Re: [DNG] What do you guys think about "Suggest" and, "Recommends" dependency?

[aitor_czr]

Hi Nextime,

On 07/31/2016 02:00 PM, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI 
 wrote:

Franco Lanza  wrote:

>Personally on debian i was using from date
>
>APT:Install-Recommends "0";
>APT:Install-Suggests "0";
>
>in all my install apt.conf.
>
>I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required
>but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded
>envs, but also on my desktop.
>
>What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?

I would be all in favour; hoping to limit the bloat, I have had for years

# cat /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/40nosuggestrecommends
Apt::Install-Suggests false;
Apt::Install-Recommends false;

Cheers,
  
Ron.


This is the configuration recommended by dev1fanboy in his guide about 
how to upgrade from debian to devuan:


https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/wikis/Upgrade-to-Devuan-and-minimalism

Cheers,

  Aitor.



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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends dependency?

[Roger Leigh]

On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 07:43:26PM -0500, T.J. Duchene wrote:
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Franco Lanza [mailto:next...@nexlab.it]
  Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2015 5:36 PM
  To: dng@lists.dyne.org
  Subject: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends
  dependency?
  
  Personally on debian i was using from date
  
  APT:Install-Recommends 0;
  APT:Install-Suggests 0;
  
  in all my install apt.conf.
  
  I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required
 but
  just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded envs, but
  also on my desktop.
  
  What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?
 
 
 [T.J. ] Personally, I love the idea.  However, in certain instances, like
 -dev packages or build environments, where the recommended should really
 be followed.  I'd follow it wherever Perl or Python is involved as well,
 even if you aren't working on code, just to make sure everything works
 smoothly.

No, this is fundamentally incorrect.

Building should always be deterministic.  This means never ever using
Suggests or Recommends.  sbuild, for example, always sets
APT::Install-Recommends=false.  In addition, it will also drop
conditional dependencies so that only the first will be used, again
for determinism.

Less strict behaviour is fine when installing packages for a developer
to use on their development machine, but for automated/final builds
for deployment elsewhere, such as Debian package building, it's
essential that the necessary packages are completely and
unambiguously specified with plain Depends.


Regards,
Roger

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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends dependency?

[KatolaZ]

On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 09:40:41PM -1000, Joel Roth wrote:

[cut]

 
 Note that for a minimal dependencies default, the options to
 apt-get are not ideal. We have these two options related to
 the dependency graph.
 
--no-install-recommends
Do not consider recommended packages as a dependency for 
 installing.
Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends.
 
--install-suggests
Consider suggested packages as a dependency for installing.
Configuration Item: APT::Install-Suggests.
 
 Looks like we need to add this:
 
--install-recommends
Consider recommended packages as a dependency for installing.
Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends.
 

AFAIR the default policy in Debian (up to wheezy) was to have
Recommends installed, but not Suggests. This seems a sensible strategy
in many cases, since usually Recommends are packages which are
actually *necessary* to some functionality of a package (and many
users would be disappointed in discovering that most of the things
that are just there automagically when you apt-get install
something, won't be there if you don't bring in Recomennds). But that
has not been the policy of Ubuntu (at least in the very few early
releases), which had --install-suggests on by default (I don't know
what happend to Ubuntu after Hoary, to be honest ;))

Anyway, I second the addition of an explicit --install-recommends,
which would be more clear that --no-install-recommends=no

My2Cents

KatolaZ

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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends dependency?

[Joel Roth]

On Sat, Apr 04, 2015 at 08:18:29AM +0100, KatolaZ wrote:
 On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 12:36:22AM +0200, Franco Lanza wrote:
  Personally on debian i was using from date
  
  APT:Install-Recommends 0;
  APT:Install-Suggests 0;
  
  in all my install apt.conf.
  
  I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required
  but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded
  envs, but also on my desktop.
  
  What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?
  
 
 Hi, 
 
 please go on. Always hated to have too much garbage installed.


Note that for a minimal dependencies default, the options to
apt-get are not ideal. We have these two options related to
the dependency graph.

   --no-install-recommends
   Do not consider recommended packages as a dependency for installing.
   Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends.

   --install-suggests
   Consider suggested packages as a dependency for installing.
   Configuration Item: APT::Install-Suggests.

Looks like we need to add this:

   --install-recommends
   Consider recommended packages as a dependency for installing.
   Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends.

cheers,

Joel
 
 HND
 
 KatolaZ
 
 
 -- 
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 [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ]
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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends dependency?

[KatolaZ]

On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 12:36:22AM +0200, Franco Lanza wrote:
 Personally on debian i was using from date
 
 APT:Install-Recommends 0;
 APT:Install-Suggests 0;
 
 in all my install apt.conf.
 
 I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required
 but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded
 envs, but also on my desktop.
 
 What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?
 

Hi, 

please go on. Always hated to have too much garbage installed.

HND

KatolaZ


-- 
[ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ]
[ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ]
[ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ]
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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends dependency?

[Joerg Reisenweber]

On Fri 03 April 2015 21:40:41 Joel Roth wrote:
 On Sat, Apr 04, 2015 at 08:18:29AM +0100, KatolaZ wrote:
  On Fri, Apr 03, 2015 at 12:36:22AM +0200, Franco Lanza wrote:
   Personally on debian i was using from date
   
   APT:Install-Recommends 0;
   APT:Install-Suggests 0;
   
   in all my install apt.conf.
   
   I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required
   but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded
   envs, but also on my desktop.
   
   What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?
  
  Hi,
  
  please go on. Always hated to have too much garbage installed.
 
 Note that for a minimal dependencies default, the options to
 apt-get are not ideal. We have these two options related to
 the dependency graph.
 
--no-install-recommends
Do not consider recommended packages as a dependency for
 installing. Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends.
 
--install-suggests
Consider suggested packages as a dependency for installing.
Configuration Item: APT::Install-Suggests.
 
 Looks like we need to add this:
 
--install-recommends
Consider recommended packages as a dependency for installing.
Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends.
 

[quote man apt-get]
OPTIONS
   All command line options may be set using the configuration file, the 
   descriptions indicate the configuration option to set. For boolean 
   options you can override the config file by using something 
   **like -f-,--no-f, -f=no or several other variations.**

   --no-install-recommends
  Do not consider recommended packages as a dependency for installing. 
 Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends.
[/quote]

So maybe 
  --no-install-recommends=no 
or
  --install-recommends
or
  --no-no-install-recommends


actually I tested apt-get --install-recommends ( -s install) ...` and it seems 
to work just fine. So probablyI misunderstood the we need to add which was 
meant as add this parameter to the command issued rather than add this 
option to apt-get option parser / valid syntax


/j


(sorry Joel for previous direct mail)

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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends dependency?

[Anto]

On 04/04/15 09:40, Joel Roth wrote:

Note that for a minimal dependencies default, the options to
apt-get are not ideal. We have these two options related to
the dependency graph.

--no-install-recommends
Do not consider recommended packages as a dependency for installing.
Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends.

--install-suggests
Consider suggested packages as a dependency for installing.
Configuration Item: APT::Install-Suggests.

Looks like we need to add this:

--install-recommends
Consider recommended packages as a dependency for installing.
Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends.

cheers,

Joel



Hello Joel,

As others, I prefer to have control over the packages that I am 
installing, so apt-get only pulls the necessary packages related to the 
one I am installing instead of pulling everything else which I don't need.


For desktops, as I mentioned previously, I have to be more careful in 
installing packages without the Recommended and Suggested packages 
(my default setting). I usually take a note on the list of Recommended 
and Suggested packages. If something didn't work properly, I install 
the Recommended packages first from the list. If that still didn't 
work, I install Suggested packages. If that also didn't work, I purge 
all of those packages and search for other alternatives :)


Cheers,

Anto

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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends dependency?

[Nuno Magalhães]

On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 11:36 PM, Franco Lanza next...@nexlab.it wrote:
 Personally on debian i was using from date

 APT:Install-Recommends 0;
 APT:Install-Suggests 0;

+1
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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends dependency?

[Go Linux]

On Fri, 4/3/15, Anto arya...@chello.at wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends 
dependency?
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Friday, April 3, 2015, 11:28 AM

On 03/04/15 01:53, hellekin wrote:
 Oh, did I just announce the Devuan forum?

You did! And I just registered myself there.

The login form seems to support the synchronisation with Gitlab account,
which I also already registered a few months back. But I got nginx 404
error when I clicked on with Gitlab.



Yes, hellekin put in a monumental effort to get the forum up and running.  
Kudos to him for his contribution!  Unfortunately, the icon rendering is locked 
in to the font. I posted about this over at Mozillazine - 
http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?f=7t=2925899  patrickjdempsey's 
statement sums up the problem nicely:

At this time there is no way to force websites to use a specific font and also 
have these kinds of icons appear. I've personally been attempting to find a way 
to make a CSS hack for that and it appears that the way that web fonts have 
been implemented is so incredibly stupid and shortsighted that it's not 
possible to work around. I'm not even sure who to blame for the stupidity of 
the implementation... it's just bad all around.

Ironic that a distribution which is based on the user's freedom to choose, 
would utilize a font that denies a user the option to chose their preferred 
font on the web.  I'm not happy about this and It will probably keep me from 
participating in the forum . . .

golinux


 
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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends dependency?

[Anto]

On 03/04/15 00:36, Franco Lanza wrote:

Personally on debian i was using from date

APT:Install-Recommends 0;
APT:Install-Suggests 0;

in all my install apt.conf.

I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required
but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded
envs, but also on my desktop.

What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?


Hello Franco,

I have been using this exact same setting for years in apt.conf.d folder 
of my servers and desktops. So I really support this idea. It is very 
safe and good setting especially for servers, in my opinion.


However, on my desktops sometime I have to be more careful to check the 
Suggested and Recommended packages when installing something as I 
had some issues because of that setting. I don't remember exactly which 
packages experience the issues, but the most recent issue that I had was 
on parole or possibly on xfce4-mixer where I could not hear mp3 music on 
my USB headset, only on my PC speaker. It was fixed after I installed 
audacious with all its Suggested and Recommended packages. I didn't 
try further to find out which packages are actually required by parole 
as I only wanted to hear music that night :)


Cheers,

Anto

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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends dependency?

[Jude Nelson]

I'm all for it.  If there are a set of packages that usually get installed
together, we can create a metapackage for them.

-Jude

On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 6:36 PM, Franco Lanza next...@nexlab.it wrote:

 Personally on debian i was using from date

 APT:Install-Recommends 0;
 APT:Install-Suggests 0;

 in all my install apt.conf.

 I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required
 but just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded
 envs, but also on my desktop.

 What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?



 --

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 SIP://c...@casa.nexlab.it
 web: http://www.nexlab.net

 NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org
 you can download my public key at:
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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends dependency?

[T.J. Duchene]

 -Original Message-
 From: Franco Lanza [mailto:next...@nexlab.it]
 Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2015 5:36 PM
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Subject: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends
 dependency?
 
 Personally on debian i was using from date
 
 APT:Install-Recommends 0;
 APT:Install-Suggests 0;
 
 in all my install apt.conf.
 
 I don't like apt downloading and installing things that are not required
but
 just recommended or suggested, expecially in server or embedded envs, but
 also on my desktop.
 
 What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?


[T.J. ] Personally, I love the idea.  However, in certain instances, like
-dev packages or build environments, where the recommended should really
be followed.  I'd follow it wherever Perl or Python is involved as well,
even if you aren't working on code, just to make sure everything works
smoothly.



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Re: [Dng] What do you guys think about Suggest and Recommends dependency?

[hellekin]

On 04/02/2015 07:36 PM, Franco Lanza wrote:
 Personally on debian i was using from date
 
 APT:Install-Recommends 0;
 APT:Install-Suggests 0;
 
 What do you think if we make this the default in devuan?

*** +1.  I'm all for minimalism in Devuan, and encouraging people to use
Blends for extended setups.

Maybe there should be a meta-package that people who expect the system
to suck in everything can install to get back the greedy experience.  In
any case, this should be documented.

In the upcoming https://talk.devuan.org/ there's a topic to document and
discuss the differences between Jessie the cowgirl and Jessie the minor
planet.  Oh, did I just announce the Devuan forum?

==
hk

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