Re: [docbook-apps] GSoC Project Idea: integrated LaTeX output support for the stylesheets
On 4/5/2013 4:40 PM, Gábor Kövesdán wrote: Em 05-04-2013 22:16, maxwell escreveu: One obvious disadvantage is that we've needed to understand LaTeX (not plain TeX), since many of the tweaks rely on changes to our LaTeX style sheets, or alternative LaTeX packages. But this has been an advantage at the same time, since the LaTeX typesetting is quite mature and has handled everything we've thrown at it. Someone mentioned that dblatex uses Python. The amount of Python code in dblatex is quite small, and I've never had to do anything with it. The xslt code, otoh, I've had to deal with extensively, although most of that has had to do with odd things we're doing with the alignment of right-to-left text, and some linguistic data structures we've added to the standard DocBook structures. Having this solution, would you still be interested in a more integrated solution that follows the conventions of the DocBook XSL stylesheets and allows tuning with parameters and easy customization? Are there any serious problems in dblatex that aren't solved for you? Any functionality that you preferred to be implemented in a different way? Sorry to be late responding; my excuse is that I got married the day after this email. dblatex does have some parameters for tuning, see http://dblatex.sourceforge.net/doc/manual/sec-params.html. My impression is that dblatex directly implements many of the DocBook XSL parameters, and that dblatex handles internationalization the same way that DocBook XSL does (although I could be mistaken). I haven't run into any serious problems in dblatex. The only thing I would prefer is that the longer xslt functions be broken into smaller ones. When I do a major customization, I have to copy and change an entire function, and when the function is long, that's a nuisance. And if the author of dblatex changes that function in a later version, then I'll have to hunt down the diffs between my changed copy and the function I copied from, then make those changes in the newer version. That's pretty much unavoidable given the way xslt works, but it's easier with small functions. Or of course if it were done with Python instead of xslt, I'd be still happier, because I understand Python reasonably well. Xslt, otoh, always trips me up when I try to do even simple things. But I guess that's just my personal experience! -- Mike Maxwell maxw...@umiacs.umd.edu "My definition of an interesting universe is one that has the capacity to study itself." --Stephen Eastmond - To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-apps-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-apps-h...@lists.oasis-open.org
Re: [docbook-apps] GSoC Project Idea: integrated LaTeX output support for the stylesheets
Hi Jirka, Which XSLT procesor you have used? Plain old xsltproc. That's not surprising. On larger documents Saxon usually scales much better. First, I would give it try using Saxon (using Sun/Oracle JVM, not gjc :-). Thanks for the hint! I'll give Saxon a try if I can convince my team to not shy away from Java. :-) -- Cheers, Stefan Hinz , MySQL Documentation Manager Phone: +49-30-82702940, Fax: +49-30-82702941, http://dev.mysql.com/doc ORACLE Deutschland B.V.& Co. KG Registered Office: Riesstr. 25, 80992 Muenchen, Germany Commercial Register: Local Court Of Munich, HRA 95603 Managing Director: Jürgen Kunz General Partner: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande Register Of Chamber Of Commerce: Midden-Niederlande, No. 30143697 Managing Directors: Alexander van der Ven, Astrid Kepper, Val Maher - To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-apps-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-apps-h...@lists.oasis-open.org
Re: [docbook-apps] GSoC Project Idea: integrated LaTeX output support for the stylesheets
On 9.4.2013 18:27, Stefan Hinz wrote: >> Which XSLT procesor you have used? > > Plain old xsltproc. That's not surprising. On larger documents Saxon usually scales much better. First, I would give it try using Saxon (using Sun/Oracle JVM, not gjc :-). Jirka -- -- Jirka Kosek e-mail: ji...@kosek.cz http://xmlguru.cz -- Professional XML consulting and training services DocBook customization, custom XSLT/XSL-FO document processing -- OASIS DocBook TC member, W3C Invited Expert, ISO JTC1/SC34 rep. -- Bringing you XML Prague conferencehttp://xmlprague.cz -- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [docbook-apps] GSoC Project Idea: integrated LaTeX output support for the stylesheets
Hi Jirka, The chunked HTML output of the MySQL Reference Manual (see e.g. http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.6/en/index.html) took about 12 hours to build, as opposed to the single-file output which takes "just" about 3 hours. The remaining 9 hours were entirely spent on chunking the HTML with XSLT (aka the DocBook XSL standard way of doing this). Last year, we created a chunker.py Python script that chunks the single-file HTML (which is now the only HTML variant we're building with XSLT), and it brought down the chunking portion of build time to 3 seconds (no joke!). If chunking takes 4x longer then single page HTML then there is either some problem with XSLT procesor you have used and how it's configured or there is some fundamental flaw in stylesheets which should be discovered by using profiler. Which XSLT procesor you have used? Plain old xsltproc. -- Cheers, Stefan Hinz , MySQL Documentation Manager Phone: +49-30-82702940, Fax: +49-30-82702941, http://dev.mysql.com/doc ORACLE Deutschland B.V.& Co. KG Registered Office: Riesstr. 25, 80992 Muenchen, Germany Commercial Register: Local Court Of Munich, HRA 95603 Managing Director: Jürgen Kunz General Partner: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande Register Of Chamber Of Commerce: Midden-Niederlande, No. 30143697 Managing Directors: Alexander van der Ven, Astrid Kepper, Val Maher - To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-apps-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-apps-h...@lists.oasis-open.org
Re: [docbook-apps] GSoC Project Idea: integrated LaTeX output support for the stylesheets
On 8.4.2013 16:24, Stefan Hinz wrote: > The chunked HTML output of the MySQL Reference Manual (see e.g. > http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.6/en/index.html) took about 12 hours > to build, as opposed to the single-file output which takes "just" about > 3 hours. The remaining 9 hours were entirely spent on chunking the HTML > with XSLT (aka the DocBook XSL standard way of doing this). Last year, > we created a chunker.py Python script that chunks the single-file HTML > (which is now the only HTML variant we're building with XSLT), and it > brought down the chunking portion of build time to 3 seconds (no joke!). If chunking takes 4x longer then single page HTML then there is either some problem with XSLT procesor you have used and how it's configured or there is some fundamental flaw in stylesheets which should be discovered by using profiler. Which XSLT procesor you have used? Jirka -- -- Jirka Kosek e-mail: ji...@kosek.cz http://xmlguru.cz -- Professional XML consulting and training services DocBook customization, custom XSLT/XSL-FO document processing -- OASIS DocBook TC member, W3C Invited Expert, ISO JTC1/SC34 rep. -- Bringing you XML Prague conferencehttp://xmlprague.cz -- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [docbook-apps] GSoC Project Idea: integrated LaTeX output support for the stylesheets
Here's a little anecdote from building-huge-docs land: I'm also not concerned about Python as a dependency. It is widely available, and seems to me to be a better tool to translate XML to LaTeX than XSLT. However I'd be happy to learn otherwise.:-) The chunked HTML output of the MySQL Reference Manual (see e.g. http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.6/en/index.html) took about 12 hours to build, as opposed to the single-file output which takes "just" about 3 hours. The remaining 9 hours were entirely spent on chunking the HTML with XSLT (aka the DocBook XSL standard way of doing this). Last year, we created a chunker.py Python script that chunks the single-file HTML (which is now the only HTML variant we're building with XSLT), and it brought down the chunking portion of build time to 3 seconds (no joke!). That's just to second Stefan's non-concern about introducing a Python dependency. I'm all for sticking to XSLT as the standard for processing DocBook to other formats, but since Python can provide a performance improvement of factor 10,000 we should probably take it into consideration for other processing things, too. -- Cheers, Stefan Hinz , MySQL Documentation Manager Phone: +49-30-82702940, Fax: +49-30-82702941, http://dev.mysql.com/doc ORACLE Deutschland B.V.& Co. KG Registered Office: Riesstr. 25, 80992 Muenchen, Germany Commercial Register: Local Court Of Munich, HRA 95603 Managing Director: Jürgen Kunz General Partner: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande Register Of Chamber Of Commerce: Midden-Niederlande, No. 30143697 Managing Directors: Alexander van der Ven, Astrid Kepper, Val Maher - To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-apps-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-apps-h...@lists.oasis-open.org
Re: [docbook-apps] GSoC Project Idea: integrated LaTeX output support for the stylesheets
On 6.4.2013 16:52, Gabor Kovesdan wrote: > Yes, the goal of my proposed project is to improve the acceptance of > DocBook, that is, providing more support for tooling. If DocBook can be > used exclusively with free/open source tools, it can be suitable for > open source and/or commercial but low-budget projects. I think using > XSLT 2.0 would also be a bit limiting because of the somewhat limited > support of XSLT 2.0. What's limited with XSLT 2.0. There are several implementations of XSLT 2.0 for various platforms. Open-source Saxon-HE runs everywhere where you have access to Java VM or .NET runtime. This covers all widely used platforms including FreeBSD. Jirka -- -- Jirka Kosek e-mail: ji...@kosek.cz http://xmlguru.cz -- Professional XML consulting and training services DocBook customization, custom XSLT/XSL-FO document processing -- OASIS DocBook TC member, W3C Invited Expert, ISO JTC1/SC34 rep. -- Bringing you XML Prague conferencehttp://xmlprague.cz -- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [docbook-apps] GSoC Project Idea: integrated LaTeX output support for the stylesheets
On 6.4.2013 15:45, Stefan Seefeld wrote: > The primary reason for this work is to get rid of fop as a dependency to > create pdfs. > As far as I'm aware, at this point there is a single (Free) processor > that can handle XSLT 2.0, so overall the situation wouldn't be much > better for the purpose of helping the FreeBSD community to move to an > XSL-based DB processing flow. Basing some new code in 2013 on technology from 1999 (XSLT 1.0) when there is much powerful version of this technology (XSLT 2.0) seems as a really silly. Jirka -- -- Jirka Kosek e-mail: ji...@kosek.cz http://xmlguru.cz -- Professional XML consulting and training services DocBook customization, custom XSLT/XSL-FO document processing -- OASIS DocBook TC member, W3C Invited Expert, ISO JTC1/SC34 rep. -- Bringing you XML Prague conferencehttp://xmlprague.cz -- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [docbook-apps] GSoC Project Idea: integrated LaTeX output support for the stylesheets
On 2013.04.06. 15:45, Stefan Seefeld wrote: >if you will develop another XSLT based DB->TeX solution I strongly >suggest to use XSLT 2.0 and reuse shared code from >https://github.com/docbook/xslt20-stylesheets The primary reason for this work is to get rid of fop as a dependency to create pdfs. As far as I'm aware, at this point there is a single (Free) processor that can handle XSLT 2.0, so overall the situation wouldn't be much better for the purpose of helping the FreeBSD community to move to an XSL-based DB processing flow. Yes, the goal of my proposed project is to improve the acceptance of DocBook, that is, providing more support for tooling. If DocBook can be used exclusively with free/open source tools, it can be suitable for open source and/or commercial but low-budget projects. I think using XSLT 2.0 would also be a bit limiting because of the somewhat limited support of XSLT 2.0. Anyway, this project is not just to help FreeBSD but FreeBSD is a good indicator of success since it is a big open source project, which has an extensive documentation. Gabor - To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-apps-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-apps-h...@lists.oasis-open.org
Re: [docbook-apps] GSoC Project Idea: integrated LaTeX output support for the stylesheets
On 04/06/2013 09:03 AM, Jirka Kosek wrote: > On 5.4.2013 22:40, Gábor Kövesdán wrote: > >> Having this solution, would you still be interested in a more integrated >> solution that follows the conventions of the DocBook XSL stylesheets and >> allows tuning with parameters and easy customization? Are there any >> serious problems in dblatex that aren't solved for you? Any >> functionality that you preferred to be implemented in a different way? > > Hi, > > if you will develop another XSLT based DB->TeX solution I strongly > suggest to use XSLT 2.0 and reuse shared code from > https://github.com/docbook/xslt20-stylesheets The primary reason for this work is to get rid of fop as a dependency to create pdfs. As far as I'm aware, at this point there is a single (Free) processor that can handle XSLT 2.0, so overall the situation wouldn't be much better for the purpose of helping the FreeBSD community to move to an XSL-based DB processing flow. Stefan -- ...ich hab' noch einen Koffer in Berlin... - To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-apps-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-apps-h...@lists.oasis-open.org
Re: [docbook-apps] GSoC Project Idea: integrated LaTeX output support for the stylesheets
On 5.4.2013 22:40, Gábor Kövesdán wrote: > Having this solution, would you still be interested in a more integrated > solution that follows the conventions of the DocBook XSL stylesheets and > allows tuning with parameters and easy customization? Are there any > serious problems in dblatex that aren't solved for you? Any > functionality that you preferred to be implemented in a different way? Hi, if you will develop another XSLT based DB->TeX solution I strongly suggest to use XSLT 2.0 and reuse shared code from https://github.com/docbook/xslt20-stylesheets Jirka -- -- Jirka Kosek e-mail: ji...@kosek.cz http://xmlguru.cz -- Professional XML consulting and training services DocBook customization, custom XSLT/XSL-FO document processing -- OASIS DocBook TC member, W3C Invited Expert, ISO JTC1/SC34 rep. -- Bringing you XML Prague conferencehttp://xmlprague.cz -- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [docbook-apps] GSoC Project Idea: integrated LaTeX output support for the stylesheets
Em 05-04-2013 22:16, maxwell escreveu: One obvious disadvantage is that we've needed to understand LaTeX (not plain TeX), since many of the tweaks rely on changes to our LaTeX style sheets, or alternative LaTeX packages. But this has been an advantage at the same time, since the LaTeX typesetting is quite mature and has handled everything we've thrown at it. Someone mentioned that dblatex uses Python. The amount of Python code in dblatex is quite small, and I've never had to do anything with it. The xslt code, otoh, I've had to deal with extensively, although most of that has had to do with odd things we're doing with the alignment of right-to-left text, and some linguistic data structures we've added to the standard DocBook structures. Having this solution, would you still be interested in a more integrated solution that follows the conventions of the DocBook XSL stylesheets and allows tuning with parameters and easy customization? Are there any serious problems in dblatex that aren't solved for you? Any functionality that you preferred to be implemented in a different way? Gabor - To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-apps-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-apps-h...@lists.oasis-open.org
Re: [docbook-apps] GSoC Project Idea: integrated LaTeX output support for the stylesheets
Em 05-04-2013 18:19, honyk escreveu: If you need huge customizations in TeX based solutions, you need deep knowledge both XSLT and TeX parts of the production workflow as you usually have to customize both of them. That is exactly true about XSL FO as well. If you need customizations, you need to know both XSLT and XSL FO. It is just a question of which one you know better, XSL FO or TeX. I've worked with both and I have no problem with either, using a reference I can find out what I want to know. But I think there are more people, who knows TeX than XSL FO. Knowing nothing about TeX syntax I simplified my task by concentrating on one well known syntax - XSL-FO (i.e. standard with bright future:). Let's hope that bright future! But the 5 years you have waited hoping that things are getting better are not a good reason to be so optimistic. 5 yrs ago I hoped that FOP is almost mature product. Unfortunately I still cannot say that. It's a pity. Seeing huge investments in many areas it is a shame that FOP is still on the perifery of the interest. I promise when I earn money I'll suport its development. It deserves it. To be a programmer, instead of creating proposed 'workaround' for FOP issues I'd rather fix them;-) I'm not saying it should not be fixed but probably I'm not the best person for that since I don't have such a deep knowledge on typesetting. Besides, it is much more about providing an alternative choice, another flavor of rendering printable output from DocBook. You didn't want to learn TeX and better switched to commercial XSL FO product. In the same way, there may be people who do not want to learn XSL FO but know TeX and would be interested in using DocBook over a TeX-based solution. Gabor - To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-apps-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-apps-h...@lists.oasis-open.org
RE: [docbook-apps] GSoC Project Idea: integrated LaTeX output support for the stylesheets
On 2013-04-05 12:19, honyk wrote: I entered company that used dblatex. My task was to create outputs that meet the corporate identity. I very quickly switched to XSL-FO and commercial XSL-FO processor. I still believe this was the only solution to cope with that. If you need huge customizations in TeX based solutions, you need deep knowledge both XSLT and TeX parts of the production workflow as you usually have to customize both of them. FWIW, we've used the dblatex solution for five years now, and are very pleased with it. We chose it, rather than the XSL-FO route, because we're producing grammars of languages that have mixed left-to-right and right-to-left text, and not just garden variety Arabic script). At the time we made this choice, I don't believe XSL-FO supported right-to-left text well. Of course, that probably matters not at all in your situation! (BTW, we're actually using XeLaTeX, a Unicode-aware version of LaTeX.) One obvious disadvantage is that we've needed to understand LaTeX (not plain TeX), since many of the tweaks rely on changes to our LaTeX style sheets, or alternative LaTeX packages. But this has been an advantage at the same time, since the LaTeX typesetting is quite mature and has handled everything we've thrown at it. Someone mentioned that dblatex uses Python. The amount of Python code in dblatex is quite small, and I've never had to do anything with it. The xslt code, otoh, I've had to deal with extensively, although most of that has had to do with odd things we're doing with the alignment of right-to-left text, and some linguistic data structures we've added to the standard DocBook structures. Mike Maxwell University of Maryland - To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-apps-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-apps-h...@lists.oasis-open.org
RE: [docbook-apps] GSoC Project Idea: integrated LaTeX output support for the stylesheets
> Please share your thoughts. I entered company that used dblatex. My task was to create outputs that meet the corporate identity. I very quickly switched to XSL-FO and commercial XSL-FO processor. I still believe this was the only solution to cope with that. If you need huge customizations in TeX based solutions, you need deep knowledge both XSLT and TeX parts of the production workflow as you usually have to customize both of them. Knowing nothing about TeX syntax I simplified my task by concentrating on one well known syntax - XSL-FO (i.e. standard with bright future :). 5 yrs ago I hoped that FOP is almost mature product. Unfortunately I still cannot say that. It's a pity. Seeing huge investments in many areas it is a shame that FOP is still on the perifery of the interest. I promise when I earn money I'll suport its development. It deserves it. To be a programmer, instead of creating proposed 'workaround' for FOP issues I'd rather fix them ;-) Jan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-apps-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-apps-h...@lists.oasis-open.org
Re: [docbook-apps] GSoC Project Idea: integrated LaTeX output support for the stylesheets
On Fri, April 5, 2013 4:20 pm, Gábor Kövesdán wrote: > Em 05-04-2013 17:02, Tony Graham escreveu: >> On Fri, April 5, 2013 3:46 pm, Gábor Kövesdán wrote: >>> >Em 05-04-2013 16:00, Tony Graham escreveu: >>On Fri, April 5, 2013 2:09 pm, Gábor Kövesdán wrote: ... > >>>only usable open source XSL FO renderer is Apache FOP (xmlroff is > very > >>>immature and is not actively developed) so we have no > alternatives. >>Ouch. >>> >What do you exactly mean here? If you don't agree with this statement, >>> >could you please elaborate? >> I am the author of xmlroff. I would like it if it was more developed, >> that I had more time to work on it, and that there were more than me >> working on it, but it isn't, I don't, and there isn't, so I'm not >> contesting your statement. >> > Ok, I didn't know you were the author. I didn't mean it as a malicious > criticism, so I apologise if you felt like that. I would also loved if I felt it was an honest assessment and was not at all malicious. > there were other implementations of XSL FO and I especially like to > initiative of xmlroff because it is written in C. A good C (or other > native) implementation is also what the FreeBSD Project would desire but > we tried it out and the current output is not good enough yet. Indeed, > it would be really awesome if more people got involved in it but I think > implementing an XSL FO renderer is not quite a trivial task. Anyway, > haven't you thought of applying to GSoC with xmlroff as a mentoring > organization? Probably you would have to describe some well-defined > project ideas and probably it is too late for this summer and it may be > worth a try for the next year. I tried several years ago and didn't make the cut. The same lack of activity that you observe would count against it as a GSoC project at present. My current major activity w.r.t. formatting XML is the Print and Page Layout Community Group at the W3C (http://www.w3.org/community/ppl/), which is a place for anybody interested in XSL-FO or in any other technology for making pages from XML. Regards, Tony Graham tgra...@mentea.net Consultant http://www.mentea.net Mentea 13 Kelly's Bay Beach, Skerries, Co. Dublin, Ireland -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- XML, XSL-FO and XSLT consulting, training and programming - To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-apps-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-apps-h...@lists.oasis-open.org
Re: [docbook-apps] GSoC Project Idea: integrated LaTeX output support for the stylesheets
Em 05-04-2013 17:02, Tony Graham escreveu: On Fri, April 5, 2013 3:46 pm, Gábor Kövesdán wrote: >Em 05-04-2013 16:00, Tony Graham escreveu: >>On Fri, April 5, 2013 2:09 pm, Gábor Kövesdán wrote: >>>I plan to apply to this year's Summer of Code and I wanted to share my >>>idea with you for discussion. I've been using DocBook both for personal >>>documents (CV, Bachelor and Master Thesis, papers, etc.) and in the >>>FreeBSD Project. I'm usually satisfied with the output that Apache FOP >>>creates but I believe the PDF generation should be better supported. >>>The >>>only usable open source XSL FO renderer is Apache FOP (xmlroff is very >>>immature and is not actively developed) so we have no alternatives. >>Ouch. >What do you exactly mean here? If you don't agree with this statement, >could you please elaborate? I am the author of xmlroff. I would like it if it was more developed, that I had more time to work on it, and that there were more than me working on it, but it isn't, I don't, and there isn't, so I'm not contesting your statement. Ok, I didn't know you were the author. I didn't mean it as a malicious criticism, so I apologise if you felt like that. I would also loved if there were other implementations of XSL FO and I especially like to initiative of xmlroff because it is written in C. A good C (or other native) implementation is also what the FreeBSD Project would desire but we tried it out and the current output is not good enough yet. Indeed, it would be really awesome if more people got involved in it but I think implementing an XSL FO renderer is not quite a trivial task. Anyway, haven't you thought of applying to GSoC with xmlroff as a mentoring organization? Probably you would have to describe some well-defined project ideas and probably it is too late for this summer and it may be worth a try for the next year. Gabor - To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-apps-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-apps-h...@lists.oasis-open.org
Re: [docbook-apps] GSoC Project Idea: integrated LaTeX output support for the stylesheets
On Fri, April 5, 2013 3:46 pm, Gábor Kövesdán wrote: > Em 05-04-2013 16:00, Tony Graham escreveu: >> On Fri, April 5, 2013 2:09 pm, Gábor Kövesdán wrote: >>> I plan to apply to this year's Summer of Code and I wanted to share my >>> idea with you for discussion. I've been using DocBook both for personal >>> documents (CV, Bachelor and Master Thesis, papers, etc.) and in the >>> FreeBSD Project. I'm usually satisfied with the output that Apache FOP >>> creates but I believe the PDF generation should be better supported. >>> The >>> only usable open source XSL FO renderer is Apache FOP (xmlroff is very >>> immature and is not actively developed) so we have no alternatives. >> Ouch. > What do you exactly mean here? If you don't agree with this statement, > could you please elaborate? I am the author of xmlroff. I would like it if it was more developed, that I had more time to work on it, and that there were more than me working on it, but it isn't, I don't, and there isn't, so I'm not contesting your statement. >> Have you looked at speedata Publisher >> (http://speedata.github.com/publisher/), which is open source, works >> with >> XML, and has LuaTeX underneath? (I haven't used it myself.) >> > Not yet but thank you for the hint, I'll take a look. But it also seems > to have quite some dependencies (Ruby, Rake, Jekyll, Go) and it won't be That's to build it. You can download pre-made binaries for multiple platforms. > able to integrate into DocBook XSL as much. Regards, Tony Graham tgra...@mentea.net Consultant http://www.mentea.net Mentea 13 Kelly's Bay Beach, Skerries, Co. Dublin, Ireland -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- XML, XSL-FO and XSLT consulting, training and programming - To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-apps-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-apps-h...@lists.oasis-open.org
Re: [docbook-apps] GSoC Project Idea: integrated LaTeX output support for the stylesheets
On 04/05/2013 10:38 AM, Gábor Kövesdán wrote: > Em 05-04-2013 15:26, Stefan Seefeld escreveu: >>> There are two projects, db2latex and dblatex, which provide such >>> >functionality but they do not integrate well with the existing >>> >stylesheets and dblatex also introduces a new dependency, Python. >> Can you elaborate a little how you would reuse existing stylesheets in >> your approach ? AFAIU they are all specific to a particular output >> medium (e.g. HTML or FO), and so the only way to reuse them would be to >> process the generated FO instead of DB, no ? >> I'm also not concerned about Python as a dependency. It is widely >> available, and seems to me to be a better tool to translate XML to LaTeX >> than XSLT. However I'd be happy to learn otherwise.:-) > There are couple of general templates and facilities, e.g. those that > handle localized text and the titlepage generation mechanism. I mean > here integration and not strict reuse. People would be able to use > these stylesheets with the same conventions as they use XHTML and FO > stylesheets, that is, generating a titlepage, setting XSLT parameters > to control behavior and overriding certain templates, in which they > can insert localized templates or use e.g. the object.id template. It > could be shipped with the DocBook XSL distribution and could have a > similar reference documentation of XSLT parameters? OK, that makes sense. > > If you prefer Python, it could be an alternative but I'd like to > provide a purely XSLT-based mechanism, as well. According to my > estimation, it would require very minimal coding. Fair enough. Stefan -- ...ich hab' noch einen Koffer in Berlin... - To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-apps-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-apps-h...@lists.oasis-open.org
Re: [docbook-apps] GSoC Project Idea: integrated LaTeX output support for the stylesheets
Em 05-04-2013 16:00, Tony Graham escreveu: On Fri, April 5, 2013 2:09 pm, Gábor Kövesdán wrote: I plan to apply to this year's Summer of Code and I wanted to share my idea with you for discussion. I've been using DocBook both for personal documents (CV, Bachelor and Master Thesis, papers, etc.) and in the FreeBSD Project. I'm usually satisfied with the output that Apache FOP creates but I believe the PDF generation should be better supported. The only usable open source XSL FO renderer is Apache FOP (xmlroff is very immature and is not actively developed) so we have no alternatives. Ouch. What do you exactly mean here? If you don't agree with this statement, could you please elaborate? Have you looked at speedata Publisher (http://speedata.github.com/publisher/), which is open source, works with XML, and has LuaTeX underneath? (I haven't used it myself.) Not yet but thank you for the hint, I'll take a look. But it also seems to have quite some dependencies (Ruby, Rake, Jekyll, Go) and it won't be able to integrate into DocBook XSL as much. Gabor - To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-apps-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-apps-h...@lists.oasis-open.org
Re: [docbook-apps] GSoC Project Idea: integrated LaTeX output support for the stylesheets
Em 05-04-2013 15:26, Stefan Seefeld escreveu: There are two projects, db2latex and dblatex, which provide such >functionality but they do not integrate well with the existing >stylesheets and dblatex also introduces a new dependency, Python. Can you elaborate a little how you would reuse existing stylesheets in your approach ? AFAIU they are all specific to a particular output medium (e.g. HTML or FO), and so the only way to reuse them would be to process the generated FO instead of DB, no ? I'm also not concerned about Python as a dependency. It is widely available, and seems to me to be a better tool to translate XML to LaTeX than XSLT. However I'd be happy to learn otherwise.:-) There are couple of general templates and facilities, e.g. those that handle localized text and the titlepage generation mechanism. I mean here integration and not strict reuse. People would be able to use these stylesheets with the same conventions as they use XHTML and FO stylesheets, that is, generating a titlepage, setting XSLT parameters to control behavior and overriding certain templates, in which they can insert localized templates or use e.g. the object.id template. It could be shipped with the DocBook XSL distribution and could have a similar reference documentation of XSLT parameters? If you prefer Python, it could be an alternative but I'd like to provide a purely XSLT-based mechanism, as well. According to my estimation, it would require very minimal coding. >Do you also think it is useful? Any potential mentors? Please share >your thoughts. While I'm concerned about the scope of the project, I'd be happy to mentor you again this year. Thank you, Stefan! Gabor - To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-apps-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-apps-h...@lists.oasis-open.org
Re: [docbook-apps] GSoC Project Idea: integrated LaTeX output support for the stylesheets
On Fri, April 5, 2013 2:09 pm, Gábor Kövesdán wrote: > I plan to apply to this year's Summer of Code and I wanted to share my > idea with you for discussion. I've been using DocBook both for personal > documents (CV, Bachelor and Master Thesis, papers, etc.) and in the > FreeBSD Project. I'm usually satisfied with the output that Apache FOP > creates but I believe the PDF generation should be better supported. The > only usable open source XSL FO renderer is Apache FOP (xmlroff is very > immature and is not actively developed) so we have no alternatives. Ouch. > Besides, I had problems with it with large documents (it crashes). As a > result, in FreeBSD, we are still using DocBook 4.2/4.5 with DSSSL > stylesheets to render PDF since we are not satisfied with this > situation. The lack of alternatives could mean technology/vendor > lock-in, it does not work with some of our big documents and Java is a > heavy dependency. I've worked with XSL FO and quite like how it works > but when it comes to these factors I feel afraid of basing a serious > project on XSL FO and FOP. Because of the complexity of XSL FO, it is > not easy to write a renderer so this situation will probably not change > in the near future. In turn, there's been LaTeX for a long time and > people use it, they are familiar with and it is very well supported. > Probably noone would think it is a risk basing a documentation project > on LaTeX.But DocBook is more semantic and I like it much more. Also, the > XHTML and EPUB generation of DocBook is of a really high quality. So I'd > like to combine the advantages of DocBook and LaTeX and create > stylesheets that produce LaTeX output that can be used for printable > formats. I think that probably more people thinks like me and having > this functionality would improve DocBook's acceptance in the industry. Have you looked at speedata Publisher (http://speedata.github.com/publisher/), which is open source, works with XML, and has LuaTeX underneath? (I haven't used it myself.) Regards, Tony Graham tgra...@mentea.net Consultant http://www.mentea.net Mentea 13 Kelly's Bay Beach, Skerries, Co. Dublin, Ireland -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- XML, XSL-FO and XSLT consulting, training and programming - To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-apps-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-apps-h...@lists.oasis-open.org
Re: [docbook-apps] GSoC Project Idea: integrated LaTeX output support for the stylesheets
Hi Gabor, On 04/05/2013 09:09 AM, Gábor Kövesdán wrote: > Hi, > > I plan to apply to this year's Summer of Code and I wanted to share my > idea with you for discussion. That's great to hear. I very much share your concern for the lack of tools to transform DB to printable media, and therefore support the idea to work in that area. I do have a few questions about your suggested approach, though. > There are two projects, db2latex and dblatex, which provide such > functionality but they do not integrate well with the existing > stylesheets and dblatex also introduces a new dependency, Python. Can you elaborate a little how you would reuse existing stylesheets in your approach ? AFAIU they are all specific to a particular output medium (e.g. HTML or FO), and so the only way to reuse them would be to process the generated FO instead of DB, no ? I'm also not concerned about Python as a dependency. It is widely available, and seems to me to be a better tool to translate XML to LaTeX than XSLT. However I'd be happy to learn otherwise. :-) > Do you also think it is useful? Any potential mentors? Please share > your thoughts. While I'm concerned about the scope of the project, I'd be happy to mentor you again this year. Regards, Stefan -- ...ich hab' noch einen Koffer in Berlin... - To unsubscribe, e-mail: docbook-apps-unsubscr...@lists.oasis-open.org For additional commands, e-mail: docbook-apps-h...@lists.oasis-open.org
