Re: [Drakelist] Drake crystals accuracy
Maybe it's just that 40M gets used the most :-) 73, Ron WD8SBB --- On Fri, 9/16/11, Garey Barrell k4...@mindspring.com wrote: From: Garey Barrell k4...@mindspring.com Subject: Re: [Drakelist] Drake crystals accuracy To: Jim Shorney jshor...@inebraska.com Cc: Drakelist@zerobeat.net Drakelist@zerobeat.net Date: Friday, September 16, 2011, 10:07 PM Jim - I don't know about that on the C-Line. The 40M crystal in the 2-B is definitely more 'failure prone' that the others, but I think that is because of the oscillator circuit Drake used. The 40M crystal is the 'last' (highest) fundamental crystal used, the next one up is run in overtone mode. Perhaps the 40M crystal is confused about which mode it's supposed to be in?!?! A new 6EA8 seems to 'fix' a large number of these crystals. 73, Garey - K4OAH Glen Allen, VA Drake 2-B, 2-C/2-NT, 4-A, 4-B, C-Line and TR-4/C Service Supplement CDs www.k4oah.com Jim Shorney wrote: On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 18:31:39 -0400, Garey Barrell wrote: Yes, ALL crystals drift with age. Strangely enough, it's called 'aging'!! :-) Interstingly enough, the 40 Meter crystals (at least in the C-Line era) seem to age less gracefully than most. 73 -Jim ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
Re: [Drakelist] Changing crystal frequency
Right, I had forgotten solder. It's all about mass! :-) 73, Garey - K4OAH Glen Allen, VA Drake 2-B, 2-C/2-NT, 4-A, 4-B, C-Line and TR-4/C Service Supplement CDs www.k4oah.com lee wrote: Rubbing solder on instead of graphite works a little better as the lead has more mass then graphite. Thus, the oscillations are slightly less and the lead can lower the frequency slightly more then graphite. Lee Bahr, w0vt -Original Message- From: Neil M Califano Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 7:05 PM To: Drakelist@zerobeat.net Subject: [Drakelist] Changing crystal frequency Someone I know used to write on crystals with a pencil claiming the frequency could be changed. Is this true or an urban legend, because graphite is crystalline? ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
Re: [Drakelist] Changing crystal frequency
Hi Guys, I *used* to believe that the hermetically sealed HC-6 type of crystals were impervious to aging changing frequency over time---until I started to seriously play around with the old Heathkit SB-line of receivers transmitters, that is! (THAT'S when I learned why the hairline cursor on the analog dial read-out is adjustable on those rigs! Hi Hi). Drake equipment from that same era is certainly not immune to the issue of aging crystals. Proof of the pudding is when you band jump, leaving the PTO alone: amazing how much the cursor has to be re-set on some bands to still be able to copy the 100-KHz crystal calibrator. But that's little hardship, both the Heath Drake engineers took that into account by way of incorporating these features. What can REALLY be vexing, though, is when the crystal(s) used in carrier-generating oscillator frequencies migrate: I once had an SB-102 transceiver that sounded very tinny nasal-sounding on LSB only---much to my chagrin, THAT carrier generating crystal had shifted just enough so as to put a goodly portion of my signal REMOVED from the passband of the IF filter! No amount of dial tweaking / cursor re-adjustment would cure THAT condition! : ) ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
Re: [Drakelist] Changing crystal frequency
Eddie - Yeah, but with the Drakes you not only get a 'tinny' sounding sideband, you can always choose the other 'bassy' sideband! :-) There is nothing that beats a NEW 'set' of crystals for a Drake receiver from ICM. You can just switch up the bands on the calibrator, and _may_ get a low audio tone on one or the other. 73, Garey - K4OAH Glen Allen, VA Drake 2-B, 2-C/2-NT, 4-A, 4-B, C-Line and TR-4/C Service Supplement CDs www.k4oah.com Eddy Swynar wrote: Drake equipment from that same era is certainly not immune to the issue of aging crystals. Proof of the pudding is when you band jump, leaving the PTO alone: amazing how much the cursor has to be re-set on some bands to still be able to copy the 100-KHz crystal calibrator. What can REALLY be vexing, though, is when the crystal(s) used in carrier-generating oscillator frequencies migrate: I once had an SB-102 transceiver that sounded very tinny nasal-sounding on LSB only---much to my chagrin, THAT carrier generating crystal had shifted just enough so as to put a goodly portion of my signal REMOVED from the passband of the IF filter! ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
Re: [Drakelist] Changing crystal frequency
What can REALLY be vexing, though, is when the crystal(s) used in carrier-generating oscillator frequencies migrate: I once had an SB-102 transceiver that sounded very tinny nasal-sounding on LSB only---much to my chagrin, THAT carrier generating crystal had shifted just enough so as to put a goodly portion of my signal REMOVED from the passband of the IF filter! Same issue I have with my Collins 75S-3C. LSB audio in the fixed BFO position does not have the same audio passband characteristics as USB. Even small changes (e.g., 50 Hz) can have a profound effect on the tone of the recovered audio. Unlike the R-4C where its two BFO crystals operate at 10x that of a 455 kHz BFO, the 75S-3 has no variable compensating caps to adjust the crystals' operating frequency. However, when switched to variable BFO mode, all is well and the audio tone can be adjusted with the BFO control. INRAD sells replacement BFO crystals for the 75S-3, so I'll likely try those and see if that improves the fixed BFO audio. Paul, W9AC ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
Re: [Drakelist] Drake crystals accuracy (Rick Thornton)
In 2010, I decided to get serious about getting my C-line back on the air.Apart from other issues, it had suffered some smoke damage from a house fire.I got the R-4C pretty much working on a couple of the bands but discovered that the 20m XTAL Osc. crystal was dead and 15m was off by 35kHz.I ordered both of them straightaway and then had second thoughts – if two crystals were bad, can the others be far behind?I called International Crystal Mfg (ICM) back and ordered the rest.It turned out to be a good move – all frequencies are right on the money and I now put crystal replacement on the same level as electrolytic capacitors in boat anchor restoration.ICM knows their onions – just tell them the radio's make, model, and frequency and they’ll do the rest.By the way, as for the smoke smell, I sent the radio off to WB4HFN for cleaning and alignment (my test equipment is out-of-calibration military surplus).The results were so astonishing that I sent the T-4XC off for the same treatment.Both are now in factory out-of-the-box condition. Full kudos to Ron! 73, Rick, KC1TA - Original Message - From: drakelist-requ...@zerobeat.net Sent: 09/17/11 10:29 AM To: drakelist@zerobeat.net Subject: Drakelist Digest, Vol 39, Issue 27 Send Drakelist mailing list submissions to drakelist@zerobeat.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to drakelist-requ...@zerobeat.net You can reach the person managing the list at drakelist-ow...@zerobeat.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of Drakelist digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: Drake crystals accuracy (Garey Barrell) 2. Re: Drake crystals accuracy (Jim Shorney) 3. Re: Drake crystals accuracy (lee) 4. Re: Changing crystal frequency (lee) 5. Re: Drake crystals accuracy (Ron) 6. Re: Drake crystals accuracy (Garey Barrell) 7. Re: Changing crystal frequency (Garey Barrell) 8. Re: Changing crystal frequency (Eddy Swynar) 9. Re: Changing crystal frequency (Garey Barrell) -- *** SNIP *** ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
Re: [Drakelist] Changing crystal frequency
On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 10:10:53 -0400, Eddy Swynar wrote: What can REALLY be vexing, though, is when the crystal(s) used in carrier-generating oscillator frequencies migrate: I once had an SB-102 transceiver that sounded very tinny nasal-sounding on LSB only---much to my chagrin, THAT carrier generating crystal had shifted just enough so as to put a goodly portion of my signal REMOVED from the passband of the IF filter! I always wondered why some manufacturers didn't put adjustment trimmers in the carrier oscillator curcuit. This is one of the most critical adjustments in a SSB radio, and I'm a-r enough about it these days that I check my frequency counter agianst a rubidium standard before I make adjustments. I actually added trimmer caps to the HW-101 that I had years ago so I could get it right. 73 -Jim -- Ham Radio NU0C Lincoln, Nebraska, U.S.S.A. TR7/RV7/R7A/L7, TR6/RV6, T4XC/R4C/L4B, NCL2000, SB104A, R390A, GT550A/RV550A, HyGain 3750, IBM PS/2 - all vintage, all the time! Give a man a URL, and he will learn for an hour; teach him to Google, and he will learn for a lifetime. HyGain 3750 User's Group - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HyGain_3750/ http://incolor.inetnebr.com/jshorney http://www.nebraskaghosts.org ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
Re: [Drakelist] Changing crystal frequency
The problem is that just about any trimmer cap you choose is going to be less 'stable' LONG TERM than the crystal. So the good news is that you can adjust the frequency, the bad news is that you're going to have to! No trimmer is going to be as stable as a good crystal, and since most electronic stuff doesn't LAST for 50 years, you're better off without a trimmer. 73, Garey - K4OAH Glen Allen, VA Drake 2-B, 2-C/2-NT, 4-A, 4-B, C-Line and TR-4/C Service Supplement CDs www.k4oah.com Jim Shorney wrote: On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 10:10:53 -0400, Eddy Swynar wrote: What can REALLY be vexing, though, is when the crystal(s) used in carrier-generating oscillator frequencies migrate: I once had an SB-102 transceiver that sounded very tinny nasal-sounding on LSB only---much to my chagrin, THAT carrier generating crystal had shifted just enough so as to put a goodly portion of my signal REMOVED from the passband of the IF filter! I always wondered why some manufacturers didn't put adjustment trimmers in the carrier oscillator curcuit. This is one of the most critical adjustments in a SSB radio, and I'm a-r enough about it these days that I check my frequency counter agianst a rubidium standard before I make adjustments. I actually added trimmer caps to the HW-101 that I had years ago so I could get it right. ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
Re: [Drakelist] Changing crystal frequency
One other thing as far as Carrier Oscillator crystals. With a little care, you can almost always set the frequency 'better' by ear for best audio, especially since the _CRYSTALS_ inside filters also change, altering the overall shape of the passband slightly. Especially with the Drake where even the BEST adjustment is a compromise. I'd be willing to bet that very few radios would be at their optimum 'sound quality' by setting the CO crystal to a specific frequency, no matter how many places came after the decimal point! :-) 73, Garey - K4OAH Glen Allen, VA Drake 2-B, 2-C/2-NT, 4-A, 4-B, C-Line and TR-4/C Service Supplement CDs www.k4oah.com Jim Shorney wrote: On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 10:10:53 -0400, Eddy Swynar wrote: What can REALLY be vexing, though, is when the crystal(s) used in carrier-generating oscillator frequencies migrate: I once had an SB-102 transceiver that sounded very tinny nasal-sounding on LSB only---much to my chagrin, THAT carrier generating crystal had shifted just enough so as to put a goodly portion of my signal REMOVED from the passband of the IF filter! I always wondered why some manufacturers didn't put adjustment trimmers in the carrier oscillator curcuit. This is one of the most critical adjustments in a SSB radio, and I'm a-r enough about it these days that I check my frequency counter agianst a rubidium standard before I make adjustments. I actually added trimmer caps to the HW-101 that I had years ago so I could get it right. ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
Re: [Drakelist] Changing crystal frequency
On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 11:27:58 -0400, Garey Barrell wrote: The problem is that just about any trimmer cap you choose is going to be less 'stable' LONG TERM than the crystal. So the good news is that you can adjust the frequency, the bad news is that you're going to have to! No trimmer is going to be as stable as a good crystal, and since most electronic stuff doesn't LAST for 50 years, you're better off without a trimmer. Are you telling me that you only touch up your alignments every 50 years? :O 73 -Jim -- Ham Radio NU0C Lincoln, Nebraska, U.S.S.A. TR7/RV7/R7A/L7, TR6/RV6, T4XC/R4C/L4B, NCL2000, SB104A, R390A, GT550A/RV550A, HyGain 3750, IBM PS/2 - all vintage, all the time! Give a man a URL, and he will learn for an hour; teach him to Google, and he will learn for a lifetime. HyGain 3750 User's Group - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HyGain_3750/ http://incolor.inetnebr.com/jshorney http://www.nebraskaghosts.org ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
Re: [Drakelist] Changing crystal frequency
GM All: Interesting that my FT-890 just off the repair bench has the capability to offset the transmit carrier relative to the passband + or - individually for USB and LSB. One does this by monitoring the signal in the internal monitor or a second rx to adjust the tx audio. Since the rig is a master reference osc/PLL the offsets are in memory. This is instead of having a true audio equalizer on board. Actually works pretty well except that it can't boost or cut at both ends of the bandwidth. Does work well for fixing a bassy or trebley mic. Same thing that Garey is saying tho. best adjustment is a compromise by ear. to se the carrier point. I have a great counter with TCXO reference and oven, but final set points on ALL my alignments are done by ear. FWIW Curt KU8L Garey Barrell wrote: One other thing as far as Carrier Oscillator crystals. With a little care, you can almost always set the frequency 'better' by ear for best audio, especially since the _CRYSTALS_ inside filters also change, altering the overall shape of the passband slightly. Especially with the Drake where even the BEST adjustment is a compromise. I'd be willing to bet that very few radios would be at their optimum 'sound quality' by setting the CO crystal to a specific frequency, no matter how many places came after the decimal point! :-) 73, Garey - K4OAH Glen Allen, VA Drake 2-B, 2-C/2-NT, 4-A, 4-B, C-Line and TR-4/C Service Supplement CDs www.k4oah.com Jim Shorney wrote: On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 10:10:53 -0400, Eddy Swynar wrote: What can REALLY be vexing, though, is when the crystal(s) used in carrier-generating oscillator frequencies migrate: I once had an SB-102 transceiver that sounded very tinny nasal-sounding on LSB only---much to my chagrin, THAT carrier generating crystal had shifted just enough so as to put a goodly portion of my signal REMOVED from the passband of the IF filter! I always wondered why some manufacturers didn't put adjustment trimmers in the carrier oscillator curcuit. This is one of the most critical adjustments in a SSB radio, and I'm a-r enough about it these days that I check my frequency counter agianst a rubidium standard before I make adjustments. I actually added trimmer caps to the HW-101 that I had years ago so I could get it right. ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
[Drakelist] Growing crystals
Aren't crystals quartz, how do you grow them? ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
Re: [Drakelist] Growing crystals
A tiny seed crystal is suspended in a super-saturated solution. That is how they are pure and the molecules are all aligned. One of the many links on the subject: http://chemistry.about.com/cs/growingcrystals/a/aa012604.htm 73, Bob WW3QB Aren't crystals quartz, how do you grow them? ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
Re: [Drakelist] Growing crystals
Try googling the subject. Al, W8UT www.boatanchors.org www.hammarlund.info There is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats Ratty, to Mole On 9/17/2011 1:19 PM, Neil M Califano wrote: Aren't crystals quartz, how do you grow them? _ ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
Re: [Drakelist] Growing crystals
Most quartz today is 'grown' rather than mined. It is grown under high heat and pressure in an autoclave (pressurized heater!) The process is about the same as the 'natural' method, but speeded up. I think the process was 'invented' during WW II when natural quartz was no longer available from Brazil, and large quantities were needed, as just about EVERY radio needed at least one. A Google search will tell you more if interested. 73, Garey - K4OAH Glen Allen, VA Drake 2-B, 2-C/2-NT, 4-A, 4-B, C-Line and TR-4/C Service Supplement CDs www.k4oah.com Neil M Califano wrote: Aren't crystals quartz, how do you grow them? ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
Re: [Drakelist] Growing crystals
On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 10:19:14 -0700 (PDT), Neil M Califano wrote: Aren't crystals quartz, how do you grow them? When I was a kid, we learned how to grow salt crystals in the refrigerator as a science experiment: http://chemistry.about.com/od/growingcrystals/ht/saltcrystals.htm http://britton.disted.camosun.bc.ca/saltcrystals.html 73 -Jim -- Ham Radio NU0C Lincoln, Nebraska, U.S.S.A. TR7/RV7/R7A/L7, TR6/RV6, T4XC/R4C/L4B, NCL2000, SB104A, R390A, GT550A/RV550A, HyGain 3750, IBM PS/2 - all vintage, all the time! Give a man a URL, and he will learn for an hour; teach him to Google, and he will learn for a lifetime. HyGain 3750 User's Group - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HyGain_3750/ http://incolor.inetnebr.com/jshorney http://www.nebraskaghosts.org ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
[Drakelist] FS B-Line
Drake B-Line (R4B, T4XB, MS-4, AC-4, 160M xtal, manuals and new interconnect cables). In very nice condition. $750 plus shipping from MD. Pictures: http://n3jpu.99k.org/pages/images/forsale/TX4B.JPG http://n3jpu.99k.org/pages/images/forsale/TX4Brear.JPG http://n3jpu.99k.org/pages/images/forsale/R4B.JPG http://n3jpu.99k.org/pages/images/forsale/R4Brear.JPG http://n3jpu.99k.org/pages/images/forsale/MS4.JPG http://n3jpu.99k.org/pages/images/forsale/Manuals.JPG Gary Mitchelson N3JPU Davidsonville, MD FM18 http://www.mitchelson.org/ ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
