange to me. It now makes sense to me because the collective of private business makes up the majority of the development. There are far more private interests funding the drive behind these changes than there are hackers to fix/oversee them. http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/02/linux-has-2000-new-developers-and-gets-1-patches-for-each-version/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] trios already packaging openrc and removed libsystemd0
Luke, I removed the edit because it was completely out of place. It was a list of links and you added a huge line of text to a single entry. without-systemd.org is not directly linked to Devuan, so dont hold it against the project. - Gravis On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 6:54 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton l...@lkcl.net wrote: On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 1:17 AM, Jaromil jaro...@dyne.org wrote: TRIOS is a great effort. I personally use zfs in production and approve their technical choices including openrc which I believe to be a good candidate for Devuan's future too. with Devuan we will keep the focus of matching Debian as much as possible for the 1.0, yet I look forward to Dragan's co to coordinate on tasks and infrastructure we can share to have TRIOS benefit from our work and perhaps reach more target builds. meanwhile let's give TRIOS the visibility it deserves and a big clap! i added some further explanatory text here: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page with the intention of researching further links and adding a bit more, but someone who goes by the name Gravis immediately reverted what i had done with absolutely zero explanation whatsoever. i therefore feel disinclined to make any further contribution to editing pages where my time is completely and utterly wasted. l. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] The value of good docs: was pre-alpha-valentine on qemu
A document that makes installation and use trivial, and makes it simple, is worth its weight in gold. the instructions dont actually weigh anything so saying it's worth it's weight in gold is saying they aren't worth anything. ;) --Gravis On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 11:36 AM, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: On Sun, 15 Feb 2015 02:52:12 + KatolaZ kato...@freaknet.org wrote: Hi guys, a few simple steps to have Devuan-pre-alpha-valentine installed and running on qemu: 0)# wget http://mirror.debianfork.org/devuan-jessie-i386-xfce-prealpha-valentine.iso 1)$ apt-get install qemu-kvm 2)$ qemu-img create devuan_disk 5G (creates a 5G qemu disk image for devuan) 3)$ qemu-system-x86_64 -cdrom devuan-jessie-i386-xfce-prealpha-valentine.iso -hda devuan_disk -boot d -net nic -net user -m 256 -localtime (installs Devuan on the qemu disk image) 4)$ qemu-system-x86_64 -hda devuan_disk -boot c -net nic -net user -m 256 -localtime (boots the system) Just two words: IT WORKS :) No way did I have time to install the pre-alpha Valentine, and that fact distressed me because I was one of those asking for a quick release as a confidence builder. But I just didn't have the time. Then KatolaZ exactly documented the four steps to installation, and I said I can do that in my sleep, while doing other work! So I did it, and it worked (although slowly because -enable-kvm wasn't in the commands). KatolaZ' four step document. A document that makes installation and use trivial, and makes it simple, is worth its weight in gold. Thanks KatolaZ. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] About Devuan's audience
You dont have to be a server admin to be concerned about security. I'm a desktop user/developer and while customization is nice, security is paramount. Revelations about the NSA has really made me reconsider system security for my box and linux in general. Obviously, systemd has a fundamental design flaw: it has no design because it's completely ad hoc! I'm certain that if not already, sometime in the future a remotely exploitable bug will be found and will have the terrifying potential of being able to control any networked machine that is running it. So for the sake of the future, I'm working on a seamless security paradigm that will minimize the capabilities programs to minimize the damage in the event that they turn hostile. Don't hold your breath though, I'm still designing it. UNIX/POSIX has impressively robust security mechanisms, we just have to apply them properly. - Gravis On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 8:44 AM, Didier Kryn k...@in2p3.fr wrote: Hi folks. Considering Devuan is a major lifeboat of free Linux-based OS, I'm anxious about its destiny and therefore trying to figure out who is onboard, I mean the audience. 1) It is clear, by reading this list that part of us are mostly concerned with servers. It is perfectly arguable that people involved in servers' deployment do not want to dedicate time to tweaking a Linux-based desktop. Macintosh is definitely for these guys, first of all because its VM works like a breeze. Forget dual-boot: it's a waste of time. Nate told us the other day that a majority of Debian developpers follow the Mac way; the more I think of it the more sense it makes to me, although it is not my way. Gnome and KDE are aiming to produce a free equivalent of the Mac. OK, they're dropping freedom in the way, but they will produce at least desktops you don't have to pay for. They may eventually pull the carpet under the feet of Apple some day ... or not. 2) I also read that there are people who want to truely own their desktop. Some call them sentimentalists, but they are the people from and for wich free software arised. To summarize, I see two populations in the audience of Devuan, with slightly different motivations (I find myself in both): 1) Servers' admins, who have professionnal concerns about security and productivity and don't necessary care of the desktop, 2) DIY (and FIY ;-) ) addicts who want whole control on their desktop. This all comes from reading you guys during the past month, including Mr FUCK FUCK FUCK :-). But maybe I missed some people. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] About Devuan's audience
Should we understand it's based on POSIX permissions and not on ad hoc daemon? yes. however, there is currently a problem with flooding the system with hundreds of new users and groups. i'm investigating the possibility of using extended file attributes. --Gravis On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 11:20 AM, Didier Kryn k...@in2p3.fr wrote: Gravis, Should we understand it's based on POSIX permissions and not on ad hoc daemon? I'll keep breezing, but a little faster :-) Didier Le 16/02/2015 16:55, Gravis a écrit : You dont have to be a server admin to be concerned about security. I'm a desktop user/developer and while customization is nice, security is paramount. Revelations about the NSA has really made me reconsider system security for my box and linux in general. Obviously, systemd has a fundamental design flaw: it has no design because it's completely ad hoc! I'm certain that if not already, sometime in the future a remotely exploitable bug will be found and will have the terrifying potential of being able to control any networked machine that is running it. So for the sake of the future, I'm working on a seamless security paradigm that will minimize the capabilities programs to minimize the damage in the event that they turn hostile. Don't hold your breath though, I'm still designing it. UNIX/POSIX has impressively robust security mechanisms, we just have to apply them properly. - Gravis On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 8:44 AM, Didier Kryn k...@in2p3.fr wrote: Hi folks. Considering Devuan is a major lifeboat of free Linux-based OS, I'm anxious about its destiny and therefore trying to figure out who is onboard, I mean the audience. 1) It is clear, by reading this list that part of us are mostly concerned with servers. It is perfectly arguable that people involved in servers' deployment do not want to dedicate time to tweaking a Linux-based desktop. Macintosh is definitely for these guys, first of all because its VM works like a breeze. Forget dual-boot: it's a waste of time. Nate told us the other day that a majority of Debian developpers follow the Mac way; the more I think of it the more sense it makes to me, although it is not my way. Gnome and KDE are aiming to produce a free equivalent of the Mac. OK, they're dropping freedom in the way, but they will produce at least desktops you don't have to pay for. They may eventually pull the carpet under the feet of Apple some day ... or not. 2) I also read that there are people who want to truely own their desktop. Some call them sentimentalists, but they are the people from and for wich free software arised. To summarize, I see two populations in the audience of Devuan, with slightly different motivations (I find myself in both): 1) Servers' admins, who have professionnal concerns about security and productivity and don't necessary care of the desktop, 2) DIY (and FIY ;-) ) addicts who want whole control on their desktop. This all comes from reading you guys during the past month, including Mr FUCK FUCK FUCK :-). But maybe I missed some people. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list...@lists.dyne.orghttps://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Important changes in Linux 3.20 (4.0?)
No one pushing this seems to be really concerned with the security, or the safety of the user interfaces. there are a few ways this could change. - a single senator/congressman has their ride hacked/bricked - several people die in fiery car wrecks from bad code or a virus - a self-propagating virus bricks millions of cars so... the question is if should we wait for bad things to happen to lots of people or should we brick one jerk's limo. --Gravis On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 2:39 PM, Hendrik Boom hend...@topoi.pooq.com wrote: On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 12:50:53PM -0500, Jude Nelson wrote: IVI == In-Vehicle Infotainment. The stuff that runs your new car's UI. The thing that scares me because I suspect it's just not as well debugged as the software that used to run a car only a few years ago? Well, what scares me it that the entertainment hardware doesn't seem to be isolated from the more essential stuff that actually, you know, drives that car. And the entertainment stuff is just being piled on willy-nilly. And there are now touch screens that you have to use while driving. Whatever happened to keeping one's eyes on the road? No one pushing this seems to be really concerned with the security, or the safety of the user interfaces. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Important changes in Linux 3.20 (4.0?)
What exactly does IPC have to do with patching? the patching is done via IPC. --Gravis On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 8:41 PM, Vlad 2389...@gmail.com wrote: What exactly does IPC have to do with patching? On Feb 15, 2015 5:22 PM, Jaromil jaro...@dyne.org wrote: hi On Sun, 15 Feb 2015, jo...@trash-mail.com wrote: As you may have read, Linus Torvalds considers to call the next Linux release 4.0 instead of 3.20. Many people have been wondering why, but yea read that back a year ago. makes sense. there is one quite radical feature hidden in the new version. - OverlayFS now supports multiple read-only layers. FINALLY! and I hope btrfs and zfs advance. I use the latter, real good stuff raidz and snapshotz to the masses - Continued support improvements to Sony's PlayStation 3 with Linux even though Sony no longer supports the Other OS functionality. very interesting! is there already a signed firmware by those who cracked it? just like it was with the xbox? I guess so... there is plenty of those around, are they still low on RAM? Kernel live patching makes KDBUS and systemD support mandatory! Who will maintain our kernel fork? Or maybe we should just move on to OpenSolaris, the only true Unix left? We have been warning people of this happening, but they did not listen! trololololo ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] recommendation for consideration: keep as close to debian as possible
KatolaZ is 100% correct. Software distributions are remarkably evolutionary in nature and while it's possible to co-exist, it's a useful populous and funding that keeps distros alive. Devuan is the divergence of Debian user base so to stay alive we need to increase our number of useful people as fast as possible and/or get funded. While appearance doesn't count for much once you are invested, it's an important attracting element. The question is, who are we trying to attract that is best for our survival and what will we do to attract them. I'm not sure how many will actually switch to avoid systemd but they will be our users if we release soon enough. Like KatolaZ wrote, the whole Debian project might crumble and the truth is Devuan may be the acid rain deepening the cracks that have appeared on the stone statue we know as Debian. As long as we dont make absurdly radical changes, it should be easy for derivatives and independent packagers to switch to the Devuan base. --Gravis On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 3:12 AM, KatolaZ kato...@freaknet.org wrote: On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 04:01:58PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: [cut] so. to clarify: is it the intent of the devuan team to: (a) create a fork which will always, at all times, without fail, require that a debian repo be placed in /etc/apt/sources.list or (b) create a fork of the *entire debian package repository*, such that it will end up over time to be as completely incompatible with debian as ubuntu is today. this is very very important to make absolutely and unambiguously clear on the web site, as well as to developers who may wish to get involved, _and_ to end-users. to illustrate this, whilst i am sure that you have the confidence and the desire to continue this project - and i say this *entirely without prejudice* - it is perfectly reasonable and rational and logical to surmise that at some point the devuan project _could_ conceivably fail, forcing people to reconsider what they are doing, *or*, much more benignly, end-users may, for reasons which are entirely their choice, *choose* to return to debian. now, if it has not been made clear that an end-user, once they are on devuan, may *NEVER* return to debian because there is no transition path, they're going to be pissed. i feel that, this, therefore, should be something that is discussed and made absolutely clear. Luke, I don't know what Devuan will be in 5 years, I don't even know if it will still exist by then, and I think nobody can assure you that the transition to and from Devuan from and to anything else will be smooth and easy and straightforward and painless. Before a few months ago I had never thought that I could ever been forced to leave Debian after about 15 years of using and loving it. I hope that eventually we will see a happy ending to this story, but I don't have good feelings about that. I am concretely scared that the whole Debian project might crumble, piece by piece, under the axe of progress and usability, and with it most of its derivatives and companions. For me it's either having a (possibly Debian-like) functioning and fuss-free GNU/Linux, which I can tinker with as like and I have done so far, or going somewhere else, e.g. to FreeBSD. HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] John Goerzen asks, Has modern Linux lost its way?
install IceWM? but-but-but it's C++, so it's large and bloated, right? right??? ಠ_ಠ --Gravis On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 8:20 PM, Isaac Dunham ibid...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 09:30:58AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: On Thu, 12 Feb 2015 07:33:51 +0200 Martijn Dekkers devuan-li...@dekkers.org.uk wrote: Whilst I am still utterly amazed with how awesome Linux servers are, I don't think we will ever get there with desktops. Just for fun, try Openbox with custom key-combos, including an easy to hit key-combo to run dmenu. You might like to customize dmenu so its menu displays down the screen instead of across the top (-L). Or just: apt-get install icewm Comes up and works *right* out of the box, though it might not look like everyone's first choice (the default theme is rather gray.) You can add shortcut keys in ~/.icewm/keys: key Shift+Print scrot -u -b key Print scrot And all the default keybindings are in the example preferences; there are plenty of features you might not know about: $ grep Tile ~/.icewm/preferences # KeySysTileVertical=Alt+Shift+F2 # KeySysTileHorizontal=Alt+Shift+F3 In other words, you can rearrange windows with alt+shift+F2-F5, move the top window to any corner you like with the keys bound to KeyWinArrange*, and so on...out of the box, no customization needed. Thanks, Isaac Dunham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Nice feature for vdev
steve, vdev has nothing to do with the screen resolution and will not alter it any more than a Hello World program would. --Gravis On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: Hi Jude, I have no idea if this would be possible, but if it is, it would be nice. It would be nice if either: * vdev doesn't change the screen resolution/display method, or * vdev enables you to specify screen resolution/display method Here's the source of this desire. I have bad eyesight. No matter how I set VGA or console or whatever in Grub, when udev runs, it changes the screen to a framebuffer with teensy-tiny fonts I can't read. Which means all my virtual terminals end up with that same teensy-tiny font. The bottom line is that I can't specify a size for the print on my boot screen and virtual terminals, and for a guy with bad vision, that's a problem. It would be wonderful if vdev could include a way to either not change the video from what Grub booted, or to enable the user to specify some kind of command line arg or file content to tell vdev what size type to use, and/or maybe even whether or not to use a framebuffer. Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan
wow. congrats on being highly offensive on your very first post. anyway, i looked at Bastille and it's a highly tweaked script and headed toward being a decade out of date. frankly i'm not surprised it was dropped. Linux security needs an overhaul but your bastille script is off mark. --Gravis On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 8:15 AM, Usspookes Lovesystemd usspookslovesyste...@muchomail.com wrote: Could you please revive bastille linux for devuan. It's an essential hardining script and it is unlikely anyone will have a secure system without it. For some reason on the newer debian 7s it does not run (is this by design?) On the older debian 7s it runs fine. Debian removed it around the time they had the 2 year ssh bug (ie: intentional redesign of SSH's random num generator by an idiot package maintaine or plant). Why? Who knows, it still worked fine then... but you know if something doesn't get updates, if that thing is FINISHED.. well then it gets kicked out of Debian by the faggots/enemies. (Same thing with SysV: no updates for years: DEPPPREEECIATEEEDD!!) Seems like EVERYTHING is being torpedoed. Can you de-orphan this script please. http://bastille-linux.sourceforge.net/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/bastille-linux/ You can get a deb from here: http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/b/bastille/ Another thing essential for security is the grsecurity patch to the kernel. Has debian ever packaged it. No. MANDRAKE Linux packaged it (as hardedned kernel) in 2001. Easy to use friendly distro packaged it even, but a serious distro, for somereason no. Debian is compromised. (Even the wikileaks founder knows that) _ The Free Email with so much more! = http://www.MuchoMail.com = ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Kali Linux has systemd?
My question is, is it part of the default installation or did you (inadvertently) add it afterwards? --Gravis On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Clarke Sideroad clarke.sider...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/02/15 11:34 PM, Ed Ender wrote: On 2015-02-10 19:52, Wim wrote: Hi, Mark inquired about the source of my info on kali. I just saw kali on the list at: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page#Operating_systems_without_systemd_in_the_default_installation Decided to do some research. Apparently, systemd is already present in the latest kali 1.0.9: https://forums.kali.org/showthread.php?24275-Ran-updates-and-now-no-GUI-at-all https://forums.kali.org/showthread.php?23603-About-Kali-Linux-and-systemd It appears the list isn't up-to-date and they should take kali off. Cheers, Wim I have removed Kali from the wiki since I put it there. But.. I have Kali 1.1.0 (2015-02-09) and can't find systemd in it. I have apt-get updated upgraded. Using [find / -name systemd*] I have found 2 folders 1 file: /etc/systemd /lib/systemd /usr/share/gnome-shell/js/gdm/systemd.js And noticed sysvinit at boot. Can you confirm that systemd is installed in your installation? And if so, how you got it? ___ I have Kali here and it has libsystemd-daemon0 and libsystemd-login0. This is a several times over dist-upgrade and not a new install. I find it conceivable that a new install might install the whole mess, just as a new install of Debian stable and backports will. Kali is after all Debian 7 with mods and apps added. IMHO Kali would benefit from getting clear of the choking, restricted carapace of systemd and make a switch to Devuan when it becomes available. Clarke ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Raspberry Pi 2
It doesn't work on a majority of packages, as I understand (build scripts that rely on running compiled code, that don't respect CC, and many other causes.) oh that's dreadful. sounds like something that should be fixed and submitted upstream. --Gravis On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:49 AM, Isaac Dunham ibid...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 04:30:30AM -0500, Gravis wrote: to my knowledge, cross compilation has minimal overhead. while having native targets is good for testing, it won't have a significant impact on compile time. It doesn't work on a majority of packages, as I understand (build scripts that rely on running compiled code, that don't respect CC, and many other causes.) You can use qemu, but that's generally ~80% CPU overhead. Thanks, Isaac Dunham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Raspberry Pi 2
that's not cross compiling, that's compiling on an emulator. cross compilers directly generate code for the target platform. A cross compiler is a compiler capable of creating executable code for a platform other than the one on which the compiler is running. For example, a compiler that runs on a Windows 7 PC but generates code that runs on Android smartphone is a cross compiler. --Gravis On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 2:33 PM, mutek mu...@riseup.net wrote: Il 10/02/2015 10:30 Gravis ha scritto: to my knowledge, cross compilation has minimal overhead. while having native targets is good for testing, it won't have a significant impact on compile time. agreed, to my experience, cross compilation using qemu-arm-static in an armhf chroot inside an amd64 host (Asus Vivobook S200 i3 1,4GHz 4GB RAM and Debian Wheezy) is a lot faster than working direct into rpi B, same feelings working inside UDOO quad and BPI m ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] LILO
I'm not really a fan of any bootloaders but grub2 has always worked which is more than i can say for other bootloaders. -- Gravis On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 4:50 PM, Daniel Cegiełka daniel.cegie...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-02-08 22:13 GMT+01:00 T.J. Duchene t.j.duch...@gmail.com: On Sunday, February 08, 2015 12:00:01 PM dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote: From: Daniel Cegiełka daniel.cegie...@gmail.com To: bill.m.m...@gmail.com CC: Dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Today 04:01:42 AM NOTE: I plan to finish development of LILO at 12/2015 because of some limitations (e.g. with BTFS, GPT, RAID). If someone want to develop this nice software further, please let me know ... http://lilo.alioth.debian.org/ Conclusions? If we want to use lilo, then, we need to add this functionality. I like this idea, but this means a lot of work :/ Daniel With the greatest respect intended toward your situation, Daniel, LILO is something that should have been retired a long time ago. GRUB is by far the better maintained boot-loader. If you are still using LILO on old machines (pre-2008) or machines with questionable EFI compatibility, I'd recommend grub-legacy instead. Everyone else that actually has a decent UEFI firmware should be using GRUB2 by now. The newer versions of Windows will not dual boot into UEFI mode without UEFI support in the loader. Even if you hate Windows intensely, and never use it, you should be using GPT rather than MBR. GPT not only offers support for partitions/drives larger than 2 TB, it also has better redundancy than MBR. If the MBR area (first sectors) of a drive is physically unreadable, then the entire disk might (not always) be rendered unusable . GPT keeps a copy of the partition table at the beginning of the drive and a backup at the end of the disk, greatly increasing your chances of recovery should the first sectors of the drive fail. This is my posting: https://www.mail-archive.com/dng@lists.dyne.org/msg00480.html I use linux even without partition... with Grub 2 :) In this thread you can note that the Grub 2 does not have too many fans. In my opinion, the best choice is extlinux... but we discuss the same topic in two threads. Daniel T.J. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] LILO
From my perspective, Grub2 is the systemd or bootloaders. grub2 is well tested, does only one thing, has no interdependencies and is easily removed/replaced. so tell me, how is it the systemd of boatloaders? --Gravis On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 5:30 PM, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: On Sun, 8 Feb 2015 16:56:37 -0500 Gravis rin...@adaptivetime.com wrote: I'm not really a fan of any bootloaders but grub2 has always worked which is more than i can say for other bootloaders. -- Gravis It certainly works if the package manager manages it, but I've found it next to impossible to DIY Grub2 into things as simple as not doing framebuffers, or changing the font, and as far as adding a menu item for something like an Epoch or runit init, fageddabaddit! From my perspective, Grub2 is the systemd or bootloaders. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] What's new in Systemd
Unless Devuan intends to drop or fork every single piece of software that decides to use systemd's facilities, it's going to be a war of attrition as things go on, no matter the arguments against systemd. for the vast majority of programs that depend on systemd, you can just recompile programs with the flag to exclude systemd library dependencies with no further effort required. the things that are really intertwined with systemd are part of Gnome. patches and API implementations are being made for those parts. --Gravis On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 5:54 PM, t.j.duch...@gmail.com wrote: On Monday, February 02, 2015 07:57:23 PM Vlad wrote: Hey Lennart if you dislike Devuan that much feel free to go back to freedesktop.org or whatever? You misunderstood what I meant. I was in a hurry, and I admit, I should have phrased it better. Mea culpa. The reality is that no matter what anyone does, systemd is here to stay, and it is likely going to be a long term issue, requiring a long term solution. Consider that upstream projects entirely outside of Devuan's control are going to be aiming dependencies on systemd. Gnome already does, and there are plains for KDE to take a similar path. There is no escaping this fact of life. Linux as an OS is developed in a hodgepodge of distributions. The reason systemd has found such wide adoption is that it simplifies their work. As long as distributors use it, more and more project developers are going to create dependencies on systemd. Unless Devuan intends to drop or fork every single piece of software that decides to use systemd's facilities, it's going to be a war of attrition as things go on, no matter the arguments against systemd. Unless systemd implodes of its own accord, which is unlikely - Devuan is probably going to have to provide some form of compatibility in the future. This will be the case, regardless of how you or I might feel on the subject, especially if kdbus gets integrated into the Linux kernel. If that happens, it might as well be game over for systems that do not provide at least a shim. I think that uselessd or FreeBSD's compatibility projects are probably the most likely solutions. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
jude is correct, kernel mode setting resolved this a shade under a decade ago. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_setting --Gravis On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 3:13 PM, Jude Nelson jud...@gmail.com wrote: (If I recall correctly, non-root X is only possible with systemd or on openbsd, so that's a moot point for now.) From what I recall reading up on this, you should be able to run X as an unprivileged user on Linux without systemd as long as your video card has a driver with KMS support. IIRC, most distros ship a setuid X wrapper that opens the video card device file, does the privileged KMS ioctl()'s on it, and then hands them off the real X server by exec()'ing it without closing them. As long as X can go on to read sysfs and the input device files as well, you should be good to go without either udev or systemd. ChromeOS does this, for example, and it uses Upstart. -Jude On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 2:18 PM, Isaac Dunham ibid...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 12:59:51PM -0500, Neo Futur wrote: going further than just grub, I think it could be good for devuan to be the distro coming with different default packages, a few ideas : * grub/lilo as a default bootloader * trinity ( great fork of kde3 ) as a default DE * a grsecurity enabled kernel ? * eudev or other udev alternative * more generally always choosing the alternatives that are the most respectful of users and unix philosophy, as defaults I will note that there is an interesting complication with grsecurity kernels: The X server needs to be able to read sysfs or else have a connection with a daemon that can, or drivers will not be properly loaded and configured. grsec has an option that makes sysfs and procfs unreadable except by root, so that X needs udev or must run as root. (If I recall correctly, non-root X is only possible with systemd or on openbsd, so that's a moot point for now.) another idea to make devuan different : * shipping a server oriented flavour, with no DE as a default, a grsec kernel as a default and only the packages needed for a server, that could also be used as a minimal install, small download, that you can later upgrade, add a DE . . . No DE as a default: does this this mean not having GNOME/KDE but perhaps X11, (v)twm or similar, xutils/xapps, and xterm? Or does it mean no X? I presume it would include openssh and maybe a lightweight vim. Thanks, Isaac Dunham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Boot loader?
Steve, to my knowledge, in Debian, there aren't any dependencies on any bootloader that aren't for configuration tools, so unlike systemd you can replace it at will. in fact, i'm pretty sure you can completely remove all bootloader related packages and use something else completely. That said, the initial release of Devuan will have the minimal amount of changes to enable people to choose to not have systemd. --Gravis On Fri, Jan 30, 2015 at 8:07 PM, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: On Sat, 31 Jan 2015 00:19:55 +0100 Svante Signell svante.sign...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, 2015-01-30 at 17:39 -0500, Steve Litt wrote: Hi all, Is it just me, or is Grub2 as complex and error prone as systemd? I'm wondering if we can have alternate boot loaders. So, what's the problem with grub? No problem with Grub. Grub2 is the problem. Millions of files messing with millions of variables, and sometime following the instructions of which programs compile those files and which program puts it on the mbr/guid or whatever it's called actually works. I can probably find you five different ways in the Internet to change the font size on booting, and none of them works. Just like systemd, it's great if someone else does it for you, it's horrific if you have to do some DIY. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] UEFI, GPT
thanks for the info, Adam. i'll be sure to test it though that's about all that can be done for the first release. -Gravis On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 4:35 PM, Adam Borowski kilob...@angband.pl wrote: On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 10:21:56AM -0500, Gravis wrote: after that i dont know but we would need hardware to test on to make any direct changes. While for comprehensive testing you need an array of real hardware (as quirks vary wildly), for basic tests you can use VMs: * virtualbox: just click Use EFI * qemu: apt-get install ovmf (from non-free) qemu-system-x86_64 -enable-kvm -bios /usr/share/qemu/OVMF.fd ... -- Cᴇᴛᴇʀᴜᴍ ᴄᴇɴꜱᴇᴏ ꜱʏꜱᴛᴇᴍᴅɪɴᴇᴍ ᴇꜱꜱᴇ ᴅᴇʟᴇɴᴅᴀᴍ. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] UEFI, GPT
Just to clear up the EFI misconception, Debian can be installed on EFI computers. it's my understanding that EFI is actually a deprecated precursor to UEFI. from wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface): Intel developed the original EFI (Extensible Firmware Interface) specification. Some of the EFI's practices and data formats mirror those from Microsoft Windows.[5][6] In 2005, UEFI deprecated EFI 1.10 (the final release of EFI). The Unified EFI Forum manages the UEFI specification. -Gravis On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 12:02 AM, rlfrost fros...@mindspring.com wrote: Just to clear up the EFI misconception, Debian can be installed on EFI computers. I run it on three of my own-- 2 Acer desktops and 1 ASUS laptop. I use rEFind as a boot manager, as it it very straightforward, and does a very nice job with all OS entries. I understand that there are instructions for installing Debian with GRUB only floating around, but I don't find it necessary. RLFrost ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] UEFI, GPT
the first release will be almost the same as debian with the exception of packages needing systemd. after that i dont know but we would need hardware to test on to make any direct changes. On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 9:36 AM, Robert Storey robert.sto...@gmail.com wrote: Hello everyone. This is my first post, though I've been lurking on the mailing list for awhile. Until now I've been content to shut up and let more knowledgeable folks discuss the technical details, but today I encountered an issue which hasn't been discussed here yet: support for UEFI boot (as opposed to BIOS) and a hard disk partitioned as GPT (as opposed to MBR). I have two computers, one desktop and one laptop, and before today I kept them both partitioned MBR style. Both are set up for multi-booting different Linux distros, particularly important now that I'm looking to experiment with alternatives to Debian since it got infected with systemd. Anyway, today I decided that it was about time I switched from MBR to GPT, so I went ahead and did that (for the laptop only). Took me most of the day to get that working since I've had no previous experience with GPT. I discovered that in order to do this, I had to turn off CSM/legacy options to prevent accidentally booting in BIOS - getting GPT to work seems to require using UEFI to boot. Note that I did NOT turn on secure boot - it is disabled. Another thing I discovered is that I couldn't get Debian to install (or even boot from a USB stick) once I had configured the hard drive with GPT. I wound up installing Ubuntu successfully. I learned that it was necessary to add a boot manager (aside from Grub2, which acts as a boot loader) - I chose to use rEFInd. If you're not already familiar with rEFInd, you can find out all about it here: http://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/ Anyway, the important point is that Debian with UEFI/GPT was a disaster. Since I was setting up for multi-booting, I tried a number of other distros, and found that the problem is not limited to Debian. PCLinuxOS also failed to boot, even from a memory stick. Slackware Linux installed just fine. However, Salix (which is a Slackware derivative boasting a fancy live CD interface) had problems - it booted, but couldn't start Xorg. So the purpose of my post today is to plead with the developers to make sure that Devuan will work fine on UEFI/GPT, unlike Debian which seems to choke on it. Thank you for this mailing list, and the great work you are doing on Devuan. best regards, Robert Storey ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Jessie without systemd
so about TRIOS, what's the deal with the forum site https://foss.rs? it claims in the metadata to be lang=en-US and thusly google _REFUSES_ to translate it because it's already in English. -Gravis On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 7:15 AM, Dragan FOSS dragan.f...@gmx.com wrote: Sent: Monday, January 12, 2015 at 8:28 PM From: Go Linux goli...@yahoo.com To: dng@lists.dyne.org, Dragan FOSS dragan.f...@gmx.com Subject: Re: [Dng] Jessie without systemd On Thu, 1/8/15, Dragan FOSS dragan.f...@gmx.com wrote: Subject: Re: [Dng] Jessie without systemd To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Thursday, January 8, 2015, 4:28 PM This is TRIOS. Well, I finally burned a cd and gave the live disk a spin - it booted pretty quickly. Great job guys! TRIOS could be a viable option for me moving forward. Only a few comments. I have never liked the whisker menu - too many words, too many icons, too shiny UGH! Easy enough to get the default menu back though. :) A full Libre Office install means that I would have to be doing a custom install to get only the writer. (Lack of Libre Office as default is one reason I like Refracta.) Latest FF/Iceweasel sucks but nothing can be done about that. Everything was going pretty smoothly until I exited to reboot. The shutdown sequence did not stop to allow for removal of the disk. Instead it immediately rebooted the CD and there was no option in the menu to restart/reboot. It was a messy shutdown from the big button which I don't want to do again. This ungraceful exit needs to be fixed. Hardware: Gigabyte GA-B85-HD3 (in legacy mode), Intel Core i3-4130 Haswell Dual-Core 3.4GHz LGA 1150, no added audio or graphics card, wired connection Hi Go Linux, Thanks for your feedback. It has given me helpful information about some glitches, which we will try to fix for next release. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
