Re: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
Steve Litt: On Thu, 19 Feb 2015 17:28:58 +0100 (CET) k...@aspodata.se wrote: At second thought, I'll first try to factor out udev completely -- or rather -- make the system to be *dev agnostic. Karl, please document your experiment so that some of us can follow in your footsteps. I have a test machine currently running gentoo and an a minimal wheezy that I'll experiement with. A no udev box isn't pertinent to Devuan, but it sure as heck is pertinent to me, and probably you and I aren't alone. I think that devuan can profit from beeing able to switch to e.g. vdev, and Luke shown us that he was able to run X without udev. Soo, the usual claim of dependancy on udev is false. But I feel this is strange, why is that udev is forced upon you, why isn't it available to you at your own decision. And why are people saying that you can't have a useful system without it, and actually turning a deaf ear towards any argumentation against ? One problem with udev as I see it, is that you can't remove it without rebooting from some other media, you're stuck with it. How do you debug a thing like that ? Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
Isaac Dunham (Mon, 16 Feb 2015 07:06:59):
On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 08:44:22PM +, Luke Leighton wrote:
...
Thanks to your write-up, I've gotten Xorg working sans udev
(actually, simulated via overmounting with tmpfs and running mdev).
FYI, *this* was why I included devinfo in libsysdev:
for d in /dev/input/*; do DEV=`devinfo $d`; [ -e $DEV/name ] { echo
$d; cat $DEV/name; } ; done
Nice script, I saved that, thanks.
Regards,
/Karl Hammar
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Re: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
Dragan FOSS: Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 16:27:55 + From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton l...@lkcl.net To: dng@lists.dyne.org Subject: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop Message-ID: CAPweEDzEqvvwy=3miokFo9Co_T4k+BzAFn=A=fa0aurpm1j...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 the reason why i am informing you of this is as encouragement so that you know it *can be done*. i would be most grateful therefore if you could make it much more convenient for me to be able to do this, whilst still keeping all the debian, TDE and deb-multimedia repositories in /etc/apt/sources.list that i have today, by keeping the devuan project strictly focussed on providing alternative packages instead of polarising the GNU/Linux community even further than pottering has already done (by devuan not creating an ubuntu-style total distro fork). This IS already done :) - [root@trios][/home/dragan/Desktop]# inxi -r Repos: Active apt sources in file: /etc/apt/sources.list deb http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie main contrib non-free deb-src http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie main contrib non-free deb http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main contrib non-free deb-src http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main contrib non-free deb http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie-updates main contrib non-free deb-src http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie-updates main contrib non-free deb http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie-backports main contrib non-free deb-src http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie-backports main contrib non-free Active apt sources in file: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/trios.list deb http://mirror.org.rs/trios/ mia main non-systemd-testing zfs Then that would be a better starting place. Thoose two seems to be the relevant links: http://mirror.org.rs/trios/pool/non-systemd/ http://mirror.org.rs/trios/pool/non-systemd-testing/ Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
Luke Leighton l...@lkcl.net: karl at aspodata.se writes: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton lkcl at lkcl.net: http://lkcl.net/reports/removing_systemd_from_debian/ I'll try that. awesome. if you'd like to keep in touch (through this list if that's ok with the dng team?) i can perhaps advise if you get stuck. it would be interesting also to know what packages you have that are dependent on libsystemd0. for example, i removed cups-daemon, but you might need it. I don't really want cups. * disabling udev * returning to manual keyboard and mouse configuration in Xorg * adding a huge number of manual entries to /etc/modules I'm fine with that, and I compiles my own kernels. great. if you've dealt with linux for a long time you probably remember what it was like to edit xorg.conf, or, maybe, like me, you have sections that are still there and just had to update them :) Yes. also i feel that anyone who has dealt with embedded systems such as openembedded, opie/familiar and so on, this really should not be hard for them, either. No. /// At second thought, I'll first try to factor out udev completely -- or rather -- make the system to be *dev agnostic. Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
Luke Leighton: karl please refresh and double-check the update for pulseaudio, I don't need pulseaudio, sorry. Regards, /Karl Hammar --- Aspö Data Lilla Aspö 148 S-742 94 Östhammar Sweden +46 173 140 57 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
On Thu, 19 Feb 2015 17:28:58 +0100 (CET) k...@aspodata.se wrote: At second thought, I'll first try to factor out udev completely -- or rather -- make the system to be *dev agnostic. Karl, please document your experiment so that some of us can follow in your footsteps. A no udev box isn't pertinent to Devuan, but it sure as heck is pertinent to me, and probably you and I aren't alone. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
On 15 February 2015 17:49:54 GMT+00:00, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton l...@lkcl.net wrote: http://slashdot.org/submission/4203115/removing-libsystemd0-from-a-live-running-debian-system if anyone would like to help get the word out, as a way to actively engage more developers and end-users to give them their right to choose what software to run, please do consider hitting the + button on the above submission. done! also fine you keep threads about this documentation and experiments on this list we may all learn more about it ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
Dragan FOSS dragan.foss at gmx.com writes: i would be most grateful therefore if you could make it much more convenient for me to be able to do this, whilst still keeping all the debian, TDE and deb-multimedia repositories in /etc/apt/sources.list that i have today, by keeping the devuan project strictly focussed on providing alternative packages instead of polarising the GNU/Linux community even further than pottering has already done (by devuan not creating an ubuntu-style total distro fork). This IS already done :) good! i guess you may have seen that i am advocating that the devuan team keep it this way, and do not attempt - with the limited resources that you have - to extend to an ubuntu-style fork. it will overwhelm you, as well as make it harder for people to consider trusting devuan, harder for them to consider returning to debian, and more besides - all of it bad. l. - [root at trios][/home/dragan/Desktop]# inxi -r Repos: Active apt sources in file: /etc/apt/sources.list ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 11:52 PM, Isaac Dunham ibid...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 11:28:38PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: And I've rebuilt util-linux and removed libsystemd0 already. ohh, you are so lucky! can i add you to the list of successes? Sure, if you want to keep count. thanks. and also help people narrow down easier ways to achieve removal of libsystemd0 Does alsactl init do anything for you, by some chance? I just spent a day figuring out that that was what I needed to do, after I realized I didn't have sound on a several month old system. doh! well it's related to qjackctl - i have a particularly complex audio setup. bypassing jackd and asking vlc to go directly to the alsa hardware works fine. ... i'll work it out :) l. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 11:07 PM, Isaac Dunham ibid...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 05:49:54PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: http://slashdot.org/submission/4203115/removing-libsystemd0-from-a-live-running-debian-system if anyone would like to help get the word out, as a way to actively engage more developers and end-users to give them their right to choose what software to run, please do consider hitting the + button on the above submission. Done, I think. (I use NoScript, so...I guess the + button sticking means it worked...) it's up and happily collecting comments. Reading it I noticed dbus, pulseaudio, policykit-1 - I only recompiled util-linux. Checked in Aptitude, and I don't have dbus installed. (I have libdbus installed, but not the dbus daemon, pulse, or policykit.) .. you are lucky :) i run a wide range of software as part of my business so i have quite a bit more around. boot system into non-functional state due to udev not working? Huh? udev works fine for me (Debian Jessie). bizarre! can you remember if, as a result of recompiling and installing the util-linux packages, initrds were regenerated at all? (it's done in a postinst hook somewhere) And I've rebuilt util-linux and removed libsystemd0 already. ohh, you are so lucky! can i add you to the list of successes? Or are you trying to remove udev as well? no i'm not - it just... the entire system froze on me at checking the udev entries. but, at the time, i didn't have makedev installed. well... there may be hope then that i can actually get udev back up and running. this would be good as sound is not coming out of the speakers at the moment. volume's set, etc. etc. - just no sound. l. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2015 16:27:55 + From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton l...@lkcl.net To: dng@lists.dyne.org Subject: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop Message-ID: CAPweEDzEqvvwy=3miokFo9Co_T4k+BzAFn=A=fa0aurpm1j...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 the reason why i am informing you of this is as encouragement so that you know it *can be done*. i would be most grateful therefore if you could make it much more convenient for me to be able to do this, whilst still keeping all the debian, TDE and deb-multimedia repositories in /etc/apt/sources.list that i have today, by keeping the devuan project strictly focussed on providing alternative packages instead of polarising the GNU/Linux community even further than pottering has already done (by devuan not creating an ubuntu-style total distro fork). This IS already done :) - [root@trios][/home/dragan/Desktop]# inxi -r Repos: Active apt sources in file: /etc/apt/sources.list deb http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie main contrib non-free deb-src http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie main contrib non-free deb http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main contrib non-free deb-src http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main contrib non-free deb http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie-updates main contrib non-free deb-src http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie-updates main contrib non-free deb http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie-backports main contrib non-free deb-src http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie-backports main contrib non-free Active apt sources in file: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/trios.list deb http://mirror.org.rs/trios/ mia main non-systemd-testing zfs [root@trios][/home/dragan/Desktop]# apt-cache policy systemd systemd: Installed: (none) Candidate: (none) Package pin: (not found) Version table: 215-11 -1 500 http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie/main amd64 Packages [root@trios][/home/dragan/Desktop]# apt-cache policy libsystemd0 libsystemd0: Installed: (none) Candidate: (none) Package pin: (not found) Version table: 215-11 -1 500 http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie/main amd64 Packages [root@trios][/home/dragan/Desktop]# apt-cache policy lightdm lightdm: Installed: 1.10.3-3 Candidate: 1.10.3-3 Version table: *** 1.10.3-3 0 500 http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie/main amd64 Packages 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status [root@trios][/home/dragan/Desktop]# apt-cache policy xfce4 xfce4: Installed: 4.10.1 Candidate: 4.10.1 Version table: *** 4.10.1 0 500 http://http.debian.net/debian/ jessie/main amd64 Packages 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status [root@trios][/home/dragan/Desktop]# apt-cache policy skype skype:i386: Installed: 4.3.0.37-1 Candidate: 4.3.0.37-1 Version table: *** 4.3.0.37-1 0 1001 http://mirror.org.rs/trios/ mia/main i386 Packages 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status [root@trios][/home/dragan/Desktop]# -- https://foss.rs/threads/trios-mia-openrc-zfs-rc1.3057 DL link: http://mirror.org.rs/image/TRIOS-Mia-RC1-Build_2015-01-08.iso ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
Gravis ring3k at adaptivetime.com writes: * returning to manual keyboard and mouse configuration in Xorg where did it move to before? i never removed the manual keyboard and mouse configuration options that i had installed years back. however as xorg has grown more features, one of them included automatic udev device detection, meaning that you *could* run with a completely blank (or even missing) xorg.conf. however, many people did not remove their old (manual) keyboard and mouse configuration sections, so what the xorg team did was to add an entry (which defaults to on) Use auto configuration. when this flag is set, any entries which use kbd or mouse drivers are COMPLETELY IGNORED. unfortunately, then, if you disable udev (which i did), xorg doesn't detect a mouse or keyboard - or in fact *ANY* input device - AT ALL. so, as documented in the document i wrote, you have to (a) set a flag to tell xorg to stop using auto-device detection and (b) return to the situation that everyone put up with before auto-device detection support was added. personally i see this as being no hardship at all. within hours i have retrained my hands to sit further away from the now completely hyper-sensitive trackpad that activates without my consent to move the cursor to completely random positions on screen. if it really annoys me too much i will simply rmmod bcm5974. problem solved :) in fact, why don't i do that right now :) l. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] successfully manually removing systemd and libsystemd0 from debian and still maintaining a working desktop
On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 08:44:22PM +, Luke Leighton wrote:
Gravis ring3k at adaptivetime.com writes:
* returning to manual keyboard and mouse configuration in Xorg
where did it move to before?
i never removed the manual keyboard and mouse configuration
options that i had installed years back. however as xorg has
grown more features, one of them included automatic udev
device detection, meaning that you *could* run with a
completely blank (or even missing) xorg.conf.
however, many people did not remove their old (manual) keyboard
and mouse configuration sections, so what the xorg team did was
to add an entry (which defaults to on) Use auto configuration.
when this flag is set, any entries which use kbd or mouse drivers
are COMPLETELY IGNORED.
unfortunately, then, if you disable udev (which i did), xorg
doesn't detect a mouse or keyboard - or in fact *ANY* input
device - AT ALL.
so, as documented in the document i wrote, you have to (a)
set a flag to tell xorg to stop using auto-device detection
and (b) return to the situation that everyone put up with
before auto-device detection support was added.
Thanks to your write-up, I've gotten Xorg working sans udev
(actually, simulated via overmounting with tmpfs and running mdev).
FYI, *this* was why I included devinfo in libsysdev:
for d in /dev/input/*; do DEV=`devinfo $d`; [ -e $DEV/name ] { echo $d;
cat $DEV/name; } ; done
/dev/input/event0
AT Translated Set 2 keyboard
/dev/input/event1
Video Bus
/dev/input/event10
SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad
/dev/input/event2
Power Button
/dev/input/event3
Lid Switch
/dev/input/event4
Sleep Button
/dev/input/event5
Power Button
/dev/input/event6
HDA Digital PCBeep
/dev/input/event7
HDA Intel Mic
/dev/input/event8
HDA Intel Headphone
/dev/input/event9
Acer Crystal Eye webcam
/dev/input/mouse0
SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad
It makes it a whole lot simpler when you don't have to guess what a
device is.
The trick is that input devices have a description at
/sys/dev/char/major:minor/device/name
HTH,
Isaac Dunham
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