[DNG] FSF and human rights
The rise of the new inquisition as a respondent has aptly described is worrying. A person loses all their merits as a consequence of one error, controversial opinion or belief. An intellectually brilliant person like Stallman is more than one opinion or belief. The several decades they have lived for and the work they did to improve software accessibility to lower social classes can never be denied: this is a fact. Free open source software is more financially accessible to the lower classes. Besides that, software lock-ins are quite rare if not completely not present. I can only write about my particular case, in which free software has increased my ability to experience different types of applications without spending thousands of Euros. The new trend to discredit completely anyone who makes such controversial claims, is more like a modern socially accepted way of humiliation of anyone not adhering to what must be 'obvious'. There are other ways of admonishing anyone besides 'accepted' character assassinations. In my opinion, this is a move towards the past when beliefs challenging the accepted status quo were publicly chastised. The proper reaction should not be one of a complete character devaluation and assassination, but one which points out any possible problematic scenarios as a direct consequence of such an opinion or belief. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
This is by far the best analysis of how the first GR vote went down: Combatting revisionist history http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20=120652 Thank you a lot for that golinux! > There was never a systemd debate Yup. > [...] the discussion becomes fractured and disjointed, in what is literally the textbook definition of bikeshedding Yup, yup. Yup. Bookmarking that and sharing that around next time and/or with folks it feels necessary. Bernard (Beer) Rosset https://rosset.net/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights (OT)
Fri, 26 Mar 2021 22:58:39 +0100 - Riccardo Mottola : [...] > But I make a step back and do a further comment: I want politics out of > free software. [...] it should concentrate on > code, technology and access to it. And this is exactly what FSF is doing today: abandon the original philosophical (political, ideological) approach, to focus on purely legal and technical aspects, and on internal struggles behind which there are the interests of corporation that finance developers and projects the whose only interest is for profit ... Instead I would like the exact opposite: that FSF was essentially concentrated on the social and political aspects related to digital software and technologies in general, at a much higher and broad level of the defense of 4 poor legal rights that very little importance have with freedom and (more importantly) equality among people. Mainly (but not only) for these reasons, after so many years since 2009, I don't think I will still be a member of FSF. Regards al3xu5 -- Say NO to copyright, patents, trademarks and industrial design restrictions! Public GPG/PGP key: 8FC2 3121 2803 86E9 F7D8 B624 DA50 835B 2624 A36B pgp2cMQC5Y_0p.pgp Description: Firma digitale OpenPGP ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
Le 29/03/2021 à 11:14, Alessandro Vesely via Dng a écrit : > On Fri 26/Mar/2021 22:58:39 +0100 Riccardo Mottola wrote: >> I want politics out of free software. >> [...] >> >> Remember how many voices there were back then against "evil >> Microsoft" and IE6? >> >> But how many raise their voices today against Chrome? > > > And IBM before M$... > > >> Two weights, two measures. > > > If you mean Google (or just Chrome) is enjoying undue community favor, > I disagree. Google's curve is still growing and the handover to the > next actor is not yet on sight, but some marks are visible. For one, > Google doesn't appear among FSF's patrons after 2016[*]. By now, they > reached the evil's side. Opposing voices are raising, and I look > forward for a GNU SmartOS. > > If you look at the tangent envelope of all those curves, you see the > growth of software is very strong. It is certainly an economic > question. How, then, could you keep politics off? Free software > poses political problems. These problems are different from those of > the previous industrial revolution, but they are still political > problems. The war is ragin on the GCC devel list. Someone even suggested to "cut the communication channel between GCC and GNU" ! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
On Fri 26/Mar/2021 22:58:39 +0100 Riccardo Mottola wrote: I want politics out of free software. [...] Remember how many voices there were back then against "evil Microsoft" and IE6? But how many raise their voices today against Chrome? And IBM before M$... Two weights, two measures. If you mean Google (or just Chrome) is enjoying undue community favor, I disagree. Google's curve is still growing and the handover to the next actor is not yet on sight, but some marks are visible. For one, Google doesn't appear among FSF's patrons after 2016[*]. By now, they reached the evil's side. Opposing voices are raising, and I look forward for a GNU SmartOS. If you look at the tangent envelope of all those curves, you see the growth of software is very strong. It is certainly an economic question. How, then, could you keep politics off? Free software poses political problems. These problems are different from those of the previous industrial revolution, but they are still political problems. Best Ale -- [*] https://www.fsf.org/patrons/fy2016 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
> On 27 Mar 2021, at 03:55, John Morris wrote: > > On Fri, 2021-03-26 at 15:46 -0400, Steve Litt wrote: >> >> I'd suggest nobody sign anything, and nobody respond to this email. >> >> If you believe that Stallman was removed, shunned and criticized >> because of guilt by association, then it's not much of a stretch to >> believe that you will suffer the same fate if you defend him. And then >> any who defends *you* will suffer the same fate, ad infinitum. > > This exactly how a "climate of fear" works. Anyone who has looked three > seconds at the Cultural Revolution or any of the other descents into > madness of the 20th Century knows exactly what is going on here. Agreed. The very first thing that went through my mind when I read SL's post was ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_... > First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— > Because I was not a socialist. > > Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— > Because I was not a trade unionist. > > ... I met RMS when he did a speaking tour over here in the UK a while back. I can fully understand the comments people have made about him being the most infuriating person to deal with. But then, people with principles usually are in my opinion - the ones you need to watch out for are the ones who put "being liked" high on their list of priorities. With people who hold on to their principles, yo know where you stand - even if you don't like them. With the latter type you don't know where you stand - but best not turn your back lest you (figuratively) get a knife in it. I can say that for all his annoyances, his principles were clear - and held nothing whatsoever that I could imagine any **reasonable** person finding argument with. As to Debian, well one thing that goes through my mind is how flipping hypocritical they are when the Debian project would almost certainly not even exist if it weren't for RMS and both his technical output and his principled stance. Obviously individuals will need to consider their own situation. I will be signing in support of RMS. In the UK we still have (in spite of attempts by some to copy the worst ideas to come from the USA) a number of protections - so I have zero worries about losing my employment etc. And as I'm not on FaecesBorg I don't need to worry about that. My 2d worth, Simon ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
Le 27/03/2021 à 13:30, Steve Litt a écrit : > Alexis PM via Dng said on Sat, 27 Mar 2021 09:23:21 + (UTC) > >>> Hi All, >>> >>> Debian is engaging in a disgusting attack against RMS: >>> https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/vote_002 >>> >>> Does Devuan have resolutions to sign open letters? >>> I'd propose to sign this one instead: >>> https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ >>> >>> See also: >>> An orthodox analysis entitled Justice for Dr. Richard Matthew >>> Stallman, which recaps the whole story. >>> https://jorgemorais.gitlab.io/justice-for-rms/ >>> >>> A post, written by Hannah Wolfman-Jones, with a response from >>> civil-rights expert Nadine Strossen, former president of the ACLU. >>> https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web >>> >> I propose to extend the Devuan (and personal) signature of the quoted >> letter ( https://rms-support-letter.github.io/index.html ) also to the >> other existing letter of support (more detailed but little known) >> https://gitlab.com/KenjiBrown/rms-open-letter/-/blob/master/index.md >> (replicated at >> https://github.com/KenjiBrown/rms-open-letter.github.io/blob/main/index.md > You know, I might not be the best person to advocate for Devuan, > because pretty much everyone knows my Daily Driver Desktop (DDD) is > Void Linux. But I run Devuan on VMs, and if Void ever stops being > viable, Devuan is my Plan B. > > I think pretty much everyone also knows of my anti-systemd advocacy in > the critical 2014-2015 period, and I'm quite sure that advocacy cost my > business revenue in the five figures category. > > But this isn't about me. This is about some very brave VUAs who built > Devuan when everyone said it couldn't be done. Devuan is a very > valuable resource to many, many people. Without Devuan, the cause of > init-choice would be set back immensely. > > And now you're suggesting Devuan put that all at risk to take a stand > on RMS. Well you know what? No distro should get involved with > politics, and this RMS thing *is* politics. It cost Mint plenty of > users when they said supporters of Israel shouldn't use Mint, and it > just might destroy Devuan if they take a stand, on either side, on this > RMS thing. > > Listen, if you want to sign that stuff, go ahead. Don't come crying to > me if your boss fires you for cause for violating their social > networking policy, and you can't get unemployment because you were > fired for cause. > > But don't get the Devuan distro involved. Devuan is the work of many, > many people, for many, many years, around the once very unpopular > stance of init-choice. Don't put that at risk. > I second Steve here. There is no point in involving Devuan, in particular because certainly not everyone is on the same position. The appropriate response is personal. The Debian attackers are packed, but on the GCC mailing list 4 or 5 developpers asked individually for the bannishment of RMS. I consider the responses should be individual. I posted a mail to the GCC list and received a private reply by one of the developpers asking for the ban. -- Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
On Sat, 27 Mar 2021 17:50:07 +0100 Arnt Karlsen wrote: > On Sat, 27 Mar 2021 08:30:14 -0400, Steve wrote in message > <20210327083014.2b434...@mydesk.domain.cxm>: > > > Alexis PM via Dng said on Sat, 27 Mar 2021 09:23:21 + (UTC) > > > > > > Hi All, > > >> > > >> Debian is engaging in a disgusting attack against RMS: > > >> https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/vote_002 > > >> > > >> Does Devuan have resolutions to sign open letters? > > >> I'd propose to sign this one instead: > > >> https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ > > >> > > >> See also: > > >> An orthodox analysis entitled Justice for Dr. Richard Matthew > > >> Stallman, which recaps the whole story. > > >> https://jorgemorais.gitlab.io/justice-for-rms/ > > >> > > >> A post, written by Hannah Wolfman-Jones, with a response from > > >> civil-rights expert Nadine Strossen, former president of the > > >> ACLU. https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web > > >> > > > > > >I propose to extend the Devuan (and personal) signature of the > > >quoted letter ( https://rms-support-letter.github.io/index.html ) > > >also to the other existing letter of support (more detailed but > > >little known) > > >https://gitlab.com/KenjiBrown/rms-open-letter/-/blob/master/index.md > > >(replicated at > > >https://github.com/KenjiBrown/rms-open-letter.github.io/blob/main/index.md > > > > > > > You know, I might not be the best person to advocate for Devuan, > > because pretty much everyone knows my Daily Driver Desktop (DDD) is > > Void Linux. But I run Devuan on VMs, and if Void ever stops being > > viable, Devuan is my Plan B. > > > > I think pretty much everyone also knows of my anti-systemd advocacy > > in the critical 2014-2015 period, and I'm quite sure that advocacy > > cost my business revenue in the five figures category. > > ..me, I was playing catch-up after Groklaw.net, also been subject to > Kafka style games, next week I may be able to run for parliament here > as, er, a slightly more human vrms... with a possibly firmer climate > repair policy. ;o) > > ..climate is as simple as a chicken race, either we make farmland soil > out of the methane clathrate tundra gas, or, it will make farmland > soil out of us, just like it did with the dinosaurs, conodonts, > synapsids, placoderms and trilobites, in those wonderful natural > climate cycles so beloved by the gun toting far right. ;o) > > ..oh and the gun toters will love how climate compares to a shotgun > cartridge: Bang on that primer like we humans dug-n-burned coal 'n > oil, then watch the primer shake up 'n ignite the powder like we heat > 'n shake up the tundra with CO2, and the next thing you know is > watching the tundra shooting slugs straight up like a shot gun on TV > or youtube, yeehaw. > > > ..pump the excess heat out of the oceans and sell it as electricity, > is just another one of my ways to fix it. > > > But this isn't about me. This is about some very brave VUAs who > > built Devuan when everyone said it couldn't be done. Devuan is a > > very valuable resource to many, many people. Without Devuan, the > > cause of init-choice would be set back immensely. > > ..there's slackware.com. No apt, no deb, but we have alien, and we > have people on both sides, who can help set up a formal bug tracking > facility for slackware, that can also be set up to facilitate using > Slackware as a viable upstream alternative to Debian for Devuan. There is also PcLinuxOS even if rpm based but they have the full stack systemd free and could be a source of code for devuan as they already solved somehow most of the problems. Systemd free distros should pool their efforts to avoid duplication and to gain critical mass. Tito > > And now you're suggesting Devuan put that all at risk to take a > > stand on RMS. Well you know what? No distro should get involved with > > politics, and this RMS thing *is* politics. > > ..aye. People look for spine and integrity, once they wisen up. > > > It cost Mint plenty of users when they said supporters of Israel > > shouldn't use Mint, and it just might destroy Devuan if they take a > > stand, on either side, on this RMS thing. > > ..aye. Again, people look for spine and integrity, once they wisen > up. Anything visibly built upon spine, integrity and wisdom will come > out as good, and we _have_ walked out of Debian on this suspect > backdoor known as systemd. > > ..short term "Bumpy Rides" are expected common parts of this, and > yes, way way back in its heydays a decade ago, Debian was known to > be the "slow but safe" distro. > > > Listen, if you want to sign that stuff, go ahead. Don't come crying > > to me if your boss fires you for cause for violating their social > > networking policy, and you can't get unemployment because you were > > fired for cause. > > ..join a employee union first, then go slow, document EVERYTHING, so > you can have your union law sharks go after any Kafka style gamers > coming for you. > Steve is not wrong
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
Fully shareable. Never before has freedom been under attack by the ideology of politically correct, by revisionism, by cancel culture. I am not an IT pro, but I fully believe in free software and I understand the danger that also surrounds this freedom and its supporters. Terrible. Let's not flatten out for fear, let's not give up. History will judge these infamous. Federico Bentsik Il giorno sab 27 mar 2021 alle ore 11:54 Harald Arnesen via Dng < dng@lists.dyne.org> ha scritto: > Steve Litt [26.03.2021 20:46]: > > > Before you sign anything or do anything, ask yourself if this is of top > > importance to you. Are you willing to risk your career, your position > > in your community, perhaps the positions of your family, to defend > > Richard Stallman? Unless the answer is an unmitigated "yes", I'd advise > > you to stay as far from this issue as you can. > > “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do > nothing.” ― Edmund Burke > -- > Hilsen Harald > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
On Sat, 27 Mar 2021 08:30:14 -0400, Steve wrote in message <20210327083014.2b434...@mydesk.domain.cxm>: > Alexis PM via Dng said on Sat, 27 Mar 2021 09:23:21 + (UTC) > > > > Hi All, > >> > >> Debian is engaging in a disgusting attack against RMS: > >> https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/vote_002 > >> > >> Does Devuan have resolutions to sign open letters? > >> I'd propose to sign this one instead: > >> https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ > >> > >> See also: > >> An orthodox analysis entitled Justice for Dr. Richard Matthew > >> Stallman, which recaps the whole story. > >> https://jorgemorais.gitlab.io/justice-for-rms/ > >> > >> A post, written by Hannah Wolfman-Jones, with a response from > >> civil-rights expert Nadine Strossen, former president of the ACLU. > >> https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web > >> > > > >I propose to extend the Devuan (and personal) signature of the quoted > >letter ( https://rms-support-letter.github.io/index.html ) also to > >the other existing letter of support (more detailed but little known) > >https://gitlab.com/KenjiBrown/rms-open-letter/-/blob/master/index.md > >(replicated at > >https://github.com/KenjiBrown/rms-open-letter.github.io/blob/main/index.md > > You know, I might not be the best person to advocate for Devuan, > because pretty much everyone knows my Daily Driver Desktop (DDD) is > Void Linux. But I run Devuan on VMs, and if Void ever stops being > viable, Devuan is my Plan B. > > I think pretty much everyone also knows of my anti-systemd advocacy in > the critical 2014-2015 period, and I'm quite sure that advocacy cost > my business revenue in the five figures category. ..me, I was playing catch-up after Groklaw.net, also been subject to Kafka style games, next week I may be able to run for parliament here as, er, a slightly more human vrms... with a possibly firmer climate repair policy. ;o) ..climate is as simple as a chicken race, either we make farmland soil out of the methane clathrate tundra gas, or, it will make farmland soil out of us, just like it did with the dinosaurs, conodonts, synapsids, placoderms and trilobites, in those wonderful natural climate cycles so beloved by the gun toting far right. ;o) ..oh and the gun toters will love how climate compares to a shotgun cartridge: Bang on that primer like we humans dug-n-burned coal 'n oil, then watch the primer shake up 'n ignite the powder like we heat 'n shake up the tundra with CO2, and the next thing you know is watching the tundra shooting slugs straight up like a shot gun on TV or youtube, yeehaw. ..pump the excess heat out of the oceans and sell it as electricity, is just another one of my ways to fix it. > But this isn't about me. This is about some very brave VUAs who built > Devuan when everyone said it couldn't be done. Devuan is a very > valuable resource to many, many people. Without Devuan, the cause of > init-choice would be set back immensely. ..there's slackware.com. No apt, no deb, but we have alien, and we have people on both sides, who can help set up a formal bug tracking facility for slackware, that can also be set up to facilitate using Slackware as a viable upstream alternative to Debian for Devuan. > And now you're suggesting Devuan put that all at risk to take a stand > on RMS. Well you know what? No distro should get involved with > politics, and this RMS thing *is* politics. ..aye. People look for spine and integrity, once they wisen up. > It cost Mint plenty of users when they said supporters of Israel > shouldn't use Mint, and it just might destroy Devuan if they take a > stand, on either side, on this RMS thing. ..aye. Again, people look for spine and integrity, once they wisen up. Anything visibly built upon spine, integrity and wisdom will come out as good, and we _have_ walked out of Debian on this suspect backdoor known as systemd. ..short term "Bumpy Rides" are expected common parts of this, and yes, way way back in its heydays a decade ago, Debian was known to be the "slow but safe" distro. > Listen, if you want to sign that stuff, go ahead. Don't come crying to > me if your boss fires you for cause for violating their social > networking policy, and you can't get unemployment because you were > fired for cause. ..join a employee union first, then go slow, document EVERYTHING, so you can have your union law sharks go after any Kafka style gamers coming for you. Steve is not wrong here, exactly because we live in an imperfect world. RMS is not the only one, we have Snowden, Manning, Winner, Navalny and way too many more out there. > But don't get the Devuan distro involved. Devuan is the work of many, > many people, for many, many years, around the once very unpopular > stance of init-choice. Don't put that at risk. ..IMNTHO, I believe Devuan as a distro should support and endorse RMS coming back to the FSF etc boards, for precisely that reason, lowering the long term risk to Devuan's reputation, by standing firm on
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
On 27/3/21 15:06, d...@d404.nl wrote: But I would like to keep politics*any politics except init freedom* as far as possible from Devuan All life is politics so I will not in any way connect my signing to the Devuan project. And I suggest others to do the same. I replaced gitea.devuan.dev/aitor_czr by the less associated gnuinos.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
On 26-03-2021 20:46, Steve Litt wrote: > Alessandro Vesely via Dng said on Fri, 26 Mar 2021 13:07:08 +0100 > >> Hi All, >> >> Debian is engaging in a disgusting attack against RMS: >> https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/vote_002 >> >> Does Devuan have resolutions to sign open letters? >> I'd propose to sign this one instead: >> https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ > I'd suggest nobody sign anything, and nobody respond to this email. > > If you believe that Stallman was removed, shunned and criticized > because of guilt by association, then it's not much of a stretch to > believe that you will suffer the same fate if you defend him. And then > any who defends *you* will suffer the same fate, ad infinitum. > > Before you sign anything or do anything, ask yourself if this is of top > importance to you. Are you willing to risk your career, your position > in your community, perhaps the positions of your family, to defend > Richard Stallman? Unless the answer is an unmitigated "yes", I'd advise > you to stay as far from this issue as you can. > > My response in no way implies my (very private) position on Stallman. > I'm just pointing out that unless you're willing to pay the freight, > and the payment may be a costly and may be immediate or delayed for > years, getting involved "for the principle of the thing" may cause you > later regret. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful > Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques Well, i do not live in the USA and chances of being fired or risking my career for defending Stallman are not existent. So privately I most likely will sign this open letter. But I would like to keep politics *any politics except init freedom* as far as possible from Devuan so I will not in any way connect my signing to the Devuan project. And I suggest others to do the same. Grtz. Nick signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
John Morris said on Fri, 26 Mar 2021 22:55:57 -0500 >On Fri, 2021-03-26 at 15:46 -0400, Steve Litt wrote: >> >> I'd suggest nobody sign anything, and nobody respond to this email. >> >> If you believe that Stallman was removed, shunned and criticized >> because of guilt by association, then it's not much of a stretch to >> believe that you will suffer the same fate if you defend him. And >> then any who defends *you* will suffer the same fate, ad infinitum. >> > >This exactly how a "climate of fear" works. You don't know me. You haven't even done research on me, or you'd not accuse me of "fearfulness". [snip] >If we can't find the will to defend RICHARD >F*CKING STALLMAN, we won't defend anyone. One by one we will all be >singled out for destruction. This attitude above sounds like the >mewling sounds Republicans Republican? Like I said, you've obviously done no research on me. But beyond that, later in your post you also imply that I'm an SJW. I've been accused of both of these, but not in the same email. > have made for decades, ever retreating >because it is never "the hill to die on" as the revolution marches over >their former "inviolate" position and National Review reverses course >and assigns someone to pen "The Conservative case for X." Yeah, let's talk about it never being the hill to die on. On the gallows in 1776, Nathan Hale said "I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country", just before they sprung the trap door. Contrast this with the "revolutionaries" of January 6, 2021, who after arrest are saying things like "not my fault, the president suggested it" and "prison is hurting my mental health" and "I want to be tried in Texas for the crime I committed in DC." If the preceding paragraph seems offtopic, well, this whole thread is offtopic. What price are you willing to pay in your defense of Stallman? You willing to be fired, for cause and without unemployment, for violation of your employer's social media rules? And then blacklisted from the Tech industry? Not certain, but possible. You willing to pay the freight? Or will you wuss out like the January 6 brigade? Perhaps you're self-employed. You willing to be boycotted? How much income are you willing to lose? If that possibility occurs, will you say ""I only regret that I have but one business to lose for RMS?" Or will you say "W, w, w, the SJWs took my business? > >This isn't actually about RMS, it is just the usual SJWs marching ever >onward, seizing resources and key nodes in the social order. The preceding is pretty funny, considering that you're being an SJW for taking up RMS's cause (not that I necessarily disagree with his cause, and I have nothing against what you call SJWs). > The FSF >is the prize they seek, both to loot it and because it is a choke >point to take and hold. Now you've lost it. The SJWs want to take over the FSF. Sure. > Same reason they seized Debian. Yeah, the SJWs took over Debian. Sure. > Ever >wondered why Debian went from a model of enlightenment and civility to >what it is now? It wasn't systemd, that was a symptom. It was >infiltrated and seized by intolerant people who cared nothing for >Debian or its culture, it was just another resource to seize as they >moved through the software world, killing it and wearing its skin, >then demanding respect due the original entity. The preceding paragraph is the only part of your screed I agree with, although I'd add that the Debian constitution or whatever it's called and their ridiculous way of voting made such a downfall almost certain in the long run. A message to Alexis PM, Harald Arnesen, and any others who think my advice was out of fearfulness: You don't know me. You haven't researched me. To support causes I really believe in, I've put myself in situations where death was a real possibility. I didn't eat on those days, so I wouldn't have a full stomach if I were stabbed or shot in the stomach. I estimate I lost five figures of revenue, over the years, for my anti-systemd stance, which many potential customers considered an unstable rant. I've probably lost potential customers over more recent stands I've taken (not difficult to research). I took the punch. So go ahead toughguys, if RMS is your #1 priority and he hill on which you're willing to die, sign the letter. But if things go south for you, I don't want to hear you whining and crying. Instead, if you have the guts your bravado suggests, you'll follow the lead of Nathan Hale, Lech Walesa, Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, and Joan of Arc, and proudly take whatever comes your way. And for gosh sakes, don't get the Devuan project involved in your crusade. >RICHARD M. STALLMAN IS A GOOD MAN WHO HAS DONE MORE FOR CIVILIZATION >THAN ALL OF HIS DETRACTORS COMBINED. FLAWS INCLUDED. I N E V E R S A I D A N Y T H I N G T O T H E C O N T R A R Y . SteveT ___ Dng mailing list
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
Alexis PM via Dng said on Sat, 27 Mar 2021 09:23:21 + (UTC) > > Hi All, >> >> Debian is engaging in a disgusting attack against RMS: >> https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/vote_002 >> >> Does Devuan have resolutions to sign open letters? >> I'd propose to sign this one instead: >> https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ >> >> See also: >> An orthodox analysis entitled Justice for Dr. Richard Matthew >> Stallman, which recaps the whole story. >> https://jorgemorais.gitlab.io/justice-for-rms/ >> >> A post, written by Hannah Wolfman-Jones, with a response from >> civil-rights expert Nadine Strossen, former president of the ACLU. >> https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web >> > >I propose to extend the Devuan (and personal) signature of the quoted >letter ( https://rms-support-letter.github.io/index.html ) also to the >other existing letter of support (more detailed but little known) >https://gitlab.com/KenjiBrown/rms-open-letter/-/blob/master/index.md >(replicated at >https://github.com/KenjiBrown/rms-open-letter.github.io/blob/main/index.md You know, I might not be the best person to advocate for Devuan, because pretty much everyone knows my Daily Driver Desktop (DDD) is Void Linux. But I run Devuan on VMs, and if Void ever stops being viable, Devuan is my Plan B. I think pretty much everyone also knows of my anti-systemd advocacy in the critical 2014-2015 period, and I'm quite sure that advocacy cost my business revenue in the five figures category. But this isn't about me. This is about some very brave VUAs who built Devuan when everyone said it couldn't be done. Devuan is a very valuable resource to many, many people. Without Devuan, the cause of init-choice would be set back immensely. And now you're suggesting Devuan put that all at risk to take a stand on RMS. Well you know what? No distro should get involved with politics, and this RMS thing *is* politics. It cost Mint plenty of users when they said supporters of Israel shouldn't use Mint, and it just might destroy Devuan if they take a stand, on either side, on this RMS thing. Listen, if you want to sign that stuff, go ahead. Don't come crying to me if your boss fires you for cause for violating their social networking policy, and you can't get unemployment because you were fired for cause. But don't get the Devuan distro involved. Devuan is the work of many, many people, for many, many years, around the once very unpopular stance of init-choice. Don't put that at risk. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
Steve Litt [26.03.2021 20:46]: > Before you sign anything or do anything, ask yourself if this is of top > importance to you. Are you willing to risk your career, your position > in your community, perhaps the positions of your family, to defend > Richard Stallman? Unless the answer is an unmitigated "yes", I'd advise > you to stay as far from this issue as you can. “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” ― Edmund Burke -- Hilsen Harald ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
Hi, On 26/3/21 22:58, Riccardo Mottola via Dng wrote: A post, written by Hannah Wolfman-Jones, with a response from civil-rights expert Nadine Strossen, former president of the ACLU. https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web I can only stand with this letter. Me too. Btw, quoting the paragraph: "Now, let's assume for the sake of argument, Stallman had an attitude that was objectively described as discriminatory on the basis on race and gender [ ... ] The only approach that could possibly work is an educational one!", let's remember one of the cornerstones of Stallman's thoughts: "We are humans, we make mistakes" Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
>>Hi All, >> >>Debian is engaging in a disgusting attack against RMS: >>https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/vote_002 >> >>Does Devuan have resolutions to sign open letters? >>I'd propose to sign this one instead: >>https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ > > I'd suggest nobody sign anything, and nobody respond to this email. > > If you believe that Stallman was removed, shunned and criticized > because of guilt by association, then it's not much of a stretch to > believe that you will suffer the same fate if you defend him. And then > any who defends *you* will suffer the same fate, ad infinitum. > > Before you sign anything or do anything, ask yourself if this is of top > importance to you. Are you willing to risk your career, your position > in your community, perhaps the positions of your family, to defend > Richard Stallman? Unless the answer is an unmitigated "yes", I'd advise > you to stay as far from this issue as you can. > > My response in no way implies my (very private) position on Stallman. > I'm just pointing out that unless you're willing to pay the freight, > and the payment may be a costly and may be immediate or delayed for > years, getting involved "for the principle of the thing" may cause you > later regret. Fear is the ally of injustice. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
> Hi All, > > Debian is engaging in a disgusting attack against RMS: > https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/vote_002 > > Does Devuan have resolutions to sign open letters? > I'd propose to sign this one instead: > https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ > > See also: > An orthodox analysis entitled Justice for Dr. Richard Matthew Stallman, which > recaps the whole story. > https://jorgemorais.gitlab.io/justice-for-rms/ > > A post, written by Hannah Wolfman-Jones, with a response from civil-rights > expert Nadine Strossen, former president of the ACLU. > https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web > I propose to extend the Devuan (and personal) signature of the quoted letter ( https://rms-support-letter.github.io/index.html ) also to the other existing letter of support (more detailed but little known) https://gitlab.com/KenjiBrown/rms-open-letter/-/blob/master/index.md (replicated at https://github.com/KenjiBrown/rms-open-letter.github.io/blob/main/index.md ) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
On Fri, 2021-03-26 at 15:46 -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > I'd suggest nobody sign anything, and nobody respond to this email. > > If you believe that Stallman was removed, shunned and criticized > because of guilt by association, then it's not much of a stretch to > believe that you will suffer the same fate if you defend him. And then > any who defends *you* will suffer the same fate, ad infinitum. This exactly how a "climate of fear" works. Anyone who has looked three seconds at the Cultural Revolution or any of the other descents into madness of the 20th Century knows exactly what is going on here. Time to sack up people. If we can't find the will to defend RICHARD F*CKING STALLMAN, we won't defend anyone. One by one we will all be singled out for destruction. This attitude above sounds like the mewling sounds Republicans have made for decades, ever retreating because it is never "the hill to die on" as the revolution marches over their former "inviolate" position and National Review reverses course and assigns someone to pen "The Conservative case for X." This isn't actually about RMS, it is just the usual SJWs marching ever onward, seizing resources and key nodes in the social order. The FSF is the prize they seek, both to loot it and because it is a choke point to take and hold. Same reason they seized Debian. Ever wondered why Debian went from a model of enlightenment and civility to what it is now? It wasn't systemd, that was a symptom. It was infiltrated and seized by intolerant people who cared nothing for Debian or its culture, it was just another resource to seize as they moved through the software world, killing it and wearing its skin, then demanding respect due the original entity. They don't even care about RMS, he is just in their way. He won't repurpose the FSF into another culture war battlement, he will insist it remain focused on its original goal of software freedom. So he will be driven out. Apparently they won't even have to expend much effort because everyone is already too terrified to even say his name. RICHARD M. STALLMAN IS A GOOD MAN WHO HAS DONE MORE FOR CIVILIZATION THAN ALL OF HIS DETRACTORS COMBINED. FLAWS INCLUDED. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
dLe 26/03/2021 à 13:07, Alessandro Vesely via Dng a écrit : > Hi All, > > Debian is engaging in a disgusting attack against RMS: > https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/vote_002 Same thing happens on the GCC mailing list. A developper, Nathan Sidwell, asks to ban RMS from the steering commitee. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
Hi, On 3/26/21 1:07 PM, Alessandro Vesely via Dng wrote: Debian is engaging in a disgusting attack against RMS: https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/vote_002 It is disgusting. On the GNUstep Mailing list after a post by Richard himself, some people voiced to fork away from GNU, A post, written by Hannah Wolfman-Jones, with a response from civil-rights expert Nadine Strossen, former president of the ACLU. https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web I can only stand with this letter. Those "activist" violate almost every rule in their attacks. They are hypocrites who hide under the term of freedom and don't accept freedom of speech, if it is not "their speech". But I make a step back and do a further comment: I want politics out of free software. Free Software is (for me) free access to technology, liberation from hegemony of monopolies. Of course it can clash with politics if that tries to "limit" technology (see all these defenses into spying, content publishing, censorship). But it should not tell people hat to hate or what not to say: it should concentrate on code, technology and access to it. Remember how many voices there were back then against "evil Microsoft" and IE6? But how many raise their voices today against Chrome? Two weights, two measures. Riccardo ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
Hi, On 3/26/21 6:49 PM, Didier Kryn wrote: Next step is trying to ban opponents to systemd ? I wouldn't joke about that too much :) Riccardo ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
On 2021-03-26 15:00, Steve Litt wrote: goli...@devuan.org said on Fri, 26 Mar 2021 13:47:59 -0500 Steve Litt and I were threatened with a ban on the debian-user mail list for our anti-systemd opinions in 2014! Actually, he may have gotten hammered. Can't quite remember . . . golinux Yeah, I was banned from posting to debian-user, in October or November of 2014, by that bastion of debianism and proud systemd vote caster Don Armstrong. As far as I know, my ban is still in effect. And just so I'm not accused of libel, the following is the link to Armstrong's assertion that he voted for systemd: https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/09/msg01367.html For interesting reading, read the link in Armstrong's post (warning, big file), read Armstrong's explanation of his vote, and then go to the top of the file to understand just how bogus the process leading up to the vote really was. SteveT This is by far the best analysis of how the first GR vote went down: Combatting revisionist history http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20=120652 golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
Le 26/03/2021 à 19:01, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp a écrit : > You can bet on that. But social networks are just the beginning. Social networks, like cell phone, meets a very old need of humans: the need to keep contact with the tribe. But it facilitates in the same time the very old trends to spread rumors and to harass in pack. I have never adhered to any social network for other reasons and I realized a few years ago there are good reasons to keep out. Le 26/03/2021 à 20:46, Steve Litt a écrit : > I'd suggest nobody sign anything, and nobody respond to this email. > If you believe that Stallman was removed, shunned and criticized > because of guilt by association, then it's not much of a stretch to > believe that you will suffer the same fate if you defend him. And then > any who defends *you* will suffer the same fate, ad infinitum. > Very wise advice Steve. Anyway it is probably useless to discuss with the harassers. Just hope the voters won't be influenced. -- Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
goli...@devuan.org said on Fri, 26 Mar 2021 13:47:59 -0500 >Steve Litt and I were threatened with a ban on the debian-user mail >list for our anti-systemd opinions in 2014! Actually, he may have >gotten hammered. Can't quite remember . . . > >golinux Yeah, I was banned from posting to debian-user, in October or November of 2014, by that bastion of debianism and proud systemd vote caster Don Armstrong. As far as I know, my ban is still in effect. And just so I'm not accused of libel, the following is the link to Armstrong's assertion that he voted for systemd: https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/09/msg01367.html For interesting reading, read the link in Armstrong's post (warning, big file), read Armstrong's explanation of his vote, and then go to the top of the file to understand just how bogus the process leading up to the vote really was. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
Alessandro Vesely via Dng said on Fri, 26 Mar 2021 13:07:08 +0100 >Hi All, > >Debian is engaging in a disgusting attack against RMS: >https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/vote_002 > >Does Devuan have resolutions to sign open letters? >I'd propose to sign this one instead: >https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ I'd suggest nobody sign anything, and nobody respond to this email. If you believe that Stallman was removed, shunned and criticized because of guilt by association, then it's not much of a stretch to believe that you will suffer the same fate if you defend him. And then any who defends *you* will suffer the same fate, ad infinitum. Before you sign anything or do anything, ask yourself if this is of top importance to you. Are you willing to risk your career, your position in your community, perhaps the positions of your family, to defend Richard Stallman? Unless the answer is an unmitigated "yes", I'd advise you to stay as far from this issue as you can. My response in no way implies my (very private) position on Stallman. I'm just pointing out that unless you're willing to pay the freight, and the payment may be a costly and may be immediate or delayed for years, getting involved "for the principle of the thing" may cause you later regret. SteveT Steve Litt Spring 2021 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 19:01:47 +0100 "Dr. Nikolaus Klepp" wrote: > Anno domini 2021 Fri, 26 Mar 18:49:23 +0100 > Didier Kryn scripsit: > > We are supposedly all here in favour of software freedom and > > freedom in general, which includes freedom of opinions. > > > > It seems we have entered a new era of inquisition, with the > > great inquisitor being the social networks. Are we still free to > > express personal opinion without the risk of being banned ? > > > > Next step is trying to ban opponents to systemd ? > > You can bet on that. But social networks are just the beginning. Wait > for the uploadfilters in EU. It's already begun. May I suggest to omit that dirty foretelling? Did you know, that where the eyes go, the body follows? [1] And why (the heck!) gets a deer hit by the car at night? [2] FUD is a bad mentor, so please stop spreading it. Told you so :-) Libre Grüße, Florian [1] e.g. https://wiki.c2.com/?BodyFollowsEyes [2] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/deer_in_the_headlights ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
On 2021-03-26 13:26, Florian Zieboll via Dng wrote: On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 13:07:08 +0100 Alessandro Vesely via Dng wrote: Hi All, Debian is engaging in a disgusting attack against RMS: Yesterday's mistfits -> today's opressors: A warm welcome to autismophobia! I hope we (as humanity) get this resolved, before the tide turns again to hit the schizophrenic - still wondering, how any reasonably sensible person can expect a violent regime change to ever result in a peaceful society (aka "civilization"). Think Rome and thumbs up or thumbs down. Violence escalates when political systems enter their EOL phase (and they all get there). It doesn't help that we keep breeding like cockroaches. Numbers stress the system. We are setting ourselves up for a mass extinction event. Can't happen to soon for me. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
On 2021-03-26 13:01, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: Anno domini 2021 Fri, 26 Mar 18:49:23 +0100 Didier Kryn scripsit: We are supposedly all here in favour of software freedom and freedom in general, which includes freedom of opinions. It seems we have entered a new era of inquisition, with the great inquisitor being the social networks. Are we still free to express personal opinion without the risk of being banned ? Next step is trying to ban opponents to systemd ? You can bet on that. But social networks are just the beginning. Wait for the uploadfilters in EU. It's already begun. Nik Steve Litt and I were threatened with a ban on the debian-user mail list for our anti-systemd opinions in 2014! Actually, he may have gotten hammered. Can't quite remember . . . golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
On Fri, 26 Mar 2021 13:07:08 +0100 Alessandro Vesely via Dng wrote: > Hi All, > > Debian is engaging in a disgusting attack against RMS: Yesterday's mistfits -> today's opressors: A warm welcome to autismophobia! I hope we (as humanity) get this resolved, before the tide turns again to hit the schizophrenic - still wondering, how any reasonably sensible person can expect a violent regime change to ever result in a peaceful society (aka "civilization"). ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
Anno domini 2021 Fri, 26 Mar 18:49:23 +0100 Didier Kryn scripsit: > We are supposedly all here in favour of software freedom and freedom > in general, which includes freedom of opinions. > > It seems we have entered a new era of inquisition, with the great > inquisitor being the social networks. Are we still free to express > personal opinion without the risk of being banned ? > > Next step is trying to ban opponents to systemd ? You can bet on that. But social networks are just the beginning. Wait for the uploadfilters in EU. It's already begun. Nik > > -- Didier > > > > > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
We are supposedly all here in favour of software freedom and freedom in general, which includes freedom of opinions. It seems we have entered a new era of inquisition, with the great inquisitor being the social networks. Are we still free to express personal opinion without the risk of being banned ? Next step is trying to ban opponents to systemd ? -- Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Friday, March 26, 2021 12:26 PM, Antony Stone wrote: > On Friday 26 March 2021 at 13:07:08, Alessandro Vesely via Dng wrote: > > > Hi All, > > Debian is engaging in a disgusting attack against RMS: <<--snip--> Quote from Debian's page "consider the harm that he has done to our community and others" Pot - kettle - black, Debian! publickey - g4sra@protonmail.com - 0x42E94623.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FSF and human rights
On Friday 26 March 2021 at 13:07:08, Alessandro Vesely via Dng wrote: > Hi All, > > Debian is engaging in a disgusting attack against RMS: > https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/vote_002 > > Does Devuan have resolutions to sign open letters? > I'd propose to sign this one instead: > https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ Personally I agree with the latter letter, and feel that the Debian resolution is an over-reaction, to put it mildly. The Debian project can choose not to recognise him or his ways of expressing his opinions if they wish, but I agree that he is still entitled to hold and express those opinions, and each person or organisation those opinions affect can decide for themselves whether to agree with him. > See also: > An orthodox analysis entitled Justice for Dr. Richard Matthew Stallman, > which recaps the whole story. > https://jorgemorais.gitlab.io/justice-for-rms/ > > A post, written by Hannah Wolfman-Jones, with a response from civil-rights > expert Nadine Strossen, former president of the ACLU. > https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web I think that's too thoroughly-researched and competently written for the Debian Project Secretary to give it due consideration :( They don't want a reasoned debate - they want to tell people what to do. Antony. -- There are 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary notation, and those who don't. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] FSF and human rights
Hi All, Debian is engaging in a disgusting attack against RMS: https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/vote_002 Does Devuan have resolutions to sign open letters? I'd propose to sign this one instead: https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ See also: An orthodox analysis entitled Justice for Dr. Richard Matthew Stallman, which recaps the whole story. https://jorgemorais.gitlab.io/justice-for-rms/ A post, written by Hannah Wolfman-Jones, with a response from civil-rights expert Nadine Strossen, former president of the ACLU. https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web Best Ale -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
