[DNG] automount Was: Re: A better default windows manager

[Svante Signell]

On Sun, 2015-07-26 at 23:17 -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote:
> That's a very gracious offer, Steve, and I'm sure it will be greatly
> appreciated. =)
> 
> If I might say so, I HATE automount.  Click to mount is fine, but
> automounting peripheral drives like jump drives, CDs and whatnot is an
> inexcusable security risk, in my opinion, even under a UNIX.

Couldn't agree more!

> Mounting should be restricted to only the most experienced users,
> never embedded in the software so every user can across the board.
> The default setup on too many Linux machines reminds me of Windows.

Too sad to see this on GNU/Linux :(

> On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Steve Litt
>  wrote:
> You can roll your own automount with one day's work using
> inotify-wait,
> dmesg, sudo, lsblk, and the mount command. Works without X or
> window
> manager. Heck, I'll do it myself if more than 20 people want
> it.
> 
> SteveT
> 

Count me in, now we are three wanting it, including yourself.


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[DNG] automount Was: Re: A better default windows manager

[Svante Signell]

On Tue, 2015-08-25 at 17:29 +0200, Joerg Reisenweber wrote:
> On Sun 26 July 2015 23:18:58 Steve Litt wrote:
> > You can roll your own automount with one day's work using inotify-wait,
> > dmesg, sudo, lsblk, and the mount command. Works without X or window
> > manager. Heck, I'll do it myself if more than 20 people want it.
> 
> +1
> /j

Steve, what is the current development status of your promised tool?

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Re: [DNG] automount Was: Re: A better default windows manager

[Jaromil]

On Mon, 27 Jul 2015, Svante Signell wrote:
> On Sun, 2015-07-26 at 23:17 -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote:
> > If I might say so, I HATE automount.  Click to mount is fine, but
> > automounting peripheral drives like jump drives, CDs and whatnot is an
> > inexcusable security risk, in my opinion, even under a UNIX.
> 
> Couldn't agree more!

me too...

> > On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Steve Litt
> >  wrote:
> > You can roll your own automount with one day's work using
> > inotify-wait, dmesg, sudo, lsblk, and the mount command.
> > Works without X or window manager. Heck, I'll do it myself
> > if more than 20 people want it.
> 
> Count me in, now we are three wanting it, including yourself.

worth mentioning here, in relation to the "sudo and mount" deps above,
that 'pmount' the perl wrapper that enables users to mount devices
without root is left unmaintained, last release tagget 0.9.99-alpha
https://alioth.debian.org/projects/pmount

I think is worthed reviving esp. because it allows users to loop-mount
iso files, something that is not possible via 'user' option in fstab

ciao


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Re: [DNG] automount Was: Re: A better default windows manager

[Daniel Cegiełka]

2015-07-27 11:45 GMT+02:00 Jaromil :
> On Mon, 27 Jul 2015, Svante Signell wrote:
>> On Sun, 2015-07-26 at 23:17 -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote:
>> > If I might say so, I HATE automount.  Click to mount is fine, but
>> > automounting peripheral drives like jump drives, CDs and whatnot is an
>> > inexcusable security risk, in my opinion, even under a UNIX.
>>
>> Couldn't agree more!
>
> me too...
>
>> > On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Steve Litt
>> >  wrote:
>> > You can roll your own automount with one day's work using
>> > inotify-wait, dmesg, sudo, lsblk, and the mount command.
>> > Works without X or window manager. Heck, I'll do it myself
>> > if more than 20 people want it.
>>
>> Count me in, now we are three wanting it, including yourself.
>
> worth mentioning here, in relation to the "sudo and mount" deps above,
> that 'pmount' the perl wrapper that enables users to mount devices
> without root is left unmaintained, last release tagget 0.9.99-alpha
> https://alioth.debian.org/projects/pmount
>
> I think is worthed reviving esp. because it allows users to loop-mount
> iso files, something that is not possible via 'user' option in fstab
>

wow! Its magic?

https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/pmount/pmount-debian.git/tree/src/Makefile.am

$(INSTALL_DATA) -o root -g root -m 4755 -D $(INSTALL_SRC)/pmount
$(INSTALL_DIR)/pmount
 ^
no... just suid :)

Daniel
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Re: [DNG] automount Was: Re: A better default windows manager

[Robert Storey]

> > On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Steve Litt
> >  wrote:
> > You can roll your own automount with one day's work using
> > inotify-wait, dmesg, sudo, lsblk, and the mount command.
> > Works without X or window manager. Heck, I'll do it myself
> > if more than 20 people want it.
>
> Count me in, now we are three wanting it, including yourself.

Well, I definitely want it. Not sure if I'm counted in the original three,
or if I make four.

2015-07-27 11:45 GMT+02:00 Jaromil :
> On Mon, 27 Jul 2015, Svante Signell wrote:
>> On Sun, 2015-07-26 at 23:17 -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote:
>> > If I might say so, I HATE automount.  Click to mount is fine, but
>> > automounting peripheral drives like jump drives, CDs and whatnot is an
>> > inexcusable security risk, in my opinion, even under a UNIX.

No one is more paranoid when it comes to security than me. But as for the
security risk of automount, I only see it as a problem if we are talking
about a multi-user system in an organization. A single user at home is a
likely scenario for many of us.

Ideally, automount is something that a user should be able to easily
configure. If you'd rather have click-to-mount or fully manual mount,
that's fine. I don't see why it should be any more difficult than editing a
text configuration file (or clicking a box in a gui) to change the setting.

cheers,
Robert
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Re: [DNG] automount Was: Re: A better default windows manager

[Dave Turner]

What he said!

My laptop and my desktop will be easy to use.
Multi-user systems are a different kettle of fish. Security has to take 
to take precedence, but make it too difficult and nobody will use your 
new OS in the first place...


DaveT

On 27/07/15 16:49, Robert Storey wrote:


> > On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Steve Litt
> > mailto:sl...@troubleshooters.com>> wrote:
> > You can roll your own automount with one day's work using
> > inotify-wait, dmesg, sudo, lsblk, and the mount command.
> > Works without X or window manager. Heck, I'll do it myself
> > if more than 20 people want it.
>
> Count me in, now we are three wanting it, including yourself.

Well, I definitely want it. Not sure if I'm counted in the original 
three, or if I make four.


2015-07-27 11:45 GMT+02:00 Jaromil >:

> On Mon, 27 Jul 2015, Svante Signell wrote:
>> On Sun, 2015-07-26 at 23:17 -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote:
>> > If I might say so, I HATE automount.  Click to mount is fine, but
>> > automounting peripheral drives like jump drives, CDs and whatnot 
is an

>> > inexcusable security risk, in my opinion, even under a UNIX.

No one is more paranoid when it comes to security than me. But as for 
the security risk of automount, I only see it as a problem if we are 
talking about a multi-user system in an organization. A single user at 
home is a likely scenario for many of us.


Ideally, automount is something that a user should be able to easily 
configure. If you'd rather have click-to-mount or fully manual mount, 
that's fine. I don't see why it should be any more difficult than 
editing a text configuration file (or clicking a box in a gui) to 
change the setting.


cheers,
Robert





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Re: [DNG] automount Was: Re: A better default windows manager

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 27 Jul 2015 10:10:29 +0200
Svante Signell  wrote:

> On Sun, 2015-07-26 at 23:17 -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote:
> > That's a very gracious offer, Steve, and I'm sure it will be greatly
> > appreciated. =)
> > 
> > If I might say so, I HATE automount.  Click to mount is fine, but
> > automounting peripheral drives like jump drives, CDs and whatnot is
> > an inexcusable security risk, in my opinion, even under a UNIX.
> 
> Couldn't agree more!
> 
> > Mounting should be restricted to only the most experienced users,
> > never embedded in the software so every user can across the board.
> > The default setup on too many Linux machines reminds me of Windows.
> 
> Too sad to see this on GNU/Linux :(

Cheer up Svante. This isn't for your corporation's web servers, it's
for the guy with a desktop, the system's only user, a guy who already
has root but just doesn't want to do su all the time, who just wants
automounting to happen.

There are a million different use cases, and on some of them
automounting makes sense. Other times, running a command as a normal
user makes more sense. Other times, only someone with root should be
mounting.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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Re: [DNG] automount Was: Re: A better default windows manager

[kpb]

On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 00:09:45 -0400
Steve Litt  wrote:

> Cheer up Svante. This isn't for your corporation's web servers, it's
> for the guy with a desktop, the system's only user, a guy who already
> has root but just doesn't want to do su all the time, who just wants
> automounting to happen.
> 

That guy would be me. 

I think that xfce4 with automounting enabled will cover most of us 
desktop/laptop users as a (suggested) default. xfce4 works with 2d or even VESA 
video and so can work on older machines. 

xfce4 can be made to look like Windows XP (panel at the bottom, notifications 
on the right and applications on a menu on the left) which almost all of my 
family, friends, neighbours and students are familiar with. That reduces the 
'unfamiliarity' of e.g. a laptop handed round a meeting or an old desktop in a 
cafe for Web surfing.

cheers
-- 
keithpeter
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Re: [DNG] automount Was: Re: A better default windows manager

[KatolaZ]

On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 09:29:09AM +0100, kpb wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 00:09:45 -0400
> Steve Litt  wrote:
> 
> > Cheer up Svante. This isn't for your corporation's web servers, it's
> > for the guy with a desktop, the system's only user, a guy who already
> > has root but just doesn't want to do su all the time, who just wants
> > automounting to happen.
> > 
> 
> That guy would be me. 
> 
> I think that xfce4 with automounting enabled will cover most of us 
> desktop/laptop users as a (suggested) default. xfce4 works with 2d or even 
> VESA video and so can work on older machines. 
> 
> xfce4 can be made to look like Windows XP (panel at the bottom, notifications 
> on the right and applications on a menu on the left) which almost all of my 
> family, friends, neighbours and students are familiar with. That reduces the 
> 'unfamiliarity' of e.g. a laptop handed round a meeting or an old desktop in 
> a cafe for Web surfing.
> 

I genuinely don't understand the "familiarity" argument, at all. Any
Windows XP user is able to get around with the OSX GUI in a few hours,
and will probably master it in two days. And the OSX GUI is the
farthest thing you can imagine from Windows XP

Isn't it that we have been too much concerned about how dumb a dumb
user can be? Or is it just that GNOME, KDE & Co.  ended up sucking
really a lot in their psychotic quest to emulate other GUIs instead of
proposing something genuinely new when they had the opportunity to do
so? The last true "revolution" in GUIs was NeXTSTEP, 25 years
ago. What came after was just a plethora of mix-and-match of existing
things...

YetAnotherRant

KatolaZ

-- 
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[ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ]
[ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ]
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Re: [DNG] automount Was: Re: A better default windows manager

[Svante Signell]

On Tue, 2015-07-28 at 00:09 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Jul 2015 10:10:29 +0200
> Svante Signell  wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, 2015-07-26 at 23:17 -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote:

> > > Mounting should be restricted to only the most experienced users,
> > > never embedded in the software so every user can across the board.
> > > The default setup on too many Linux machines reminds me of Windows.
> > 
> > Too sad to see this on GNU/Linux :(
> 
> Cheer up Svante. This isn't for your corporation's web servers, it's
> for the guy with a desktop, the system's only user, a guy who already
> has root but just doesn't want to do su all the time, who just wants
> automounting to happen.

To clarify: The annoying issue with windows is that e.g. if you put in
a CD in the reader, some application starts automatically depending on
the CD contents. This behaviour as default is also annoying on GNU/Linux.

> There are a million different use cases, and on some of them
> automounting makes sense. Other times, running a command as a normal
> user makes more sense. Other times, only someone with root should be
> mounting.

Even if automounting sometimes makes sense, it should be easy
configurable! I have not found that on Windows OS versions, maybe I did
not dig enough. However, on Devuan GNU/Linux that would be adding value
to user experience.

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Re: [DNG] automount Was: Re: A better default windows manager

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 11:38:08 +0200
Svante Signell  wrote:

> On Tue, 2015-07-28 at 00:09 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> > On Mon, 27 Jul 2015 10:10:29 +0200
> > Svante Signell  wrote:
> > 
> > > On Sun, 2015-07-26 at 23:17 -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote:
> 
> > > > Mounting should be restricted to only the most experienced
> > > > users, never embedded in the software so every user can across
> > > > the board. The default setup on too many Linux machines reminds
> > > > me of Windows.
> > > 
> > > Too sad to see this on GNU/Linux :(
> > 
> > Cheer up Svante. This isn't for your corporation's web servers, it's
> > for the guy with a desktop, the system's only user, a guy who
> > already has root but just doesn't want to do su all the time, who
> > just wants automounting to happen.
> 
> To clarify: The annoying issue with windows is that e.g. if you put in
> a CD in the reader, some application starts automatically depending on
> the CD contents. This behaviour as default is also annoying on
> GNU/Linux.

I would never, ever, EVER enable automatic application start upon
media/device insertion. My mama didn't raise no fool. I was only
talking about mounting the thing to /mnt/whatever. That's all.


> 
> > There are a million different use cases, and on some of them
> > automounting makes sense. Other times, running a command as a normal
> > user makes more sense. Other times, only someone with root should be
> > mounting.
> 
> Even if automounting sometimes makes sense, it should be easy
> configurable! I have not found that on Windows OS versions, maybe I
> did not dig enough. However, on Devuan GNU/Linux that would be adding
> value to user experience.

The thing I envision is configurable in that if you don't want it you
don't install it :-). I spoze it wouldn't be too difficult to enable
the user to define which /dev devices get automounted.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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Re: [DNG] automount Was: Re: A better default windows manager

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 09:51:08 +0100
KatolaZ  wrote:

> > xfce4 can be made to look like Windows XP (panel at the bottom,
> > notifications on the right and applications on a menu on the left)
> > which almost all of my family, friends, neighbours and students are
> > familiar with. That reduces the 'unfamiliarity' of e.g. a laptop
> > handed round a meeting or an old desktop in a cafe for Web surfing.
> > 
> 
> I genuinely don't understand the "familiarity" argument, at all. 

I think I can explain it.

> Any
> Windows XP user is able to get around with the OSX GUI in a few hours,
> and will probably master it in two days. 

I've always had a lot of trouble operating Macs.

> And the OSX GUI is the
> farthest thing you can imagine from Windows XP

I don't see it that way. IIRC OSX has a start menu, which is the major
user interface entry point of Win95/XP.

To me, things that are far from Windows XP are Windowmaker, Unity,
Gnome3, and TWM. No start menu, and in the cases of Unity and Gnome3, no
deterministic menu at all: The menu depends on past usage (you can't
make this up, folks).

> 
> Isn't it that we have been too much concerned about how dumb a dumb
> user can be? 

Of course we've been much to concerned about how dumb a dumb user can
be. However, in the case of window managers,  not so much.

I hate Bill Gates. But I have to give him one thing: When he was
designing Win95, he had a bunch of users sit down and work, and M$
people watched. For Win95, Bill Gates came up with a UI that was pure
genius: A start menu button that said "start", and then you get walked
level by level through a menu. It's just plain obvious, and there are
no downsides. I don't know why so many window managers, and Windows
itself, walked away from that interface. You could take a newly arrived
Martian, sit him down at a Win95 (or default LXDE) computer, and he'd
just start working.


> Or is it just that GNOME, KDE & Co.  ended up sucking
> really a lot in their psychotic quest to emulate other GUIs instead of
> proposing something genuinely new when they had the opportunity to do
> so? 

AFAIK, KDE is still a Win95 type interface with a deterministic start
menu. I banned all KDE libraries from my computers for a completely
different reason.

Gnome is a perfect example of your observation of "sucking a really a
lot in their psychotic quest to emulate other GUIs". When Win7 came out
with that fuzzy "we know what you want" menu, Gnome switched from the
Gnome2 deterministic start menu to the Gnome3 "hey, relax, we know what
you want, just go with the flow" interface.

> The last true "revolution" in GUIs was NeXTSTEP, 25 years
> ago. What came after was just a plethora of mix-and-match of existing
> things...

If Windowmaker at all resembles NeXTStep, I'm not a fan. After a decade
of trying, Windowmaker is still unfathomable to me. Also, what's so
great about "new"? I'd prefer "good" to "new" every day of the week,
and personally, I've seen little positive or negative correllation
between "new" and "good".

But I digress: We're talking about the *default* window manager. It
should be something obvious, and Xfce configured with a start button
and taskbar is obvious. From there, you can switch to a NeXTStep type
thing, and I can switch to a modified Openbox plus dmenu. Neither of
which I'd wish on an uninitiated user.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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Re: [DNG] automount Was: Re: A better default windows manager

[Steven W. Scott]

If you want a quick hack, I'm using a couple commands in a perl script
kicked off from inittab that works pretty well for listing attached media
with a recognizable filesystem on an appliance I'm working on - its meant
to provide a list of mountable drives but wouldn't take much to perform the
mount since it's running as root anyways.
Source:

#!/usr/bin/perl

while (sleep 10) {
`blkid -c /dev/null > /tmp/dvols.txt`;
`fdisk -l > /tmp/fdl.txt 2> /dev/null`;
   }


the blkid gives a nice list of volumes and labels in dvols.txt, fdisk for
the partitions & filesystems.
for mounting everything needed is in the fdisk -l output - I just use the
blkid for presentation information and to exclude my appliance related
drives

Admittedly a crude approach, but it's worked fairly reliably for me.

 By directing the output from the fdisk command to an array one could
easily run through the output and mount anything not already mounted.



SWS

On Wed, Aug 26, 2015 at 6:58 AM, Svante Signell 
wrote:

> On Tue, 2015-08-25 at 17:29 +0200, Joerg Reisenweber wrote:
> > On Sun 26 July 2015 23:18:58 Steve Litt wrote:
> > > You can roll your own automount with one day's work using inotify-wait,
> > > dmesg, sudo, lsblk, and the mount command. Works without X or window
> > > manager. Heck, I'll do it myself if more than 20 people want it.
> >
> > +1
> > /j
>
> Steve, what is the current development status of your promised tool?
>
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Re: [DNG] automount Was: Re: A better default windows manager

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 26 Aug 2015 12:58:14 +0200
Svante Signell  wrote:

> On Tue, 2015-08-25 at 17:29 +0200, Joerg Reisenweber wrote:
> > On Sun 26 July 2015 23:18:58 Steve Litt wrote:
> > > You can roll your own automount with one day's work using
> > > inotify-wait, dmesg, sudo, lsblk, and the mount command. Works
> > > without X or window manager. Heck, I'll do it myself if more than
> > > 20 people want it.
> > 
> > +1
> > /j
> 
> Steve, what is the current development status of your promised tool?

I haven't started it yet. Only about 4 people have said they wanted it.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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Re: [DNG] automount Was: Re: A better default windows manager

[Go Linux]

On Wed, 8/26/15, Steve Litt  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [DNG] automount Was: Re:  A better default windows manager
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Wednesday, August 26, 2015, 11:31 AM
 
 On Wed, 26 Aug 2015
 12:58:14 +0200
 Svante Signell 
 wrote:
 
 > On Tue,
 2015-08-25 at 17:29 +0200, Joerg Reisenweber wrote:
> > On Sun 26 July 2015 23:18:58 Steve Litt wrote:
> > > You can roll your own automount with one day's work using
> > > inotify-wait, dmesg, sudo, lsblk, and the mount command. Works
> > > without X or window manager. Heck, I'll do it myself if more than
> > > 20 people want it.
> >
> > +1
> > /j
>
> Steve, what is the current development status of your promised tool?

I haven't started it yet. Only about 4 people have said they wanted it.

SteveT



Excuses, excuses . . .  ;)  OK.  Add me to the list.  I wanna see you do this!!

golinux

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Re: [DNG] automount Was: Re: A better default windows manager

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 26 Aug 2015 12:58:14 +0200
Svante Signell  wrote:

> On Tue, 2015-08-25 at 17:29 +0200, Joerg Reisenweber wrote:
> > On Sun 26 July 2015 23:18:58 Steve Litt wrote:
> > > You can roll your own automount with one day's work using
> > > inotify-wait, dmesg, sudo, lsblk, and the mount command. Works
> > > without X or window manager. Heck, I'll do it myself if more than
> > > 20 people want it.
> > 
> > +1
> > /j
> 
> Steve, what is the current development status of your promised tool?

I just did a little work on it, and then realized there's a package
that might do this for us, in a better way than I'd anticipated.

Please try the pmount package, and see if that fulfills your automount
needs.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt 
August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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Re: [DNG] automount Was: Re: A better default windows manager

[David Hare]

On 27/08/15 15:09, Steve Litt wrote:

On Wed, 26 Aug 2015 12:58:14 +0200
Svante Signell  wrote:


On Tue, 2015-08-25 at 17:29 +0200, Joerg Reisenweber wrote:

On Sun 26 July 2015 23:18:58 Steve Litt wrote:

You can roll your own automount with one day's work using
inotify-wait, dmesg, sudo, lsblk, and the mount command. Works
without X or window manager. Heck, I'll do it myself if more than
20 people want it.


+1
/j


Steve, what is the current development status of your promised tool?


I just did a little work on it, and then realized there's a package
that might do this for us, in a better way than I'd anticipated.

Please try the pmount package, and see if that fulfills your automount
needs.

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt


There is also udevil (nothing to do with udev)

David
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Re: [DNG] automount Was: Re: A better default windows manager

[fsmithred]

On 08/26/2015 01:08 PM, Go Linux wrote:
> On Wed, 8/26/15, Steve Litt  wrote:
> 
>  Subject: Re: [DNG] automount Was: Re:  A better default windows manager
>  To: dng@lists.dyne.org
>  Date: Wednesday, August 26, 2015, 11:31 AM
>  
>  On Wed, 26 Aug 2015
>  12:58:14 +0200
>  Svante Signell 
>  wrote:
>  
>  > On Tue,
>  2015-08-25 at 17:29 +0200, Joerg Reisenweber wrote:
>>> On Sun 26 July 2015 23:18:58 Steve Litt wrote:
>>>> You can roll your own automount with one day's work using
>>>> inotify-wait, dmesg, sudo, lsblk, and the mount command. Works
>>>> without X or window manager. Heck, I'll do it myself if more than
>>>> 20 people want it.
>>>
>>> +1
>>> /j
>>
>> Steve, what is the current development status of your promised tool?
> 
> I haven't started it yet. Only about 4 people have said they wanted it.
> 
> SteveT
> 
> 
> 
> Excuses, excuses . . .  ;)  OK.  Add me to the list.  I wanna see you do 
> this!!
> 
> golinux
> 
> ___


[[ SIX = "me too" ]]


Steve,

Think like a politician - every letter someone sends is worth 10 voters
(local), 100 voters (state), or 1000 voters (federal).

Or think of us as cockroaches - for every one you see, there are 10 behind
the wall.

fsr


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