Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?

2012-06-06 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV 



DX Hogs will be DX Hogs no matter what.  The idea is that they should
not be *encouraged or rewarded* for acting like DX Hogs but publishing
a *Leader Board* as if such behavior made the operator a *champion*.

I like the idea of replacing the Leaderboard matrix with a flat table
that shows each band the DXpedition worked and each mode along a single
line.  Once a station has made QSOs on all 9 (or 10) bands and in all
three modes (CW, Phone, RTTY), their "count" stops increasing.  I'd
even go to the extent that once a station has been worked on all 9
bands and twice on each mode (11 slots) their "Leaderboard" standing
starts to DECREASE.

There is no major operating award that requires working a country on
every band *and* every mode.  To do so with a major DXPedition and in
doing so deny other worthy "competitors" the opportunity to work a
new band *or* a new mode is DX Hoggery.

The European RTTY pile-ups for 7O6T were slopping time on the hog farm
- there is no other way to put it.

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV


On 6/6/2012 1:02 PM, Victor Goncharsky US5WE wrote:


I was making such bands/modes tables filling them by hand long before
the computer era.
Still doing this for major DXpeditions and really surprised of the
public excitement of such a simple thing.
Will someone prohibit me to print this SSB/CW 160-10 form for the next
major operation?
NO.
Will someone prohibit me to work the above mentioned operation on the
bands I need?
Again NO.
So, what's this discussion is all about?

On Tue, 05 Jun 2012 21:28:32 -, Joe Subich, W4TV 
wrote:>



On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:

I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition,
they're usually begging.


You obviously did not attempt to work 7O6T on RTTY. The Europeans
monopolized the few available RTTY band slots and even chased 7O6T
off RTTY many times in the last days of the DXpedition.

Quite simply, Leaderboards as currently structured encourage rampant
DX Hoggery and have no place in radiosport.

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:






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RE: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?

2012-06-06 Thread Dave White 
 
Hi Victor
I think it's more about whether or not the *published presence* on a website of 
a 'leader board' encourages people to be more competitive (with all the bad 
behaviours that competitiveness brings out in some people) and therefore leads 
to bigger and nastier pileups as some folks have to beat the next guy no matter 
what.  

Personally I'm not sure that they do since a**holes behave true to type anyway.

Some people in this group have had Ham licences since Adam was a lad.  If you 
listen to some of them around here you'd think that their licence was 
personally signed by Queen Victoria.  I'm a relative newcomer only having been 
on the air for 22 years but in that time it feels like pileups have become 
bigger and more aggressive.  It feels like operating standards have fallen (cue 
reprise of code vs no-code debate) and the amount of deliberate QRM has 
increased - particularly in Europe.  Sometimes I'm really glad that there's 20 
miles of water between England and mainland Europe so that at least I can 
disown Europe.

How does the situation look from the other end of Europe?  Do you feel like the 
bands have become like a combination of Fraggle Rock and the Chimps' Tea Party 
at London Zoo?

Cheers
Dave SM/G0OIL

 

- Original Message -
From: Victor Goncharsky US5WE 
Sent: 06 June 2012 19:02
To: dx-chat@njdxa.org 
Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?


I was making such bands/modes tables filling them by hand long before the  
computer era.
Still doing this for major DXpeditions and really surprised of the public  
excitement of such a simple thing.
Will someone prohibit me to print this SSB/CW 160-10 form for the next  
major operation?
NO.
Will someone prohibit me to work the above mentioned operation on the  
bands I need?
Again NO.
So, what's this discussion is all about?

On Tue, 05 Jun 2012 21:28:32 -, Joe Subich, W4TV   
wrote:>
>
>
> On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:
>> I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition,
>> they're usually begging.
>
> You obviously did not attempt to work 7O6T on RTTY.  The Europeans
> monopolized the few available RTTY band slots and even chased 7O6T
> off RTTY many times in the last days of the DXpedition.
>
> Quite simply, Leaderboards as currently structured encourage rampant
> DX Hoggery and have no place in radiosport.
>
> 73,
>
>... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:


-- 
73 Vic US5WE/K1WE (UW5W in VHF contests) KN29AU
UARL VHF committee
Chairman, UARL Lvov Branch "LKK"
Moderator, UARL VHF portal http://www.vhfdx.at.ua
DXCC card checker in Ukraine
-
Zorg: If you want something done, do it yourself. Yep!


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Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?

2012-06-06 Thread KE1F Lou 


This band / mode business is not new.

I have a booklet, titled :MULTI BAND DXCC "INSTA-GRESS" (Permanent Dx 
Record for all DX Awards).

This booklet is copyrighted in 1981.
This is an all paper pencil system, pre-date the Z80 Timex computer.
According to the manual pencil entries I worked 148 countries on 10 
meter by June 6, 1981.
Also, I worked East Germany on every band from 10 to 80 and both Cw and 
phone on each band.

So I guess, I am an early DX hog.
I love the on line log. No need for "insurance QSO".

73   Lou   KE1F


On 6/6/2012 9:43 AM, Zack Widup wrote:

Good points, Dave. If a DX station is calling CQ and not getting any
answers (that he can hear) I would have no problem with calling them.
Also, the on-line logs most likely DO reduce a lot of traffic from
people who aren't sure they have worked them until they find the QSO
in the log. For the current A5A DXpedition, Jon KL2A has noted there
have been several pirates active. I even heard one myself, on 30
meters a week ago. Jon even posted a spot on packet that it was a
pirate while the pirate was operating!

I remember some years ago DJ5CQ (now an SK) did quite a few Pacific
operations. There were no on-line logs back then. I worked him twice
on a couple bands as insurance contacts. When I got my cards, he had
included a card with a funny-looking creature sketched on it that said
I had worked them more than once on a band and not to do that again.

73, Zack W9SZ

On 6/6/12, DAVE WHITE  wrote:

That's exactly what I do, Zack

Unless there's some organisational cock-up (on my part - I don't use a
computer log) then I'll work a DXpedition if possible once on each band and
once on each mode.  I won't work them on a band/mode if I already have that
one confirmed.  The thought process is specifically one of "if I work them
on xxx and I don't need it then that's someone else who's not able to work
them".

The only time I'll make an exception is if the DXpedition is calling CQ and
no-one is answering them

I think that G7VJR raises a good point.  The presence of an online log stops
the temptation for insurance QSOs so in that sense it's good.  The
propagation tools are always useful if like me you work long hours and have
to make use of small time slots for calling DX.  But in truth I think that
ill-mannered selfish pigs will always be ill-mannered selfish pigs and
certain big gun DX Hogs (I could name them in G-land but of course won't)
will trample over others, calling and calling and trying to work a
Dxpedition on every band/slot whether or not there's a leader board online.
After all, they''ve been behaving like that for years anyway...

cheers

Dave G0OIL
   - Original Message -----
   From: Zack Widup
   To: dx-chat
   Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 10:59 PM
   Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?



   Someone has pointed out recently that for DXCC requirements, you could get
by with 9 QSO's which would cover 160 through 10 meters. You only need one
QSO each on CW, SSB and RTTY, so you could either fit them in amongst your 9
QSO's, or make a total of 11 QSO's to satisfy DXCC requirements.

   The Leaderboards seem to be the things that are inspiring people to make
27 QSO's with the DX. I'm sure some of these stations that are coming out on
top of the leadeboards have worked some of these stations previously on some
of those band/modes, so it becomes mostly a thing of greed and ego.

   73, Zack W9SZ



   On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:





 On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:

   I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition,
   they're usually begging.



 You obviously did not attempt to work 7O6T on RTTY.  The Europeans
 monopolized the few available RTTY band slots and even chased 7O6T
 off RTTY many times in the last days of the DXpedition.

 Quite simply, Leaderboards as currently structured encourage rampant
 DX Hoggery and have no place in radiosport.

 73,

  ... Joe, W4TV



 On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:

   I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition,
   they're usually begging.

   Those who couldn't make a QSO probably couldn't make a QSO on a
   completely clear band anyway. There is only so much you can work with
   a dipole and 100 watts.

   And finally, DXing is competitive.You can be a good sport but you
   don't have to put yourself at a disadvantage to make others feel
   better.

   Ryan, N2RJ

   On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV
wrote:




 I think KQ8M's first comment in response to G7VJR's editorial is
 on point.  Clublog's "Leaderboards" should be modified to stop
 counting at 11 "band slots.&quo

Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?

2012-06-06 Thread Victor Goncharsky US5WE 


I was making such bands/modes tables filling them by hand long before the  
computer era.
Still doing this for major DXpeditions and really surprised of the public  
excitement of such a simple thing.
Will someone prohibit me to print this SSB/CW 160-10 form for the next  
major operation?

NO.
Will someone prohibit me to work the above mentioned operation on the  
bands I need?

Again NO.
So, what's this discussion is all about?

On Tue, 05 Jun 2012 21:28:32 -, Joe Subich, W4TV   
wrote:>



On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:

I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition,
they're usually begging.


You obviously did not attempt to work 7O6T on RTTY.  The Europeans
monopolized the few available RTTY band slots and even chased 7O6T
off RTTY many times in the last days of the DXpedition.

Quite simply, Leaderboards as currently structured encourage rampant
DX Hoggery and have no place in radiosport.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:



--
73 Vic US5WE/K1WE (UW5W in VHF contests) KN29AU
UARL VHF committee
Chairman, UARL Lvov Branch "LKK"
Moderator, UARL VHF portal http://www.vhfdx.at.ua
DXCC card checker in Ukraine
-
Zorg: If you want something done, do it yourself. Yep!


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RE: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?

2012-06-06 Thread Peter W2IRT 

I chase them across all bands/modes for the same reason that climbers climb
mountains; because they're there. I'm not going to interfere with anybody
else's business of working DX and I will resent anybody poking their nose
into mine. So long as everybody is operating legally I'm good with however
it plays out. 

The reality is, it's up to the DX how they want to run their operation. If
they choose to use Clublog then they'll have to expect greenie-chasers.
There's nothing stopping a DXpedition from having a strict rule in place and
publicized everywhere: Work us once per band only: Anything beyond will be
N.I.L. Or even once per mode, or once, period. That's their call and it'll
be up to us to abide by their decisions.

Maybe the Clublog guys can come up with a modified version that shows all 9
or 10 bands, by themselves, then all 3 modes, by themselves not in a matrix
format. And no leaderboards. If a DXpedition doesn't want dupes then it's
their decision and we must support that. On the other hand, if it's a T32C
or HK0NA, I'm all for popping them on as many combinations as they operate. 

 - pjd


-Original Message-
From: kf...@njdxa.org [mailto:kf...@njdxa.org] On Behalf Of Paul M Dunphy
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 2:55 PM
To: NJDXA DX Chat
Subject: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?


 G7VJR's point of view (ClubLog creator and T32C participant):

http://g7vjr.org/2012/06/expedition-leaderboards-good-or-bad/

73, Paul VE1DX



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Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?

2012-06-06 Thread Zack Widup 

Good points, Dave. If a DX station is calling CQ and not getting any
answers (that he can hear) I would have no problem with calling them.
Also, the on-line logs most likely DO reduce a lot of traffic from
people who aren't sure they have worked them until they find the QSO
in the log. For the current A5A DXpedition, Jon KL2A has noted there
have been several pirates active. I even heard one myself, on 30
meters a week ago. Jon even posted a spot on packet that it was a
pirate while the pirate was operating!

I remember some years ago DJ5CQ (now an SK) did quite a few Pacific
operations. There were no on-line logs back then. I worked him twice
on a couple bands as insurance contacts. When I got my cards, he had
included a card with a funny-looking creature sketched on it that said
I had worked them more than once on a band and not to do that again.

73, Zack W9SZ

On 6/6/12, DAVE WHITE  wrote:
>
> That's exactly what I do, Zack
>
> Unless there's some organisational cock-up (on my part - I don't use a
> computer log) then I'll work a DXpedition if possible once on each band and
> once on each mode.  I won't work them on a band/mode if I already have that
> one confirmed.  The thought process is specifically one of "if I work them
> on xxx and I don't need it then that's someone else who's not able to work
> them".
>
> The only time I'll make an exception is if the DXpedition is calling CQ and
> no-one is answering them
>
> I think that G7VJR raises a good point.  The presence of an online log stops
> the temptation for insurance QSOs so in that sense it's good.  The
> propagation tools are always useful if like me you work long hours and have
> to make use of small time slots for calling DX.  But in truth I think that
> ill-mannered selfish pigs will always be ill-mannered selfish pigs and
> certain big gun DX Hogs (I could name them in G-land but of course won't)
> will trample over others, calling and calling and trying to work a
> Dxpedition on every band/slot whether or not there's a leader board online.
> After all, they''ve been behaving like that for years anyway...
>
> cheers
>
> Dave G0OIL
>   - Original Message -
>   From: Zack Widup
>   To: dx-chat
>   Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 10:59 PM
>   Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?
>
>
>
>   Someone has pointed out recently that for DXCC requirements, you could get
> by with 9 QSO's which would cover 160 through 10 meters. You only need one
> QSO each on CW, SSB and RTTY, so you could either fit them in amongst your 9
> QSO's, or make a total of 11 QSO's to satisfy DXCC requirements.
>
>   The Leaderboards seem to be the things that are inspiring people to make
> 27 QSO's with the DX. I'm sure some of these stations that are coming out on
> top of the leadeboards have worked some of these stations previously on some
> of those band/modes, so it becomes mostly a thing of greed and ego.
>
>   73, Zack W9SZ
>
>
>
>   On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:
>
>   I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition,
>   they're usually begging.
>
>
>
> You obviously did not attempt to work 7O6T on RTTY.  The Europeans
> monopolized the few available RTTY band slots and even chased 7O6T
> off RTTY many times in the last days of the DXpedition.
>
> Quite simply, Leaderboards as currently structured encourage rampant
> DX Hoggery and have no place in radiosport.
>
> 73,
>
>  ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>
> On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:
>
>   I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition,
>   they're usually begging.
>
>   Those who couldn't make a QSO probably couldn't make a QSO on a
>   completely clear band anyway. There is only so much you can work with
>   a dipole and 100 watts.
>
>   And finally, DXing is competitive.You can be a good sport but you
>   don't have to put yourself at a disadvantage to make others feel
>   better.
>
>   Ryan, N2RJ
>
>   On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I think KQ8M's first comment in response to G7VJR's editorial is
> on point.  Clublog's "Leaderboards" should be modified to stop
> counting at 11 "band slots."  11 (or 12 if the operation works
> six meters) allows a station to work the operation on each band
> plus pick up QSOs on CW, Digital, and voice.
>
>

Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?

2012-06-06 Thread DAVE WHITE 
 
That's exactly what I do, Zack

Unless there's some organisational cock-up (on my part - I don't use a computer 
log) then I'll work a DXpedition if possible once on each band and once on each 
mode.  I won't work them on a band/mode if I already have that one confirmed.  
The thought process is specifically one of "if I work them on xxx and I don't 
need it then that's someone else who's not able to work them".  

The only time I'll make an exception is if the DXpedition is calling CQ and 
no-one is answering them

I think that G7VJR raises a good point.  The presence of an online log stops 
the temptation for insurance QSOs so in that sense it's good.  The propagation 
tools are always useful if like me you work long hours and have to make use of 
small time slots for calling DX.  But in truth I think that ill-mannered 
selfish pigs will always be ill-mannered selfish pigs and certain big gun DX 
Hogs (I could name them in G-land but of course won't) will trample over 
others, calling and calling and trying to work a Dxpedition on every band/slot 
whether or not there's a leader board online.  After all, they''ve been 
behaving like that for years anyway... 

cheers

Dave G0OIL
  - Original Message - 
  From: Zack Widup 
  To: dx-chat 
  Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 10:59 PM
  Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?



  Someone has pointed out recently that for DXCC requirements, you could get by 
with 9 QSO's which would cover 160 through 10 meters. You only need one QSO 
each on CW, SSB and RTTY, so you could either fit them in amongst your 9 QSO's, 
or make a total of 11 QSO's to satisfy DXCC requirements.

  The Leaderboards seem to be the things that are inspiring people to make 27 
QSO's with the DX. I'm sure some of these stations that are coming out on top 
of the leadeboards have worked some of these stations previously on some of 
those band/modes, so it becomes mostly a thing of greed and ego.

  73, Zack W9SZ



  On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:





On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:

  I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition,
  they're usually begging.



You obviously did not attempt to work 7O6T on RTTY.  The Europeans
monopolized the few available RTTY band slots and even chased 7O6T
off RTTY many times in the last days of the DXpedition.

Quite simply, Leaderboards as currently structured encourage rampant
DX Hoggery and have no place in radiosport.

73,

 ... Joe, W4TV



On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:

  I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition,
  they're usually begging.

  Those who couldn't make a QSO probably couldn't make a QSO on a
  completely clear band anyway. There is only so much you can work with
  a dipole and 100 watts.

  And finally, DXing is competitive.You can be a good sport but you
  don't have to put yourself at a disadvantage to make others feel
  better.

  Ryan, N2RJ

  On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:




I think KQ8M's first comment in response to G7VJR's editorial is
on point.  Clublog's "Leaderboards" should be modified to stop
counting at 11 "band slots."  11 (or 12 if the operation works
six meters) allows a station to work the operation on each band
plus pick up QSOs on CW, Digital, and voice.

Quite frankly, in spite of falling prey to the seduction of high
leaderboard numbers a time or two myself, anyone who shows up with
more than 14 or 15 band slots is simply a DX HOG.  There is simply
no excuse for such behavior.

N1DG's presentation at Dayton clearly showed the DX HOGs do not
provide increased support (contributions with QSL) relative to
the number of band slots worked ... even the "more QSOs mean more
revenue" argument falls flat.

73,

 ... Joe, W4TV



On 6/5/2012 2:54 PM, Paul M Dunphy wrote:



  G7VJR's point of view (ClubLog creator and T32C participant):

  http://g7vjr.org/2012/06/expedition-leaderboards-good-or-bad/

  73, Paul VE1DX



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RE: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?

2012-06-05 Thread Ron Notarius W3WN 

I will admit that there are more than a few "big gun" DXpeditions, the last
few years, that I have managed to work on band/mode combos that I didn't
need.

 

Most of those QSOs, though, came in the last week to 10 days.  If I hear the
station on, coming in strong, and not working anyone for minutes at a time.
why not?  I don't feel that IN THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION that I'm taking a
QSO away from someone else calling, because there isn't anyone else calling.
at least that the DX station is hearing.

 

The leaderboards may be encouraging some DX Hogs in that it lets them easily
show off that they can "work 'em all".  Apples to oranges, though, most of
the DX Hogs would do so anyway, even if the leaderboards didn't exist.

 

The problem isn't the leaderboards.  It's the DX Hogs & other lids.  The
leaderboards only illustrate the problem, they don't create it.  IMHO

 

73

 

  _  

From: kf...@njdxa.org [mailto:kf...@njdxa.org] On Behalf Of Zack Widup
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 5:59 PM
To: dx-chat
Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?

 


Someone has pointed out recently that for DXCC requirements, you could get
by with 9 QSO's which would cover 160 through 10 meters. You only need one
QSO each on CW, SSB and RTTY, so you could either fit them in amongst your 9
QSO's, or make a total of 11 QSO's to satisfy DXCC requirements.

The Leaderboards seem to be the things that are inspiring people to make 27
QSO's with the DX. I'm sure some of these stations that are coming out on
top of the leadeboards have worked some of these stations previously on some
of those band/modes, so it becomes mostly a thing of greed and ego.

73, Zack W9SZ



On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:





On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:

I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition,
they're usually begging.

 

You obviously did not attempt to work 7O6T on RTTY. The Europeans
monopolized the few available RTTY band slots and even chased 7O6T
off RTTY many times in the last days of the DXpedition.

Quite simply, Leaderboards as currently structured encourage rampant
DX Hoggery and have no place in radiosport.

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:

I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition,
they're usually begging.

Those who couldn't make a QSO probably couldn't make a QSO on a
completely clear band anyway. There is only so much you can work with
a dipole and 100 watts.

And finally, DXing is competitive.You can be a good sport but you
don't have to put yourself at a disadvantage to make others feel
better.

Ryan, N2RJ

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

 

I think KQ8M's first comment in response to G7VJR's editorial is
on point. Clublog's "Leaderboards" should be modified to stop
counting at 11 "band slots." 11 (or 12 if the operation works
six meters) allows a station to work the operation on each band
plus pick up QSOs on CW, Digital, and voice.

Quite frankly, in spite of falling prey to the seduction of high
leaderboard numbers a time or two myself, anyone who shows up with
more than 14 or 15 band slots is simply a DX HOG. There is simply
no excuse for such behavior.

N1DG's presentation at Dayton clearly showed the DX HOGs do not
provide increased support (contributions with QSL) relative to
the number of band slots worked ... even the "more QSOs mean more
revenue" argument falls flat.

73,

... Joe, W4TV



On 6/5/2012 2:54 PM, Paul M Dunphy wrote:



G7VJR's point of view (ClubLog creator and T32C participant):

http://g7vjr.org/2012/06/expedition-leaderboards-good-or-bad/

73, Paul VE1DX



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To

RE: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?

2012-06-05 Thread Ron Notarius W3WN 

Aw, c'mon Barry, can we please stop automatically blaming EVERYTHING on the
ARRL?

Even if the individual band certificates, or 5 Band, didn't exist... there
would still be induhviduals who would just HAVE to work the DX on every
possible band/mode combination they could operate on.  There would still be
induhviduals who will run as much power as they can to get in the log
"first".  There would still be induhviduals who will work the DX every
single day on the same band/mode, just to show off that they can.

In short, there will always be DX Hogs.  That is an ugly facet of human
nature.  

And I speak as one of the little pistols... sometimes more like a squirt
gun.  I can still remember more than a few times, when chasing DX for 80/75,
that a DX Hog would step all over me.  And when asked, the few that
responded gave me an answer to "why did you do that?" that boiled down to
"because I can, and if you don't like it, tough noogies."

There may be more DX Hogs out there today than long ago, but then, there are
also more hams, and more DX'ers, out there as well.  So the problem may seem
to be worse than it ever was, but only in terms of numbers (IMHO), not
percentage of poor operators out of total operators.

We should concentrate on trying to lead by example, to teach those who are
willing to learn how to operate properly.  Not assign blame.  

But the DX Hogs and general purpose lids?  There will always be some,
because some induhviduals have egos that persuade them to be such.  All we
can do is try to minimize the damage that they do, and ignore them when we
can.

Blaming an organization because they expanded an award program upon popular
request?  C'mon.

73 

-Original Message-
From: kf...@njdxa.org [mailto:kf...@njdxa.org] On Behalf Of Barry
Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2012 5:04 PM
To: rjai...@gmail.com; NJDXA DX Chat
Subject: Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?


I disagree.  The last day of the Yemen DXpediition was the first day I 
heard them well here in Colorado.  There were still lots of callers.  
Fortunately, I didn't need it, so I never got into the pileups.

ARRL created this mess when they expanded DXCC to include individual 
band awards.  There are plenty of little guns and those who don't live 
in propagationally-favorable locations left out in the cold on many 
DXpeditions because many guys have the need and are sufficiently bored 
with their lives to chase them on 15+ band-modes.

Barry W2UP

On 6/5/2012 2:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:
>
> I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition,
> they're usually begging.
>
> Those who couldn't make a QSO probably couldn't make a QSO on a
> completely clear band anyway. There is only so much you can work with
> a dipole and 100 watts.
>
> And finally, DXing is competitive.You can be a good sport but you
> don't have to put yourself at a disadvantage to make others feel
> better.
>
> Ryan, N2RJ
>
> On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:
>>
>> I think KQ8M's first comment in response to G7VJR's editorial is
>> on point.  Clublog's "Leaderboards" should be modified to stop
>> counting at 11 "band slots."  11 (or 12 if the operation works
>> six meters) allows a station to work the operation on each band
>> plus pick up QSOs on CW, Digital, and voice.
>>
>> Quite frankly, in spite of falling prey to the seduction of high
>> leaderboard numbers a time or two myself, anyone who shows up with
>> more than 14 or 15 band slots is simply a DX HOG.  There is simply
>> no excuse for such behavior.
>>
>> N1DG's presentation at Dayton clearly showed the DX HOGs do not
>> provide increased support (contributions with QSL) relative to
>> the number of band slots worked ... even the "more QSOs mean more
>> revenue" argument falls flat.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>>   ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6/5/2012 2:54 PM, Paul M Dunphy wrote:
>>>
>>> G7VJR's point of view (ClubLog creator and T32C participant):
>>>
>>> http://g7vjr.org/2012/06/expedition-leaderboards-good-or-bad/
>>>
>>> 73, Paul VE1DX
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to
>>>
>>> imail...@njdxa.org
>>> In the message body put either
>>> unsubscribe dx-chat
>>>
>>> or
>>> subscribe dx-chat
>>>
>>> This is the DX-CHAT reflector sponsored by the NJDXA http://njdxa.org
>>> ---
>>>
>

Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?

2012-06-05 Thread Zack Widup 

Someone has pointed out recently that for DXCC requirements, you could get
by with 9 QSO's which would cover 160 through 10 meters. You only need one
QSO each on CW, SSB and RTTY, so you could either fit them in amongst your
9 QSO's, or make a total of 11 QSO's to satisfy DXCC requirements.

The Leaderboards seem to be the things that are inspiring people to make 27
QSO's with the DX. I'm sure some of these stations that are coming out on
top of the leadeboards have worked some of these stations previously on
some of those band/modes, so it becomes mostly a thing of greed and ego.

73, Zack W9SZ


On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:

>
>
>
>
> On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:
>
>> I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition,
>> they're usually begging.
>>
>
> You obviously did not attempt to work 7O6T on RTTY.  The Europeans
> monopolized the few available RTTY band slots and even chased 7O6T
> off RTTY many times in the last days of the DXpedition.
>
> Quite simply, Leaderboards as currently structured encourage rampant
> DX Hoggery and have no place in radiosport.
>
> 73,
>
>  ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:
>
>> I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition,
>> they're usually begging.
>>
>> Those who couldn't make a QSO probably couldn't make a QSO on a
>> completely clear band anyway. There is only so much you can work with
>> a dipole and 100 watts.
>>
>> And finally, DXing is competitive.You can be a good sport but you
>> don't have to put yourself at a disadvantage to make others feel
>> better.
>>
>> Ryan, N2RJ
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think KQ8M's first comment in response to G7VJR's editorial is
>>> on point.  Clublog's "Leaderboards" should be modified to stop
>>> counting at 11 "band slots."  11 (or 12 if the operation works
>>> six meters) allows a station to work the operation on each band
>>> plus pick up QSOs on CW, Digital, and voice.
>>>
>>> Quite frankly, in spite of falling prey to the seduction of high
>>> leaderboard numbers a time or two myself, anyone who shows up with
>>> more than 14 or 15 band slots is simply a DX HOG.  There is simply
>>> no excuse for such behavior.
>>>
>>> N1DG's presentation at Dayton clearly showed the DX HOGs do not
>>> provide increased support (contributions with QSL) relative to
>>> the number of band slots worked ... even the "more QSOs mean more
>>> revenue" argument falls flat.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>>  ... Joe, W4TV
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/5/2012 2:54 PM, Paul M Dunphy wrote:
>>>


 G7VJR's point of view (ClubLog creator and T32C participant):

 http://g7vjr.org/2012/06/**expedition-leaderboards-good-**or-bad/

 73, Paul VE1DX



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>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?

2012-06-05 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV 





On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:

I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition,
they're usually begging.


You obviously did not attempt to work 7O6T on RTTY.  The Europeans
monopolized the few available RTTY band slots and even chased 7O6T
off RTTY many times in the last days of the DXpedition.

Quite simply, Leaderboards as currently structured encourage rampant
DX Hoggery and have no place in radiosport.

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV


On 6/5/2012 4:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:

I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition,
they're usually begging.

Those who couldn't make a QSO probably couldn't make a QSO on a
completely clear band anyway. There is only so much you can work with
a dipole and 100 watts.

And finally, DXing is competitive.You can be a good sport but you
don't have to put yourself at a disadvantage to make others feel
better.

Ryan, N2RJ

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:



I think KQ8M's first comment in response to G7VJR's editorial is
on point.  Clublog's "Leaderboards" should be modified to stop
counting at 11 "band slots."  11 (or 12 if the operation works
six meters) allows a station to work the operation on each band
plus pick up QSOs on CW, Digital, and voice.

Quite frankly, in spite of falling prey to the seduction of high
leaderboard numbers a time or two myself, anyone who shows up with
more than 14 or 15 band slots is simply a DX HOG.  There is simply
no excuse for such behavior.

N1DG's presentation at Dayton clearly showed the DX HOGs do not
provide increased support (contributions with QSL) relative to
the number of band slots worked ... even the "more QSOs mean more
revenue" argument falls flat.

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV



On 6/5/2012 2:54 PM, Paul M Dunphy wrote:



G7VJR's point of view (ClubLog creator and T32C participant):

http://g7vjr.org/2012/06/expedition-leaderboards-good-or-bad/

73, Paul VE1DX



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Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?

2012-06-05 Thread Barry 


I disagree.  The last day of the Yemen DXpediition was the first day I 
heard them well here in Colorado.  There were still lots of callers.  
Fortunately, I didn't need it, so I never got into the pileups.


ARRL created this mess when they expanded DXCC to include individual 
band awards.  There are plenty of little guns and those who don't live 
in propagationally-favorable locations left out in the cold on many 
DXpeditions because many guys have the need and are sufficiently bored 
with their lives to chase them on 15+ band-modes.


Barry W2UP

On 6/5/2012 2:39 PM, Ryan Jairam wrote:


I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition,
they're usually begging.

Those who couldn't make a QSO probably couldn't make a QSO on a
completely clear band anyway. There is only so much you can work with
a dipole and 100 watts.

And finally, DXing is competitive.You can be a good sport but you
don't have to put yourself at a disadvantage to make others feel
better.

Ryan, N2RJ

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:


I think KQ8M's first comment in response to G7VJR's editorial is
on point.  Clublog's "Leaderboards" should be modified to stop
counting at 11 "band slots."  11 (or 12 if the operation works
six meters) allows a station to work the operation on each band
plus pick up QSOs on CW, Digital, and voice.

Quite frankly, in spite of falling prey to the seduction of high
leaderboard numbers a time or two myself, anyone who shows up with
more than 14 or 15 band slots is simply a DX HOG.  There is simply
no excuse for such behavior.

N1DG's presentation at Dayton clearly showed the DX HOGs do not
provide increased support (contributions with QSL) relative to
the number of band slots worked ... even the "more QSOs mean more
revenue" argument falls flat.

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV



On 6/5/2012 2:54 PM, Paul M Dunphy wrote:


G7VJR's point of view (ClubLog creator and T32C participant):

http://g7vjr.org/2012/06/expedition-leaderboards-good-or-bad/

73, Paul VE1DX



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Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?

2012-06-05 Thread Ryan Jairam 
 
I don't really buy that argument. In the last days of a DXpedition,
they're usually begging.

Those who couldn't make a QSO probably couldn't make a QSO on a
completely clear band anyway. There is only so much you can work with
a dipole and 100 watts.

And finally, DXing is competitive.You can be a good sport but you
don't have to put yourself at a disadvantage to make others feel
better.

Ryan, N2RJ

On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:
>
>
> I think KQ8M's first comment in response to G7VJR's editorial is
> on point.  Clublog's "Leaderboards" should be modified to stop
> counting at 11 "band slots."  11 (or 12 if the operation works
> six meters) allows a station to work the operation on each band
> plus pick up QSOs on CW, Digital, and voice.
>
> Quite frankly, in spite of falling prey to the seduction of high
> leaderboard numbers a time or two myself, anyone who shows up with
> more than 14 or 15 band slots is simply a DX HOG.  There is simply
> no excuse for such behavior.
>
> N1DG's presentation at Dayton clearly showed the DX HOGs do not
> provide increased support (contributions with QSL) relative to
> the number of band slots worked ... even the "more QSOs mean more
> revenue" argument falls flat.
>
> 73,
>
>  ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>
> On 6/5/2012 2:54 PM, Paul M Dunphy wrote:
>>
>>
>> G7VJR's point of view (ClubLog creator and T32C participant):
>>
>> http://g7vjr.org/2012/06/expedition-leaderboards-good-or-bad/
>>
>> 73, Paul VE1DX
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> To unsubscribe or subscribe to this list. Please send a message to
>>
>> imail...@njdxa.org
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>>
>> or
>> subscribe dx-chat
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>>
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>
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-- 
Ryan A. Jairam


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Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?

2012-06-05 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV 



I think KQ8M's first comment in response to G7VJR's editorial is
on point.  Clublog's "Leaderboards" should be modified to stop
counting at 11 "band slots."  11 (or 12 if the operation works
six meters) allows a station to work the operation on each band
plus pick up QSOs on CW, Digital, and voice.

Quite frankly, in spite of falling prey to the seduction of high
leaderboard numbers a time or two myself, anyone who shows up with
more than 14 or 15 band slots is simply a DX HOG.  There is simply
no excuse for such behavior.

N1DG's presentation at Dayton clearly showed the DX HOGs do not
provide increased support (contributions with QSL) relative to
the number of band slots worked ... even the "more QSOs mean more
revenue" argument falls flat.

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV


On 6/5/2012 2:54 PM, Paul M Dunphy wrote:


G7VJR's point of view (ClubLog creator and T32C participant):

http://g7vjr.org/2012/06/expedition-leaderboards-good-or-bad/

73, Paul VE1DX



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Re: [DX-CHAT] Leaderboards - good or bad?

2012-06-05 Thread Tom Wylie 


One of my personal yardstick of the "goodness" of an expedition is NOT 
the total number of QSOs made
as that depends entirely on the number of operators, stations and the 
duration
but I like to look at the TOTAL QSOs made by the NUMBER of OPERATORS and 
the NUMBER of DAYS taken into account


Like:

CallTotal QSOs  No of Operators No of Days  No of 
QSOs made per operator per day


T32C2130063830186
D68C1685913220263
HK0NA   1952922727267
7O6T1620291715 *635*

I guess it all depends on the objectives of the expedition

work uniques??
work down to the third and fourth tier?
max out the QSOs?

etc etc.

Its just my way of looking and comparing things


Tom
GM4FDM



On 05/06/2012 19:54, Paul M Dunphy wrote:


G7VJR's point of view (ClubLog creator and T32C participant):

http://g7vjr.org/2012/06/expedition-leaderboards-good-or-bad/

73, Paul VE1DX



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