Re: [DNG] Linus answers a question about systemd
On Sat, Jul 04, 2015 at 03:58:05PM +, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > I recently noticed that the module for plip remains in the kernel, about > twenty years after it was last useful to anyone. Good riddance to that, I Hey! I used the plip module no more than few months ago last time. -- Franco (nextime) Lanza Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy SIP://c...@casa.nexlab.it web: http://www.nexlab.net NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org you can download my public key at: http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers Key ID = D6132D50 Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7 4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50 --- echo 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq | dc --- signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Linus answers a question about systemd
What Linus means is that at some point the kernel module will have been cleaned up to a point where it no longer offends Linus. At that point the rest of us may assume that it will also not be much of a bother. I recently noticed that the module for plip remains in the kernel, about twenty years after it was last useful to anyone. Good riddance to that, I say. But it doesn't bother anyone, so why argue about it? It's just a minor nuisance. Kdbus will be like that if/when Linus accepts it. Arnt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Linus answers a question about systemd
* On 2015 03 Jul 15:59 -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote: > Personally, I think that the only solution is the replacement of the package > manager with something more akin to a version manager, where you can have > multiple versions of the same binary package chains with differing > dependencies based on what the user's needs are. Since that would include > init systems, things like scripts for a particular daemon would be separate > package, installed automatically by looking at what init is installed. Sounds like you're echoing Guix to an extent. https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/ I played with a little bit last year but not enough to become familiar, let alone proficient with it. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Linus answers a question about systemd
On Thu, Jul 02, 2015 at 06:31:44AM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > This means that if he will be sooner or later convinced that kdbus is > a good piece of technology to have in the kernel, for one reason or > another, he will merge it overnight, irrespective of the real or > perceived madness and stubborness of its maintainers. > > I am afraid that kdbus/systemd people will lately grasp this simple > bit of knowledge about Linus, and go for the compromise to convince > him that kdbus is good and the people around it are not monsters. At > that point they will have succeeded. And they will. Good evening, I ain't no mind reader, but he's already of the idea that, sooner or later, kdbus will be merged to stop people crying "But mm!", it seems to me. IMHO The struggle here is in the stupid idea the GNU/Fedora cabal is propugnating: any time they send the request, according to most of reviewers, the code is unsafe, low-quality (compared to what Linus demands for what is likely to be merged in mainline) and has poor performance bonuses compared to userspace dbus, hardly any advantage at all otherwise. -- Teodoro Santoni Something is wrong. I don't wanna compile 20 KB of Go code to list files. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Linus answers a question about systemd
>I think Linus is right when it comes to systemd as an init, but really >that is not the problem. >The real problem is that systemd is not just an init, it is or is >rapidly becoming, a locked in operating system frame work, looking for a >friendly kernel and a desktop environment. >People setting it up as an init system question and comparison either >are part of the problem or have no (expletive deleted) clue when it >comes to the big picture. >If another broader question about systemd "the blob" rather than "the >init" was asked I wonder what the response would have been? >Clarke Hello, Clarke! Great to see you again. If I might offer a slightly different perspective, I think that systemd is really only part of a much larger and far more longstanding problem that has never really been addressed by Debian and a few others. The reason that systemd causes so many problems on Linux distributions is because the distribution makers give certain packages a special preference over the alternatives. The lock-in that you describe really comes from the fact that when a distributor makes a preferential choice, that becomes the "de-facto standard" for that distribution, not necessarily the software itself. System 5 is just one of about 5 different init possibilities. Sendmail/Postfix or EXIM could be cited as another example as mail ackages seldom work seamlessly for support for all three. The same could be said of KDE and Akondi - by default on Debian and just about everywhere else, it insists on installing MySQL over PostgreSQL or NoSQL. What you are really getting when you use a traditional binary Linux distribution is really only what binary chains that distributor wants to support. Personally, I think that the only solution is the replacement of the package manager with something more akin to a version manager, where you can have multiple versions of the same binary package chains with differing dependencies based on what the user's needs are. Since that would include init systems, things like scripts for a particular daemon would be separate package, installed automatically by looking at what init is installed. Just my 2 cents. T.J. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Linus answers a question about systemd
Not really, don´t forget what Linus said about dbus/kdbus: "We don't merge kernel code just because user space was written by a retarded monkey on crack. Kernel code has higher standards..." http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1506.2/05492.html On 2015-07-02 02:31, KatolaZ wrote: On Wed, Jul 01, 2015 at 09:21:46PM +0300, Aldemir Akpinar wrote: It's the second question: http://linux.slashdot.org/story/15/06/30/0058243/interviews-linus-torvalds-answers-your-question?utm_source=feedly1.0mainlinkanon&utm_medium=feed I wouldn't expect any different answer from Linus. And who wants to read anything like "hey, I would not allow kdbus in the kernel for all the gold in the world" in that answer should well remember that Linus has never shown any particular philosophical interest in Free Software or Open Source, since he is basically "motivated by technology" (as he says himself a few lines down, in another answer to another silly question). This means that if he will be sooner or later convinced that kdbus is a good piece of technology to have in the kernel, for one reason or another, he will merge it overnight, irrespective of the real or perceived madness and stubborness of its maintainers. I am afraid that kdbus/systemd people will lately grasp this simple bit of knowledge about Linus, and go for the compromise to convince him that kdbus is good and the people around it are not monsters. At that point they will have succeeded. And they will. HND KatolaZ -- Stop slacking you lazy bum! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Linus answers a question about systemd
You say that as though persuading Linus of something with little technical merit were easy. Arnt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Linus answers a question about systemd
True, but at the same time one has to as, where is the kdbus daemon independent of systemd that can be used by non-systemd systems to accurately test how well it works? DBus currently has no such abilities to my knowledge. Sent from my Windows Phone From: KatolaZ<mailto:kato...@freaknet.org> Sent: 7/1/2015 10:31 PM To: Aldemir Akpinar<mailto:aldemir.akpi...@gmail.com> Cc: dng@lists.dyne.org<mailto:dng@lists.dyne.org> Subject: Re: [DNG] Linus answers a question about systemd On Wed, Jul 01, 2015 at 09:21:46PM +0300, Aldemir Akpinar wrote: > It's the second question: > > http://linux.slashdot.org/story/15/06/30/0058243/interviews-linus-torvalds-answers-your-question?utm_source=feedly1.0mainlinkanon&utm_medium=feed > I wouldn't expect any different answer from Linus. And who wants to read anything like "hey, I would not allow kdbus in the kernel for all the gold in the world" in that answer should well remember that Linus has never shown any particular philosophical interest in Free Software or Open Source, since he is basically "motivated by technology" (as he says himself a few lines down, in another answer to another silly question). This means that if he will be sooner or later convinced that kdbus is a good piece of technology to have in the kernel, for one reason or another, he will merge it overnight, irrespective of the real or perceived madness and stubborness of its maintainers. I am afraid that kdbus/systemd people will lately grasp this simple bit of knowledge about Linus, and go for the compromise to convince him that kdbus is good and the people around it are not monsters. At that point they will have succeeded. And they will. HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Linus answers a question about systemd
On Wed, Jul 01, 2015 at 09:21:46PM +0300, Aldemir Akpinar wrote: > It's the second question: > > http://linux.slashdot.org/story/15/06/30/0058243/interviews-linus-torvalds-answers-your-question?utm_source=feedly1.0mainlinkanon&utm_medium=feed > I wouldn't expect any different answer from Linus. And who wants to read anything like "hey, I would not allow kdbus in the kernel for all the gold in the world" in that answer should well remember that Linus has never shown any particular philosophical interest in Free Software or Open Source, since he is basically "motivated by technology" (as he says himself a few lines down, in another answer to another silly question). This means that if he will be sooner or later convinced that kdbus is a good piece of technology to have in the kernel, for one reason or another, he will merge it overnight, irrespective of the real or perceived madness and stubborness of its maintainers. I am afraid that kdbus/systemd people will lately grasp this simple bit of knowledge about Linus, and go for the compromise to convince him that kdbus is good and the people around it are not monsters. At that point they will have succeeded. And they will. HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Linus answers a question about systemd
Linus actually makes perfect sense on the question. "Doing things better" doesn't always mean "doing things right" or "doing things correctly". Systemd does things in a better way than traditional ways, but that doesn't necessarily make them the best options, the best choices, or the right ones. Just as systemd does init better, so does OpenRC, Runit, s6, etc. but systemd is the new kid on the block with all the cool toys. But, if you noticed, Linus doesn't fully embrace systemd or it's creators. To him, systemd as init is a means to an end, but read that line, "init". That doesn't mean he likes logind, networkd, and he certainly doesn't care for journald, and udevd is always an apparent child from a parent that needs constant supervision and a belt beating every now and then, and kdbus is about as tolerated as using a chainsaw to perform open heart surgery. Sent from my Windows Phone From: Laurent Bercot<mailto:ska-de...@skarnet.org> Sent: 7/1/2015 1:01 PM To: dng@lists.dyne.org<mailto:dng@lists.dyne.org> Subject: Re: [DNG] Linus answers a question about systemd On 01/07/2015 21:17, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > Linus describes personality issues around how to handle bug reports. > > And I think that is one of the main issues I have with some systemd upstream > developers as well. The "we are right, you are wrong", "we wont fix this its > not our bug", "we created a regression, but its still correct what we do, go > away" kind of attitudes I have seen in bug reports and mailing list posts. Oh, yes, the systemd creators (Poettering and Sievers, essentially) have a very inexperienced and irresponsible attitude when it comes to maintaining software. The person to be blamed here is their manager at Red Hat, who entrusts major software design, and a job, to those people. -- Laurent ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Linus answers a question about systemd
On 07/01/2015 02:21 PM, Aldemir Akpinar wrote: It's the second question: http://linux.slashdot.org/story/15/06/30/0058243/interviews-linus-torvalds-answers-your-question?utm_source=feedly1.0mainlinkanon&utm_medium=feed I think Linus is right when it comes to systemd as an init, but really that is not the problem. The real problem is that systemd is not just an init, it is or is rapidly becoming, a locked in operating system frame work, looking for a friendly kernel and a desktop environment. People setting it up as an init system question and comparison either are part of the problem or have no (expletive deleted) clue when it comes to the big picture. If another broader question about systemd "the blob" rather than "the init" was asked I wonder what the response would have been? Clarke ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Linus answers a question about systemd
On 01/07/2015 21:17, Martin Steigerwald wrote: Linus describes personality issues around how to handle bug reports. And I think that is one of the main issues I have with some systemd upstream developers as well. The "we are right, you are wrong", "we wont fix this its not our bug", "we created a regression, but its still correct what we do, go away" kind of attitudes I have seen in bug reports and mailing list posts. Oh, yes, the systemd creators (Poettering and Sievers, essentially) have a very inexperienced and irresponsible attitude when it comes to maintaining software. The person to be blamed here is their manager at Red Hat, who entrusts major software design, and a job, to those people. -- Laurent ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Linus answers a question about systemd
On Wednesday 01 July 2015 21:21:46 Aldemir Akpinar wrote: > It's the second question: > > http://linux.slashdot.org/story/15/06/30/0058243/interviews-linus-torvalds > -answers-your-question?utm_source=feedly1.0mainlinkanon&utm_medium=feed Linus describes personality issues around how to handle bug reports. And I think that is one of the main issues I have with some systemd upstream developers as well. The "we are right, you are wrong", "we wont fix this its not our bug", "we created a regression, but its still correct what we do, go away" kind of attitudes I have seen in bug reports and mailing list posts. -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Linus answers a question about systemd
On 01/07/2015 20:21, Aldemir Akpinar wrote: http://linux.slashdot.org/story/15/06/30/0058243/interviews-linus-torvalds-answers-your-question?utm_source=feedly1.0mainlinkanon&utm_medium=feed Yes, it can happen to the best of us: even Linus doesn't know there are alternatives to handle services the right way, and that are less insane than systemd. I don't blame him: userspace is not his world, he's not interested in it, and has only heard the loudest parties, i.e. "traditional init" vs. "systemd", with a distant ear. Linus really isn't the guy who must be convinced, here. He is the guy who must be convinced that kdbus is a horrible idea, that's for sure. But as far as systemd is concerned, the people who must be convinced are distribution maintainers and daemon writers. -- Laurent ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Linus answers a question about systemd
It's the second question: http://linux.slashdot.org/story/15/06/30/0058243/interviews-linus-torvalds-answers-your-question?utm_source=feedly1.0mainlinkanon&utm_medium=feed -- aldemir ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
