Re: Perl was: JMAP: Re: http API for IMAP
> Le 19 nov. 2019 à 09:14, Thomas Güttler via dovecot a > écrit : > > Am 18.11.19 um 16:18 schrieb Ralph Seichter via dovecot: >> * Thomas Güttler via dovecot: >>> https://github.com/guettli/programming-guidelines#regex-are-great---but-its-like-eating-rubbish >> Thanks for including the disclaimer "It's my personal opinion and >> feeling. No facts, no single truth." in your 'guidelines' (many of which >> I disagree with). I just wish you had included the same disclaimer in >> what you wrote in this thread, instead of presenting your personal >> opinions and beliefs as facts. >> Also, this has drifted far away from being related to Dovecot in any >> useful way. > > > You disagree? Great! I am curious. What is wrong in my personal > guidelines? Please, if you want to start a coding style flame war, do that in private. I think we got enough mails from this this discussion that are completely off the dovecot list subject.
Re: Perl was: JMAP: Re: http API for IMAP
Am 18.11.19 um 16:18 schrieb Ralph Seichter via dovecot: * Thomas Güttler via dovecot: https://github.com/guettli/programming-guidelines#regex-are-great---but-its-like-eating-rubbish Thanks for including the disclaimer "It's my personal opinion and feeling. No facts, no single truth." in your 'guidelines' (many of which I disagree with). I just wish you had included the same disclaimer in what you wrote in this thread, instead of presenting your personal opinions and beliefs as facts. Also, this has drifted far away from being related to Dovecot in any useful way. You disagree? Great! I am curious. What is wrong in my personal guidelines? Regards, Thomas Güttler -- Thomas Guettler http://www.thomas-guettler.de/ I am looking for feedback: https://github.com/guettli/programming-guidelines
Re: Perl was: JMAP: Re: http API for IMAP
* Thomas Güttler via dovecot: > https://github.com/guettli/programming-guidelines#regex-are-great---but-its-like-eating-rubbish Thanks for including the disclaimer "It's my personal opinion and feeling. No facts, no single truth." in your 'guidelines' (many of which I disagree with). I just wish you had included the same disclaimer in what you wrote in this thread, instead of presenting your personal opinions and beliefs as facts. Also, this has drifted far away from being related to Dovecot in any useful way. -Ralph
Perl was: JMAP: Re: http API for IMAP
Am 16.11.19 um 08:15 schrieb Bron Gondwana via dovecot: proxy.jmap.io is very stale code at the moment. I'm hoping to have enough time to hack on it at the IETF hackathon this weekend :) I am a big biased. AFAIK it is written in Perl. I am very happy that I did not need to use Perl since 18 years now. The regex where great. But time has changed. Everytime you use regex today, I feel like being on the wrong track. Related: https://github.com/guettli/programming-guidelines#regex-are-great---but-its-like-eating-rubbish Regards, Thomas Güttler Cheers, Bron. On Fri, Nov 15, 2019, at 00:44, Thomas Güttler via dovecot wrote: Am 14.11.19 um 14:03 schrieb Benny Pedersen via dovecot: > Thomas Güttler via dovecot skrev den 2019-11-14 08:55: > >> Is there already an open source imap2jmap server? > > why do you say imap here ? > > https://www.cyrusimap.org/imap/developer/jmap.html > > cyrus already have it, we just wait for dovecot :) I used my favorite search engine (ecosia) and found https://proxy.jmap.io/ This way you can use JMAP even if you imap server does not support it. Regards, Thomas Güttler -- Thomas Guettler http://www.thomas-guettler.de/ I am looking for feedback: https://github.com/guettli/programming-guidelines -- Bron Gondwana br...@fastmail.fm -- Thomas Guettler http://www.thomas-guettler.de/ I am looking for feedback: https://github.com/guettli/programming-guidelines
Re: JMAP: Re: http API for IMAP
On 2019-11-16 08:15, Bron Gondwana via dovecot wrote: proxy.jmap.io is very stale code at the moment. I'm hoping to have enough time to hack on it at the IETF hackathon this weekend :) oauth is currently disabled :=)
Re: JMAP: Re: http API for IMAP
proxy.jmap.io is very stale code at the moment. I'm hoping to have enough time to hack on it at the IETF hackathon this weekend :) Cheers, Bron. On Fri, Nov 15, 2019, at 00:44, Thomas Güttler via dovecot wrote: > Am 14.11.19 um 14:03 schrieb Benny Pedersen via dovecot: > > Thomas Güttler via dovecot skrev den 2019-11-14 08:55: > > > >> Is there already an open source imap2jmap server? > > > > why do you say imap here ? > > > > https://www.cyrusimap.org/imap/developer/jmap.html > > > > cyrus already have it, we just wait for dovecot :) > > > I used my favorite search engine (ecosia) and found > > https://proxy.jmap.io/ > > This way you can use JMAP even if you imap server does not > support it. > > > Regards, > Thomas Güttler > > > -- > Thomas Guettler http://www.thomas-guettler.de/ > I am looking for feedback: https://github.com/guettli/programming-guidelines > -- Bron Gondwana br...@fastmail.fm
Re: http API for IMAP
* Thomas Güttler via dovecot: > Most people use http based APIs today. And what makes you think that? Who is "most people", exactly? From my experience over the last 35 years in the business, there is no clear indication that HTTP-based APIs will dominate in the future. SMTP and IMAP have been named dead or dying for so long that I forgot to keep track, but they still work today, although modern designs would look different. > Quoting this answer: https://stackoverflow.com/a/46886237/633961 And how is that related? SmtpJS is just one example of how the goal can be achieved if one is hell-bent on using JavaScript. You can write your own proxy service if you like. Check out RFC 6455 et al. This does not make using HTTP a smart choice in my book. If one wants to use a web browser and/or smartphone as a client to access mail, there are various good solutions available. To name just two examples: RoundcubeMail just released version 1.4 with "responsive" UI, and there is SOGo with its AJAX-based UI. To me, rewriting all the functionality in JavaScript, especially when aiming to avoid the protocol specifically designed to access mail storage backends, is just not an idea worth pursuing. > The above line is from you. Should I repeat it? "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn." (R. Butler, 1939) :-) -Ralph
Re: http API for IMAP
On 11/13/2019 11:59 PM, Thomas Güttler via dovecot wrote: Am 13.11.19 um 17:21 schrieb Ralph Seichter via dovecot: * Thomas Güttler via dovecot: AFAIK you can't sent a link/URL to a mail on a shared folder to a friend. Like "Hi bob, she loves me. See this message from here https:/./" Regards, Thomas Güttler Actually - why not? It doesn't seem that difficult (at an abstract level) to implement such with available tools. PHP has built-in support for IMAP - so creating an interface that maps HTTP URI's to IMAP commands doesn't look too bad. I might even suggest leveraging existing platforms like Nextcloud - instead of creating a whole new authentication, authorization, processing, and presentation framework you'd "simply" write a Nextcloud add-on that publishes IMAP folders/messages in whatever manner you prefer. Nextcloud already provides for file-sharing - so I see this as a good fit. Daniel
Re: http API for IMAP
Hi all! On 15/11/2019 14:06, Thomas Güttler via dovecot wrote: [...] >> Note that smtpjs uses a service located at http://smtpjs. It's not truly a >> Javascript SMTP client. This "utility" means you are uploading your email >> credentials to the server smtpjs.com. Use with extreme caution. You really wanted to write here: You really don't want to use that unless you are http://smtpjs or drive your honey pot with specially created accounts. MfG, Bernd -- "I dislike type abstraction if it has no real reason. And saving on typing is not a good reason - if your typing speed is the main issue when you're coding, you're doing something seriously wrong." - Linus Torvalds pEpkey.asc Description: application/pgp-keys
Re: http API for IMAP
Am 14.11.19 um 19:18 schrieb Ralph Seichter via dovecot: * Thomas Güttler via dovecot: Stateless, http and URLs are the future. A bold claim, and not worth anything without proof, which is impossible to provide because you cannot predict the future. Yes, you are right. I can't predict the future. But I can look at the current state of the art. AFAIK nobody will use CORBA today if he starts from scratch. Most people use http based APIs today. JavaScript running on in browser or mobile phone can't connect to IMAP/SMTP. That's simply not true. There are JavaScript libraries like SmtpJS, a low-level TCP/UDP socket API, and more. Quoting this answer: https://stackoverflow.com/a/46886237/633961 > Note that smtpjs uses a service located at http://smtpjs. It's not truly a Javascript SMTP client. This "utility" means you are uploading your email credentials to the server smtpjs.com. Use with extreme caution. JS running in the browser can't. JS running in Node.js can. Please do your research before stating obvious falsehoods. The above line is from you. Should I repeat it? -- Thomas Guettler http://www.thomas-guettler.de/ I am looking for feedback: https://github.com/guettli/programming-guidelines
Re: http API for IMAP
* Thomas Güttler via dovecot: > Stateless, http and URLs are the future. A bold claim, and not worth anything without proof, which is impossible to provide because you cannot predict the future. > JavaScript running on in browser or mobile phone can't connect to > IMAP/SMTP. That's simply not true. There are JavaScript libraries like SmtpJS, a low-level TCP/UDP socket API, and more. Please do your research before stating obvious falsehoods. -Ralph
Re: http API for IMAP
You just described a more complex environment not a simplified environment. You can run code within code within code. Already we have all this abstraction and it’s leading to people not understanding and implementing solutions that make very little sense. Like what you describe. Why would you want to run an IMAP server in a browser? It’s so wrong I don’t even know where to start. If you are not talking about an IMAP server and you are talking about an IMAP client you are in the wrong forum. > On Nov 14, 2019, at 8:21 AM, Phillip Odam via dovecot > wrote: > > A HTTP API for IMAP and for that matter, POP3 and SMTP is exactly what we > built where I work. > > For anyone wonder why build such a thing? A simplified interface is an > exceptionally powerful tool. Many of our clients have encountered issues > constructing multipart http requests so if that’s an issue, good luck getting > IMAP to work. Since multipart turns out to be such an issue we’ve turned out > support for a variety of uploads including (completely non-standard) where > the request body is just the file content. > > We’ve built our API in Java and as such have simply used the JavaMail API. > Admittedly though the plan is to get off this design since when there’s 10s > of thousands messages in an IMAP maildir folder the index can grow to an > unmanageable size. > > On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 2:59 AM Thomas Güttler via dovecot > wrote: > > > Am 13.11.19 um 17:21 schrieb Ralph Seichter via dovecot: > > * Thomas Güttler via dovecot: > > > >> Is there a way to access mails in dovecot via https? > > > > Why on earth would that be beneficial? > > > >"The Internet Message Access Protocol, Version 4rev1 (IMAP4rev1) > > allows a client to access and manipulate electronic mail messages > > on a server." (RFC 3501) > > > > Putting it bluntly: Learn to use the protocol specifically designed for > > the task at hand, not a protocol with different design goals that you > > happen to know better. > > Stateless, http and URLs are the future. JavaScript running on in browser or > mobile phone can't connect to IMAP/SMTP. > > AFAIK you can't sent a link/URL to a mail on a shared folder to a friend. > Like "Hi bob, she loves me. See this message from here https:/./" > > Regards, >Thomas Güttler > > > > > -- > Thomas Guettler http://www.thomas-guettler.de/ > I am looking for feedback: https://github.com/guettli/programming-guidelines
Re: JMAP: Re: http API for IMAP
Thomas Güttler via dovecot skrev den 2019-11-14 14:44: https://proxy.jmap.io/ This way you can use JMAP even if you imap server does not support it. fair, i just try avoid proxy in all terms
Re: http API for IMAP
Am 14.11.19 um 14:21 schrieb Phillip Odam via dovecot: A HTTP API for IMAP and for that matter, POP3 and SMTP is exactly what we built where I work. Did you build upon JMAP? If not, why not? Regards, Thomas Güttler -- Thomas Guettler http://www.thomas-guettler.de/ I am looking for feedback: https://github.com/guettli/programming-guidelines
Re: JMAP: Re: http API for IMAP
Am 14.11.19 um 14:03 schrieb Benny Pedersen via dovecot: Thomas Güttler via dovecot skrev den 2019-11-14 08:55: Is there already an open source imap2jmap server? why do you say imap here ? https://www.cyrusimap.org/imap/developer/jmap.html cyrus already have it, we just wait for dovecot :) I used my favorite search engine (ecosia) and found https://proxy.jmap.io/ This way you can use JMAP even if you imap server does not support it. Regards, Thomas Güttler -- Thomas Guettler http://www.thomas-guettler.de/ I am looking for feedback: https://github.com/guettli/programming-guidelines
Re: http API for IMAP
A HTTP API for IMAP and for that matter, POP3 and SMTP is exactly what we built where I work. For anyone wonder why build such a thing? A simplified interface is an exceptionally powerful tool. Many of our clients have encountered issues constructing multipart http requests so if that’s an issue, good luck getting IMAP to work. Since multipart turns out to be such an issue we’ve turned out support for a variety of uploads including (completely non-standard) where the request body is just the file content. We’ve built our API in Java and as such have simply used the JavaMail API. Admittedly though the plan is to get off this design since when there’s 10s of thousands messages in an IMAP maildir folder the index can grow to an unmanageable size. On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 2:59 AM Thomas Güttler via dovecot < dovecot@dovecot.org> wrote: > > > Am 13.11.19 um 17:21 schrieb Ralph Seichter via dovecot: > > * Thomas Güttler via dovecot: > > > >> Is there a way to access mails in dovecot via https? > > > > Why on earth would that be beneficial? > > > >"The Internet Message Access Protocol, Version 4rev1 (IMAP4rev1) > > allows a client to access and manipulate electronic mail messages > > on a server." (RFC 3501) > > > > Putting it bluntly: Learn to use the protocol specifically designed for > > the task at hand, not a protocol with different design goals that you > > happen to know better. > > Stateless, http and URLs are the future. JavaScript running on in browser > or > mobile phone can't connect to IMAP/SMTP. > > AFAIK you can't sent a link/URL to a mail on a shared folder to a friend. > Like "Hi bob, she loves me. See this message from here https:/./" > > Regards, >Thomas Güttler > > > > > -- > Thomas Guettler http://www.thomas-guettler.de/ > I am looking for feedback: > https://github.com/guettli/programming-guidelines >
Re: JMAP: Re: http API for IMAP
Thomas Güttler via dovecot skrev den 2019-11-14 08:55: Is there already an open source imap2jmap server? why do you say imap here ? https://www.cyrusimap.org/imap/developer/jmap.html cyrus already have it, we just wait for dovecot :) did you google ?
JMAP: Re: http API for IMAP
Am 13.11.19 um 15:07 schrieb Benny Pedersen via dovecot: Thomas Güttler via dovecot skrev den 2019-11-13 14:40: I would love to write a progressive web app for accessing dovecot (via IMAP) like all other webmail is using imap But JavaScript in the browser can only use http/https. so what ? :=) hopefully you wont run webmail over http Is there a way to access mails in dovecot via https? google jmap, with is imho work on progress in dovecot Yes, great. That's what I have been looking for. Is there already an open source imap2jmap server? Again, thank you for these four letters: jmap. That was what I had on my mind. Regards, Thomas -- Thomas Guettler http://www.thomas-guettler.de/ I am looking for feedback: https://github.com/guettli/programming-guidelines
Re: http API for IMAP
Ralph Seichter via dovecot skrev den 2019-11-13 17:21: * Thomas Güttler via dovecot: Is there a way to access mails in dovecot via https? Why on earth would that be beneficial? "The Internet Message Access Protocol, Version 4rev1 (IMAP4rev1) allows a client to access and manipulate electronic mail messages on a server." (RFC 3501) Putting it bluntly: Learn to use the protocol specifically designed for the task at hand, not a protocol with different design goals that you happen to know better. hurray for gmail.com where pop3s imaps is default disabled i see forward to have dovecot supporting jmap https://dovecot.org/pipermail/dovecot/2016-December/106491.html https://www.dovecot.nl/pipermail/dovecot/2019-May/116048.html ssl>
Re: http API for IMAP
Thomas Güttler via dovecot skrev den 2019-11-13 14:40: I would love to write a progressive web app for accessing dovecot (via IMAP) like all other webmail is using imap But JavaScript in the browser can only use http/https. so what ? :=) hopefully you wont run webmail over http Is there a way to access mails in dovecot via https? google jmap, with is imho work on progress in dovecot Maybe by a third-party tool which I don't know yet feel free to make another imap based webmail
