Re: [Dng] Claim your power
Please don't feed the trolls. Thank you. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Claim your power
I wouldn't say systemd developers are evil merely selfish On Tuesday, March 31, 2015, Martin Steigerwald mar...@lichtvoll.de wrote: Hi! As a honest feedback: Currently I do not read much of the threads here. Cause again and again I see language like systemd being like a cancer or infecting people´s systems. It is neither a cancer, nor does it infect systems. What this kind of language mirrors in my eyes is fear of having to put up with systemd at some point. Yet, at any time it has been upstream developers or package maintainers who *decided* to adopt it. Saying that systemd is the source of all evil and we are doomed to it, is in no way helpful for any we want to be without systemd efforts like Devuan. Quite the opposite: It harms the credibility of such projects, cause it gives the impression that those projects just consists of a bunch of people who circulate conspirations theories about systemd *without* doing *anything* about the situation. So here is my plea to stay to what you actually *really* perceive. Stop assuming intentions. Especially stop assuming bad intentions. I think that systemd developers essentially mean it good. They have no evil plans to take over the world or do harm to others. Instead they believe that what they do is worthwhile. Of course its totally and perfectly okay not to agree with that. But please stop assuming intentions that may or may not be there. And for your own benefit, stop using a language which gives your power away. systemd is no cancer and it does not infect systems. If systemd is on your system, either you installed it or upgraded it and your distro package maintainers decided to use it. So systemd developers, if you agree with it or not, had quite some success in convincing others to use and rely on systemd. Yet this is exactly what makes Devuan possible: If you put some effort to it, like for example Jude does without engaging much into the fear based threads so far as I have seen, *it is perfectly possible to have a system without systemd*. And no systemd whatsoever would infect such a system. It just doesn´t have the power to do it. Its a piece of code. It has no power whatsoever on its own. Its no evil critter which just sits next to computer and waits for a chance to take it over. And if you are constructive and positive in your approach, and your systems provides a good alternative, then more may adopt it in the future. Yes, some upstream developers decided to rely on functionality provided by systemd and some depend on it, instead of making it optional. And yes, I see this development with concern. But it is still a decision. No automatic effect. systemd has absolutely and totally *no* power over you. systemd upstream has absolutely and totally *no* power over you. I want to repeat this: Neither systemd nor systemd upstream have any power over you. This is still *free* software. Stop giving your power away. Instead: Claim it. Claim it by using a language that is free of self- defeating patterns like that. A language that puts back the responsibility in your hands. Feel your fear, appreciate it, and by that unlock the power you locked down in it. You have any power in the world to support any efforts to have a systemd free system. So now choose: In what way do you want to spend your energy? Did any of the talk about systemd being a cancer or infecting people´s system do *any* good to change the situation? Did it work? Or do efforts like the one of Jude with vdev any good to change the situation? Does it work? Do more of what works, and instead of repeating patterns that are ineffective in changing your current situation, do something that works as well. Or if you do not want to invest the time, let others do it and be grateful about it instead of filling this list with powerless and self-defeating thought patterns. (That said I think cancer usually is no death sentence either and there are quite powerful approaches in addition or as alternative to academic medicine to deal with it. And I believe that there are ways to help the body to deal with any kind of infection.) Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org javascript:; https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Claim your power
On Tue 31 March 2015 10:10:28 Martin Steigerwald wrote: So here is my plea to stay to what you actually *really* perceive. Stop assuming intentions. Especially stop assuming bad intentions. I think that systemd developers essentially mean it good. They have no evil plans to take over the world or do harm to others. Instead they believe that what they do is worthwhile. Of course its totally and perfectly okay not to agree with that. While I generally agree with the reasoning of your post, I still feel to point out that it is not only OK but actually PC and mandatory to question the motivations and goals of those who introduce a new idea or concept. Otherwise you're always late and only can react on the fallout (intentionally ambiguous wording). When I read terms like cancer and infect then I don't only relate them to the binary on my system but also to the social aspects of the whole issue that you mentioned (distro maintainers all too cheerfully adopting systemd, lots of fanboys claiming linux never really worked before systemd came along, and generally the idea that freedom would mean some company can take the joint effort of generations of developers into a new direction decided upon by only a dozen of members of systemd cabal¹ ), and I think in that context those terms describe pretty accurately what's happening. Regarding any master plans behind systemd: they are less obvious to some than they are to others, but it seems there been sound arguments that - no matter if intentional or not, planned or not - systemd movement *will* actually *implement* a drastically changed ecosystem that looks much favorable for RH and takes away freedom of general linux community. What's the use in trying to refrain from blaming RH for *intentionally* trying to 'achieve world dominion' when actually what systemd cabal does is evidently establishing exactly that, at least long term? /j ¹ http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Claim your power
Hi! As a honest feedback: Currently I do not read much of the threads here. Cause again and again I see language like systemd being like a cancer or infecting people´s systems. It is neither a cancer, nor does it infect systems. What this kind of language mirrors in my eyes is fear of having to put up with systemd at some point. Yet, at any time it has been upstream developers or package maintainers who *decided* to adopt it. Saying that systemd is the source of all evil and we are doomed to it, is in no way helpful for any we want to be without systemd efforts like Devuan. Quite the opposite: It harms the credibility of such projects, cause it gives the impression that those projects just consists of a bunch of people who circulate conspirations theories about systemd *without* doing *anything* about the situation. So here is my plea to stay to what you actually *really* perceive. Stop assuming intentions. Especially stop assuming bad intentions. I think that systemd developers essentially mean it good. They have no evil plans to take over the world or do harm to others. Instead they believe that what they do is worthwhile. Of course its totally and perfectly okay not to agree with that. But please stop assuming intentions that may or may not be there. And for your own benefit, stop using a language which gives your power away. systemd is no cancer and it does not infect systems. If systemd is on your system, either you installed it or upgraded it and your distro package maintainers decided to use it. So systemd developers, if you agree with it or not, had quite some success in convincing others to use and rely on systemd. Yet this is exactly what makes Devuan possible: If you put some effort to it, like for example Jude does without engaging much into the fear based threads so far as I have seen, *it is perfectly possible to have a system without systemd*. And no systemd whatsoever would infect such a system. It just doesn´t have the power to do it. Its a piece of code. It has no power whatsoever on its own. Its no evil critter which just sits next to computer and waits for a chance to take it over. And if you are constructive and positive in your approach, and your systems provides a good alternative, then more may adopt it in the future. Yes, some upstream developers decided to rely on functionality provided by systemd and some depend on it, instead of making it optional. And yes, I see this development with concern. But it is still a decision. No automatic effect. systemd has absolutely and totally *no* power over you. systemd upstream has absolutely and totally *no* power over you. I want to repeat this: Neither systemd nor systemd upstream have any power over you. This is still *free* software. Stop giving your power away. Instead: Claim it. Claim it by using a language that is free of self- defeating patterns like that. A language that puts back the responsibility in your hands. Feel your fear, appreciate it, and by that unlock the power you locked down in it. You have any power in the world to support any efforts to have a systemd free system. So now choose: In what way do you want to spend your energy? Did any of the talk about systemd being a cancer or infecting people´s system do *any* good to change the situation? Did it work? Or do efforts like the one of Jude with vdev any good to change the situation? Does it work? Do more of what works, and instead of repeating patterns that are ineffective in changing your current situation, do something that works as well. Or if you do not want to invest the time, let others do it and be grateful about it instead of filling this list with powerless and self-defeating thought patterns. (That said I think cancer usually is no death sentence either and there are quite powerful approaches in addition or as alternative to academic medicine to deal with it. And I believe that there are ways to help the body to deal with any kind of infection.) Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Claim your power
Selfish in what way exactly? Is Systemd closed source? On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 9:53 AM, shraptor shraptor shrap...@gmail.com wrote: I wouldn't say systemd developers are evil merely selfish On Tuesday, March 31, 2015, Martin Steigerwald mar...@lichtvoll.de wrote: Hi! As a honest feedback: Currently I do not read much of the threads here. Cause again and again I see language like systemd being like a cancer or infecting people´s systems. It is neither a cancer, nor does it infect systems. What this kind of language mirrors in my eyes is fear of having to put up with systemd at some point. Yet, at any time it has been upstream developers or package maintainers who *decided* to adopt it. Saying that systemd is the source of all evil and we are doomed to it, is in no way helpful for any we want to be without systemd efforts like Devuan. Quite the opposite: It harms the credibility of such projects, cause it gives the impression that those projects just consists of a bunch of people who circulate conspirations theories about systemd *without* doing *anything* about the situation. So here is my plea to stay to what you actually *really* perceive. Stop assuming intentions. Especially stop assuming bad intentions. I think that systemd developers essentially mean it good. They have no evil plans to take over the world or do harm to others. Instead they believe that what they do is worthwhile. Of course its totally and perfectly okay not to agree with that. But please stop assuming intentions that may or may not be there. And for your own benefit, stop using a language which gives your power away. systemd is no cancer and it does not infect systems. If systemd is on your system, either you installed it or upgraded it and your distro package maintainers decided to use it. So systemd developers, if you agree with it or not, had quite some success in convincing others to use and rely on systemd. Yet this is exactly what makes Devuan possible: If you put some effort to it, like for example Jude does without engaging much into the fear based threads so far as I have seen, *it is perfectly possible to have a system without systemd*. And no systemd whatsoever would infect such a system. It just doesn´t have the power to do it. Its a piece of code. It has no power whatsoever on its own. Its no evil critter which just sits next to computer and waits for a chance to take it over. And if you are constructive and positive in your approach, and your systems provides a good alternative, then more may adopt it in the future. Yes, some upstream developers decided to rely on functionality provided by systemd and some depend on it, instead of making it optional. And yes, I see this development with concern. But it is still a decision. No automatic effect. systemd has absolutely and totally *no* power over you. systemd upstream has absolutely and totally *no* power over you. I want to repeat this: Neither systemd nor systemd upstream have any power over you. This is still *free* software. Stop giving your power away. Instead: Claim it. Claim it by using a language that is free of self- defeating patterns like that. A language that puts back the responsibility in your hands. Feel your fear, appreciate it, and by that unlock the power you locked down in it. You have any power in the world to support any efforts to have a systemd free system. So now choose: In what way do you want to spend your energy? Did any of the talk about systemd being a cancer or infecting people´s system do *any* good to change the situation? Did it work? Or do efforts like the one of Jude with vdev any good to change the situation? Does it work? Do more of what works, and instead of repeating patterns that are ineffective in changing your current situation, do something that works as well. Or if you do not want to invest the time, let others do it and be grateful about it instead of filling this list with powerless and self-defeating thought patterns. (That said I think cancer usually is no death sentence either and there are quite powerful approaches in addition or as alternative to academic medicine to deal with it. And I believe that there are ways to help the body to deal with any kind of infection.) Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Claim your power
Hi Jörg, Am Dienstag, 31. März 2015, 10:40:14 schrieb Joerg Reisenweber: On Tue 31 March 2015 10:10:28 Martin Steigerwald wrote: So here is my plea to stay to what you actually *really* perceive. Stop assuming intentions. Especially stop assuming bad intentions. I think that systemd developers essentially mean it good. They have no evil plans to take over the world or do harm to others. Instead they believe that what they do is worthwhile. Of course its totally and perfectly okay not to agree with that. While I generally agree with the reasoning of your post, I still feel to point out that it is not only OK but actually PC and mandatory to question the motivations and goals of those who introduce a new idea or concept. Otherwise you're always late and only can react on the fallout (intentionally ambiguous wording). When I read terms like cancer and infect then I don't only relate them to the binary on my system but also to the social aspects of the whole issue that you mentioned (distro maintainers all too cheerfully adopting systemd, lots of fanboys claiming linux never really worked before systemd came along, and generally the idea that freedom would mean some company can take the joint effort of generations of developers into a new direction decided upon by only a dozen of members of systemd cabal¹ ), and I think in that context those terms describe pretty accurately what's happening. Regarding any master plans behind systemd: they are less obvious to some than they are to others, but it seems there been sound arguments that - no matter if intentional or not, planned or not - systemd movement *will* actually *implement* a drastically changed ecosystem that looks much favorable for RH and takes away freedom of general linux community. What's the use in trying to refrain from blaming RH for *intentionally* trying to 'achieve world dominion' when actually what systemd cabal does is evidently establishing exactly that, at least long term? I do think the polarity which systemd triggers is way more *social* than *technical*, as I outlined in a thread to systemd-devel I started in September 2014[1]. So I agree with that. Yet, I still do not think that any bad intentions are behind it. Sure, there are intentions. But ultimately I do not *know* them. Yes, it seems to me that systemd upstream developers have a different view on how a Linux system should look like than what I am used to what it looks like. In above thread at some time Lennart was calling me Now you are being a dick instead of continuing the discussion, so I think there is a limited acceptance for even discussing a different way to put Linux systems together. And more so a total resistance to discuss and address any *social* issues. Yet, I do think genuinely systemd upstream developers believe that what they do is good and worthwile for Linux (and not only RedHat). I also do not agree that it is RedHat´s intention to take over Linux completely. They can´t anyway. They just do not have the power to do it. Sure, RedHat is the biggest commercial Linux distributor. Sure as such entity I bet it has the goal to raise its profits even more. Sure also they employ Lennart meanwhile and the drove systemd adoption. But I do not think there are any bad or evil intentions or even any we are the only ones who decide what goes into Linux intentions behind it. On any account I do think that it is a *total waste of time* to speculate about intentions. Every single moment, every single minute can be spend in a more effective way on the goal of having a systemd free system instead. So I stop this here now. Its just that a part of the current Linux users and developers!, including upstream kernel developers as I found out do not agree to this new way to put a Linux system together. A part of the Linux users and developers may also not agree with the way systemd upstream handles the feedback it receives which is the social issue. And thats fine. I do not think that any terms like cancer, infection or cabal are any helpful there. What I perceive as the most pressing social issue around systemd and systemd upstream, but also partly systemd Debian packagers is the complete refusal to treat some bug reports and some kind of feedback in a way that actually *acknowledges* the feedback. See the wont fix on the Google nameserver thing, see some systemd related bug reports on freedesktop, see the comment on Linus to Kay Sievers about the debug kernel command line. Linus put it really bluntly. I bet you can find his post easily. That is the most severe social issue: Some systemd upstream developers and systemd debian packagers do seem to believe so much that their way is right, that they do not even consider that a different oppinion could be valid *at all*. And if one brings this up as a social issues they completely refuse to discuss it. I experienced this myself on systemd- devel
Re: [Dng] Claim your power
Am Dienstag, 31. März 2015, 11:11:31 schrieb Joerg Reisenweber: On Tue 31 March 2015 09:59:48 Damien Hunter wrote: Selfish in what way exactly? maybe in a way where they put their own priorities on top and ruthlessly follow them, no matter if that breaks stuff for a lot or even majority of other users. Selfish as in egozentric and not at all open to any criticism or discussion of a better approach. I agree with that one. See my reply to your first post. Linus put it quite bluntly as hey address the debug line thing Kay Sievers refused to fix at that time. I have seen this pattern repeatedly with systemd upstreamd and in part also systemd Debian packagers. -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Claim your power
On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 11:16:02AM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote: [cut] What I perceive as the most pressing social issue around systemd and systemd upstream, but also partly systemd Debian packagers is the complete refusal to treat some bug reports and some kind of feedback in a way that actually *acknowledges* the feedback. See the wont fix on the Google nameserver thing, see some systemd related bug reports on freedesktop, see the comment on Linus to Kay Sievers about the debug kernel command line. Linus put it really bluntly. I bet you can find his post easily. That is the most severe social issue: Some systemd upstream developers and systemd debian packagers do seem to believe so much that their way is right, that they do not even consider that a different oppinion could be valid *at all*. And if one brings this up as a social issues they completely refuse to discuss it. I experienced this myself on systemd- devel before I unsubscribed there again. I experienced this myself on own systemd related bug reports I filed with Debian. Hi Martin, that's exactly what I referred to when I talked of the systemd-nonsense as a cancer. The damage is not merely technical and localised to the relatively minor issue of replacing PID 1, as you correctly pointed out, but systemic and social. And that's exactly why we should be more concerned about it. As far as I can remember, no major free software project has survived long by answering wont fix more often that thanks for pointing this out. The only difference here is that we are not talking of an editor or a shell, for which you have several hundred easy replacements, but of an entire new way of conceiving free software development, which can be summarised in I don't mind WTF you think is good, because I am the only one in charge. And unfortunately this new way is rapidly spreading, as you correctly pointed out again, from the systemd core team to systemd package maintainers and project leaders. That's exactly why I believe that the Devuan effort is more fundamental, because it will establish and confirm an *proactive* and *human* free software development model. HND KatolaZ P.S.: I acknowledge that doing things is ways more important that chit-chatting, but I believe that the (sometimes prolonged) threads in this ML are contributing to build a new sense of community, so it's not just wasted time ;-) -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Claim your power
On Tue 31 March 2015 11:57:00 Udo Rader wrote: And when it comes to wording and social (mis)behaviour, I think Lennart said it very well for himself in his interview last October: The Open Source community is full of assholes Perfect excuse to act like one yourself ;-) [not addressed to OP] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Claim your power
On Tue 31 March 2015 11:16:02 Martin Steigerwald wrote: I do not think that any terms like cancer, infection or cabal are any helpful there. NB not *I* invented systemd cabal term, it been Poettering himself, in his blog I linked above. here again for your convenience: http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Claim your power
On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 01:59:28PM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote: If you want to see this as a cancer or virus infection you are subjected to, it is your choice. I doubt that it is a choice that is effective at changing the situation, but it is your choice. Seeing it as a cancer is motivation for changing the situation. Without motivation, things tend not to get done. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Claim your power
Am Dienstag, 31. März 2015, 11:57:00 schrieb Udo Rader: On 03/31/2015 10:10 AM, Martin Steigerwald wrote: It is neither a cancer, nor does it infect systems. Systemd Gains IP Forwarding, IP Masquerading Basic Firewall Controls http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=systemd-networkd-IP- Forward Systemd Works On PPPoE Support http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTgyODQ Gummiboot UEFI Boot Loader To Be Added To Systemd http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=systemd-Gummiboot-Boo t-Loader Systemd 217 Will Introduce Its New Consoled User Console Daemon http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_itempx=MTgwNzQ if it is not cancer, it is at least an extremely serious virus infection ... But you are right, the infection is not done by systemd itself but by package maintainers going down the road along with systemd. Udo, get my message, or not. It is your choice. I think I do not have to add anything to what I wrote. I do not want to argue *at all* on who is right. This whole who is right thing is the fundament of the issue at hand here. If you want to see this as a cancer or virus infection you are subjected to, it is your choice. I doubt that it is a choice that is effective at changing the situation, but it is your choice. I won´t spend any energy to argue with it. You either get my message, or you don´t. Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Claim your power
On 2015-03-31 10:10, Martin Steigerwald wrote: Hi! Neither systemd nor systemd upstream have any power over you. This is still *free* software. Stop giving your power away. Ciao, the systemd discussion is most importantly not a technical discussion but a discussion on its centralized design philosophy and how we (who have just become) the alienated digital minority, should best respond to these developments, even at this time we as a group are not consulted on this subject. The centralized design philosophy offers no real choice but to follow that was is thought best for you, essentially marginalizing parts of the free software developer community. I would not be surprised if this centralized effort results in one inconvenience compounded to another in the long run so clearly we need a viable alternative (Devuan) Especially stunning is also the post-snowden effect they are adding by stating that they want a fully trustable OS - where everything can be verified by a full trust chain for the lowest to highest level, you know - to guard you from eavesdropping or malicious software whilst in reality it is a single point of failure. Remember the security breach at Diginotar in 2011? Privacy leaks have just grown to biblical proportions. Add a military contractor on top of that and conspiracy theories pop up like mushrooms after a rainy day. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Claim your power
On Tue, 31 Mar 2015 10:10:28 +0200 Martin Steigerwald mar...@lichtvoll.de wrote: Saying that systemd is the source of all evil and we are doomed to it, is in no way helpful for any we want to be without systemd efforts like Devuan. Quite the opposite: It harms the credibility of such projects, cause it gives the impression that those projects just consists of a bunch of people who circulate conspirations theories about systemd *without* doing *anything* about the situation. I've seen almost nobody on the Dng list make the compound statement referenced in the first sentence of the preceding paragraph. Systemd is the source of all evil? Certainly, a lot of us believe it's evil. We're doomed to it? No, that's strictly a Debian-User talking point, and I haven't seen it used here. If you're interpreting systemd is the source of all evil as we are doomed to it, I think you're misinterpreting what people meant. In fact, we've gathered around Devuan specifically to eliminate systemd. Regardless of motivation or philosophy or anything else, the one thing we're *actually doing* on this distro is getting rid of systemd. Now here's the thing: The people gathered around Devuan all want to be free of systemd, but for many different reasons. Some don't like its architecture. Some want to retain the ability to write init scripts. Some want native text logs. Some don't like its lead programmer. Some don't like its sponsor. Some believe it's the opening salvo in an Embrace-Extend-Extinquish attack. Some are tired of their low level operating system being somebody else's experimental lab. So we all work together. Conspiracy theorists and init script lovers, Redhat haters and modularity insisters, we all must work together, because if we don't all hang together, we most certainly will hang separately. I think we all should accept each others' motivations for working on Devuan. That's the sure way of guaranteeing that we'll never be doomed to systemd. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
