Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Legally Identifying?

[John Hays]

On Mar 24, 2009, at 10:36 AM, Chip wrote:

> With D-STAR, is it necessary to verbally identify transmissions with  
> your callsign? My question assumes that the MYCALL field is  
> correctly set of course. A local friend and I have frequent simplex  
> conversations and have been saying our callsigns to be safe, but  
> since the radio is encoding our calls, is it actually necessary?
> -Chip Legett, WX9EMT
>
>









If you remember that D-STAR is a "data emission" that happens to carry  
voice, then the regulation is pretty clear - Part 97.119b3

http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/news/part97/b.html#119

Though many of us still ID on voice out of habit and so that we are  
not out of practice we hop back to analog.

John Hays
Amateur Radio: K7VE
j...@hays.org



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Legally Identifying?

[Mathaeus (Matthew Fonner)]

Other than the fact that *my* interpretation of the FCC rules say that 
it should be verbal:
People who are using the IC2200H do not get any display other than the 
frequency they are on.  No scrolling IDs, no scrolling text, nothing.  
So they would have no idea who they were talking to without the verbal ID.

Matt / N3WNX

Chip wrote:
> With D-STAR, is it necessary to verbally identify transmissions with your 
> callsign? My question assumes that the MYCALL field is correctly set of 
> course. A local friend and I have frequent simplex conversations and have 
> been saying our callsigns to be safe, but since the radio is encoding our 
> calls, is it actually necessary?
> -Chip Legett, WX9EMT
>   

RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Legally Identifying?

[Nate Duehr]

I drop back to common sense on this question:  

 

1.   What is the purpose of an ID?  So the FCC or anyone listening can
contact you if your transmissions are causing a problem.

2.   Can the FCC or anyone else figure out who you are if they need to,
from the full content of your transmission if you don't ID in voice?

 

I say yes, they can.

 

Someone else pointed out that one of the rigs offered by one manufacturer
can't see the callsigns, but that's a limitation of the rig, not the
protocol.   

 

You're still sending it, even if their rig can't see it. your callsign is
there in the on-air emission.

 

Nate WY0X

 

From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Chip
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 11:37 AM
To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Legally Identifying?

 

With D-STAR, is it necessary to verbally identify transmissions with your
callsign? My question assumes that the MYCALL field is correctly set of
course. A local friend and I have frequent simplex conversations and have
been saying our callsigns to be safe, but since the radio is encoding our
calls, is it actually necessary?
-Chip Legett, WX9EMT





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Legally Identifying?

[Ian Foord]

I am new to Dstar ..4x days but I to said the same thing . And I say No
As the only radio that will hear you will also "see you " 
so that is your ID . As the FCC / ofcom (UK)  will only have an icom 
like we are using and will see the same .  Under UK law we only have
to id in the same mode we are using. Are repeaters (Dstar) do not id in cw
or any think other than the data id . Case closed I think;
Ian 
G0TJH 
---Original Message---
 
From: Nate Duehr
Date: 03/24/09 23:04:46
To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Legally Identifying?
 
I drop back to common sense on this question: 

Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Legally Identifying?

[Gary Pearce KN4AQ]

At 01:36 PM 3/24/2009, you wrote:

>With D-STAR, is it necessary to verbally identify transmissions with your 
>callsign? My question assumes that the MYCALL field is correctly set of 
>course. A local friend and I have frequent simplex conversations and have 
>been saying our callsigns to be safe, but since the radio is encoding our 
>calls, is it actually necessary?
>-Chip Legett, WX9EMT

Let's check the rules:


§97.119 Station identification.

(a) Each amateur station... must transmit its assigned call sign on its 
transmitting channel at the end of each communication, and at least every 
ten minutes during a communication, for the purpose of clearly making the 
source of the transmissions from the station known to those receiving the 
transmissions. No station may transmit unidentified communications or 
signals, or transmit as the station call sign, any call sign not authorized 
to the station.

(b) The call sign must be transmitted with an emission authorized for the 
transmitting channel in one of the following ways:

(1) By a CW emission. When keyed by an automatic device used only for 
identification, the speed must not exceed 20 words per minute;
(2) By a phone emission in the English language. Use of a phonetic alphabet 
as an aid for correct station identification is encouraged;
(3) By a RTTY emission using a specified digital code when all or part of 
the communications are transmitted by a RTTY or data emission;
(4) By an image emission conforming to the applicable transmission 
standards, either color or monochrome, of §73.682(a) of the FCC Rules when 
all or part of the communications are transmitted in the same image emission.


Clear as mud when applied to D-STAR?  I think I've heard that DV is a 
"phone" emission. But it carries data, too. It's two mints in one!  But it 
sure isn't RTTY (a 70 year old, essentially obsolete mode that occupies WAY 
too much space in the rules while modern technology has to squeeze in 
between the cracks).

To be safe - and also to assist those of us driving along the highway and 
can't stare at the display - I'd continue to give a verbal call sign.

But to challenge the obsolete rules, I'd take the liberal interpretation 
and say the data carries the ID.

My 2 cents

73,
Gary KN4AQ

ARVN: Amateur Radio//Video News
Gary Pearce KN4AQ
508 Spencer Crest Ct.
Cary, NC 27513
kn...@arvideonews.com
919-380-9944
www.ARVideoNews.com  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Legally Identifying?

[AB8XA]

On Mar 24, 2009, at 17:06 PM, Gary Pearce KN4AQ wrote:

> Let's check the rules:

That's a good thing, since I'm new to D-Star.

> §97.119 Station identification.
>
> (a) Each amateur station... must transmit its assigned call sign on  
> its
> transmitting channel at the end of each communication,

How does D-Star know when you've ended a communication?  Just from my  
short period of observation, the digital ID is transmitted at the  
start of each transmission.  Do proponents of not IDing by voice dead  
key the rig at the end of each call?

> and at least every
> ten minutes during a communication,

Does D-Star do this (I haven't observed)

> (b) The call sign must be transmitted with an emission authorized  
> for the
> transmitting channel in one of the following ways:
>
> (1) By a CW emission. When keyed by an automatic device used only for
> identification, the speed must not exceed 20 words per minute;
> (2) By a phone emission in the English language. Use of a phonetic  
> alphabet
> as an aid for correct station identification is encouraged;
> (3) By a RTTY emission using a specified digital code when all or  
> part of
> the communications are transmitted by a RTTY or data emission;
> (4) By an image emission conforming to the applicable transmission
> standards, either color or monochrome, of §73.682(a) of the FCC  
> Rules when
> all or part of the communications are transmitted in the same image  
> emission.

It does none of these automatically, but then neither does PSK and  
other data modes

> 
> Clear as mud when applied to D-STAR?  I think I've heard that DV is a
> "phone" emission. But it carries data, too. It's two mints in one!

Then perhaps it should be required to ID on both.
>
> To be safe - and also to assist those of us driving along the  
> highway and
> can't stare at the display - I'd continue to give a verbal call sign.

Agreed.

> But to challenge the obsolete rules, I'd take the liberal  
> interpretation
> and say the data carries the ID.

I wouldn't take that interpretation, especially if it doesn't  
automatically ID at the end of a call.

--
Moe

Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Legally Identifying?

[Michael A. Waldron]

AB8XA wrote:
> On Mar 24, 2009, at 17:06 PM, Gary Pearce KN4AQ wrote:
> 
> That's a good thing, since I'm new to D-Star.
> 


I read it that it says you must transmit your call sign with an emission 
authorized for the transmitting channel, and then it gives 4 examples. If you 
read it differently you MIGHT have an issue here, but really you should check 
out the rules on Packet identification. I do not have Part 97 handy but I'm 
pretty sure that they state that if you are using a digital mode your 
identification can be sent in the same digital mode as if it were voice 
pursuant to §97.119. 

Regardless of if you care to admit it or believe it, D-Star is NOT a voice 
mode. D-Star is data, specifically it's 4800 baud GMSK data. The data we choose 
to send over the channel is contains voice, but the transmission is GMSK data 
(emission type F2D iirc). We treat it as voice because that's what we use it 
for, but the underlying modulation type is what matters.

Now, I still ID, and I recommend to anyone who asks that they do the same. Why 
not? There are many more analog machines than digital and I personally feel 
that it's just a good idea to stay in practice. 

Stay within the spirit of amateur radio, have fun and advance the art of 
communications. Let all this petty arguing fall by the side of the road. It's 
doing none of us any good and it's not good for the adoption of D-Star as 
whole. 

Remember, don't feed the trolls.

-Mike

-- 
Michael A. Waldron, AE0MW
PGP: http://www.mikew.org/mypgpkey.txt


[Moderator - Let's bring this Identification thread to and end now please]

Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Legally Identifying?

[larry allen]

Dstar id's each time you press your ptt button
Larry ve3fxq
It should also be pointed out that a form of dstar has been in commercial use 
for at least 10 years... We are way behind the times...

Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Legally Identifying?

[Mathaeus (Matthew Fonner)]

larry allen wrote:
> Dstar id's each time you press your ptt button
> Larry ve3fxq
> It should also be pointed out that a form of dstar has been in commercial use 
> for at least 10 years... We are way behind the times...
>   
Again, though, what about those of us who are using IC2200H machines 
which get no information on the screen?  If someone hits their PTT to 
ID, all I get is the equivalent of a kerchunk of the system.

Matt / N3WNX

Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Legally Identifying?

[Mathaeus (Matthew Fonner)]

Nate Duehr wrote:
> I drop back to common sense on this question:  
>
>  
>
> 1.   What is the purpose of an ID?  So the FCC or anyone listening can
> contact you if your transmissions are causing a problem.
>
> 2.   Can the FCC or anyone else figure out who you are if they need to,
> from the full content of your transmission if you don't ID in voice?
>
>  
>
> I say yes, they can.
>
>  
>
> Someone else pointed out that one of the rigs offered by one manufacturer
> can't see the callsigns, but that's a limitation of the rig, not the
> protocol.   
>
>  
>
> You're still sending it, even if their rig can't see it. your callsign is
> there in the on-air emission.
>
>  
>
> Nate WY0X
>
>   
_*Just to play devil's advocate:*_
Based on your text above, #2 states that anyone can figure out who you 
are by your transmission.  Thus, based on the rig alone, not everyone can.
I know many people who cannot afford the more expensive D-Star radios 
(and at this point in time, only 1 manufacturer makes D-Star radios), 
and therefore they cannot tell by the data-stream who is talking.  To 
those people a final push of the PTT to ID is like "kerchunking" the 
repeater.

Personally, I have a 2200H, and an 800H...the 800H is in the car.  So, 
when at home on the "base" radio, I have no idea who is talking unless I 
hear a call sign.

Yet, I do understand your point.
--see header for idit should be in there

Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Legally Identifying?

[Michael A. Waldron]

I humbly submit that your lack of ability to copy information does not have 
anything to do with me fulfilling my legal requirement to send it.

How many people do you know who cannot copy the CW ID on your local FM repeater?

Again, It's a good idea to ID verbally anyway, but it is not required.

-Mike

Mathaeus (Matthew Fonner) wrote:
> Again, though, what about those of us who are using IC2200H machines
> which get no information on the screen? If someone hits their PTT to
> ID, all I get is the equivalent of a kerchunk of the system.
> 
> Matt / N3WNX


-- 
Michael A. Waldron, AE0MW
PGP: http://www.mikew.org/mypgpkey.txt

[MODERATOR - Lets End This Thread Now Please]

Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Legally Identifying?

[Nate Duehr]

On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 18:02:43 -0400, "Mathaeus (Matthew Fonner)"
 
> Again, though, what about those of us who are using IC2200H machines 
> which get no information on the screen?  If someone hits their PTT to 
> ID, all I get is the equivalent of a kerchunk of the system.

Legally: We're not responsible for ID'ing in a way to get around the
brokenness of your radio.  We are sending our ID.  You can't see it? 
Time to upgrade... 

Ethically: I'll keep ID'ing JUST so the tiny fraction of people running
IC2200H's who can't see it on their radios will feel warm and fuzzy.  

Practical Jokingly: We'll play with our callsigns -- putting messages in
the callsign fields about you -- and make jokes about it, and you'll
never see it!  :-)

(BIG GRIN.  Just kidding on that last one.)

Nate WY0X
--
  Nate Duehr
  n...@natetech.com

RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Legally Identifying?

[Barry A. Wilson]

I think everyone should be more concerned about their own identification and
not be so quick to judge others. If you’re in the United States

and you’re a U.S. Government Admin Law Judge or system trustee you aren’t
going to be judging these matters in the first place.

 

That being said this of course doesn’t mean we can’t have our own opinions.
Mine is below. 

 

Now on to Moe’s final comment


“I wouldn't take that interpretation, especially if it doesn't 
automatically ID at the end of a call.”



I don’t know too many operators that utter the last thing out of their mouth
at the end of a series of transmissions is their call sign!

Most operators add niceties like 73, closing comments, operating signals
like QRT after giving their call. In CW &  RTTY we use

Prosigns  K, SK, VA or AR 

 

So as long as your last transmission contains your call sign then haven’t
you properly identified?  So your last D-STAR transmission

contains your call sign if you properly program your call in the MYCALL and
don’t do something stupid like the lid in Denver

that continues to use RG8U. 

 

I would argue that if your placing information in a transmission which by
design is suppose to contain your legal call or during an

operation which contains a tactical call sign assigned to a group while the
net is using legal calls then you’re in violation of the intent of

the law and good amateur operating practices.  

 

§ 97.119   Station identification.

(a) Each amateur station, except a space station or telecommand station,
must transmit its assigned call sign on its transmitting channel at the end
of each communication, and at least every 10 minutes during a communication,
for the purpose of clearly making the source of the transmissions from the
station known to those receiving the transmissions. No station may transmit
unidentified communications or signals, or transmit as the station call
sign, any call sign not authorized to the station.

So if contrary to design the operator places anything other than their legal
call sign in the MYCALL I say they are not operating with Good Amateur Radio
Practices. For privacy you may choose not to put anything in the MYCALL
field and only voice ID but then you shouldn’t be allowed access through a
repeater or gateway. In other words keep your operation on simplex so as not
to put others at possible legal violations.

 

Perhaps we as a collective group need to institute some self governing and
“require” only legal calls be in the MYCALL field or remove the user from
access through local repeaters and gateways. This can be accomplished by the
trustee enforcing operating agreements to access local repeaters and
gateways or by the K5TIT group which operates a trust server most systems
use for routing. If we squelch lids now perhaps calls like RG8U will fade
away. 

 

 

Barry A. Wilson KAØBBQ

D-STAR  UR=/WØCDS  B

 

 

   DD A 1299.9000 RPS

DV A 1283.9625 -12.000

DV B 446.9625 -5.

DV C 145.2500 +0.6000

 

 





 

From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of AB8XA
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 5:40 AM
To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Legally Identifying?

 


> 
> Clear as mud when applied to D-STAR? I think I've heard that DV is a
> "phone" emission. But it carries data, too. It's two mints in one!

Then perhaps it should be required to ID on both.
>
> To be safe - and also to assist those of us driving along the 
> highway and
> can't stare at the display - I'd continue to give a verbal call sign.

Agreed.

> But to challenge the obsolete rules, I'd take the liberal 
> interpretation
> and say the data carries the ID.

I wouldn't take that interpretation, especially if it doesn't 
automatically ID at the end of a call.

--
Moe



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Legally Identifying?

[Woodrick, Ed]

IDs in the US are, as well as I can remember, required once every 10 minutes 
and at the end of a conversation.

There is absolutely nothing that say that I can't get on the radio and call you 
by saying "Hey Matthew are you there" and then after we've been talking 10 
minutes, adding my callsign.

But common practice is something else.

Ed WA4YIH

Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Legally Identifying? [US Topic]

[John Hays]

Yep, the 2200H is a very bad implementation of D-STAR (besides user  
interface, it cannot do optimum channel spacing because of the lack of  
6.25 kHz steps) but that doesn't change the LEGAL ID requirement,  
which is met by the digital ID in the signal.  I sometimes don't hear  
the audio ID of stations on FM, so I might say "Who is this?" (Problem  
solved)  Contrary to common opinion, the ID is for regulatory purposes  
and not for the casual listener or receiving station (unless the  
receiving station is an official enforcement station)  Many years ago,  
stations had to keep logs, including the callsign of stations which  
they communicated with -- again to help regulators to patch together  
information in an enforcement action, those requirements have been  
largely removed for a long, long time.

I once heard an FCC official lamenting the Amateur Operator's penchant  
for "ownership" of a callsign, to the FCC its just a registration  
number, like a driver's license.  Most automobile drivers don't make a  
big deal out of that number, or even their auto license plat number,  
unless its a vanity plate.

I used to frequent an FM analog repeater (before moving away), where  
everyone knew each other pretty well outside of amateur radio.  We  
certainly attempted to follow the LEGAL ID requirements, but exchanges  
usually consisted of using a person's "given" or "nick" name, such as  
"Over to you Bill" - it really was much more natural and "friendly" --  
once someone complained to an OO that a couple of stations had missed  
the 10 minute requirement for ID (it happens).  For several days, that  
repeater was over ID'ed to silliness.

Nobody is saying you can't or shouldn't use an audible ID when  
operating voice on DV D-STAR.  We are just saying that the LEGAL ID is  
met by the digital ID.  Most people I've talked to on D-STAR still  
drop in the audible ID, if for no other reason than out of force of  
habit. Also when a station IDs on voice, usually the other(s) do  
likewise.

Just don't get riled up if someone chooses to allow the digital ID to  
cover the LEGAL ID.  If your rig or situation doesn't allow you to  
copy their callsign, and you want to know, just ask.

On Mar 25, 2009, at 3:02 PM, Mathaeus (Matthew Fonner) wrote:
>
> Again, though, what about those of us who are using IC2200H machines
> which get no information on the screen? If someone hits their PTT to
> ID, all I get is the equivalent of a kerchunk of the system.
>
> Matt / N3WNX
>
>











John Hays
Amateur Radio: K7VE
j...@hays.org



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]