Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 13:44:01 +0200, Jaromil wrote in message <20160712114401.GA27051@reflex>: > On Fri, 08 Jul 2016, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > ..this clearly is where we could have used a http://groklaw.net/ > > style website. > > Groklaw was great not because of the website, but because of the > editorial work PJ put into it and because of the community it > gathered. the infrastructure can be minimal, is the people that > counts, IMHO ..thank you, I was only a tiny wee part of this city-size community. :o) > said that, as much as I'd like some more exposure for the dangers that > systemd is creating for many ICT practitioners, I would also like to > stop bashing an individual whose social and technical limits are very > evident to the point he cannot be the only cause of this avalanche. ..aye, if this is PJ, Edward Snowdon, Chelsea Manning or somebody with that kinda quality spine, I'm going back to systemd Debian. Now, if you wanna try convince me that kinda spine is behind systemd, beware that your energy etc resources would be better spent fixing the climate first, the global climate is _much_ easier to fix than my "belief" on systemd. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On Fri, 08 Jul 2016, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > ..this clearly is where we could have used a http://groklaw.net/ > style website. Groklaw was great not because of the website, but because of the editorial work PJ put into it and because of the community it gathered. the infrastructure can be minimal, is the people that counts, IMHO said that, as much as I'd like some more exposure for the dangers that systemd is creating for many ICT practitioners, I would also like to stop bashing an individual whose social and technical limits are very evident to the point he cannot be the only cause of this avalanche. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 16:00:55 -0400 Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 12:33:43PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > > > I don't use Slackware because their package manager won't figure out > > dependencies for me, causing me to need 10x the time to install some > > things (and I install a lot of stuff --- did I ever mention I write > > books for a living?). > > I've noticed the books you mention inn your signature. > But now that you appear to write books on Linux, may I ask what > software you use to do it? The only book I write about Linux is a "Learn Vim Tonight", and I don't recommend it. You can find better Vim books. I recommend my books on troubleshooting, Rapid Learning, and human performance. In answer to your second question, my 1990 "Troubleshooting: Tools, Tips and Techniques" was written with WordPerfect 5.1. 1999 "Rapid Learning: Secret Weapon of the Successful Technologist" was written with MS Word (so sue me). My newest book, "Troubleshooting: Why Bother" was written in Bluefish and then converted to ePub via some Python programs I wrote. The other 7 were written in LyX. I've done some work on a text based native format to do the simpler stuff that LyX does, but do it in a write once, export everywhere manner. Sooner or later I'll switch my authoring over to that format. The LyX project has dragged their feet maddeningly on a real, semantic, Xhtml export that can be used to make real ePub, as opposed to the pidgeon-ePub that fails validation tests and renders only on a small fraction of devices. If an author is sure that he'll never need anything else but PDF output, LyX is by far the best. If the author might need ePub or other output formats, keep in touch with me. I think I answered your question, but if not, please ask again. SteveT Steve Litt July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
Am Montag, 11. Juli 2016 schrieb emnin...@riseup.net: > 1] I remember a novel of H. P. Lovecraft where there is a monster, > which, once it'll be awaken it would engulf all the world. I believe to > remember its name was jabbawagga, but it's only a vague memory ... ;) Cthulhu :-) -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
Hi Arnt! Am Mon, 11 Jul 2016 19:07:56 + schrieb Arnt Karlsen : > > > > I don't use Slackware because their package manager won't figure out > > dependencies for me, causing me to need 10x the time to install some > > things (and I install a lot of stuff --- did I ever mention I write > > books for a living?). > > ..so which do you prefer, Slackware wee mess, > or being at the mercy of Poettering & Co? > > > On the other hand, a lot of people I respect (including emninger) > > love Slackware specifically because it leaves figuring dependencies > > to the user, leading to a relatively dependency-lean environment. > > ..aye, means you will have to do a _predictable_ wee bit more. > > ..can we (Devuan) lean on Slackware and alien conversion, > at least as a backup plan B to the potential Debian trap? > Recently, i followed, as a silent lurker, a - german - dispute on systemd, where frequently intervened Martin Vaeth, who is - IMHO - a very reasonable person (author of several open-rc scripts for Gentoo. In my poor - and non technical -words, he sustained, that, considering the tendency of the systemd people to engulf more and more essential/critical processes of the basic boot-up of linux, in a near future only a distro like gentoo would have a chance to survive, since its process of building (emerge) allows, to avoid the systemd jabbawagga [1]. When i read that, i thought, the same should go for slackware - in the linux ecosystem (given that they resist to the systemd temptation, which seems to be the case ... (?) 1] I remember a novel of H. P. Lovecraft where there is a monster, which, once it'll be awaken it would engulf all the world. I believe to remember its name was jabbawagga, but it's only a vague memory ... ;) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 12:33:43PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > I don't use Slackware because their package manager won't figure out > dependencies for me, causing me to need 10x the time to install some > things (and I install a lot of stuff --- did I ever mention I write > books for a living?). I've noticed the books you mention inn your signature. But now that you appear to write books on Linux, may I ask what software you use to do it? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 20:32:04 +0200 Arnt Karlsen wrote: > On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 12:33:43 -0400, Steve wrote in message > <20160711123343.5c936...@mydesk.domain.cxm>: > > > On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 09:00:02 +0200 > > wrote: > > > > > Am Sun, 10 Jul 2016 08:47:57 + > > > schrieb Joel Roth : > > > > > > > What's your experience with slackware and its > > > > dependency/packaging system? > > > > > > Generally, i like it. It has way less dependencies compared to > > > debian. And in the end it's quite well manageable. > > > > I don't use Slackware because their package manager won't figure out > > dependencies for me, causing me to need 10x the time to install some > > things (and I install a lot of stuff --- did I ever mention I write > > books for a living?). > > ..so which do you prefer, Slackware wee mess, > or being at the mercy of Poettering & Co? My research has found the following systemd-free systems capable of running my business: * Devuan * Void * PC-BSD * Funtoo There are probably many others, but those four definitely can run my business. Devuan, Void and Funtoo have an expressed policy of "never systemd". SteveT Steve Litt July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 12:33:43 -0400, Steve wrote in message <20160711123343.5c936...@mydesk.domain.cxm>: > On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 09:00:02 +0200 > wrote: > > > Am Sun, 10 Jul 2016 08:47:57 + > > schrieb Joel Roth : > > > > > What's your experience with slackware and its > > > dependency/packaging system? > > > > Generally, i like it. It has way less dependencies compared to > > debian. And in the end it's quite well manageable. > > I don't use Slackware because their package manager won't figure out > dependencies for me, causing me to need 10x the time to install some > things (and I install a lot of stuff --- did I ever mention I write > books for a living?). ..so which do you prefer, Slackware wee mess, or being at the mercy of Poettering & Co? > On the other hand, a lot of people I respect (including emninger) love > Slackware specifically because it leaves figuring dependencies to the > user, leading to a relatively dependency-lean environment. ..aye, means you will have to do a _predictable_ wee bit more. ..can we (Devuan) lean on Slackware and alien conversion, at least as a backup plan B to the potential Debian trap? -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 09:00:02 +0200 wrote: > Am Sun, 10 Jul 2016 08:47:57 + > schrieb Joel Roth : > > > What's your experience with slackware and its > > dependency/packaging system? > > Generally, i like it. It has way less dependencies compared to debian. > And in the end it's quite well manageable. I don't use Slackware because their package manager won't figure out dependencies for me, causing me to need 10x the time to install some things (and I install a lot of stuff --- did I ever mention I write books for a living?). On the other hand, a lot of people I respect (including emninger) love Slackware specifically because it leaves figuring dependencies to the user, leading to a relatively dependency-lean environment. SteveT Steve Litt July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
Am Sun, 10 Jul 2016 08:47:57 + schrieb Joel Roth : > What's your experience with slackware and its > dependency/packaging system? Generally, i like it. It has way less dependencies compared to debian. And in the end it's quite well manageable. Only, it's really so slow as for developping ... But keep in mind, i'm speaking from a user's point of view, not the admin's one ;) I pointed out the new version, because i was happy to see, that slackware apparently won't go systemd. You, know, in the past there were rumours about slackware to go systemd too - and some quoted, that, if at all, Volkerding would be able to implement a somehow "sane" systemd. Since they quoted explicitely in the infos about the new release to be *systemd-free* i think/hope, for the moment and the next future that's no longer an option they are reflecting. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
emnin...@riseup.net wrote: > Am Sat, 09 Jul 2016 08:54:31 + > schrieb Steve Litt : > > > No seriously, a lot of developers aren't jumping on the bandwagon. > > Witness Samba retaining their --without-systemd compile flag. Observe > > Funtoo and Void both saying "systemd never!" Alpine forgot to switch > > to systemd, as did quite a few others. > > I'd like to underline the recent slackware release (14.2) explicitely > is systemd free. What's your experience with slackware and its dependency/packaging system? -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
Am Sat, 09 Jul 2016 08:54:31 + schrieb Steve Litt : > No seriously, a lot of developers aren't jumping on the bandwagon. > Witness Samba retaining their --without-systemd compile flag. Observe > Funtoo and Void both saying "systemd never!" Alpine forgot to switch > to systemd, as did quite a few others. I'd like to underline the recent slackware release (14.2) explicitely is systemd free. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 12:27:24 -0400, Steve wrote in message <20160708122724.51ece...@mydesk.domain.cxm>: > On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 16:34:27 +0900 > Simon Walter wrote: > > > Absolutely. Lennart's attitude of "it's free, so don't complain" > > I'm going to go to the lake nearest Lennart's house, and dump a ton of > mercury into it. When he complains, I'll say "it's free, so don't > complain". ..sadly, that would make you a criminal. I'd rather see you pipe water into his home from Flint, Michigan under trade deals like the TPP. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 21:40:03 +0900 Simon Walter wrote: > Totally agree and am very thankful for the community, but so far, > everyone that I know of, except for this group here, has bowed to > Lennart's (and Red Hat's) "amazing wisdom." > > The image I get from the web is that most developers are oh so happy > to jump on the systemd bandwagon. Please tell me I am wrong. You're wrong. No seriously, a lot of developers aren't jumping on the bandwagon. Witness Samba retaining their --without-systemd compile flag. Observe Funtoo and Void both saying "systemd never!" Alpine forgot to switch to systemd, as did quite a few others. And of course there's Devuan, who is thumbing their nose at systemd (and therefore at Redhat), and surviving quite well. The world sees this, and almost two years after Debian's capitulation, the world is still asking "what's wrong with systemd?" Redhat wants to consolidate their gains and move on, the community won't let it. SteveT Steve Litt July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 16:34:27 +0900 Simon Walter wrote: > Absolutely. Lennart's attitude of "it's free, so don't complain" I'm going to go to the lake nearest Lennart's house, and dump a ton of mercury into it. When he complains, I'll say "it's free, so don't complain". SteveT Steve Litt July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 02:14:44 +0200 wrote: > Am Thu, 07 Jul 2016 12:00:02 + > schrieb Steve Litt : > > Hi Steve! > > > The whole systemd thing is one big propaganda war. It's not about > > tech. Saying systemd is about tech is like saying a Molotov Cocktail > > is about building construction. > > > > Anyway, this video is one of the best weapons our side has in the > > propaganda war. > > After having read lots of pages about systemd and the controverse > debate about, i (as a non-technical person) tend to think, that > systemd is not bad, but fully functional: I'll respond do the preceding later in the email... > Only, it's not an init system, or better: it's not in the first place > an init system but a funnel to fill into the RedHat channels as much > as possible of the man power and intelligence of the linux comunity. Pre-cisely! > If they want or not, if&when systemd becomes un-avoidable they will > (have to) work for RedHat, and they will do that "for free" (as the > hooligan esults in the end of the video). No way out ... > > I cannot judge if that will happen effectively, but seems clear to me > the strategy (and the debian responsibles effectively were dull enough > to do what a famous german writer expressed: "Nur die dümmsten Kälber, > wählen ihre Schlächter selber" - something like: Only the most stupid > calves go to the butcher voluntarily). Yes! About systemd not being bad and being functional... One of the systemd weenies' top ten arguments is "it works just fine, what's your problem?" OK, fine, fer sure, fer sure. Yeah, my Ubuntu 16.04 LTS boots just fine with systemd. But consider that to keep systemd operating correctly, Red Hat's paying a crew of programmers to maintain it full time. It wouldn't surprise me if they're paying a million dollars a year to developers to develop and maintain systemd. So consider this: What happens when they stop paying all this money? Who will step up and maintain the mess? Inits like s6, Epoch and runit are simple, because each was created by a single person in his/her spare time. Therefore, they're maintainable by a single person in his/her spare time. If Laurent Bercot, Subsentient or Gerrit Pape, respectively, were to be run over by a truck tomorrow, lots of people are capbable of stepping up and taking over maintainership of their already stable programs. Systemd, not so much. SteveT Steve Litt July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On 07/08/2016 05:01 PM, KatolaZ wrote: On Fri, Jul 08, 2016 at 04:34:27PM +0900, Simon Walter wrote: On 07/08/2016 09:23 AM, Hughe Chung wrote: Who was the organizer of the conference? How they allowed frequent interruption by the idiot during the presentation? It was a real video footage. A drunken idiot went to the stage at the end of presentation carrying a bear bottle on one hand. I posted the video link to other FOSS forum. Action outweighs thousands words of the person. The time will tell how much damage would systemd cause on FOSS ecosphere overall. Empty promises of systemd. Absolutely. Lennart's attitude of "it's free, so don't complain" and "no one is forcing you to use it" is deceptive. If I make a calculator and release it under an open source license, I might be able to use that line. You can't have that attitude when you are making (what should be) inter-operable components of an operating system. He continually commits logical fallacies and says "You should know..." He seems very snobby. The beer part was over the top. They should have never given him a microphone. He's obviously a bully and therefore insecure. He has something to prove. You are making a simplifying assumption here, which might somehow affect the conclusions. Namely, that they are interested in making "interoperable components", which is clearly not the case, since the usual answer you get from that crew is "won't fix" and "it's your software and your problem, not mine". Yes, you're right. It is clearly not the case, indeed. However, I think, in his own mind, Lennart thinks he is doing the world a favor and we should be grateful for his works of wonder. He probably believes his system is highly interoperable. Of course, we, as lowly peons, need to make sure to conform with his fantastic, open minded ideas. Please smell the sarcasm. Though, I don't understand how I am making an simplifying assumption. I am trying to invoke Hanlon's razor. I am nevertheless convinced that evolution will eventually average out such evident anomalies, because the free software community has been based on collaborative behaviour, and if "won't fix" becomes the norm, there will not be a community any more... Totally agree and am very thankful for the community, but so far, everyone that I know of, except for this group here, has bowed to Lennart's (and Red Hat's) "amazing wisdom." The image I get from the web is that most developers are oh so happy to jump on the systemd bandwagon. Please tell me I am wrong. I think we can assume GNU will stay free of it, but what of lovely works such as postfix? I pray developers are wise enough to ignore systemd or to make any systemd hooks that they would like to program, *optional*. I know some have gone this way. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On Fri, 8 Jul 2016 16:34:27 +0900, Simon wrote in message <577f5783.8050...@gikaku.com>: > On 07/08/2016 09:23 AM, Hughe Chung wrote: > > > > Who was the organizer of the conference? How they allowed frequent > > interruption by the idiot during the presentation? > > > > It was a real video footage. A drunken idiot went to the stage at > > the end of presentation carrying a bear bottle on one hand. > > > > I posted the video link to other FOSS forum. > > > > Action outweighs thousands words of the person. The time will tell > > how much damage would systemd cause on FOSS ecosphere overall. Empty > > promises of systemd. > > Absolutely. Lennart's attitude of "it's free, so don't complain" and > "no one is forcing you to use it" is deceptive. If I make a > calculator and release it under an open source license, I might be > able to use that line. You can't have that attitude when you are > making (what should be) inter-operable components of an operating > system. He continually commits logical fallacies and says "You should > know..." He seems very snobby. The beer part was over the top. They > should have never given him a microphone. He's obviously a bully and > therefore insecure. He has something to prove. > > This is why I am horrified. The Debian Technical Committee let > themselves be bullied and by doing so have proven that they cannot be > trusted to protect our freedom. You would think that Michael Tiemann > would speak out, but I guess he has to be careful with his meal > ticket. Shall we make a web site that documents sellouts in the tech > industry? I think "name and shame" is appropriate with this level of > depravity. If we can't trust them, word should get out the their > opinions are bought. > > That is my free opinion ;) ..this clearly is where we could have used a http://groklaw.net/ style website. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On Fri, Jul 08, 2016 at 04:34:27PM +0900, Simon Walter wrote: > On 07/08/2016 09:23 AM, Hughe Chung wrote: > > > >Who was the organizer of the conference? How they allowed frequent > >interruption by the idiot during the presentation? > > > >It was a real video footage. A drunken idiot went to the stage at the > >end of presentation carrying a bear bottle on one hand. > > > >I posted the video link to other FOSS forum. > > > >Action outweighs thousands words of the person. The time will tell how > >much damage would systemd cause on FOSS ecosphere overall. Empty > >promises of systemd. > > Absolutely. Lennart's attitude of "it's free, so don't complain" and "no one > is forcing you to use it" is deceptive. If I make a calculator and release > it under an open source license, I might be able to use that line. You can't > have that attitude when you are making (what should be) inter-operable > components of an operating system. He continually commits logical fallacies > and says "You should know..." He seems very snobby. The beer part was over > the top. They should have never given him a microphone. He's obviously a > bully and therefore insecure. He has something to prove. You are making a simplifying assumption here, which might somehow affect the conclusions. Namely, that they are interested in making "interoperable components", which is clearly not the case, since the usual answer you get from that crew is "won't fix" and "it's your software and your problem, not mine". I am nevertheless convinced that evolution will eventually average out such evident anomalies, because the free software community has been based on collaborative behaviour, and if "won't fix" becomes the norm, there will not be a community any more... HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On 07/08/2016 09:23 AM, Hughe Chung wrote: Who was the organizer of the conference? How they allowed frequent interruption by the idiot during the presentation? It was a real video footage. A drunken idiot went to the stage at the end of presentation carrying a bear bottle on one hand. I posted the video link to other FOSS forum. Action outweighs thousands words of the person. The time will tell how much damage would systemd cause on FOSS ecosphere overall. Empty promises of systemd. Absolutely. Lennart's attitude of "it's free, so don't complain" and "no one is forcing you to use it" is deceptive. If I make a calculator and release it under an open source license, I might be able to use that line. You can't have that attitude when you are making (what should be) inter-operable components of an operating system. He continually commits logical fallacies and says "You should know..." He seems very snobby. The beer part was over the top. They should have never given him a microphone. He's obviously a bully and therefore insecure. He has something to prove. This is why I am horrified. The Debian Technical Committee let themselves be bullied and by doing so have proven that they cannot be trusted to protect our freedom. You would think that Michael Tiemann would speak out, but I guess he has to be careful with his meal ticket. Shall we make a web site that documents sellouts in the tech industry? I think "name and shame" is appropriate with this level of depravity. If we can't trust them, word should get out the their opinions are bought. That is my free opinion ;) Simon ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
Who was the organizer of the conference? How they allowed frequent interruption by the idiot during the presentation? It was a real video footage. A drunken idiot went to the stage at the end of presentation carrying a bear bottle on one hand. I posted the video link to other FOSS forum. Action outweighs thousands words of the person. The time will tell how much damage would systemd cause on FOSS ecosphere overall. Empty promises of systemd. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
Am Thu, 07 Jul 2016 12:00:02 + schrieb Steve Litt : Hi Steve! > The whole systemd thing is one big propaganda war. It's not about > tech. Saying systemd is about tech is like saying a Molotov Cocktail > is about building construction. > > Anyway, this video is one of the best weapons our side has in the > propaganda war. After having read lots of pages about systemd and the controverse debate about, i (as a non-technical person) tend to think, that systemd is not bad, but fully functional: Only, it's not an init system, or better: it's not in the first place an init system but a funnel to fill into the RedHat channels as much as possible of the man power and intelligence of the linux comunity. If they want or not, if&when systemd becomes un-avoidable they will (have to) work for RedHat, and they will do that "for free" (as the hooligan esults in the end of the video). No way out ... I cannot judge if that will happen effectively, but seems clear to me the strategy (and the debian responsibles effectively were dull enough to do what a famous german writer expressed: "Nur die dümmsten Kälber, wählen ihre Schlächter selber" - something like: Only the most stupid calves go to the butcher voluntarily). Cheers. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On Wed, 6 Jul 2016 01:48:51 +0200 aitor_czr wrote: > On 07/05/2016 10:23 PM, wrote: > > I'd have wished to the guy from the university of Munich a bit more > > agressivity against the hooligan. > > Yes..., the attitude of the speaker is admirable :) "Do you know what shellscripts are?" Priceless! The whole systemd thing is one big propaganda war. It's not about tech. Saying systemd is about tech is like saying a Molotov Cocktail is about building construction. Anyway, this video is one of the best weapons our side has in the propaganda war. "Do you hate disabled people?" Really shows off potterpuff for the strutting little cluck he is. If there's anyone on this list who hasn't seen this video, you should watch it. SteveT Steve Litt July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On 07/05/2016 10:23 PM, wrote: I'd have wished to the guy from the university of Munich a bit more agressivity against the hooligan. Yes..., the attitude of the speaker is admirable :) Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On Tue, 5 Jul 2016 17:48:29 +0200 wrote: > Am Tue, 05 Jul 2016 10:21:29 + > schrieb dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org: > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfKGXQnxIvE&list=PLV5TRjrpiwATav0Dlhd_GRjc2ZRuV26kR > > > > I didn't realize this: It's heart breaking :-( . > > An arrogant asshole (sorry, hey, but i do not know another term) with > a bottle of beer in his hand and backed up by the power of What's this bottle of beer thing? I've watched that video several times and never saw beer or a reference to beer. SteveT Steve Litt July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
Am Tue, 05 Jul 2016 10:21:29 + schrieb dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org: > On 20.02.2016 01:02, aitor_czr wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Did you watch the following video? > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfKGXQnxIvE&list=PLV5TRjrpiwATav0Dlhd_GRjc2ZRuV26kR > > > > yeah, that incident of Lennart's hate speech is pretty well known > (at least over here in Germany). > > actually, I already used that to convince some of my clients of > dropping lennartware ... I didn't realize this: It's heart breaking :-( . An arrogant asshole (sorry, hey, but i do not know another term) with a bottle of beer in his hand and backed up by the power of his emplyoing company tries to ruin a speech he does not like. And in the end, cinically claims the free code. Like saying to someone who critices big finance: Why don't you drive your own bank, you're free to do so. I'd have wished to the guy from the university of Munich a bit more agressivity against the hooligan. Misguided intelligence always produces stupid results or worse. Cheers. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On Tue, 5 Jul 2016 11:23:23 +0200, metux IT consult wrote in message <577b7c8b.2070...@gr13.net>: > On 20.02.2016 01:02, aitor_czr wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Did you watch the following video? > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfKGXQnxIvE&list=PLV5TRjrpiwATav0Dlhd_GRjc2ZRuV26kR > > yeah, that incident of Lennart's hate speech is pretty well known > (at least over here in Germany). > > actually, I already used that to convince some of my clients of > dropping lennartware ... ...pulseaudio too? "Tell us all about the new shiny optional pulseaudio-module-udev, where is the udev thing coming from?": arnt@celsius:~$ apt-cache show pulseaudio-module-udev Package: pulseaudio-module-udev Source: pulseaudio Version: 9.0-1 Installed-Size: 89 Maintainer: Pulseaudio maintenance team Architecture: amd64 Replaces: pulseaudio (<< 8.0-3) Depends: libc6 (>= 2.9), libcap2 (>= 1:2.10), libpulse0 (= 9.0-1), libudev1 (>= 183), pulseaudio (= 9.0-1), udev (>= 143) Breaks: pulseaudio (<< 8.0-3) Description: Udev module for PulseAudio sound server Description-md5: 7bcdfa4113bce6fa1b06b6ffdd138ea0 Homepage: http://www.pulseaudio.org Section: sound Priority: optional Filename: pool/DEBIAN/main/p/pulseaudio/pulseaudio-module-udev_9.0-1_amd64.deb Size: 36848 MD5sum: f670dad24330545e9c26b140b05135bf SHA256: 1bf91d8b27ef9f9fcb67193b9de40958e70214a2dbc5c25e8f719a10de4370b2 arnt@celsius:~$ -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On 05.07.2016 11:48, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote: > On 20.02.2016 20:56, Edward Bartolo wrote: > >> I think systemd is aimed at desktop users assuming that most Linux >> users are also desktop users. It is also aiming at >> unifying/streamlining Linux base commands so that users from different >> flavours of Linux (aka distributions) use the same commands >> irrespective of the distribution they use. > > In German we've got a word for that (no idea how to properly > translate it to english): Gleischaltung. sorry, typo ... s/Gleischaltung/Gleichschaltung/g; --mtx ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On 20.02.2016 20:56, Edward Bartolo wrote: > I think systemd is aimed at desktop users assuming that most Linux > users are also desktop users. It is also aiming at > unifying/streamlining Linux base commands so that users from different > flavours of Linux (aka distributions) use the same commands > irrespective of the distribution they use. In German we've got a word for that (no idea how to properly translate it to english): Gleischaltung. --mtx ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On 20.02.2016 01:02, aitor_czr wrote: > Hi all, > > Did you watch the following video? > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfKGXQnxIvE&list=PLV5TRjrpiwATav0Dlhd_GRjc2ZRuV26kR yeah, that incident of Lennart's hate speech is pretty well known (at least over here in Germany). actually, I already used that to convince some of my clients of dropping lennartware ... --mtx ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On Mon, Mar 07, 2016 at 12:21:00PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > On Mon, 7 Mar 2016 17:16:32 +0400 > anon.ud...@subscribed.udmvt.ru wrote: > > I'd think twice before phrasing this as an age issue (the way > PoetterPoser does). I've seen photos of (vdev creator) Jude Nelson, > and he doesn't look like he's ready for a cane and suspenders. Sorry... > > Also, I think it depends more on experience than age. I'd imagine a > person, who had been in San Francisco during the Summer of Love, who > just came to Linux in 2015, wouldn't care about his init. I'd also > imagine a 21 year old just graduating college, who has been using Linux > since 2004, would dumpster all systemd distros. That's exactly not an age issue, but of experience of course. Thanks for understanding me and rephrasing it all correctly. > > Why this is important is that, to the extent this is perceived as an > age thing (with the must-have pejorative "neckbeard" or "graybeard"), > you give PoetterPoser more credibility when he characterizes systemd > resistance as "you can't teach an old dog new tricks." +1 > > SteveT Sorry, for me it was obvious, that an age in that context have the only explanation of experience. The other explanation is a surprise for me. What a frustrating surprise. Some people really have demonstrated an "alternative thinking", potter-thinking maybe. I'll try to keep myself as exact as it is possible for a russian-thinking person :)). Best wishes. -- Anon.Udmvt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
Steve Litt wrote: > Why this is important is that, to the extent this is perceived as an > age thing (with the must-have pejorative "neckbeard" or "graybeard"), > you give PoetterPoser more credibility when he characterizes systemd > resistance as "you can't teach an old dog new tricks." Indeed, and so can we come up with suitable monikers for "admins who know what they're doing" (ie those of us resisting SystemD), and "admins who don't know what they are doing" (the others) ? "Competent" and "clueless" might be going a bit too far. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On Mon, 7 Mar 2016 17:16:32 +0400 anon.ud...@subscribed.udmvt.ru wrote: > For example, my friends are split: > the older generations are looking for a viable alternative for a > migration, or have already migrated (FreeBSD, yes) their desktops and > servers, the young generation can't comprehend (the comlexity for > ex.) yet, so they are happy to adopt systemd and are boasting about > that, since I personally didn't adopt it at the moment and still > fighting it's installation on our servers. > So, young admins are slowly just installing what's given and it just > works for them... Unknown systemd is no worse for equally unknown > world of sysvinit+shell_scripts for the young generation. Bad news > for us... I'd think twice before phrasing this as an age issue (the way PoetterPoser does). I've seen photos of (vdev creator) Jude Nelson, and he doesn't look like he's ready for a cane and suspenders. Also, I think it depends more on experience than age. I'd imagine a person, who had been in San Francisco during the Summer of Love, who just came to Linux in 2015, wouldn't care about his init. I'd also imagine a 21 year old just graduating college, who has been using Linux since 2004, would dumpster all systemd distros. Why this is important is that, to the extent this is perceived as an age thing (with the must-have pejorative "neckbeard" or "graybeard"), you give PoetterPoser more credibility when he characterizes systemd resistance as "you can't teach an old dog new tricks." SteveT Steve Litt March 2016 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 02:38:56PM +, KatolaZ wrote: > On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 03:22:27PM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: > > [cut] > > > > > Katolaz, don't you recall how many times we've read about "The > > year of the Linux Desktop", which never happened? And don't you > > remember Gnome 3 made the desktop look like a tablet? > > > > Yes, I do remember very well. That's why I still don't understand the > crusade to "conquer the desktop", or worse "to dominate mobile > systems". As the original crusades, those are quite pointless :) Though, after all, whatever crusades THEY have took to conquer... Why it should bother me, you, us??? Why should it make me into DEEP frustration? Because it's just FREE of cost??? WHATT... Thus I ought to take it?.. srsly? KatolaZ, sorry, you are unrelated... just me, can't sustain it anymore, it's my personal soul's problems, for sure... > > > Gnome tries to build a desktop for the general public which > > would be based on Systemd-Linux, but I'm afraid this ship is going > > to sink while hunting a white whale. Thanks to Devuan, we're jumping > > to another ship and will watch the wreck from a distance. > > > > That said, I admit they have arguments for everybody, and the > > market of servers would help them a lot in gaining domination over > > Linux. > > > > I am not sure whether they can really push their stuff widely on the > servers. The vast majority of people I know who work with Linux > servers are doing the best they can to keep old Wheezy intallations, > and those who can't are switching to something else (either Devuan, or > other systemd-free distros, or FreeBSD). > > I admit that my (very restricted) social circle might be a bit > peculiar, though :) For example, my friends are split: the older generations are looking for a viable alternative for a migration, or have already migrated (FreeBSD, yes) their desktops and servers, the young generation can't comprehend (the comlexity for ex.) yet, so they are happy to adopt systemd and are boasting about that, since I personally didn't adopt it at the moment and still fighting it's installation on our servers. So, young admins are slowly just installing what's given and it just works for them... Unknown systemd is no worse for equally unknown world of sysvinit+shell_scripts for the young generation. Bad news for us... > > HND > > KatolaZ > > -- > [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] > [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] > [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] > [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Anon.Udmvt I would not eat the shit. Even if it's free of cost. Even if it has it's freedoms. Even if it is a market crusade plan somewhere. Whatever. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad according to Mark Twain
Nice quote. On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 3:12 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 06:04:11PM +, Rainer Weikusat wrote: > > Steve Litt writes: > > > > [...] > > > > > Over a year ago, on my systemd debating page, I wrote a section on > > > debating Poettering himself, and that section refers heavily to the > > > video you mention: > > > > > > > http://troubleshooters.com/linux/systemd/debating.htm#debating_poettering > > > > Hmm ... the way to debate people who simply cook up whatever bullshit > > suits them is "You don't" as that's a hopeless quest: Refuting bullshit > > usually takes some amount of research and will end up in a complicated > > statement someone who isn't an expert in the subject matter likely won't > > understand (and if that someone was such an expert, he wouldn't have > > fallen for the BS in the first place). Bullshit can also be taylored to > > the preferences of an audience while statements of fact can't, hence, > > the audience will usually like the BS (and the guy who utilizes it) > > better. Lastly, this is an eternal uphill battle because someone who > > isn't overly concerned with technical accuracy and logic can cook up > > more bullshit much faster than it could be refuted. > > Mark Twain said it thus: > > “A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on > its shoes.” > > -- hendrik > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On 22/02/16 22:52, Simon Hobson wrote: But then I still have Squeeze and Lenny systems running (they aren't broken ...) - don't think I have anything older than that ! I just bumped up against a problem with a squeeze system. It's ppc, and everyone has dropped the non-x86/x64 archives. That made it hard to install tcpdump to do some investigative work. Interestingly the package files are still all present, so after an apt-get update ; apt-get install foo I just put the package names it can't download into google and they turn up in odd corners of the net. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad according to Mark Twain
On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 06:04:11PM +, Rainer Weikusat wrote: > Steve Litt writes: > > [...] > > > Over a year ago, on my systemd debating page, I wrote a section on > > debating Poettering himself, and that section refers heavily to the > > video you mention: > > > > http://troubleshooters.com/linux/systemd/debating.htm#debating_poettering > > Hmm ... the way to debate people who simply cook up whatever bullshit > suits them is "You don't" as that's a hopeless quest: Refuting bullshit > usually takes some amount of research and will end up in a complicated > statement someone who isn't an expert in the subject matter likely won't > understand (and if that someone was such an expert, he wouldn't have > fallen for the BS in the first place). Bullshit can also be taylored to > the preferences of an audience while statements of fact can't, hence, > the audience will usually like the BS (and the guy who utilizes it) > better. Lastly, this is an eternal uphill battle because someone who > isn't overly concerned with technical accuracy and logic can cook up > more bullshit much faster than it could be refuted. Mark Twain said it thus: “A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.” -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
Steve Litt writes: [...] > Over a year ago, on my systemd debating page, I wrote a section on > debating Poettering himself, and that section refers heavily to the > video you mention: > > http://troubleshooters.com/linux/systemd/debating.htm#debating_poettering Hmm ... the way to debate people who simply cook up whatever bullshit suits them is "You don't" as that's a hopeless quest: Refuting bullshit usually takes some amount of research and will end up in a complicated statement someone who isn't an expert in the subject matter likely won't understand (and if that someone was such an expert, he wouldn't have fallen for the BS in the first place). Bullshit can also be taylored to the preferences of an audience while statements of fact can't, hence, the audience will usually like the BS (and the guy who utilizes it) better. Lastly, this is an eternal uphill battle because someone who isn't overly concerned with technical accuracy and logic can cook up more bullshit much faster than it could be refuted. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On Mon, 22 Feb 2016 14:52:12 +, Simon wrote in message <74d53005-88bb-489e-acdf-7619c26b3...@thehobsons.co.uk>: > KatolaZ wrote: > > > The vast majority of people I know who work with Linux > > servers are doing the best they can to keep old Wheezy intallations, > > and those who can't are switching to something else (either Devuan, > > or other systemd-free distros, or FreeBSD). > > > > I admit that my (very restricted) social circle might be a bit > > peculiar, though :) > > Doesn't sound that bad to me - I'm about to start adding Wheezy LTS > repos to my systems. ..this would be the very best starting point for Devuan as a distro. > > But then I still have Squeeze and Lenny systems running (they aren't > broken ...) - don't think I have anything older than that ! -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 02:52:12PM +, Simon Hobson wrote: > KatolaZ wrote: > > > The vast majority of people I know who work with Linux > > servers are doing the best they can to keep old Wheezy intallations, > > and those who can't are switching to something else (either Devuan, or > > other systemd-free distros, or FreeBSD). > > > > I admit that my (very restricted) social circle might be a bit > > peculiar, though :) > > Doesn't sound that bad to me - I'm about to start adding Wheezy LTS repos to > my systems. > > But then I still have Squeeze and Lenny systems running (they aren't broken > ...) - don't think I have anything older than that ! I still have a Lenny system -- it's the ony one that will talk to my scanner. When Debian's USB driver started to enforce more of the USB protocol, it could no longer communicate with the scanner, which issued the wrong code to indicate it was done acanning and transmitting results. The wrong code killed the entore trasaction. As for my wheezy server, instead of LTS I'm planning to add devuan repos. After a complete backup on the same drive so I'll have a dual-boot between the backup wheezy system and the devuan one. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
KatolaZ wrote: > The vast majority of people I know who work with Linux > servers are doing the best they can to keep old Wheezy intallations, > and those who can't are switching to something else (either Devuan, or > other systemd-free distros, or FreeBSD). > > I admit that my (very restricted) social circle might be a bit > peculiar, though :) Doesn't sound that bad to me - I'm about to start adding Wheezy LTS repos to my systems. But then I still have Squeeze and Lenny systems running (they aren't broken ...) - don't think I have anything older than that ! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 03:22:27PM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: [cut] > > Katolaz, don't you recall how many times we've read about "The > year of the Linux Desktop", which never happened? And don't you > remember Gnome 3 made the desktop look like a tablet? > Yes, I do remember very well. That's why I still don't understand the crusade to "conquer the desktop", or worse "to dominate mobile systems". As the original crusades, those are quite pointless :) > Gnome tries to build a desktop for the general public which > would be based on Systemd-Linux, but I'm afraid this ship is going > to sink while hunting a white whale. Thanks to Devuan, we're jumping > to another ship and will watch the wreck from a distance. > > That said, I admit they have arguments for everybody, and the > market of servers would help them a lot in gaining domination over > Linux. > I am not sure whether they can really push their stuff widely on the servers. The vast majority of people I know who work with Linux servers are doing the best they can to keep old Wheezy intallations, and those who can't are switching to something else (either Devuan, or other systemd-free distros, or FreeBSD). I admit that my (very restricted) social circle might be a bit peculiar, though :) HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
Le 22/02/2016 15:38, KatolaZ a écrit : The vast majority of people I know who work with Linux servers are doing the best they can to keep old Wheezy intallations, and those who can't are switching to something else (either Devuan, or other systemd-free distros, or FreeBSD). That's very good Gnus* for us! * LaTeX-Manual-style joke. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
Le 22/02/2016 13:52, Arnt Gulbrandsen a écrit : kato...@freaknet.org writes: Well, if GNOME, KDE, and freedesktop guys are still convinced that they have any chance to scratch the shares of Android and iOS on mobles, then they might have somehow lost contact with reality. This is why all the systemd-fuss looks incredibly stupid to my ignorant eyes: four years of fighting to conquer a "market" that has never existed, and will probably never exist... The market they want is the one the Macbooks currently dominate, which may be regarded as constituting about 20% of the general tablet/laptop usage in the coming decade or so. (The number depends on how you count and what you count, but all that's offtopic here.) The other 80% are solidly held by android and ios, but 20% isn't zer. Katolaz, don't you recall how many times we've read about "The year of the Linux Desktop", which never happened? And don't you remember Gnome 3 made the desktop look like a tablet? Gnome tries to build a desktop for the general public which would be based on Systemd-Linux, but I'm afraid this ship is going to sink while hunting a white whale. Thanks to Devuan, we're jumping to another ship and will watch the wreck from a distance. That said, I admit they have arguments for everybody, and the market of servers would help them a lot in gaining domination over Linux. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
kato...@freaknet.org writes: Well, if GNOME, KDE, and freedesktop guys are still convinced that they have any chance to scratch the shares of Android and iOS on mobles, then they might have somehow lost contact with reality. This is why all the systemd-fuss looks incredibly stupid to my ignorant eyes: four years of fighting to conquer a "market" that has never existed, and will probably never exist... The market they want is the one the Macbooks currently dominate, which may be regarded as constituting about 20% of the general tablet/laptop usage in the coming decade or so. (The number depends on how you count and what you count, but all that's offtopic here.) The other 80% are solidly held by android and ios, but 20% isn't zero. Arnt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 12:56:11PM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 20/02/2016 21:58, Mitt Green a écrit : > > Edward Bartolo wrote: > > > > > >>>I think systemd is aimed at desktop users assuming that most > >>>Linux users are also desktop users. > >LOL, since when most Linux users are desktop users? > >Linux market share on desktop is around 1-2%, while on > >servers open-source operating systems maintain around 90% > >(count here BSD's also) - different sources, ye know, not > >exact numbers. > > Yet there still might be more Linux desktops than servers. But > this isn't the question. The reality is that the desktop and tablet > market, is the goal of Gnome, KDE and Freedesktop in general. These > want to share the market of Apple. Therefore they just copy the > Mac-OS model. > Well, if GNOME, KDE, and freedesktop guys are still convinced that they have any chance to scratch the shares of Android and iOS on mobles, then they might have somehow lost contact with reality. This is why all the systemd-fuss looks incredibly stupid to my ignorant eyes: four years of fighting to conquer a "market" that has never existed, and will probably never exist... HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
Didier Kryn writes: > Le 20/02/2016 03:47, Emiliano Marini a écrit : >> Maybe he's right, it's software libre. He isn't forcing anyone to >> adopt systemd, it's distribution developers fault. If Gnome forces a >> dependency upon systemd, dump Gnome. > > He's just shamelessly lying. He makes everything possible to force > systemd in all applications, and this effort is strongly supported by > Gnome (Gnome people made the decision in Debian). Well, he's not lying as it is certain beyond his powers to force anyone to do anything he is determined to avoid. OTOH, if the effort necessary for avoiding systemd turns out to be much larger than any conceivable damage caused by using it, you surely can't blame the systemd developers for that as "helping people avoid using systemd" is obviously not their business. Somewhat enlightening (I hope) other example of this kind of sophistry: A delta blues player known as Bukka White was once arrested for killing another man. Reportedly, he then stated "I never meant to kill him, I just wanted to discharge a revolver I pointed at his head. That he then died was his own business". ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
Hi, I am not a systemd supporter, what I am, is someone who wants GNU/Linux to retain its flexibility. Systemd's aim appears to be that of limiting differences between Linux machines to a minimum. Such a minimum would not exist with users having the freedom to manage and set up their Linux OS the way they want. I find this limitation a demotivator to use Linux instead of other OSs like OS X and MS Windows. If I am given the same OS recipe, why should I bother myself to use another OS that mimics what has been available for years? Edward On 21/02/2016, Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 20/02/2016 21:58, Mitt Green a écrit : >> Edward Bartolo wrote: >> >> >>> >I think systemd is aimed at desktop users assuming that most >>> >Linux users are also desktop users. >> LOL, since when most Linux users are desktop users? >> Linux market share on desktop is around 1-2%, while on >> servers open-source operating systems maintain around 90% >> (count here BSD's also) - different sources, ye know, not >> exact numbers. > > Yet there still might be more Linux desktops than servers. But this > isn't the question. The reality is that the desktop and tablet market, > is the goal of Gnome, KDE and Freedesktop in general. These want to > share the market of Apple. Therefore they just copy the Mac-OS model. > > Didier > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
Le 20/02/2016 21:58, Mitt Green a écrit : Edward Bartolo wrote: >I think systemd is aimed at desktop users assuming that most >Linux users are also desktop users. LOL, since when most Linux users are desktop users? Linux market share on desktop is around 1-2%, while on servers open-source operating systems maintain around 90% (count here BSD's also) - different sources, ye know, not exact numbers. Yet there still might be more Linux desktops than servers. But this isn't the question. The reality is that the desktop and tablet market, is the goal of Gnome, KDE and Freedesktop in general. These want to share the market of Apple. Therefore they just copy the Mac-OS model. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 01:02:28 +0100
aitor_czr wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Did you watch the following video?
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfKGXQnxIvE&list=PLV5TRjrpiwATav0Dlhd_GRjc2ZRuV26kR
>
> A conference by a system administrator interrupted by Lennart
> Poettering (at the end of that).
Aitor, this video is a classic in the world of the systemd-resistance.
Over on GoLUG IRC, one of my systemd-hating buddies and I greet each
other with "Do you hate disabled people?".
The presenter, who has a much less firm grasp on English than
Poettering, nevertheless at 24:50 the presenter makes Poettering look
incredibly stupid with the line "Do you know what shellscripts are?"
Over a year ago, on my systemd debating page, I wrote a section on
debating Poettering himself, and that section refers heavily to the
video you mention:
http://troubleshooters.com/linux/systemd/debating.htm#debating_poettering
This video is a must for any sans-systemd people who admit they don't
use systemd, because they will surely be attacked for it. Watching this
video is like watching videos of the opposing team the week before you
play them: You know what they're going to hit you with.
Poettering's technique is the moot technology alligator death roll,
alternating with the ad-hominem attack. When I say "moot technology
alligator death roll", what I mean is that just like the alligator tries
to make the fight happen underwater where he has the complete
advantage, Poettering tries to make the fight happen in the bowels of
systemd where he has the complete advantage. He'll tell you why outcome
A can be achieved by systemd, and then explains exactly how it's done
in systemd. If you follow him down that path, you're dead: He's
systemd's author: You just know Linux. He'll drown you in a sea of
details from which you'll never escape. So instead, you point out a
trivially simple alternative way. You've escaped his moot technology
alligator death roll, so now he hits both you and your simple
alternative with an ad-hominem.
There's a beautiful example of this in the video. At 24:52 the
presenter escapes Poettering's moot technology alligator death roll
(gluing locale, networking, and other stuff to the display manager)
with the words "Do you know what shellscripts are?" Not only did he
escape the death roll, but Poettering was on the canvas for ten
seconds, before he managed a weak ad-hominem ("well I mean come on, it's
a discussion he kind of likes it don't you?")
I recommend everyone who is serious about running sans-systemd view
this video, several times.
SteveT
Steve Litt
February 2016 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence
http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
___
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Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On 02/20/2016 02:56 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote: > Hi, > > I will add my two cents to the stream of comments. > > I think systemd is aimed at desktop users assuming that most Linux > users are also desktop users. It is also aiming at > unifying/streamlining Linux base commands so that users from different > flavours of Linux (aka distributions) use the same commands > irrespective of the distribution they use. > > If I am correct, this has been the dream of freedesktop.org. Note the > name, 'freedesktop'. So, the emphasis appears on desktop use. For such > users, CLI base commands are a second class of necessary tools but not > the primary tools, as the latter, are obviously GUI applications. > > The problem with systemd is the way it is made mandatory for unrelated > packages forcing distributions to adopt it. This policy smells of > corporate tactics which are totally out of place where free software > is involved. Now we have a take it or leave it attitude. > > Sysemd is not only an init system but far more than that. In my > opinion it has become more and more like a replacement of the entire > base system. The reason is the infamous streamlining of distributions > in favour of newbies who do not appreciate using an entirely different > operating system. > Edward, I think that is a pretty good take on it. I come from a place where a GUI and hence the "Desktop" is a front end of convenience over or as an alternative to a CLI or scripted interface to a program. Systemd seems to be a GUI prioritization and magic show at the expense of the CLI and identifiable, separable and addressable underpinnings. The init was just the "foot in the door". It really is a whole different ball game and while I believe in the live and let live way of free and open source, where things survive or not on their merits, I have a whole lot of trouble with the systemd implementation onslaught with their "poison pill" approach. It is effectively killing alternate implementations and opportunities for GNU/Linux across what has become the majority of distributions with well contrived political shell games on the upper level distributions poisoning the lower tier derivatives. I strongly feel that the holdout out, no systemd developers, programmers and distributions are in the big long term picture really the only way forward and without them GNU/Linux would have mostly morphed into Systemd (GNU compliant)/Linux by now and the rest of the tree from which it grew would be dormant, dying or dead. Clarke ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
On 21/02/16 07:58, Mitt Green wrote: Edward Bartolo wrote: I think systemd is aimed at desktop users assuming that most Linux users are also desktop users. LOL, since when most Linux users are desktop users? Linux market share on desktop is around 1-2%, while on servers open-source operating systems maintain around 90% (count here BSD's also) - different sources, ye know, not exact numbers. There is also TOP500 list, the latest one shows 494 supercomputers using Linux and 6 - AIX. Funny enough, CentOS has much more installations than RHEL (54 against ~10). And one more interesting fact, there is only one RHEL7 installation, others (from this family) are RHEL6 and CentOS6, which, as ye know, have sysvinit. This can be inaccurate, since on 332 machines 'tis written just Linux. For more info visit top500.org. or look at the use of linux in embedded systems, on various hardwares, with or without a GUI interface of some sort which anyway is often web based. or look at the numbers of mobile devices running Linux with android as GUI (and also replacing much of the unix-like stack) or consider the number of low-end laptops running Linux with Chromebook as GUI also ... if you consider desktops with a windowing GUI on top of a unix system then linux loses the numbers game to OSX. Much of the madness of debian going systemd is exactly that desktop usage is a very small part of linux, and desktop style usage of computers is fading fast. Simon > > > By the way, this is the problem. Pretty much every admin I see > on the Internet is whining on how poor architecture is, and so > on, ye know. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
Edward Bartolo wrote: >I think systemd is aimed at desktop users assuming that most >Linux users are also desktop users. LOL, since when most Linux users are desktop users? Linux market share on desktop is around 1-2%, while on servers open-source operating systems maintain around 90% (count here BSD's also) - different sources, ye know, not exact numbers. There is also TOP500 list, the latest one shows 494 supercomputers using Linux and 6 - AIX. Funny enough, CentOS has much more installations than RHEL (54 against ~10). And one more interesting fact, there is only one RHEL7 installation, others (from this family) are RHEL6 and CentOS6, which, as ye know, have sysvinit. This can be inaccurate, since on 332 machines 'tis written just Linux. For more info visit top500.org. By the way, this is the problem. Pretty much every admin I see on the Internet is whining on how poor architecture is, and so on, ye know. Mitt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
Hi, I will add my two cents to the stream of comments. I think systemd is aimed at desktop users assuming that most Linux users are also desktop users. It is also aiming at unifying/streamlining Linux base commands so that users from different flavours of Linux (aka distributions) use the same commands irrespective of the distribution they use. If I am correct, this has been the dream of freedesktop.org. Note the name, 'freedesktop'. So, the emphasis appears on desktop use. For such users, CLI base commands are a second class of necessary tools but not the primary tools, as the latter, are obviously GUI applications. The problem with systemd is the way it is made mandatory for unrelated packages forcing distributions to adopt it. This policy smells of corporate tactics which are totally out of place where free software is involved. Now we have a take it or leave it attitude. Sysemd is not only an init system but far more than that. In my opinion it has become more and more like a replacement of the entire base system. The reason is the infamous streamlining of distributions in favour of newbies who do not appreciate using an entirely different operating system. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
* On 2016 20 Feb 01:17 -0600, dev1fanboy wrote: > Seen this before, I think he is a little gullible in this presentation > to believe there would be a reasonable back and forth and allows a > dialogue to take place during his presentation. The video is about 2 1/2 years old. People could be forgiven for not being quite as familiar with the bullying tactics then. Today it is a much different situation. Any presenter not familiar now with such tactics has not been paying attention. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
Le 20/02/2016 03:47, Emiliano Marini a écrit : Maybe he's right, it's software libre. He isn't forcing anyone to adopt systemd, it's distribution developers fault. If Gnome forces a dependency upon systemd, dump Gnome. He's just shamelessly lying. He makes everything possible to force systemd in all applications, and this effort is strongly supported by Gnome (Gnome people made the decision in Debian). Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
Emiliano Marini wrote: >He isn't forcing anyone to adopt systemd, it's distribution >developers fault. He himself isn't, the company he works at does. We don't know the relationship between TC of Debian and RH. >If Gnome forces a dependency upon systemd, dump >Gnome. It doesn't really force it, as long as it's available in Gentoo/Funtoo, FreeBSD and maybe Dragonfly BSD repos. And don't forget, that RH develops GNOME3 as well. >If you don wan't to sacrifice (name any piece of crap forcing >a systemd dependency), it's your fault. Luckily, there is no (good) software that relies on systemd. Anyway, no one has an excuse for creating such poor solutions and promoting them. Mitt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
Not altogether true, but users can and should jump ship immediately when these things happen (assuming they're not happy with it). Cheers, chillfan On Saturday, February 20, 2016 2:47 AM, Emiliano Marini wrote: > Maybe he's right, it's software libre. He isn't forcing anyone to adopt > systemd, it's distribution developers fault. If Gnome forces a dependency > upon systemd, dump Gnome. If you don wan't to sacrifice (name any piece > of > crap forcing a systemd dependency), it's your fault. > > On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 9:02 PM, aitor_czr wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> Did you watch the following video? >> >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfKGXQnxIvE&list=PLV5TRjrpiwATav0Dlhd_GRjc2ZRuV26kR >> >> A conference by a system administrator interrupted by Lennart >> Poettering >> (at the end of that). >> >> Cheers, >> >> Aitor. >> >> ___ >> Dng mailing list >> Dng@lists.dyne.org >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng >> >> > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Take back your privacy. Switch to www.StartMail.com ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
Seen this before, I think he is a little gullible in this presentation to believe there would be a reasonable back and forth and allows a dialogue to take place during his presentation. So he really shouldn't have allowed a debate until the end, but he had made some good points here I thought. Cheers, chillfan On Saturday, February 20, 2016 12:02 AM, aitor_czr wrote: > Hi all, > > Did you watch the following video? > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfKGXQnxIvE&list=PLV5TRjrpiwATav0Dlhd_GRjc2ZRuV26kR > > A conference by a system administrator interrupted by Lennart Poettering > (at the end of that). > > Cheers, > >Aitor. > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Take back your privacy. Switch to www.StartMail.com ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd==bad
Maybe he's right, it's software libre. He isn't forcing anyone to adopt systemd, it's distribution developers fault. If Gnome forces a dependency upon systemd, dump Gnome. If you don wan't to sacrifice (name any piece of crap forcing a systemd dependency), it's your fault. On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 9:02 PM, aitor_czr wrote: > Hi all, > > Did you watch the following video? > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfKGXQnxIvE&list=PLV5TRjrpiwATav0Dlhd_GRjc2ZRuV26kR > > A conference by a system administrator interrupted by Lennart Poettering > (at the end of that). > > Cheers, > > Aitor. > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
