Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On Sat, 18 Nov 2017, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > > > Unfortunately, there will always be those who respond to trolls. For > > that purpose, Rick Moen has written a rather ingenious procmail recipe > > to /dev/null all identifiable descendents of the troll's posts. I don't > > use it because I'm scared I'll lose some valuable insights by real > > contributors just because the troll is quoted somewhere in the > > backstory, but if you prioritize never hearing from trolls, Rick's > > script is what you want. > > I'm delighted to credit Tobia Conforto for this excellent procmail > recipe. > > 'Procmail Trollkiller' on http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Mail/ wow :^) I'm now considering to add this as a feature in jaro-mail :^D I'm not using procmail anymore since the 2.0 release, but the concept is great and can be easily ported. thanks ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > Unfortunately, there will always be those who respond to trolls. For > that purpose, Rick Moen has written a rather ingenious procmail recipe > to /dev/null all identifiable descendents of the troll's posts. I don't > use it because I'm scared I'll lose some valuable insights by real > contributors just because the troll is quoted somewhere in the > backstory, but if you prioritize never hearing from trolls, Rick's > script is what you want. I'm delighted to credit Tobia Conforto for this excellent procmail recipe. 'Procmail Trollkiller' on http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Mail/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On Fri, 17 Nov 2017 15:49:51 + KatolaZ wrote: > On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 03:39:45PM +, Rowland Penny wrote: > > On Fri, 17 Nov 2017 16:34:31 +0100 > > John Hughes wrote: > > > > > On 17/11/17 16:14, Rowland Penny wrote: > > > > On Fri, 17 Nov 2017 15:54:39 +0100 > > > > John Hughes wrote: > > > > > > > >> systemd, like init(1), doesn't just run on boot -- it's running > > > >> continuously. > > > >> > > > > Excuse me apologist troll, but that is the whole point, it > > > > shouldn't have to. > > > > > > It doesn't? You have many systems without PID 1 running? > > > > > > > No, apologist troll, I don't, but then I don't have a PID 1 running > > that uses many thousands of lines of code either ;-) > > > > It would be much better if we would please try to maintain a bit of > self-control and avoid to use such harsh tones. :-) I would normally agree, but this is an interesting case. I think any informed and reasonable person on this list would agree that John Hughes' main thrust on this mailing list is to defend systemd against criticism. I think a majority here would agree that Hughes is a systemd apologist. UrbanDictionary.Com defines "troll" as: One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument. The obvious way to cause disruption in a community based on a principle is to argue against that principle. Given that Devuan's very birth was "anti-systemd", apologizing for and defending systemd obviously causes maximum disruption, and it's hard to see how that could be done continuously without being intentional. So Hughes is a systemd apologist, and Hughes is a troll. Therefore, Roland simply stated a fact when calling him an "apologist troll." Roland, what I'd suggest to you is what I suggest to everyone interested in a systemd-free Devuan, and what I long ago did myself: Filter John Hughes to /dev/null so you never have to hear his systemd apologies or his trolling again. If everyone did that, when John Hughes has his "systemd isn't that bad" discussions with the 1 or 2 other systemd apologist trolls on the list, none of us will hear it. They can whoop it up with their systemd praises, and it won't bother us a bit, and we'll all be civil. Unfortunately, there will always be those who respond to trolls. For that purpose, Rick Moen has written a rather ingenious procmail recipe to /dev/null all identifiable descendents of the troll's posts. I don't use it because I'm scared I'll lose some valuable insights by real contributors just because the troll is quoted somewhere in the backstory, but if you prioritize never hearing from trolls, Rick's script is what you want. SteveT Steve Litt November 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On Fri, 17 Nov 2017 08:42:51 -0500 "Ismael L. Donis Garcia" wrote: > Excuse me if I say something not suitable, since my knowledge is very > scarce. > > But I understand that the new versions of openrc already bring the > possibility of functioning as an init system independently. > > In that case, openrc could not be used as an alternative init? Yes. However, an alternative init wasn't the subject of this thread: It started as getting libreswan to run even though Debian doesn't provide a sysvinit init script, and then addition of a Process Supervisor to sysvinit was suggested (by me) as a possible solution. Later, somebody renamed this thread to "openrc init", which discusses openrc as an alternative init. SteveT Steve Litt November 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On Fri, 17 Nov 2017 09:14:38 + KatolaZ wrote: > On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:12:51PM +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > > [cut] > > > > > I do think that it is wise to replace SysVinit at some point or at > > least provide an alternative. I even agree with tech-ctte decision > > regarding replacing SysVinit, that is not the point. Systemd > > addressed a need. Yet it went to far, it is too many in one, > > attitude of at least some upstream developers appear to be toxic to > > me and so on… and it was not the only viable option… we all know > > the arguments, no need to repeat, … > > We agree on the necessity of providing (optional) alternatives to > sysvinit. But this cannot mean just "put the packages in the repos and > the users will figure it out" [*]. For Devuan, providing alternatives > (like for instance OpenRC) means *supporting* the alternatives and > making sure that the users can select the one they like with the least > effort on their side. Otherwise the users could simply put together > their own LFS... :) > > My2Cents I wasn't clear in my last post on this. I have no problem with keeping sysvinit as PID1 for a long, long time. I have nothing against keeping the majority of daemons under the care of sysvinit for a long time. My suggestion was simply to provide a *supervisor*, to be spawned by sysvinit probably via inclusion in /etc/inittab, to run daemons that become problematic in sysvinit due to Debian's lack of working sysvinit init scripts. My understanding from another Devuan discussion is that the current Debian runit package **for runit as a supervisor, not as a whole init system** already works, and does not uninstall sysvinit. So if Debian's libreswan package has no init script, I could create a run script, the Devuan libreswan packager could include it, require runit, and bang, libreswan works on Devuan. To a certain extent, for early adopters, I *did* suggest something like "put the packages in the repos and the users will figure it out". A ten step cookbook document will enable the user to do that, until we figure out the more Devuan way to do it. OpenRC isn't part of this discussion: It is not, and cannot function as, a supervisor. If you want simply to run libreswan and hope it stays running, you could simply run it in /etc/rc.local. I'm not suggesting an init system for Devuan, and to me, for the foreseeable future, sysvinit seems adequate, especially if reenforceable with a supervisor. More in other emails... SteveT Steve Litt November 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
Le 17/11/2017 à 23:13, Joel Roth a écrit : On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 10:37:05PM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: But Linus stated explicitely in the past that applications shouldn't access sysfs directly and sysfs wasn't to be considered stable. Rob Landley (author of mdev) has made a lot of requests about sysfs documentation to Kay Sievers and GKH and they systematically refused and claimed they would break it and he should just use udev. Which now means systemd. For reference, the official sysfs guidelines are here: https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/admin-guide/sysfs-rules.html Interesting and useful document. Means they have eventually sorted what can be broken and what can't. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 10:37:05PM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: > But Linus stated explicitely in the past that applications shouldn't > access sysfs directly and sysfs wasn't to be considered stable. Rob Landley > (author of mdev) has made a lot of requests about sysfs documentation to Kay > Sievers and GKH and they systematically refused and claimed they would break > it and he should just use udev. Which now means systemd. For reference, the official sysfs guidelines are here: https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/admin-guide/sysfs-rules.html ~Joel > Didier > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
Le 17/11/2017 à 17:37, Arnt Gulbrandsen a écrit : John Hughes writes: The lkml.org archive contains a broken link. How odd. There's another message from Linus with the same subject: https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/10/26/524 That one's to the point... Linus may/will not react to conspiracy theories about possible future commits, but it there's actual breakage he'll right it as soon as someone says "kernel commit x breaks mdev/mdevd by removing y; libudev copes since commit z so libudev users should upgrade libudev and kernel in lockstep" for concrete values of x, y and z. But Linus stated explicitely in the past that applications shouldn't access sysfs directly and sysfs wasn't to be considered stable. Rob Landley (author of mdev) has made a lot of requests about sysfs documentation to Kay Sievers and GKH and they systematically refused and claimed they would break it and he should just use udev. Which now means systemd. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
John Hughes writes: The lkml.org archive contains a broken link. How odd. There's another message from Linus with the same subject: https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/10/26/524 That one's to the point... Linus may/will not react to conspiracy theories about possible future commits, but it there's actual breakage he'll right it as soon as someone says "kernel commit x breaks mdev/mdevd by removing y; libudev copes since commit z so libudev users should upgrade libudev and kernel in lockstep" for concrete values of x, y and z. BTW, it took Linus three weeks to switch to all-caps this time. That's a record, isn't it? He must be growing mellow in his old age. Arnt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On 17/11/17 17:04, John Hughes wrote: On 17/11/17 16:38, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: Didier Kryn writes: That's why a bunch of people have endeavoured replacing systemd-udev by mdev or mdevd, something much simpler to configure and not locked-in. The only issue now is that sysfs is unstable on purpose to force libudev on people (sysfs is developped by the same persons which develop udev). Linus accepts that? Isn't that precisely what he exploded about a few weeks ago? https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/10/26/511 Broken link? The lkml.org archive contains a broken link. How odd. There's another message from Linus with the same subject: https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/10/26/524 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On 2017-11-17 10:04, John Hughes wrote: On 17/11/17 16:38, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: Didier Kryn writes: That's why a bunch of people have endeavoured replacing systemd-udev by mdev or mdevd, something much simpler to configure and not locked-in. The only issue now is that sysfs is unstable on purpose to force libudev on people (sysfs is developped by the same persons which develop udev). Linus accepts that? Isn't that precisely what he exploded about a few weeks ago? https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/10/26/511 Broken link? ___ Worked here. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On Fri, 17 Nov 2017 15:49:51 + KatolaZ wrote: > On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 03:39:45PM +, Rowland Penny wrote: > > On Fri, 17 Nov 2017 16:34:31 +0100 > > John Hughes wrote: > > > > > On 17/11/17 16:14, Rowland Penny wrote: > > > > On Fri, 17 Nov 2017 15:54:39 +0100 > > > > John Hughes wrote: > > > > > > > >> systemd, like init(1), doesn't just run on boot -- it's running > > > >> continuously. > > > >> > > > > Excuse me apologist troll, but that is the whole point, it > > > > shouldn't have to. > > > > > > It doesn't? You have many systems without PID 1 running? > > > > > > > No, apologist troll, I don't, but then I don't have a PID 1 running > > that uses many thousands of lines of code either ;-) > > > > It would be much better if we would please try to maintain a bit of > self-control and avoid to use such harsh tones. > > Thanks > > KatolaZ > Harsh tones ? I could call him far worse than that and he replied to my first post, so he must have accepted what he is. Rowland ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On 17/11/17 16:38, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: Didier Kryn writes: That's why a bunch of people have endeavoured replacing systemd-udev by mdev or mdevd, something much simpler to configure and not locked-in. The only issue now is that sysfs is unstable on purpose to force libudev on people (sysfs is developped by the same persons which develop udev). Linus accepts that? Isn't that precisely what he exploded about a few weeks ago? https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/10/26/511 Broken link? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
- Original Message - From: "KatolaZ" To: Sent: Friday, November 17, 2017 4:14 AM Subject: Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package We agree on the necessity of providing (optional) alternatives to sysvinit. But this cannot mean just "put the packages in the repos and the users will figure it out" [*]. For Devuan, providing alternatives (like for instance OpenRC) means *supporting* the alternatives and making sure that the users can select the one they like with the least effort on their side. Otherwise the users could simply put together their own LFS... :) My2Cents When I mention that they analyze the possibility of including openrc as an init system by default, I do not do it thinking about Ascii, but rather about Beowulf. At least read the following on the gentoo page[1]: Beginning with OpenRC 0.25, a new program is provided on Linux, openrc-init, which can replace /sbin/init on startup. openrc-init will ignore the /etc/inittab file and boot OpenRC directly. Best Regards -- Ismael Devuan User : http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=devuan [1] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/OpenRC ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 03:39:45PM +, Rowland Penny wrote: > On Fri, 17 Nov 2017 16:34:31 +0100 > John Hughes wrote: > > > On 17/11/17 16:14, Rowland Penny wrote: > > > On Fri, 17 Nov 2017 15:54:39 +0100 > > > John Hughes wrote: > > > > > >> systemd, like init(1), doesn't just run on boot -- it's running > > >> continuously. > > >> > > > Excuse me apologist troll, but that is the whole point, it shouldn't > > > have to. > > > > It doesn't? You have many systems without PID 1 running? > > > > No, apologist troll, I don't, but then I don't have a PID 1 running > that uses many thousands of lines of code either ;-) > It would be much better if we would please try to maintain a bit of self-control and avoid to use such harsh tones. Thanks KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On Fri, 17 Nov 2017 16:34:31 +0100 John Hughes wrote: > On 17/11/17 16:14, Rowland Penny wrote: > > On Fri, 17 Nov 2017 15:54:39 +0100 > > John Hughes wrote: > > > >> systemd, like init(1), doesn't just run on boot -- it's running > >> continuously. > >> > > Excuse me apologist troll, but that is the whole point, it shouldn't > > have to. > > It doesn't? You have many systems without PID 1 running? > No, apologist troll, I don't, but then I don't have a PID 1 running that uses many thousands of lines of code either ;-) Rowland ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
Didier Kryn writes: That's why a bunch of people have endeavoured replacing systemd-udev by mdev or mdevd, something much simpler to configure and not locked-in. The only issue now is that sysfs is unstable on purpose to force libudev on people (sysfs is developped by the same persons which develop udev). Linus accepts that? Isn't that precisely what he exploded about a few weeks ago? https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/10/26/511 Arnt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On 17/11/17 16:14, Rowland Penny wrote: On Fri, 17 Nov 2017 15:54:39 +0100 John Hughes wrote: systemd, like init(1), doesn't just run on boot -- it's running continuously. Excuse me apologist troll, but that is the whole point, it shouldn't have to. It doesn't? You have many systems without PID 1 running? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 03:14:26PM +, Rowland Penny wrote: > > Also don't forget that you're counting udev into the size of systemd. > > That was their decision (and another bad one at that) And it has far-reaching results: in a modular design, it's easy to replace individual components. -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ Imagine there are bandits in your house, your kid is bleeding out, ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ the house is on fire, and seven big-ass trumpets are playing in the ⠈⠳⣄ sky. Your cat demands food. The priority should be obvious... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
Le 17/11/2017 à 15:54, John Hughes a écrit : On 17/11/17 15:48, Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote: Thus, systemd represents a code base of about 455,000 to 833,000 lines spread over 2201 files. The main problem that systemd tries to solve is correct ordering of startup script execution, a job that is done only at boot time. systemd, like init(1), doesn't just run on boot -- it's running continuously. Also don't forget that you're counting udev into the size of systemd. That's why a bunch of people have endeavoured replacing systemd-udev by mdev or mdevd, something much simpler to configure and not locked-in. The only issue now is that sysfs is unstable on purpose to force libudev on people (sysfs is developped by the same persons which develop udev). Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On Fri, 17 Nov 2017 15:54:39 +0100 John Hughes wrote: > On 17/11/17 15:48, Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote: > > Thus, systemd represents a code base of about 455,000 to 833,000 > > lines spread over 2201 files. > > > > The main problem that systemd tries to solve is correct ordering of > > startup script execution, a job that is done only at boot time. > > systemd, like init(1), doesn't just run on boot -- it's running > continuously. > Excuse me apologist troll, but that is the whole point, it shouldn't have to. > Also don't forget that you're counting udev into the size of systemd. That was their decision (and another bad one at that) Rowland ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On 17/11/17 15:48, Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote: Thus, systemd represents a code base of about 455,000 to 833,000 lines spread over 2201 files. The main problem that systemd tries to solve is correct ordering of startup script execution, a job that is done only at boot time. systemd, like init(1), doesn't just run on boot -- it's running continuously. Also don't forget that you're counting udev into the size of systemd. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
"Ismael L. Donis Garcia" asks on Fri, 17 Nov 2017 08:42:51 -0500: >> But I understand that the new versions of openrc already bring the >> possibility of functioning as an init system independently. >> >> In that case, openrc could not be used as an alternative init? The TrueOS team, which provides bleeding-edge FreeBSD 12 on a ZFS filesystem, with the Lumina desktop, has gone through a conversion of startup scripts to openrc, so if openrc were to be considered for Devuan use, there is already considerable experience, and I suspect that the TrueOS folks would be willing to offer a retrospective on how difficult the job was, why they decided to do it, and if they now regret having spent the effort. However, I would like to comment that I agree with the Devuan ideal of avoiding systemd. I just pulled down the systemd_234.orig.tar.gz source archive on a Debian 9.0 (unstable) system, unpacked it, and counted C code lines like this: % find . -name '*.[ch]' | xargs cat | wc -l 433922 There is also a single 81-line C++ source file in the tree, 20 *.py files with 20,128 lines of code, and 40 *.sh files with 2287 lines of code. If I ignore programming languages, and just ask how big the text corpus is, % find . -type f | xargs cat |wc -l 833135 Thus, systemd represents a code base of about 455,000 to 833,000 lines spread over 2201 files. The main problem that systemd tries to solve is correct ordering of startup script execution, a job that is done only at boot time. On the workstation where I'm writing this message, the system has been up for 491 days, so systemd hasn't been used much recently. I checked several *BSD, GNU/Linux, and Solaris systems, and found that the /etc/init.d or /etc/rc.d trees contain from 50 to 150 scripts, with a total of 3000 to 6500 lines of code. Conclusion: systemd is a pile-driving hammer attempting to smash a mite. This makes no sense: the original Unix philosophy was always to keep things simple, and never to complexify them. Sadly, systemd, and Apple's conversion of /etc/passwd into a binary database whose corruption prevents all logins, are examples of the failure of developers to understand the importance of simplicity. Features do not matter, if the system is so complex that its users cannot understand it, and its managers cannot fix it when it breaks. P.S. There is probably a good xkcd cartoon about complexification that someone might know; if so, please post a link to it on this list for our amusement. --- - Nelson H. F. BeebeTel: +1 801 581 5254 - - University of UtahFAX: +1 801 581 4148 - - Department of Mathematics, 110 LCBInternet e-mail: be...@math.utah.edu - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 be...@acm.org be...@computer.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USAURL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ - --- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
- Original Message - From: "Martin Steigerwald" To: Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 4:12 PM Subject: Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package Hello Steve. Thank you! I totally get the frustration behind emotions like the ones showed. The whole Systemd debate frustrated me to no end. It is human. So all forgiven and forgotten. Steve Litt - 16.11.17, 12:31: > > #3 is, in my opinion, practical. Any fool can write a run script > > with environment variables: Even I can do it. In most cases, a > > daemon doesn't care whether it's started by the main init system, or > > indirectly by a supervisor started by the main init system. Like #2, > > this helps give Devuan a unique brand. Also, this future-proofs us: > > When Debian drags their feet in putting forth a sysvinit init > > script, a Devuan volunteer can step forward with a supervisor run > > script. Over a period of time, more and more daemons in Devuan > > could be run from a single supervisor process. > > > > So then the question becomes, what supervisor? Runit? S6? > > Daemontools-encore? Perp? > > FWIW the last /etc/init.d/skeleton script in Debian already has all > the common functions in some kind of shell script library and a new > init script without any extra handling would not be more than setting > the 3-4 environment variables there. Additionally one could overwrite > just one function like "do_start" with own code. The preceding paragraph is a nice alternative. Devuan should take advantage of it, but I don't think it should be the sole alternative. I think that supporting one or two supervisors, which wouldn't be particularly hard, would provide an excellent Plan-B, and would fortify us in case something went REALLY wrong with Debian's support of sysvinit. I totally agree with you. Ask anybody who has run a supervisor: Doing so is a breath of fresh air. It's easy. It's easy to incorporate other peoples' daemons. It's trivially easy to incorporate your own daemon, because if you use a supervisor daemons are just ordinary foreground programs that you write a separate 6 line run script for. I do think that it is wise to replace SysVinit at some point or at least provide an alternative. I even agree with tech-ctte decision regarding replacing SysVinit, that is not the point. Systemd addressed a need. Yet it went to far, it is too many in one, attitude of at least some upstream developers appear to be toxic to me and so on… and it was not the only viable option… we all know the arguments, no need to repeat, … so a good daemon / service supervisor as one modular building block perfectly fine with me. I would not know which one, so far I did not dig deeper into them. But as long as there are maintainers it does not have to be just one. Thank you, -- Martin Excuse me if I say something not suitable, since my knowledge is very scarce. But I understand that the new versions of openrc already bring the possibility of functioning as an init system independently. In that case, openrc could not be used as an alternative init? Best Regards -- Ismael Devuan User : http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=devuan ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:12:51PM +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote: [cut] > > I do think that it is wise to replace SysVinit at some point or at least > provide an alternative. I even agree with tech-ctte decision regarding > replacing SysVinit, that is not the point. Systemd addressed a need. Yet it > went to far, it is too many in one, attitude of at least some upstream > developers appear to be toxic to me and so on… and it was not the only viable > option… we all know the arguments, no need to repeat, … > We agree on the necessity of providing (optional) alternatives to sysvinit. But this cannot mean just "put the packages in the repos and the users will figure it out" [*]. For Devuan, providing alternatives (like for instance OpenRC) means *supporting* the alternatives and making sure that the users can select the one they like with the least effort on their side. Otherwise the users could simply put together their own LFS... :) My2Cents [*] Any reference is purely coincidental -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
Hello Steve. Thank you! I totally get the frustration behind emotions like the ones showed. The whole Systemd debate frustrated me to no end. It is human. So all forgiven and forgotten. Steve Litt - 16.11.17, 12:31: > > > #3 is, in my opinion, practical. Any fool can write a run script > > > with environment variables: Even I can do it. In most cases, a > > > daemon doesn't care whether it's started by the main init system, or > > > indirectly by a supervisor started by the main init system. Like #2, > > > this helps give Devuan a unique brand. Also, this future-proofs us: > > > When Debian drags their feet in putting forth a sysvinit init > > > script, a Devuan volunteer can step forward with a supervisor run > > > script. Over a period of time, more and more daemons in Devuan > > > could be run from a single supervisor process. > > > > > > So then the question becomes, what supervisor? Runit? S6? > > > Daemontools-encore? Perp? > > > > FWIW the last /etc/init.d/skeleton script in Debian already has all > > the common functions in some kind of shell script library and a new > > init script without any extra handling would not be more than setting > > the 3-4 environment variables there. Additionally one could overwrite > > just one function like "do_start" with own code. > > The preceding paragraph is a nice alternative. Devuan should take > advantage of it, but I don't think it should be the sole alternative. I > think that supporting one or two supervisors, which wouldn't be > particularly hard, would provide an excellent Plan-B, and would fortify > us in case something went REALLY wrong with Debian's support of > sysvinit. I totally agree with you. > Ask anybody who has run a supervisor: Doing so is a breath of fresh > air. It's easy. It's easy to incorporate other peoples' daemons. It's > trivially easy to incorporate your own daemon, because if you use a > supervisor daemons are just ordinary foreground programs that you write > a separate 6 line run script for. I do think that it is wise to replace SysVinit at some point or at least provide an alternative. I even agree with tech-ctte decision regarding replacing SysVinit, that is not the point. Systemd addressed a need. Yet it went to far, it is too many in one, attitude of at least some upstream developers appear to be toxic to me and so on… and it was not the only viable option… we all know the arguments, no need to repeat, … so a good daemon / service supervisor as one modular building block perfectly fine with me. I would not know which one, so far I did not dig deeper into them. But as long as there are maintainers it does not have to be just one. Thank you, -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On Wed, 15 Nov 2017 16:30:36 +0200 Sam Protsenko wrote: > Hi, > > Can you please provide libreswan package with sysvinit integration in > Devuan? > > Recently "libreswan" package was added to Debian: [1]. But it only > contains systemd init script and lacks sysvinit script. Hi Sam, If you can answer these questions, I can make a runit run script, and perhaps an s6 one: * What program must be run in the background * What would the complete command line for this program look like? * What background processes would need to be running before libreswan could function properly? Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt November 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On Thu, 16 Nov 2017 10:48:52 +0100 Martin Steigerwald wrote: > Hello Steve. > > Steve Litt - 15.11.17, 19:59: > > I personally don't like #1. The Debian maintainers are > > obstructionists, so I wouldn't help them: I wouldn't give them the > > sweat off my W*(#RF(#*. > > I am I an obstructionist just cause I happen to maintain fio Debian > package? > > I could feel personally offended now. > [snip] > > Can you for once welcome your pride, feel it, and then… let go of it? > Pretty please. I hereby retract and apologize for my sweeping generalization about Debian maintainers: It obviously isn't true of all of them. I also retract and appologize for the sentence following my generalization. It's unnecessarily inflammatory. Sorry. [snip] > > #3 is, in my opinion, practical. Any fool can write a run script > > with environment variables: Even I can do it. In most cases, a > > daemon doesn't care whether it's started by the main init system, or > > indirectly by a supervisor started by the main init system. Like #2, > > this helps give Devuan a unique brand. Also, this future-proofs us: > > When Debian drags their feet in putting forth a sysvinit init > > script, a Devuan volunteer can step forward with a supervisor run > > script. Over a period of time, more and more daemons in Devuan > > could be run from a single supervisor process. > > > > So then the question becomes, what supervisor? Runit? S6? > > Daemontools-encore? Perp? > > FWIW the last /etc/init.d/skeleton script in Debian already has all > the common functions in some kind of shell script library and a new > init script without any extra handling would not be more than setting > the 3-4 environment variables there. Additionally one could overwrite > just one function like "do_start" with own code. The preceding paragraph is a nice alternative. Devuan should take advantage of it, but I don't think it should be the sole alternative. I think that supporting one or two supervisors, which wouldn't be particularly hard, would provide an excellent Plan-B, and would fortify us in case something went REALLY wrong with Debian's support of sysvinit. Ask anybody who has run a supervisor: Doing so is a breath of fresh air. It's easy. It's easy to incorporate other peoples' daemons. It's trivially easy to incorporate your own daemon, because if you use a supervisor daemons are just ordinary foreground programs that you write a separate 6 line run script for. SteveT Steve Litt November 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On Thu, 16 Nov 2017 09:49:38 +, KatolaZ wrote in message
<20171116094938.gc3...@katolaz.homeunix.net>:
> On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 02:04:51AM +0200, Sam Protsenko wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
> > >
> > > So it would be better if Sam Protsenko offered to help the Debian
> > > maintainer in including and testing the scripts for sysvinit.
> > >
> >
> > I just did. Let's hope Daniel will agree on that. I'd prefer to keep
> > it in Debian ("upstream" package) and not bother Devuan maintainers.
> > Otherwise I probably can offer some help here (if needed).
> >
>
> Thanks sam, that's brilliant. Please keep up posted on how the thing
> evolves, and shout if we can help.
..scratch that, shout out if help is needed, we need to know.
> If yout attempt to have those scripts re-included in the debian
> package fails, we have a plan B anyway :)
...and if that and plans C past Z fails, we'll need to know. ;o)
--
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
Scenarios always come in sets of three:
best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 10:48:52AM +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > Hello Steve. > > Steve Litt - 15.11.17, 19:59: > > I personally don't like #1. The Debian maintainers are > > obstructionists, so I wouldn't help them: I wouldn't give them the > > sweat off my W*(#RF(#*. > > I am I an obstructionist just cause I happen to maintain fio Debian package? > > I could feel personally offended now. Can we stop this please, before it becomes a long, useless, pointless flamewar? Writing emails has never put distros out of the door. Let's see if the DM accepts the patch by Sam. If this does not happen, we revert to Plan B. Thanks KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 02:04:51AM +0200, Sam Protsenko wrote:
[cut]
> >
> > So it would be better if Sam Protsenko offered to help the Debian
> > maintainer in including and testing the scripts for sysvinit.
> >
>
> I just did. Let's hope Daniel will agree on that. I'd prefer to keep
> it in Debian ("upstream" package) and not bother Devuan maintainers.
> Otherwise I probably can offer some help here (if needed).
>
Thanks sam, that's brilliant. Please keep up posted on how the thing
evolves, and shout if we can help.
If yout attempt to have those scripts re-included in the debian
package fails, we have a plan B anyway :)
Thanks
KatolaZ
--
[ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ]
[ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ]
[ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ]
[ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ]
[ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ]
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Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
Hello Steve. Steve Litt - 15.11.17, 19:59: > I personally don't like #1. The Debian maintainers are > obstructionists, so I wouldn't help them: I wouldn't give them the > sweat off my W*(#RF(#*. I am I an obstructionist just cause I happen to maintain fio Debian package? I could feel personally offended now. I get understand why you feel this way, but what you write in my oppinion is destructive. I happened to take part in a discussion about how tech-ctte works in debian-project/devel and I learned that many of the involved people are still suffering from the Systemd discussion back then. Debian maintainers are *human beings* (or souls, expressions of God incarnated into human bodies?), just as you are. Can you for once welcome your pride, feel it, and then… let go of it? Pretty please. I will do so with my anger about how you write here. Maybe I am naive… but I still hope that one day human beings who are willing to face their emotions go about healing what got hurt during the Systemd discussion in Debian. For the good of all of us. > #3 is, in my opinion, practical. Any fool can write a run script with > environment variables: Even I can do it. In most cases, a daemon > doesn't care whether it's started by the main init system, or > indirectly by a supervisor started by the main init system. Like #2, > this helps give Devuan a unique brand. Also, this future-proofs us: > When Debian drags their feet in putting forth a sysvinit init script, a > Devuan volunteer can step forward with a supervisor run script. Over a > period of time, more and more daemons in Devuan could be run from a > single supervisor process. > > So then the question becomes, what supervisor? Runit? S6? > Daemontools-encore? Perp? FWIW the last /etc/init.d/skeleton script in Debian already has all the common functions in some kind of shell script library and a new init script without any extra handling would not be more than setting the 3-4 environment variables there. Additionally one could overwrite just one function like "do_start" with own code. Thanks -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 07:50:33AM +0100, John Hughes wrote: > On 16/11/17 01:59, Steve Litt wrote: > > > >This situation is nothing unexpected. Many of us predicted in 2014 that > >Debian would continue throwing down all the anti-anti-systemd > >obstructionism they could muster. It would not be unreasonable to > >expect that the time will come where most Debian packages will fail to > >provide sysvinit scripts. > > Or, an alternative, non-conflictual interpretation -- people scratch the > itches they have. > > >If/when this time comes, we have several alternatives: > > > >1) Help the Debian maintainers, as several have suggested in this > >thread. > > > >2) Write our own sysvinit scripts, for Devuan only. > > > >3) Write Process Supervisor scripts, and run daemons from a Process > >Supervisor. > > > > > >I personally don't like #1. The Debian maintainers are > >obstructionists, so I wouldn't help them: I wouldn't give them the > >sweat off my W*(#RF(#*. > > You wouldn't be giving any thing to the Debian developers, you'd be giving > to the Debian *users* (and, therefore) to the users of every Debian derived > distribution, including Devuan. > > >#2 is nice, helps give Devuan a unique brand, but IMHO making and > >maintaining a good-for-all-setups sysvinit script is difficult and time > >consuming. As a matter of fact, those horrible scripts necessary to > >cover most cases, is what made people furious at sysvinit in the first > >place: I don't think anyone cared about boot time or parallel > >instantiation. > > But you are outraged that the some Debian developers don't want to do this, > accusing them of bad faith. > John, please. Your response does not add any single bit of intormation, and is not better than Steve's one. Let's try to see if the DM is able to fullfil his promise to keep the scripts in. Peace KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 07:59:26PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: [cut] > > This situation is nothing unexpected. Many of us predicted in 2014 that > Debian would continue throwing down all the anti-anti-systemd > obstructionism they could muster. It would not be unreasonable to > expect that the time will come where most Debian packages will fail to > provide sysvinit scripts. > > If/when this time comes, we have several alternatives: > > 1) Help the Debian maintainers, as several have suggested in this > thread. > > 2) Write our own sysvinit scripts, for Devuan only. > > 3) Write Process Supervisor scripts, and run daemons from a Process > Supervisor. > > > I personally don't like #1. The Debian maintainers are > obstructionists, so I wouldn't help them: I wouldn't give them the > sweat off my W*(#RF(#*. > Steve, let's wait to see how it goes in this case, befor judjing. We have had good discussions with several Debian maintainers, in many occasions. The fact that soem of them are not collabirative does not mean that none of them is. Let's try and see if the Debian Maintainer is faithful to his proposal this time. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On 16/11/17 01:59, Steve Litt wrote: This situation is nothing unexpected. Many of us predicted in 2014 that Debian would continue throwing down all the anti-anti-systemd obstructionism they could muster. It would not be unreasonable to expect that the time will come where most Debian packages will fail to provide sysvinit scripts. Or, an alternative, non-conflictual interpretation -- people scratch the itches they have. If/when this time comes, we have several alternatives: 1) Help the Debian maintainers, as several have suggested in this thread. 2) Write our own sysvinit scripts, for Devuan only. 3) Write Process Supervisor scripts, and run daemons from a Process Supervisor. I personally don't like #1. The Debian maintainers are obstructionists, so I wouldn't help them: I wouldn't give them the sweat off my W*(#RF(#*. You wouldn't be giving any thing to the Debian developers, you'd be giving to the Debian *users* (and, therefore) to the users of every Debian derived distribution, including Devuan. #2 is nice, helps give Devuan a unique brand, but IMHO making and maintaining a good-for-all-setups sysvinit script is difficult and time consuming. As a matter of fact, those horrible scripts necessary to cover most cases, is what made people furious at sysvinit in the first place: I don't think anyone cared about boot time or parallel instantiation. But you are outraged that the some Debian developers don't want to do this, accusing them of bad faith. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On Wed, 15 Nov 2017 16:50:22 +0100 Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 15/11/2017 à 16:21, KatolaZ a écrit : > > On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 04:14:37PM +0100, John Hughes wrote: > >> On 15/11/17 15:30, Sam Protsenko wrote: > >>> Recently "libreswan" package was added to Debian: [1]. But it only > >>> contains systemd init script and lacks sysvinit script. > >>> Corresponding bug was reported to Debian bug tracking system: > >>> [2]. But libreswan maintainer refuses to include sysvinit script > >>> to his package > >> What Daniel Kahn Gillmor actually said was: > >> > >>> If anyone wants to propose specific patches to the debian > >>> packaging to either have the main libreswan package automatically > >>> support sysvinit (or any other initsystem) or produce a > >>> libreswan-sysvinit (or libreswan-runit, etc) binary package, and > >>> that the patch author volunteers to help test and maintain that > >>> system integration work over time, i'd be open to reviewing and > >>> incorporating reasonable changes into the debian packaging. > >> Which seems pretty reasonable to me. > >> > >> > > So it would be better if Sam Protsenko offered to help the Debian > > maintainer in including and testing the scripts for sysvinit. > > > Apparently Kahn Gillmor requires more: he requires the > commitment of a person as a quasi-maintainer to do the job of > maintaining the init scripts for the package on the long term. This > means Debian maintainers are no longer in charge of maintaining init > files other than systemd's. I doubt we could see one of these > maintainers accept to maintain sysvinit scripts and ask the users to > take care themself of maintaining systemd init files. > > Didier This situation is nothing unexpected. Many of us predicted in 2014 that Debian would continue throwing down all the anti-anti-systemd obstructionism they could muster. It would not be unreasonable to expect that the time will come where most Debian packages will fail to provide sysvinit scripts. If/when this time comes, we have several alternatives: 1) Help the Debian maintainers, as several have suggested in this thread. 2) Write our own sysvinit scripts, for Devuan only. 3) Write Process Supervisor scripts, and run daemons from a Process Supervisor. I personally don't like #1. The Debian maintainers are obstructionists, so I wouldn't help them: I wouldn't give them the sweat off my W*(#RF(#*. #2 is nice, helps give Devuan a unique brand, but IMHO making and maintaining a good-for-all-setups sysvinit script is difficult and time consuming. As a matter of fact, those horrible scripts necessary to cover most cases, is what made people furious at sysvinit in the first place: I don't think anyone cared about boot time or parallel instantiation. #3 is, in my opinion, practical. Any fool can write a run script with environment variables: Even I can do it. In most cases, a daemon doesn't care whether it's started by the main init system, or indirectly by a supervisor started by the main init system. Like #2, this helps give Devuan a unique brand. Also, this future-proofs us: When Debian drags their feet in putting forth a sysvinit init script, a Devuan volunteer can step forward with a supervisor run script. Over a period of time, more and more daemons in Devuan could be run from a single supervisor process. So then the question becomes, what supervisor? Runit? S6? Daemontools-encore? Perp? I'd rule out daemontools-encore for the simple reason that it can never take on the entire role of init. For whatever reason, Perp is unknown, with very little mindshare, so I'd temporarily rule that out. Runit and s6 are both extremely well thought of, can both be turned into complete init systems. The combination of a sysvinit PID1 plus a spawned supervisor can make Devuan capable of running lots of daemons abandoned by Debian, for years to come. SteveT Steve Litt November 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 5:50 PM, Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 15/11/2017 à 16:21, KatolaZ a écrit : >> >> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 04:14:37PM +0100, John Hughes wrote: >>> >>> On 15/11/17 15:30, Sam Protsenko wrote: Recently "libreswan" package was added to Debian: [1]. But it only contains systemd init script and lacks sysvinit script. Corresponding bug was reported to Debian bug tracking system: [2]. But libreswan maintainer refuses to include sysvinit script to his package >>> >>> What Daniel Kahn Gillmor actually said was: >>> If anyone wants to propose specific patches to the debian packaging to either have the main libreswan package automatically support sysvinit (or any other initsystem) or produce a libreswan-sysvinit (or libreswan-runit, etc) binary package, and that the patch author volunteers to help test and maintain that system integration work over time, i'd be open to reviewing and incorporating reasonable changes into the debian packaging. >>> >>> Which seems pretty reasonable to me. >>> >>> >> So it would be better if Sam Protsenko offered to help the Debian >> maintainer in including and testing the scripts for sysvinit. >> > Apparently Kahn Gillmor requires more: he requires the commitment of a > person as a quasi-maintainer to do the job of maintaining the init scripts > for the package on the long term. This means Debian maintainers are no > longer in charge of maintaining init files other than systemd's. I doubt we > could see one of these maintainers accept to maintain sysvinit scripts and > ask the users to take care themself of maintaining systemd init files. > Yes, I tend to agree with you. Good news is, as I said earlier, sysvinit script from upstream libreswan works just fine. I doubt it'll take some hard work to maintain it. More like desire :) > Didier > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 5:21 PM, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 04:14:37PM +0100, John Hughes wrote:
>> On 15/11/17 15:30, Sam Protsenko wrote:
>> >Recently "libreswan" package was added to Debian: [1]. But it only
>> >contains systemd init script and lacks sysvinit script. Corresponding
>> >bug was reported to Debian bug tracking system: [2]. But libreswan
>> >maintainer refuses to include sysvinit script to his package
>> What Daniel Kahn Gillmor actually said was:
>>
>> >If anyone wants to propose specific patches to the debian packaging to
>> >either have the main libreswan package automatically support sysvinit
>> >(or any other initsystem) or produce a libreswan-sysvinit (or
>> >libreswan-runit, etc) binary package, and that the patch author
>> >volunteers to help test and maintain that system integration work over
>> >time, i'd be open to reviewing and incorporating reasonable changes into
>> >the debian packaging.
>>
>> Which seems pretty reasonable to me.
>>
>>
>
> So it would be better if Sam Protsenko offered to help the Debian
> maintainer in including and testing the scripts for sysvinit.
>
I just did. Let's hope Daniel will agree on that. I'd prefer to keep
it in Debian ("upstream" package) and not bother Devuan maintainers.
Otherwise I probably can offer some help here (if needed).
> My2Cents
>
> KatolaZ
>
> --
> [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ]
> [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ]
> [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ]
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Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
Le 15/11/2017 à 16:21, KatolaZ a écrit : On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 04:14:37PM +0100, John Hughes wrote: On 15/11/17 15:30, Sam Protsenko wrote: Recently "libreswan" package was added to Debian: [1]. But it only contains systemd init script and lacks sysvinit script. Corresponding bug was reported to Debian bug tracking system: [2]. But libreswan maintainer refuses to include sysvinit script to his package What Daniel Kahn Gillmor actually said was: If anyone wants to propose specific patches to the debian packaging to either have the main libreswan package automatically support sysvinit (or any other initsystem) or produce a libreswan-sysvinit (or libreswan-runit, etc) binary package, and that the patch author volunteers to help test and maintain that system integration work over time, i'd be open to reviewing and incorporating reasonable changes into the debian packaging. Which seems pretty reasonable to me. So it would be better if Sam Protsenko offered to help the Debian maintainer in including and testing the scripts for sysvinit. Apparently Kahn Gillmor requires more: he requires the commitment of a person as a quasi-maintainer to do the job of maintaining the init scripts for the package on the long term. This means Debian maintainers are no longer in charge of maintaining init files other than systemd's. I doubt we could see one of these maintainers accept to maintain sysvinit scripts and ask the users to take care themself of maintaining systemd init files. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 04:14:37PM +0100, John Hughes wrote: > On 15/11/17 15:30, Sam Protsenko wrote: > >Recently "libreswan" package was added to Debian: [1]. But it only > >contains systemd init script and lacks sysvinit script. Corresponding > >bug was reported to Debian bug tracking system: [2]. But libreswan > >maintainer refuses to include sysvinit script to his package > What Daniel Kahn Gillmor actually said was: > > >If anyone wants to propose specific patches to the debian packaging to > >either have the main libreswan package automatically support sysvinit > >(or any other initsystem) or produce a libreswan-sysvinit (or > >libreswan-runit, etc) binary package, and that the patch author > >volunteers to help test and maintain that system integration work over > >time, i'd be open to reviewing and incorporating reasonable changes into > >the debian packaging. > > Which seems pretty reasonable to me. > > So it would be better if Sam Protsenko offered to help the Debian maintainer in including and testing the scripts for sysvinit. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On 15/11/17 15:30, Sam Protsenko wrote: Recently "libreswan" package was added to Debian: [1]. But it only contains systemd init script and lacks sysvinit script. Corresponding bug was reported to Debian bug tracking system: [2]. But libreswan maintainer refuses to include sysvinit script to his package What Daniel Kahn Gillmor actually said was: If anyone wants to propose specific patches to the debian packaging to either have the main libreswan package automatically support sysvinit (or any other initsystem) or produce a libreswan-sysvinit (or libreswan-runit, etc) binary package, and that the patch author volunteers to help test and maintain that system integration work over time, i'd be open to reviewing and incorporating reasonable changes into the debian packaging. Which seems pretty reasonable to me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
On 11/15/2017 08:30 AM, Sam Protsenko wrote: Can you please provide libreswan package with sysvinit integration in Devuan? Can someone please look into it? P.S. Not sure that feature requests belong here, so if I'm wrong about this, please point me out to correct place. [1] https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=libreswan [2] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=855653 [3] https://anonscm.debian.org/git/collab-maint/libreswan.git/tree/debian/TODO [4] https://github.com/libreswan/libreswan Hi Sam, Thank you for bringing this package to our attention. Good catch! I'll have a look at it later today when I get a chance. Patrick ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Please provide systemd-free libreswan package
Hi, Can you please provide libreswan package with sysvinit integration in Devuan? Recently "libreswan" package was added to Debian: [1]. But it only contains systemd init script and lacks sysvinit script. Corresponding bug was reported to Debian bug tracking system: [2]. But libreswan maintainer refuses to include sysvinit script to his package (although it exists in upstream libreswan). His excuse (from [3]) is that sysvinit script is untested. From my POV it's pretty lame, as it's supported in upstream. Also, I tested it on my PC and it works just fine. Here is the way I added sysvinit script on top of installed Debian libreswan package. - sysvinit script can be generated when doing "make deb" in upstream libreswan source code dir ([4]); copy that script to /etc/init.d/ - run "update-rc.d ipsec defaults" to generate links - now you can do "service ipsec start/stop/restart" (and it works just fine) - also I regenerated Debian package: - removed "--with systemd" from debian/rules - removed systemd dependencies from debian/control Can someone please look into it? Thanks! P.S. Not sure that feature requests belong here, so if I'm wrong about this, please point me out to correct place. [1] https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=libreswan [2] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=855653 [3] https://anonscm.debian.org/git/collab-maint/libreswan.git/tree/debian/TODO [4] https://github.com/libreswan/libreswan ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
