Re: outlook idiocy - IMAP folders with /

[Sami Ketola]

> On 2 Oct 2018, at 15.28, Jerry  wrote:
>> 
> 
> Nobody is going to stop using Outlook because some *.nix user has gotten his
> shorts up in a knot. Now, I did ask this question on a MS Outlook Tech Forum.
> One of the first responses I got was to ask exactly what Dovecot's response
> was to the attempt to create this folder; i.e., what error message or code
> was returned by Dovecot. I don't have the answer to that. If someone can
> supply me with the complete and accurate return code I will post that and see
> what transpires.
> 

A NO [CANNOT] Character not allowed in mailbox name: '/' (0.001 + 0.000 secs).

Sami

Re: outlook idiocy - IMAP folders with /

[Helmut K. C. Tessarek]

On 2018-10-02 16:02, Timo Sirainen wrote:
> No, that's not how the listescape plugin works. You can't change the 
> filesystem separator with or without listescape plugin. It's always "." with 
> Maildir++.

This exactly my point. This fact is nowhere stated in the documentation.

I'm actually not talking about the plugin at all. (I'm very sorry that
I've replied to your listescape reply, my bad.)

The documentation only mentions that the separator can be changed by
setting the `separator` option. But it doesn't explain what it actually
does and why one wanted to do so in the first place.

e.g. Someone uses the default. Then changes it to something else. What
happens then? (you answered it already partly - clients might be confused).

But if the filesystem always used the . for Maildir, why would somebody
want to change the separator (without the plugin)?

Cheers,
  K. C.

-- 
regards Helmut K. C. Tessarek  KeyID 0x172380A011EF4944
Key fingerprint = 8A55 70C1 BD85 D34E ADBC 386C 1723 80A0 11EF 4944

/*
   Thou shalt not follow the NULL pointer for chaos and madness
   await thee at its end.
*/



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Re: outlook idiocy - IMAP folders with /

[Timo Sirainen]

On 2 Oct 2018, at 22.52, Helmut K. C. Tessarek  wrote:
> 
> On 2018-10-01 04:07, Timo Sirainen wrote:
>> 
>> https://wiki2.dovecot.org/Plugins/Listescape maybe?
> 
> It should be mentioned somehow that one can't just change the hierarchy
> separator on the fly (without manual changes to the fs).
> 
> If you used . as the separator, it would look this in the filesystem:
> .testfolder.sub1
> Now you change the separator to $.
> Your mail client will see the existing folders as .testfolder.sub1
> instead of:
> 
> testfolder
>   sub1

No, that's not how the listescape plugin works. You can't change the filesystem 
separator with or without listescape plugin. It's always "." with Maildir++. 
You can change the namespace's visible separator to e.g. "$" which allows you 
to start using "." in the folder names with listescape. But using "." will be 
encoded as \2e (or something) in the filesystem.

Changing the namespace separator can have other problems though. Clients 
generally don't like it much, and may redownload all mails in subfolders if 
it's changed. Some clients may become even more confused.



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Re: outlook idiocy - IMAP folders with /

[Helmut K. C. Tessarek]

On 2018-10-01 04:07, Timo Sirainen wrote:
> 
> https://wiki2.dovecot.org/Plugins/Listescape maybe?

It should be mentioned somehow that one can't just change the hierarchy
separator on the fly (without manual changes to the fs).

If you used . as the separator, it would look this in the filesystem:
.testfolder.sub1
Now you change the separator to $.
Your mail client will see the existing folders as .testfolder.sub1
instead of:

testfolder
   sub1

Cheers,
  K. C.

-- 
regards Helmut K. C. Tessarek  KeyID 0x172380A011EF4944
Key fingerprint = 8A55 70C1 BD85 D34E ADBC 386C 1723 80A0 11EF 4944

/*
   Thou shalt not follow the NULL pointer for chaos and madness
   await thee at its end.
*/



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: outlook idiocy - IMAP folders with /

[Jerry]

>On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 09:59, Wojciech Puchar  wrote:
>>>
>>> As I have no control over their minds, hands, and client software, I wish
>>> I could enforce the policy from the server, returning an error message to
>>> the client.
>>>
>>> On its turn, this requires the client to listen to such server messages,
>>> operated by a smarter user.
>>>
>>> At the end of the day, it feels like we are re-discovering the wheel, as
>>> such problems should have been addressed and solved long ago by an RFC.
>>>
>>> Listescape is a welcome patch. Let see if it works. I just have to select
>>> a character that no user could type and still practical for the
>>> filesystem to use...
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 10:07, Timo Sirainen  wrote:
>>> On 28 Sep 2018, at 16.44, Wojciech Puchar  wrote:
>>>
>>> user attempts to create folders with / dovecot naturally cannot create it
>>> so it returns error but outlook of course "create" it and keep data in
>>> local store only. data is lost when you remove local store .pst file.
>>>
>>> The question is - can dovecot be configured so it will automatically
>>> replace slash in name with something else?
>>>
>>>
>>> https://wiki2.dovecot.org/Plugins/Listescape maybe?

>>
>> the problem with pseudomail pseudoprogram outlook is that it simply
>> ignores error and shows folder created, then even allow to store messages
>> in it (store it locally in temporary file).
>>
>> When file is deleted messages are lost.
>>

>On Tue, 02 Oct 2018 11:29:40 +, Rupert Gallagher stated:

>I think we need a public compliance test, similar to html and ssl, then
>people would start questioning the quality of their own client, and migrate
>to better ones. When Micro$oft will eventually feel the pinch, then they
>will start fixing their $hit. People have the power! (I like that song.)

Nobody is going to stop using Outlook because some *.nix user has gotten his
shorts up in a knot. Now, I did ask this question on a MS Outlook Tech Forum.
One of the first responses I got was to ask exactly what Dovecot's response
was to the attempt to create this folder; i.e., what error message or code
was returned by Dovecot. I don't have the answer to that. If someone can
supply me with the complete and accurate return code I will post that and see
what transpires.

By the way, could we please do away with the "TOP POSTING" on this thread. It
seems rather counter productive to be bitching about the behavior of MS
Outlook while a poster posts in an unsatisfactory manner.

-- 
Jerry

Re: outlook idiocy - IMAP folders with /

[Rupert Gallagher]

I think we need a public compliance test, similar to html and ssl, then people 
would start questioning the quality of their own client, and migrate to better 
ones. When Micro$oft will eventually feel the pinch, then they will start 
fixing their $hit. People have the power! (I like that song.)

On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 09:59, Wojciech Puchar  wrote:

>>
>> As I have no control over their minds, hands, and client software, I wish I 
>> could enforce the policy from the server, returning an
>> error message to the client.
>>
>> On its turn, this requires the client to listen to such server messages, 
>> operated by a smarter user.
>
> the problem with pseudomail pseudoprogram outlook is that it simply
> ignores error and shows folder created, then even allow to store messages
> in it (store it locally in temporary file).
>
> When file is deleted messages are lost.
>
>>
>> At the end of the day, it feels like we are re-discovering the wheel, as 
>> such problems should have been addressed and solved long
>> ago by an RFC.
>>
>> Listescape is a welcome patch. Let see if it works. I just have to select a 
>> character that no user could type and still practical
>> for the filesystem to use...
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 10:07, Timo Sirainen  wrote:
>> On 28 Sep 2018, at 16.44, Wojciech Puchar  wrote:
>>
>> user attempts to create folders with / dovecot naturally cannot create it so 
>> it returns error but outlook of
>> course "create" it and keep data in local store only. data is lost when you 
>> remove local store .pst file.
>>
>> The question is - can dovecot be configured so it will automatically replace 
>> slash in name with something
>> else?
>>
>>
>> https://wiki2.dovecot.org/Plugins/Listescape maybe?
>>
>>
>>

Re: outlook idiocy - IMAP folders with /

[Wojciech Puchar]

As I have no control over their minds, hands, and client software, I wish I 
could enforce the policy from the server, returning an
error message to the client. 

On its turn, this requires the client to listen to such server messages, 
operated by a smarter user. 


the problem with pseudomail pseudoprogram outlook is that it simply 
ignores error and shows folder created, then even allow to store messages 
in it (store it locally in temporary file).


When file is deleted messages are lost.




At the end of the day, it feels like we are re-discovering the wheel, as such 
problems should have been addressed and solved long
ago by an RFC. 

Listescape is a welcome patch. Let see if it works. I just have to select a 
character that no user could type and still practical
for the filesystem to use...


On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 10:07, Timo Sirainen  wrote:
  On 28 Sep 2018, at 16.44, Wojciech Puchar  wrote:

user attempts to create folders with / dovecot naturally cannot 
create it so it returns error but outlook of
course "create" it and keep data in local store only. data is lost 
when you remove local store .pst file.

The question is - can dovecot be configured so it will 
automatically replace slash in name with something
else?


https://wiki2.dovecot.org/Plugins/Listescape maybe?

Re: outlook idiocy - IMAP folders with /

[Wojciech Puchar]

this seems to form properly.

thank you very much

On Mon, 1 Oct 2018, Timo Sirainen wrote:


On 28 Sep 2018, at 16.44, Wojciech Puchar  wrote:

  user attempts to create folders with / dovecot naturally cannot create it 
so it returns error but outlook of course
  "create" it and keep data in local store only. data is lost when you 
remove local store .pst file.

  The question is - can dovecot be configured so it will automatically 
replace slash in name with something else?


https://wiki2.dovecot.org/Plugins/Listescape maybe?

Re: outlook idiocy - IMAP folders with /

[Wojciech Puchar]

The question is - can dovecot be configured so it will automatically
replace slash in name with something else?


And how would this help? Outlook would still go ahead and create the folder 
with / in it, and dovecot would create a folder with, say - in it and now you'd 
have two folders.

Aki



right

Re: outlook idiocy - IMAP folders with /

[Rupert Gallagher]

I tell users to limit the folder characters to /0-9a-zA-Z_/, because anything 
else may upset a mail client or server.

As I have no control over their minds, hands, and client software, I wish I 
could enforce the policy from the server, returning an error message to the 
client.

On its turn, this requires the client to listen to such server messages, 
operated by a smarter user.

At the end of the day, it feels like we are re-discovering the wheel, as such 
problems should have been addressed and solved long ago by an RFC.

Listescape is a welcome patch. Let see if it works. I just have to select a 
character that no user could type and still practical for the filesystem to 
use...

On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 10:07, Timo Sirainen  wrote:

> On 28 Sep 2018, at 16.44, Wojciech Puchar  wrote:
>
>> user attempts to create folders with / dovecot naturally cannot create it so 
>> it returns error but outlook of course "create" it and keep data in local 
>> store only. data is lost when you remove local store .pst file.
>>
>> The question is - can dovecot be configured so it will automatically replace 
>> slash in name with something else?
>
> https://wiki2.dovecot.org/Plugins/Listescape maybe?

Re: outlook idiocy - IMAP folders with /

[Timo Sirainen]

On 28 Sep 2018, at 16.44, Wojciech Puchar  wrote:
> 
> user attempts to create folders with / dovecot naturally cannot create it so 
> it returns error but outlook of course "create" it and keep data in local 
> store only. data is lost when you remove local store .pst file.
> 
> The question is - can dovecot be configured so it will automatically replace 
> slash in name with something else?

https://wiki2.dovecot.org/Plugins/Listescape 
 maybe?

Re: outlook idiocy - IMAP folders with /

[Rupert Gallagher]

Sorry Aki, you are right.

On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 09:59, Aki Tuomi  wrote:

>> On 29 September 2018 at 10:05 Rupert Gallagher  wrote:
>>
>>
>> +1
>>
>> A similar problem occurs with "."
>>
>> Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 15:44, Wojciech Puchar  wrote:
>>
>> > user attempts to create folders with /
>> > dovecot naturally cannot create it so it returns error but outlook of
>> > course "create" it and keep data in local store only. data is lost when
>> > you remove local store .pst file.
>> >
>> > The question is - can dovecot be configured so it will automatically
>> > replace slash in name with something else?
>
> And how would this help? Outlook would still go ahead and create the folder 
> with / in it, and dovecot would create a folder with, say - in it and now 
> you'd have two folders.
>
> Aki

Re: outlook idiocy - IMAP folders with /

[Aki Tuomi]

> On 29 September 2018 at 10:05 Rupert Gallagher  wrote:
> 
> 
> +1
> 
> A similar problem occurs with "."
> 
> Sent from ProtonMail Mobile
> 
> On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 15:44, Wojciech Puchar  wrote:
> 
> > user attempts to create folders with /
> > dovecot naturally cannot create it so it returns error but outlook of
> > course "create" it and keep data in local store only. data is lost when
> > you remove local store .pst file.
> >
> > The question is - can dovecot be configured so it will automatically
> > replace slash in name with something else?

And how would this help? Outlook would still go ahead and create the folder 
with / in it, and dovecot would create a folder with, say - in it and now you'd 
have two folders.

Aki

Re: outlook idiocy - IMAP folders with /

[Rupert Gallagher]

+1

A similar problem occurs with "."

Sent from ProtonMail Mobile

On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 15:44, Wojciech Puchar  wrote:

> user attempts to create folders with /
> dovecot naturally cannot create it so it returns error but outlook of
> course "create" it and keep data in local store only. data is lost when
> you remove local store .pst file.
>
> The question is - can dovecot be configured so it will automatically
> replace slash in name with something else?

outlook idiocy - IMAP folders with /

[Wojciech Puchar]

user attempts to create folders with / 
dovecot naturally cannot create it so it returns error but outlook of 
course "create" it and keep data in local store only. data is lost when 
you remove local store .pst file.


The question is - can dovecot be configured so it will automatically 
replace slash in name with something else?