Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 1 Aug 2016 23:04:25 +0200
Adam Borowski  wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 11:36:23AM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> > A case in  point is asciidoc.  It's used to generate HTML pages and 
> > books.  To do books it recommends other sofftware that takes about
> > a gigabyte on disk.  Now the Docbook stuff and the LaTeX stuff are 
> > necessary for producing books (i.e., printable pdf's) but if you're 
> > planning on using it to generate web pages it's a real surprise 
> > when all that stuff gets hauled in.  
> 
> TeX does far, far more than just "books".  These days printing uses
> mostly Windowsish patterns, but, especially last millenium, you
> couldn't get a non-toy printer without postscript.  And in my time at
> the university, any paper you read came in .ps or some TeX-related
> form.
> 
> On the other hand, I see the TeX world isn't anywhere as popular as
> it was back in the day, so perhaps this Recommends could be
> downgraded.

Here's my opinion, based on 15 years authoring books for sale, using
LyX, which purports itself to be a front end for LaTeX...

TeX is a language made for layout on paper. LaTeX is a superset of TeX
enabling a use of a wider variety of fonts, and making easier many
things you'd want to do with paper.

Neither is especially good for describing a styled document not
associated with a particular output format. They're too wedded to paper.

You can't write TeX or LaTeX and easily transpose it to HTML or ePub.
If you anticipate your creation being viewed in anything but PDF (which
produces paper), TeX and LaTeX are the wrong authoring environment:
They're at best an intermediate stage.

HTML and ePub are more popular than PDF today. Xhtml is an excellent
native format for styled documents targetted at HTML and ePub, and it's
also a pretty good native format to convert to PDF via LaTeX.

There's no reason for asciidoc to recommend any TeX of any kind. It can
write to HTML just fine (within its limits). TeX is **HUGE**, and you
don't want it unless you need it. And any author using asciidoc with
the idea of outputting to PDF knows he needs either TeX (LaTeX
probably) or some ugly XSLT transform, and can install the necessary
stuff.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
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Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?

[Adam Borowski]

On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 11:36:23AM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> A case in  point is asciidoc.  It's used to generate HTML pages and 
> books.  To do books it recommends other sofftware that takes about a 
> gigabyte on disk.  Now the Docbook stuff and the LaTeX stuff are 
> necessary for producing books (i.e., printable pdf's) but if you're 
> planning on using it to generate web pages it's a real surprise 
> when all that stuff gets hauled in.

TeX does far, far more than just "books".  These days printing uses mostly
Windowsish patterns, but, especially last millenium, you couldn't get a
non-toy printer without postscript.  And in my time at the university, any
paper you read came in .ps or some TeX-related form.

On the other hand, I see the TeX world isn't anywhere as popular as it was
back in the day, so perhaps this Recommends could be downgraded.

Thus, if you believe this should be changed, the command you want is
"reportbug asciidoc", where you can try to persuade the maintainer that
TeX has became a fringe use of asciidoc.  Package maintainers (at least when
LETS-NOT-UTTER-THAT-NAMEd is not involved) tend to be reasonable people.
Alternatively, you can override this in Devuan only, but I believe trimmed
Recommends is something better done in the place packaging originates.


Meow!
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Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 01 Aug 2016 14:48:30 +0100
Rainer Weikusat  wrote:

> Daniel Reurich  writes:
> > Why are we dragging up a thread from over a year ago??
> >
> > I strongly disagree, installing "Recommends" are IMHO reasonable
> > for the common case, and that should stay the default except where
> > the user wants to maintain a really minimal system,  
> 
> The usually 'recommended' software is the zeroconf/ 'LAN party'
> networking daemon (avahi) which is almost always useless.
> 
> More generally spoken, neither Recommends: nor Suggests: declarations
> should exist to begin with: They both represent a perfectly arbitrary
> opinion of the package maintainer and it's not easily possible to
> determine what they'll end up installing or for which reasons.

Let's say Rainer is accurate in the preceding two paragraphs. In that
case, why not, instead of installing recommends or suggests, just list
them in a text documentation file suitable for conversion to
shellscript, housed in a Devuan-unique directory like /usr/share/deps
or something else.

That way, a person can look at the document, see what each recommends
brings to the table as far as enhancements for the package that was
installed, and decide. I spoze it's extra work for the packagers, but
it would really help Devuan people keep their machines clean and crisp.

And it would be unique to Devuan.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
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Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?

[Hendrik Boom]

On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 07:38:07AM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 01:55:57PM +1200, Daniel Reurich wrote:
> > Why are we dragging up a thread from over a year ago??
> > 
> > I strongly disagree, installing "Recommends" are IMHO reasonable for the
> > common case, and that should stay the default except where the user
> > wants to maintain a really minimal system, and is prepared to have to
> > install everything not an explicit hard dependency.
> 
> A thousand times this.  "Recommends" are meant for _most_ users, not for a
> minority who feels an urge to micromanage their systems.  And let's say what
> the policy says:
> 
> # `Recommends'
> # This declares a strong, but not absolute, dependency.
> #
> # The `Recommends' field should list packages that would be found
> # together with this one in all but unusual installations.
> 
> With this definition at hand, we can see why you're unhappy.
> 
> It might be that:
> * you're unusual (like, a compulsive desire to remove all perceived bloat)
> * your needs are unusual (deeply embedded, etc)
> * the Recommends is in error
> 
> If it's the last, please file a bug.  Either in Devuan, or, preferably in
> cases not related to systemd, in Debian.

A case in  point is asciidoc.  It's used to generate HTML pages and 
books.  To do books it recommends other sofftware that takes about a 
gigabyte on disk.  Now the Docbook stuff and the LaTeX stuff are 
necessary for producing books (i.e., printable pdf's) but if you're 
planning on using it to generate web pages it's a real surprise 
when all that stuff gets hauled in.

Ideally aptitude should report why a particular package is recommended.  
If that were merely part of therrecommending package's multiline blurb 
(which aptitude does display onrrquest), that would be enough for the 
intelligent user to make a decision.

-- hendrik

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Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?

[KatolaZ]

On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 04:25:35PM +0200, Jaromil wrote:

[cut]

> 
> What is feasible to do and comes out of this thread is to nurture the
> documentation about this setting and perhaps aim to add an option in
> Ascii about deactivating recommends: and suggests: . OTOH, inside
> derivatives like Devuan Minimal Live may want to implement this by
> default, but then this would mostly be Katolaz decision.
> 

Well, to be honest that's already done by default for the large
majority of the packages included in the Minimal Live images, for
obvious reasons :) 

HND

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?

[Jaromil]

On Mon, 01 Aug 2016, Rainer Weikusat wrote:

> Daniel Reurich  writes:
> > Why are we dragging up a thread from over a year ago??
> >
> > I strongly disagree, installing "Recommends" are IMHO reasonable
> > for the common case, and that should stay the default except where
> > the user wants to maintain a really minimal system,
> 
> The usually 'recommended' software is the zeroconf/ 'LAN party'
> networking daemon (avahi) which is almost always useless.
> 
> More generally spoken, neither Recommends: nor Suggests: declarations
> should exist to begin with: They both represent a perfectly arbitrary
> opinion of the package maintainer and it's not easily possible to
> determine what they'll end up installing or for which reasons.
> 
> People who are convinced that their opinions about 'sensible software
> collections' are generally valuable should create meta-packages other
> people who want to use them can then install.

I wholeheartedly agree with Reiner's interpretation and also with the
solution proposed, nevertheless we did have already this conversation
and the decision has been taken even before that, by declaring what
Devuan needs to be for its 1.0: it needs to be a Debian without
systemd, with no other surprises attached.

Everyone supporting and donating to Devuan is doing that because they
know we are doing what we declared to be doing and with great
attention to details. We are not going to change that, because it
would betray all promises and expectations on which this project is
building upon.

What is feasible to do and comes out of this thread is to nurture the
documentation about this setting and perhaps aim to add an option in
Ascii about deactivating recommends: and suggests: . OTOH, inside
derivatives like Devuan Minimal Live may want to implement this by
default, but then this would mostly be Katolaz decision.

ciao
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Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?

[hellekin]

On 08/01/2016 01:55 AM, Daniel Reurich wrote:
> 
> I think it may be useful to add a question into the installer about this
> (probably only in expert mode) rather than blindly change the current
> setting.  Where we are rebuilding packages we could certainly review and
> potentially reclassify recommends as suggests where it seems appropriate.
>

Completely agreed.  Offering the option to turn off automated
installation of recommended packages in expert mode would remind the
setting exists to people who would actually care for this kind of
details.  It makes sense to keep a system minimal, but doesn't for
people who just wants things to work out of the box.

I suggest adding a paragraph in dev1fanboy's installer guide that
clarifies what Suggests and Recommends mean, and the consequence of
turning these off or on (the guide goes as far as to suggest setting
`APT::AutoRemove::RecommendsImportant "false";`, and although it
mentions the case of `ca-certificates` it fails to provide an extensive
review of the context.)  Pointing at existing documentation in Debian or
quoting from it may be sufficient.

In general, any default changes from Debian should be well discussed and
well documented in advance.  Such changes won't happen for JESSIE anyway
since we're aiming at *continuity* with Debian Wheezy: we may go faster
(e.g., using Slim by default instead of a more expensive GDM) but not in
a different direction, IMO.  Devuan ASCII is where we can go wild, but
we won't go sneaky. :)

==
hk

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Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?

[Adam Borowski]

On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 01:55:57PM +1200, Daniel Reurich wrote:
> Why are we dragging up a thread from over a year ago??
> 
> I strongly disagree, installing "Recommends" are IMHO reasonable for the
> common case, and that should stay the default except where the user
> wants to maintain a really minimal system, and is prepared to have to
> install everything not an explicit hard dependency.

A thousand times this.  "Recommends" are meant for _most_ users, not for a
minority who feels an urge to micromanage their systems.  And let's say what
the policy says:

# `Recommends'
# This declares a strong, but not absolute, dependency.
#
# The `Recommends' field should list packages that would be found
# together with this one in all but unusual installations.

With this definition at hand, we can see why you're unhappy.

It might be that:
* you're unusual (like, a compulsive desire to remove all perceived bloat)
* your needs are unusual (deeply embedded, etc)
* the Recommends is in error

If it's the last, please file a bug.  Either in Devuan, or, preferably in
cases not related to systemd, in Debian.

Usually such bogus Recommends are an obvious fix, but there _is_ a technical
issue that can make this complex: Recommends from libraries.  The root of
that problem is, in many languages including C, having a library optional is
non-trivial.  The difficulty in doing so can range from a few lines of code
to being impossible within a reasonable amount of effort.  Thus, almost no
one bothers to, as a superfluous library is just a negligible amount of
wasted disk space.  Unless that library pulls something else, that is.

It's discussed in depth in a previous discussion:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2016/04/msg00162.html

An example:
(many metapackages)->
[R]: xfce4-power-manager (GUI for power management)
[D]: upower  (daemon that does the work)
[D]: libimobiledevice6   (a library for a minor side feature)
[R]: usbmuxd (daemon only for iPod owners)

Most of us do want xfce4-power-manager, so [R] is right.
It's just a GUI for the daemon, [D] is right.
Optional library dependency is lots of work, [D] for technical reasons.
The library is useless without its daemon, so... [D] or [R]?

My proposed fix for such cases is to forbid Recommends from libraries and
moving them to their users, so it'd be upower who decides how much it needs
usbmuxd (in this case, not at all).


So, when some Recommends offends you, please point it out.

I've attached a script (in some heathen language) that shows what
unsatisfied Recommends you have on your system.  I forgot who's the author
of the script, sorry.


Meow!
-- 
An imaginary friend squared is a real enemy.
#!/usr/bin/python
import apt
c = apt.Cache()
for pkg in c:
if pkg.installed is not None:
for rd in pkg.candidate.get_dependencies("Recommends"):
if not rd.installed_target_versions:
print pkg, rd
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Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?

[Daniel Reurich]

Hi

Why are we dragging up a thread from over a year ago??

I strongly disagree, installing "Recommends" are IMHO reasonable for the
common case, and that should stay the default except where the user
wants to maintain a really minimal system, and is prepared to have to
install everything not an explicit hard dependency.

I think it may be useful to add a question into the installer about this
(probably only in expert mode) rather then blindly change the current
setting.  Where we are rebuilding packages we could certainly review and
potentially reclassifying recommends as suggests where it seems appropriate.

The risk is that by blindly changing the current settings in regards, is
that those familiar with Debian would get a significantly different
result from what they'd expect during an install.  So I'd agree on
providing the option during installation, but I stand strongly opposed
to changing the default blindly just to suit a few power users preferences.

Regards,
Daniel.


On 31/07/16 23:47, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 00:36:22 +0200
> Franco Lanza  wrote:
> 
>> Personally on debian i was using from date
>>
>> APT:Install-Recommends "0";
>> APT:Install-Suggests "0";
>>
>> in all my install apt.conf.
>>
>> I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required
>> but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded
>> envs, but also on my desktop.
>>
>> What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?
> 
> I would be all in favour; hoping to limit the bloat, I have had for years 
> 
> # cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/40nosuggestrecommends
> Apt::Install-Suggests false;
> Apt::Install-Recommends false;
> 




-- 
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Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd.
021 797 722



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Re: [DNG] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and, "Recommends" dependency?

[aitor_czr]

Hi Nextime,

On 07/31/2016 02:00 PM, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI 
 wrote:

Franco Lanza  wrote:

>Personally on debian i was using from date
>
>APT:Install-Recommends "0";
>APT:Install-Suggests "0";
>
>in all my install apt.conf.
>
>I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required
>but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded
>envs, but also on my desktop.
>
>What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?

I would be all in favour; hoping to limit the bloat, I have had for years

# cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/40nosuggestrecommends
Apt::Install-Suggests false;
Apt::Install-Recommends false;

Cheers,
  
Ron.


This is the configuration recommended by dev1fanboy in his guide about 
how to upgrade from debian to devuan:


https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/wikis/Upgrade-to-Devuan-and-minimalism

Cheers,

  Aitor.



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Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?

[hellekin]

On 07/31/2016 02:20 PM, Paweł Cholewiński wrote:
>
> First law of software quality picture from nixcraft ..
>

Oh, they even provided a line of examples :)

BTW, I thought this suggests/recommends set to false were already agreed
upon, so +1 here.  (Sorry I didn't take the time to read the whole thread.)

==
hk


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Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?

[Paweł Cholewiński]

W dniu 31.07.2016 o 13:47, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI pisze:

On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 00:36:22 +0200
Franco Lanza  wrote:


Personally on debian i was using from date

APT:Install-Recommends "0";
APT:Install-Suggests "0";

in all my install apt.conf.

I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required
but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded
envs, but also on my desktop.

What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?


I would be all in favour; hoping to limit the bloat, I have had for years

# cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/40nosuggestrecommends
Apt::Install-Suggests false;
Apt::Install-Recommends false;

Cheers,

Ron.


First law of software quality picture from nixcraft ..
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Re: [DNG] [Dng] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and "Recommends" dependency?

[Ron]

On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 00:36:22 +0200
Franco Lanza  wrote:

> Personally on debian i was using from date
> 
> APT:Install-Recommends "0";
> APT:Install-Suggests "0";
> 
> in all my install apt.conf.
> 
> I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required
> but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded
> envs, but also on my desktop.
> 
> What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?

I would be all in favour; hoping to limit the bloat, I have had for years 

# cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/40nosuggestrecommends
Apt::Install-Suggests false;
Apt::Install-Recommends false;

Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
   They that can give up essential liberty
 to obtain a little temporary safety
 deserve neither liberty nor safety.
  -- Benjamin Franklin

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 
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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends dependency?

[Roger Leigh]

On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 07:43:26PM -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote:
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Franco Lanza [mailto:next...@nexlab.it]
  Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2015 5:36 PM
  To: dng@lists.dyne.org
  Subject: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends
  dependency?
  
  Personally on debian i was using from date
  
  APT:Install-Recommends 0;
  APT:Install-Suggests 0;
  
  in all my install apt.conf.
  
  I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required
 but
  just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded envs, but
  also on my desktop.
  
  What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?
 
 
 [T.J. ] Personally, I love the idea.  However, in certain instances, like
 -dev packages or build environments, where the recommended should really
 be followed.  I'd follow it wherever Perl or Python is involved as well,
 even if you aren't working on code, just to make sure everything works
 smoothly.

No, this is fundamentally incorrect.

Building should always be deterministic.  This means never ever using
Suggests or Recommends.  sbuild, for example, always sets
APT::Install-Recommends=false.  In addition, it will also drop
conditional dependencies so that only the first will be used, again
for determinism.

Less strict behaviour is fine when installing packages for a developer
to use on their development machine, but for automated/final builds
for deployment elsewhere, such as Debian package building, it's
essential that the necessary packages are completely and
unambiguously specified with plain Depends.


Regards,
Roger

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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends dependency?

[KatolaZ]

On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 09:40:41PM -1000, Joel Roth wrote:

[cut]

 
 Note that for a minimal dependencies default, the options to
 apt-get are not ideal. We have these two options related to
 the dependency graph.
 
--no-install-recommends
Do not consider recommended packages as a dependency for 
 installing.
Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends.
 
--install-suggests
Consider suggested packages as a dependency for installing.
Configuration Item: APT::Install-Suggests.
 
 Looks like we need to add this:
 
--install-recommends
Consider recommended packages as a dependency for installing.
Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends.
 

AFAIR the default policy in Debian (up to wheezy) was to have
Recommends installed, but not Suggests. This seems a sensible strategy
in many cases, since usually Recommends are packages which are
actually *necessary* to some functionality of a package (and many
users would be disappointed in discovering that most of the things
that are just there automagically when you apt-get install
something, won't be there if you don't bring in Recomennds). But that
has not been the policy of Ubuntu (at least in the very few early
releases), which had --install-suggests on by default (I don't know
what happend to Ubuntu after Hoary, to be honest ;))

Anyway, I second the addition of an explicit --install-recommends,
which would be more clear that --no-install-recommends=no

My2Cents

KatolaZ

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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends dependency?

[Joel Roth]

On Sat, Apr 04, 2015 at 08:18:29AM +0100, KatolaZ wrote:
 On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 12:36:22AM +0200, Franco Lanza wrote:
  Personally on debian i was using from date
  
  APT:Install-Recommends 0;
  APT:Install-Suggests 0;
  
  in all my install apt.conf.
  
  I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required
  but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded
  envs, but also on my desktop.
  
  What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?
  
 
 Hi, 
 
 please go on. Always hated to have too much garbage installed.


Note that for a minimal dependencies default, the options to
apt-get are not ideal. We have these two options related to
the dependency graph.

   --no-install-recommends
   Do not consider recommended packages as a dependency for installing.
   Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends.

   --install-suggests
   Consider suggested packages as a dependency for installing.
   Configuration Item: APT::Install-Suggests.

Looks like we need to add this:

   --install-recommends
   Consider recommended packages as a dependency for installing.
   Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends.

cheers,

Joel
 
 HND
 
 KatolaZ
 
 
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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends dependency?

[KatolaZ]

On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 12:36:22AM +0200, Franco Lanza wrote:
 Personally on debian i was using from date
 
 APT:Install-Recommends 0;
 APT:Install-Suggests 0;
 
 in all my install apt.conf.
 
 I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required
 but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded
 envs, but also on my desktop.
 
 What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?
 

Hi, 

please go on. Always hated to have too much garbage installed.

HND

KatolaZ


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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends dependency?

[Joerg Reisenweber]

On Fri 03 April 2015 21:40:41 Joel Roth wrote:
 On Sat, Apr 04, 2015 at 08:18:29AM +0100, KatolaZ wrote:
  On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 12:36:22AM +0200, Franco Lanza wrote:
   Personally on debian i was using from date
   
   APT:Install-Recommends 0;
   APT:Install-Suggests 0;
   
   in all my install apt.conf.
   
   I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required
   but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded
   envs, but also on my desktop.
   
   What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?
  
  Hi,
  
  please go on. Always hated to have too much garbage installed.
 
 Note that for a minimal dependencies default, the options to
 apt-get are not ideal. We have these two options related to
 the dependency graph.
 
--no-install-recommends
Do not consider recommended packages as a dependency for
 installing. Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends.
 
--install-suggests
Consider suggested packages as a dependency for installing.
Configuration Item: APT::Install-Suggests.
 
 Looks like we need to add this:
 
--install-recommends
Consider recommended packages as a dependency for installing.
Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends.
 

[quote man apt-get]
OPTIONS
   All command line options may be set using the configuration file, the 
   descriptions indicate the configuration option to set. For boolean 
   options you can override the config file by using something 
   **like -f-,--no-f, -f=no or several other variations.**

   --no-install-recommends
  Do not consider recommended packages as a dependency for installing. 
 Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends.
[/quote]

So maybe 
  --no-install-recommends=no 
or
  --install-recommends
or
  --no-no-install-recommends


actually I tested apt-get --install-recommends ( -s install) ...` and it seems 
to work just fine. So probablyI misunderstood the we need to add which was 
meant as add this parameter to the command issued rather than add this 
option to apt-get option parser / valid syntax


/j


(sorry Joel for previous direct mail)

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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends dependency?

[Anto]

On 04/04/15 09:40, Joel Roth wrote:

Note that for a minimal dependencies default, the options to
apt-get are not ideal. We have these two options related to
the dependency graph.

--no-install-recommends
Do not consider recommended packages as a dependency for installing.
Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends.

--install-suggests
Consider suggested packages as a dependency for installing.
Configuration Item: APT::Install-Suggests.

Looks like we need to add this:

--install-recommends
Consider recommended packages as a dependency for installing.
Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends.

cheers,

Joel



Hello Joel,

As others, I prefer to have control over the packages that I am 
installing, so apt-get only pulls the necessary packages related to the 
one I am installing instead of pulling everything else which I don't need.


For desktops, as I mentioned previously, I have to be more careful in 
installing packages without the Recommended and Suggested packages 
(my default setting). I usually take a note on the list of Recommended 
and Suggested packages. If something didn't work properly, I install 
the Recommended packages first from the list. If that still didn't 
work, I install Suggested packages. If that also didn't work, I purge 
all of those packages and search for other alternatives :)


Cheers,

Anto

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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends dependency?

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 11:36 PM, Franco Lanza next...@nexlab.it wrote:
 Personally on debian i was using from date

 APT:Install-Recommends 0;
 APT:Install-Suggests 0;

+1
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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends dependency?

[Go Linux]

On Fri, 4/3/15, Anto arya...@chello.at wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends 
dependency?
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Friday, April 3, 2015, 11:28 AM

On 03/04/15 01:53, hellekin wrote:
 Oh, did I just announce the Devuan forum?

You did! And I just registered myself there.

The login form seems to support the synchronisation with Gitlab account,
which I also already registered a few months back. But I got nginx 404
error when I clicked on with Gitlab.



Yes, hellekin put in a monumental effort to get the forum up and running.  
Kudos to him for his contribution!  Unfortunately, the icon rendering is locked 
in to the font. I posted about this over at Mozillazine - 
http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?f=7t=2925899  patrickjdempsey's 
statement sums up the problem nicely:

At this time there is no way to force websites to use a specific font and also 
have these kinds of icons appear. I've personally been attempting to find a way 
to make a CSS hack for that and it appears that the way that web fonts have 
been implemented is so incredibly stupid and shortsighted that it's not 
possible to work around. I'm not even sure who to blame for the stupidity of 
the implementation... it's just bad all around.

Ironic that a distribution which is based on the user's freedom to choose, 
would utilize a font that denies a user the option to chose their preferred 
font on the web.  I'm not happy about this and It will probably keep me from 
participating in the forum . . .

golinux


 
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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends dependency?

[Anto]

On 03/04/15 00:36, Franco Lanza wrote:

Personally on debian i was using from date

APT:Install-Recommends 0;
APT:Install-Suggests 0;

in all my install apt.conf.

I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required
but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded
envs, but also on my desktop.

What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?


Hello Franco,

I have been using this exact same setting for years in apt.conf.d folder 
of my servers and desktops. So I really support this idea. It is very 
safe and good setting especially for servers, in my opinion.


However, on my desktops sometime I have to be more careful to check the 
Suggested and Recommended packages when installing something as I 
had some issues because of that setting. I don't remember exactly which 
packages experience the issues, but the most recent issue that I had was 
on parole or possibly on xfce4-mixer where I could not hear mp3 music on 
my USB headset, only on my PC speaker. It was fixed after I installed 
audacious with all its Suggested and Recommended packages. I didn't 
try further to find out which packages are actually required by parole 
as I only wanted to hear music that night :)


Cheers,

Anto

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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends dependency?

[Jude Nelson]

I'm all for it.  If there are a set of packages that usually get installed
together, we can create a metapackage for them.

-Jude

On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 6:36 PM, Franco Lanza next...@nexlab.it wrote:

 Personally on debian i was using from date

 APT:Install-Recommends 0;
 APT:Install-Suggests 0;

 in all my install apt.conf.

 I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required
 but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded
 envs, but also on my desktop.

 What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?



 --

 Franco (nextime) Lanza
 Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy
 SIP://c...@casa.nexlab.it
 web: http://www.nexlab.net

 NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org
 you can download my public key at:
 http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers
 Key ID = D6132D50
 Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7  4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50
 ---
 echo
 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq
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[Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends dependency?

[Franco Lanza]

Personally on debian i was using from date

APT:Install-Recommends 0;
APT:Install-Suggests 0;

in all my install apt.conf.

I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required
but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded
envs, but also on my desktop.

What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?



-- 

Franco (nextime) Lanza
Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy
SIP://c...@casa.nexlab.it
web: http://www.nexlab.net

NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org
you can download my public key at:
http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers
Key ID = D6132D50
Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7  4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50
---
echo 
16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq
 | dc
---



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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends dependency?

[T.J. Duchene]

 -Original Message-
 From: Franco Lanza [mailto:next...@nexlab.it]
 Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2015 5:36 PM
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Subject: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends
 dependency?
 
 Personally on debian i was using from date
 
 APT:Install-Recommends 0;
 APT:Install-Suggests 0;
 
 in all my install apt.conf.
 
 I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required
but
 just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded envs, but
 also on my desktop.
 
 What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?


[T.J. ] Personally, I love the idea.  However, in certain instances, like
-dev packages or build environments, where the recommended should really
be followed.  I'd follow it wherever Perl or Python is involved as well,
even if you aren't working on code, just to make sure everything works
smoothly.



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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends dependency?

[hellekin]

On 04/02/2015 07:36 PM, Franco Lanza wrote:
 Personally on debian i was using from date
 
 APT:Install-Recommends 0;
 APT:Install-Suggests 0;
 
 What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?

*** +1.  I'm all for minimalism in Devuan, and encouraging people to use
Blends for extended setups.

Maybe there should be a meta-package that people who expect the system
to suck in everything can install to get back the greedy experience.  In
any case, this should be documented.

In the upcoming https://talk.devuan.org/ there's a topic to document and
discuss the differences between Jessie the cowgirl and Jessie the minor
planet.  Oh, did I just announce the Devuan forum?

==
hk

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