Re: [DNG] Printing -- now even pdf works. I have no idea why.

[Rainer Weikusat]

Didier Kryn  writes:
> Le 22/04/2016 22:24, Rainer Weikusat a écrit :
>> Simon Hobson  writes:
>>> >Didier Kryn  wrote:

[...]

>>> >FWIW I think the idea behind CUPS is a good one - though I haven't
>>> >really fiddled with it. The idea of separating out the input
>>> >transport, format conversions (via a standardised intermediate
>>> >format), and output transports, seems to fit in well with the unix
>>> >philosophy of modularity.
>> That's exactly how a lpr/lpd system works, too.
> I don't remember lpr can present you a list of printers, telling
> where they are, which kind of paper, page size and double-side they
> handle, if they're ready to print and if they're lacking ink. Not all
> of this actually works well in Cups, but at least it has this
> ambition.

Provided a printer supports supplying this information, you'll get that
with lprng, too (provided there's bidirectional communication with a
printer, it can send a text status).

[...]

> With lpr you must manually edit a config line for every single
> printer you want to be able to ever use, and every computer in your
> company must be configured everytime they add or remove a printer.

A networked 'printing system' based on lprng would usually use a (or
some) dedicated spooling server(s). These would be configured such that
they can talk to some printer or printer(s). These printers can then
just be used, eg, this

[rw@doppelsaurus]~#lpq -Pall@192.168.1.1
Printer 'all@192.168.1.1' - cannot open connection - Connection timed
out Make sure the remote host supports the LPD protocol
and accepts connections from this host and from non-privileged (>1023)
ports

asks my router to give me the queue status of all printers attached to
it. Since it's not running a print server, the request fails.

BTW, I didn't claim that lprng was feature-wise on par with CUPS, just
that it also has a job transmission program (lpr), configurable format
conversion programs and a 'send job to printer' backend. And it's
certainly amply sufficient for simple scenarios where one (or a few)
user(s) uses (share) a single printer. Especially if those users don't
mind using something else than "the cavemen interface" ("You point and
you grunt", E. Moglen [IIRC]).
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Re: [DNG] Printing -- now even pdf works. I have no idea why.

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

Didier Kryn writes:
I don't remember lpr can present you a list of printers, 
telling where they are, which kind of paper, page size and 
double-side they handle, if they're ready to print and if 
they're lacking ink. Not all of this actually works well in 
Cups, but at least it has this ambition.


Different lpr versions did have various bits of this. IIRC I wrote code to 
autodetect and support seven different versions of it, and didn't enjoy 
that task at all.


IPP is good, even if Cups isn't the best possible implementation.

Arnt

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Re: [DNG] Printing -- now even pdf works. I have no idea why.

[Didier Kryn]

Le 22/04/2016 22:24, Rainer Weikusat a écrit :

Simon Hobson  writes:

>Didier Kryn  wrote:
>

>>   You can configure cups through the web interface or by editing the config 
files. Editing the config files is easy, apart from understanding the meaning of the 
variables from their names. But there are howtos. For one-time actions like resuming 
operation of a printer, I don't know how to do it but with the web interface.

>
>FWIW I think the idea behind CUPS is a good one - though I haven't
>really fiddled with it. The idea of separating out the input
>transport, format conversions (via a standardised intermediate
>format), and output transports, seems to fit in well with the unix
>philosophy of modularity.

That's exactly how a lpr/lpd system works, too.
I don't remember lpr can present you a list of printers, telling 
where they are, which kind of paper, page size and double-side they 
handle, if they're ready to print and if they're lacking ink. Not all of 
this actually works well in Cups, but at least it has this ambition.


If you run a properly configured Cups on your laptop, you can go 
anywhere, enter the local Cups server address in the config and then you 
can use all the printers out there; if they add or remove a printer, you 
see the change immediately.


With lpr you must manually edit a config line for every single 
printer you want to be able to ever use, and every computer in your 
company must be configured everytime they add or remove a printer.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] Printing -- now even pdf works. I have no idea why.

[Rainer Weikusat]

Simon Hobson  writes:
> Didier Kryn  wrote:
>
>>   You can configure cups through the web interface or by editing the config 
>> files. Editing the config files is easy, apart from understanding the 
>> meaning of the variables from their names. But there are howtos. For 
>> one-time actions like resuming operation of a printer, I don't know how to 
>> do it but with the web interface.
>
> FWIW I think the idea behind CUPS is a good one - though I haven't
> really fiddled with it. The idea of separating out the input
> transport, format conversions (via a standardised intermediate
> format), and output transports, seems to fit in well with the unix
> philosophy of modularity.

That's exactly how a lpr/lpd system works, too.
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Re: [DNG] Printing -- now even pdf works. I have no idea why.

[Simon Hobson]

Didier Kryn  wrote:

>   You can configure cups through the web interface or by editing the config 
> files. Editing the config files is easy, apart from understanding the meaning 
> of the variables from their names. But there are howtos. For one-time actions 
> like resuming operation of a printer, I don't know how to do it but with the 
> web interface.

FWIW I think the idea behind CUPS is a good one - though I haven't really 
fiddled with it. The idea of separating out the input transport, format 
conversions (via a standardised intermediate format), and output transports, 
seems to fit in well with the unix philosophy of modularity.
But as Mac user for  years, I'm also well used to Postscript* and the 
device independency that brings. Being able to add a new printer, and be able 
to use all it's features via the print dialog, with nothing more than a single 
PPD file is really really useful !

* I also did a fair bit of work with it at my last job, again using the device 
independence to simplify converting text out from our systems (running on SCO 
OpenServer, back when SCO stood for good stuff) to a variety of printers - and 
a few other nifty tricks.

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Re: [DNG] Printing -- now even pdf works. I have no idea why.

[Didier Kryn]

Le 22/04/2016 18:01, Simon Hobson a écrit :

Gregory Nowak  wrote:


On a related note, I recently had to replace my almost 20-year-old hp
laserJet 5l because the part that broke couldn't be replaced. So, I
replaced it with a samsung m28253dw. I was struggling to configure
everything how I wanted through a less than fully accessible web
interface, and found myself wishing more than once during the process
that the darned printer had a telnet interface or something more
straight forward.

Ah yes, the "joys" of "interesting" GUI design. I've worked with Samsung printers, and 
generally not been *too* bothered by the GUI - but then I'm used to working with all sorts of stuff, some 
good, some ... well lets just say "not very good".

The Technicolor router I had the misfortune to work with today is another matter - should 
be one of those : first day in the UI design class, tutor shows students a hall of shame, 
with the sage words "here's how not to do it". Took obfuscation of useful stuff 
to a whole new level I've not seen for some time.

You can configure cups through the web interface or by editing the 
config files. Editing the config files is easy, apart from understanding 
the meaning of the variables from their names. But there are howtos. For 
one-time actions like resuming operation of a printer, I don't know how 
to do it but with the web interface.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] Printing -- now even pdf works. I have no idea why.

[Simon Hobson]

Gregory Nowak  wrote:

> On a related note, I recently had to replace my almost 20-year-old hp
> laserJet 5l because the part that broke couldn't be replaced. So, I
> replaced it with a samsung m28253dw. I was struggling to configure
> everything how I wanted through a less than fully accessible web
> interface, and found myself wishing more than once during the process
> that the darned printer had a telnet interface or something more
> straight forward.

Ah yes, the "joys" of "interesting" GUI design. I've worked with Samsung 
printers, and generally not been *too* bothered by the GUI - but then I'm used 
to working with all sorts of stuff, some good, some ... well lets just say "not 
very good".

The Technicolor router I had the misfortune to work with today is another 
matter - should be one of those : first day in the UI design class, tutor shows 
students a hall of shame, with the sage words "here's how not to do it". Took 
obfuscation of useful stuff to a whole new level I've not seen for some time.

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Re: [DNG] Printing -- now even pdf works. I have no idea why.

[Gregory Nowak]

On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 07:05:06PM +, Noel Torres wrote:
> Just curious...
> 
> Why not using CUPS ?

Too bulky and cumbersome. Go to a web interface. Follow link to install
device. Choose device from a list ... I prefer to read up on the
syntax of a config file or two, and just edit them, or write them out
if they aren't already there.

On a related note, I recently had to replace my almost 20-year-old hp
laserJet 5l because the part that broke couldn't be replaced. So, I
replaced it with a samsung m28253dw. I was struggling to configure
everything how I wanted through a less than fully accessible web
interface, and found myself wishing more than once during the process
that the darned printer had a telnet interface or something more
straight forward.

Greg


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Re: [DNG] Printing -- now even pdf works. I have no idea why.

[Noel Torres]

Jaromil  escribió:


On Thu, 21 Apr 2016, Noel Torres wrote:


Just curious...

Why not using CUPS ?

I've been using it since times' night with no issues.


I use CUPS and i'm intrigued by the thread.

I have two printers, one at home and one in the office.

After I switched to Devuan for all my personal computers, something
strange happened to me and I'm still not sure it is related to
Devuan. Believe me when I say I did look deeply into this, but still
did not manage to get the art of troubleshooting to enligthen my path.

The printer at home worked fine for years, then had some red light
blinking crisis, believing its toner was over, but it wasn't in fact,
no actual sign of it on the printed result. Nevertheless, I did change
the toner. Since the red blinking started and even after the change of
the toner (which stopped the red blinking) CUPS stopped being capable
of printing to it.


This has happened to me. Newer versions of CUPS (I do not know from  
which one) "Pause" the printer when there is some printing problem.  
Like no toner, no paper or printer disconnected.


Maybe just accessing localhost:631 and "Resume" it resolves your problem.

...or not.

Noel
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Re: [DNG] Printing -- now even pdf works. I have no idea why.

[Rainer Weikusat]

Noel Torres  writes:
> Just curious...
>
> Why not using CUPS ?
>
> I've been using it since times' night with no issues.

For me, the answer is that I see no benefit in getting accustomed with
something as complicated (looking) as CUPS for as long as I don't want
more than to run some input file through a pipeline of filters (nowadays
provided by the printer vendor) and then send it to some output device.

Judging from the (incomplete) information Hendrik Boom posted, he
originally used

lp=515@172.25.1.122

515 is the lpd printer port. Trying to print to a printer defined in
this way ought to result in an "invalid services" message (or something
like that) as the abstract syntax of this entry (for a network printer)
is

@[%]
(the port is optional and defaults to 515)

By the time he posted this for the first time, I suggested using
something like

lpq -Pall@

(or an equivalent lpc command). A later mail he sent showed the lp entry
as

lp=POSTSCRIPT_P1@172.25.1.15

this is correct for accessing the 'PostScript queue' on a Brother
network printer (which supports PostScript). The Brother printer driver
(aka 'input filter') should take care of the rest. This works for me and
(reportedly) also for him.

NB: I don't claim there is no Evil Black Magic[tm] going on here, just
that I haven't ever encountered any.

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Re: [DNG] Printing -- now even pdf works. I have no idea why.

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 09:20:11PM +0200, Jaromil wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Apr 2016, Noel Torres wrote:
> 
> > Just curious...
> > 
> > Why not using CUPS ?
> > 
> > I've been using it since times' night with no issues.
> 
> I use CUPS and i'm intrigued by the thread.
> 
> I have two printers, one at home and one in the office.
> 
> After I switched to Devuan for all my personal computers, something
> strange happened to me and I'm still not sure it is related to
> Devuan. Believe me when I say I did look deeply into this, but still
> did not manage to get the art of troubleshooting to enligthen my path.
> 
> The printer at home worked fine for years, then had some red light
> blinking crisis, believing its toner was over, but it wasn't in fact,
> no actual sign of it on the printed result. Nevertheless, I did change
> the toner. Since the red blinking started and even after the change of
> the toner (which stopped the red blinking) CUPS stopped being capable
> of printing to it.
> 
> OTOH the printer at the office has never stopped working, before my
> switch to Devuan and up to now.
> 
> I'm completely puzzled by this problem to the point I imagine I know
> how RMS felt like when he started the GNU project. Believe me or not,
> since this happened and as of today I do go to my office to print out
> things, or ask my partner for help. And I'm not a consumer-minded
> person so I refuse to buy a new printer.
> 
> So I'm reading all this thread with interest as its not making me feel
> alone lost on this puzzle.
> 
> I don't believe this is really related to Devuan: following the work
> of Didier on the package
> https://git.devuan.org/devuan-packages/cups/commits/debian/jessie the
> time his commits were made do not coincide at all with the times the
> events on my side occurred.

Wasn't there a time when CUPS was suspected of havin a systemd connexion?
If not, it was suspected of being as obscure and opaque as systemd.
It, with foomatic, appears to install a database of zillions of 
drivers, which I would have to install to get the oonly one I really need.
It feels like overkill.

lpr seems to be the traditional Unix way of doing things, without CUPS.

It might have been easier if I had found the documentation earlier.

-- hendrik

> 
> ciao
> 
> 
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Re: [DNG] Printing -- now even pdf works. I have no idea why.

[Jaromil]

On Thu, 21 Apr 2016, Noel Torres wrote:

> Just curious...
> 
> Why not using CUPS ?
> 
> I've been using it since times' night with no issues.

I use CUPS and i'm intrigued by the thread.

I have two printers, one at home and one in the office.

After I switched to Devuan for all my personal computers, something
strange happened to me and I'm still not sure it is related to
Devuan. Believe me when I say I did look deeply into this, but still
did not manage to get the art of troubleshooting to enligthen my path.

The printer at home worked fine for years, then had some red light
blinking crisis, believing its toner was over, but it wasn't in fact,
no actual sign of it on the printed result. Nevertheless, I did change
the toner. Since the red blinking started and even after the change of
the toner (which stopped the red blinking) CUPS stopped being capable
of printing to it.

OTOH the printer at the office has never stopped working, before my
switch to Devuan and up to now.

I'm completely puzzled by this problem to the point I imagine I know
how RMS felt like when he started the GNU project. Believe me or not,
since this happened and as of today I do go to my office to print out
things, or ask my partner for help. And I'm not a consumer-minded
person so I refuse to buy a new printer.

So I'm reading all this thread with interest as its not making me feel
alone lost on this puzzle.

I don't believe this is really related to Devuan: following the work
of Didier on the package
https://git.devuan.org/devuan-packages/cups/commits/debian/jessie the
time his commits were made do not coincide at all with the times the
events on my side occurred.

ciao


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Re: [DNG] Printing -- now even pdf works. I have no idea why.

[Noel Torres]

Just curious...

Why not using CUPS ?

I've been using it since times' night with no issues.

Regards

Noel
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Re: [DNG] Printing -- now even pdf works. I have no idea why.

[Rainer Weikusat]

Hendrik Boom  writes:

[...]

> HL3170CDW:\
> :mx=0:\
> :sd=/var/spool/lpd/hl3170cdw:\
> :sh:\
> :lp=POSTSCRIPT_P1@172.25.1.15:\
  ^

This could be the magic fix as it's the name of a default Brother
printer queue (for accepting PostScript).
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Re: [DNG] Printing -- now even pdf works. I have no idea why.

[Hendrik Boom]

On Thu, Apr 21, 2016 at 03:18:10PM +0100, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
> Hendrik Boom  writes:
> > On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 05:43:10PM +0100, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
> >> Hendrik Boom  writes:
> >> 
> >> [Brother printer]
> >> 
> >> > I did manage to get the printer going.  I should have mentionned long 
> >> > ago what the final problem was.
> >> >
> >> > It turns out I was trying to print a pdf to a postscript printer.  I 
> >> > thought that pdf was a specialized form of postscript, the way inkscape 
> >> > files are a specialized form of svg.  Turns out that was  completely 
> >> > wrong.
> >> 
> >> This suggests that something is wrong with the driver/ input filter
> >> setup. That's supposed to convert the input file to something the
> >> printer understands. I can print PostScript, PDF and a number of kinds
> >> of files just fine.
> >
> > I'm using the driver from Brother, and lpr from lprng.  I found the 
> > lprng-doc package.  I suppose the next thing is to read it,
> 
> My (working) /etc/printcap looks like this:
> 
> DCP7010:\
> :mx=0:\
> :sd=/var/spool/lpd/DCP7010:\
> :sh:\
> :lp=/dev/usb/lp0:\
> :if=/usr/local/Brother/lpd/filterDCP7010:

And this is mine:

HL3170CDW:\
:mx=0:\
:sd=/var/spool/lpd/hl3170cdw:\
:sh:\
:lp=POSTSCRIPT_P1@172.25.1.15:\
:if=/opt/brother/Printers/hl3170cdw/lpd/filterhl3170cdw:

When I use lpr to feed it a postscript file, such as the following:

%! PRINTPS.CPP PostScript OUTPUT
/cour /Courier findfont 5 scalefont def
cour setfont gsave
%54 756 moveto (cd ~/sys/web/chimera-1.65) show
%54 751 moveto (test-chimera &) show
/cm 72 2.545 div def
% In theory should use 2.54 not 2.545, but this is more accurate on my printer.
/side cm 3 div def
/ssin side 2 div def
/ccos side 30 cos mul def
/vert { 0 side neg rmoveto 0 side rlineto } def
/rise { ccos ssin rlineto } def
/lower { ccos ssin neg rlineto } def
/hexbottom { lower rise } def
/bottomrow { gsave 0 side neg rmoveto
hexbottom  hexbottom  hexbottom  hexbottom  hexbottom  hexbottom  
hexbottom  hexbottom 
hexbottom  hexbottom  hexbottom  hexbottom  hexbottom  hexbottom  
hexbottom  hexbottom 
hexbottom  hexbottom  hexbottom  hexbottom  hexbottom  hexbottom  
hexbottom  hexbottom 
hexbottom  hexbottom  hexbottom  hexbottom  hexbottom  hexbottom  
hexbottom  hexbottom 
stroke grestore } def
/arc {vert rise lower } def 
/row {  arc arc arc arc arc arc arc arc
arc arc arc arc arc arc arc arc
arc arc arc arc arc arc arc arc
arc arc arc arc arc arc arc arc
vert } def
/lowrow {
gsave 0 side neg rmoveto lower stroke grestore
gsave row rise stroke grestore
} def
/highrow { gsave row stroke grestore } def
/2row { lowrow
ccos side ssin add rmoveto
highrow
ccos neg side ssin add rmoveto } def
newpath
54 54 moveto
0.25 setlinewidth 
bottomrow
2row 2row 2row 2row 2row 2row 2row 2row 2row 2row 2row 2row
2row 2row 2row 2row 2row 2row 2row 2row 2row 2row 2row 2row
showpage grestore

I get a lovely page of hexagons.

But if I try to print a pdf,

lpr grouptable.pdf

I get:

Hey! Surprise! Today it does print a pdf.  last time I tried it, it 
didn't.  Let me hope  that whatever was wrong has been fixed, and that 
I'm not just lucky today.

I did change the IP number in the printcap, because the printer's IP 
number has also changed (and it's now static, so I wn't have to do 
this again).  As far as I know, that shouldn't affect printability
pdf's, though.

-- hendrik
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