date:20021023

Paying employees? Unless the company makes its money in e-gold, this is
going to be costly.


Certainly Danny   that's the way to go!

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[e-gold-list] Re: [dgc.chat] May Scale?

Dear Dave ...

there's the link!

http://www.interestingsoftware.com/mayscale.html

Thanks!



JP,
 I find that my link to one of your sites, which displayed the "May Scale"
of relative currency "hardness",. no longer exists.  Can you tell me (us)
where to find it now?

Thanks
Dave Brooks



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[e-gold-list] Re: Fastgold also Announces:

2002-10-23 Thread shupperd1

We also would like to add that we will send funds to paypal, and the same
deal below applies to 1mdc grams

James
- Original Message -
From: "shupperd1" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "e-gold Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2002 5:37 PM
Subject: [e-gold-list] Fastgold Announces:


> FREE CHECKS FROM EGOLD, NO PROCESSING FEES.  WE WILL MAIL YOUR CHECK THE
> VERY SAME DAY.
>
> YOU WANT IT OVERNIGHT VIA UPS YOU SAY?  WE WILL DO THAT AS WELL FOR JUST
$8
>
> SPEND TO EGOLD 157585
>
> THEN EMAIL US YOUR BATCH # AND TO WHOM  AND WHERE  YOU WANT YOUR CHECK
SENT.
>
> We will also fund your debit cards, send western union, moneygram, and
send
> bank wires any where in the world.
>
> Why not try us out today? We have been serving the gold community since
2000
>
> James Shupperd
> www.fastgold.net
>
>
>
> ---
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> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke
loggers and common viruses.
>



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[e-gold-list] Fastgold Announces:

2002-10-23 Thread shupperd1

FREE CHECKS FROM EGOLD, NO PROCESSING FEES.  WE WILL MAIL YOUR CHECK THE
VERY SAME DAY.

YOU WANT IT OVERNIGHT VIA UPS YOU SAY?  WE WILL DO THAT AS WELL FOR JUST $8

SPEND TO EGOLD 157585

THEN EMAIL US YOUR BATCH # AND TO WHOM  AND WHERE  YOU WANT YOUR CHECK SENT.

We will also fund your debit cards, send western union, moneygram, and send
bank wires any where in the world.

Why not try us out today? We have been serving the gold community since 2000

James Shupperd
www.fastgold.net



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[e-gold-list] Re: Reversible payment (was: Re: Pecunix Invitation)

>
> Yeah, you can describe it as a :"little extra effort," Danny, but it
> would simply be *something else* then.  It would no longer be gold
> stored for you and transferrable over the net.


It would be *something more*
It would still be gold stored for you and transferrable over the net, but if
you have accepted reversible payment, you have to wait till the reversal
period is over before you can spend that amount of gold that is still on
hold.


>
> You must be able to understand the difference between a safety
> deposit box, and a bank account.  If you can comprehend that
> difference, you can comprehend the difference between e-gold and
> praypal.


It would be both, a safety deposit AND a bank account, it's up to you.
Why not have the best of both worlds?
And it is a big advantage to have both in the same place.

On the net, as much as possible, people want to do everything in one place.
If the user has to open an account on one site (e.g. e-gold), then go figure
out another site to fund the account (a market maker), then go to yet
another site where a *payment system* is provided...
99% potential customers are out already..


Danny




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[e-gold-list] Re: "Van den Berghe payment system"

>
> You may be right that *certain types of retail transactions* (like,
> buying a pushbike or something) are not amenable to e-gold-type
> transactions.
>
> However "real money" e-gold direct online transactions are "fucking
> fabulous" for vast categories of stuff.  For instance, paying
> employees and being paid.  For instance, paying rent.  For instance,
> buying stuff at banana, or paying for things like hosting and DOMs.
> For instance, thegoldcasino, which is a mega hit, because irrevocable
> direct online transactions are tremendously advantageous for
> gambling.  e-gold type irrevocable direct online transactions would
> also be totally ideal for say paying etrade, and so on.



Paying employees? Unless the company makes its money in e-gold, this is
going to be costly.
The marketmakers would be happy.
Direct Deposit will work out much cheaper.
Same problem for paying rent.
3% loss when you buy the e-gold. That's $30 a month if I have a $1000 rent.

The casino, yes, that's one of the best example where non-reversible payment
is the (only) way to go.



>
> But sure you're right that there are many categories of retailing
> that credit-card type revocable transatcions are popular for  and
> 


As far as I know consumer spending accounts for about 70% of GDP

Companies will make money in e-gold only if customers start paying for goods
in e-gold (and these customers prefer reversible payment).
Once the company makes e-gold , only then it makes sense to start paying the
employees in e-gold, and when that happens the people can pay their rent in
e-gold.

The first step is largely missing (because no reversible payment systems
with e-gold), so the next stages (employees and rent) are only happening
rarely.




>
> >Yes, but e-gold will not get popular unless you can do reversible
> >transactions with it.
>
> i do think though Danny that e-gold "made reversible" would simply no
> longer be e-gold.  It would have lost it's raison d'etre and be
> completely pointless.


The "made reversible" should only be optional. So for users who insist on
non-reversible payments (to be set in the account settings), nothing would
change.
Such a system would have both, all the possibilities of e-gold , plus all
the possibilities of Paypal, at the choice of the user.
I can't see any loss or pointlessness there.
For you it will still be the e-gold like it has always been. Some others
will offer their customers the possibility to claim their e-gold back for
whatever reason.
It is still gold being circulated electronically...




>
> (In contrast ... let's say you started a new system, "abcgrams.com"
> which WERE revocable.  what would happen?  What would happen is
> everyone would imemdiately convert their abcgrams to e-gold grams
> because ... e-gold grams are not revocable! :)  IG is meant to be
> non-revokable, or else it's not really IG.)


Simple solution. As I said before, there is a set period during which the
customer can do a charge back, for example one month.
If you have accepted reversible payment, you can only take out the gold that
is free from chargeback possibility, that is after one month.
This system is fair and clear for everybody, no added risk for e-gold (the
merchant who accept reversible payment takes all the risks for doing so.
Fair)

This is actually a major improvement over what creditcards are offering now.
The cc company can process chargebacks even months after the purchase.
They also don't offer partial chargeback possibility.




>
> So yes, I think as Patrick was saying, there's probably a HUGE, HUGE
> opportunity for a "Van den Berghe payment system" which is sort of a
> credit card based on egold or a praypal based on egold.


Not really a creditcard, because no credit comes in.
Only a really flexible and secure payment system with gold backing.



Danny


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[e-gold-list] Norse Concepts temporarily unavailable

2002-10-23 Thread norseconcepts

Click Two Cents & FastSCI are temporarily offline. We apologize for any
inconvenience this may cause, and are attempting to resolve this issue as
quickly as possible.


Thank you,
Norse Concepts

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[e-gold-list] Re: why paypal wins and e-gold not

2002-10-23 Thread Fidex Marketing


> I only faxed them a copy of my photo ID.
> I did not fax them the copy of a creditcard statement, nor the copy of
a
> utility bill they asked for.
> 
> So, next time you have trouble with Paypal, just say: fuck up, I don't
> want
> to be spied upon.
> 
> I am going to close my account there anyway, so any marketmaker who
takes
> my
> Paypal??


I know how they work. If you keep your account open they will be back on
to you in a month or two with the same BS.

And no, we absolutely do not take Paypal. Sorry :)

Nick
Fidex




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[e-gold-list] Re: Meaning of e-bullion

2002-10-23 Thread Ragnar

Dear SV,

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Guys,
> 
> I was talking to a russian today he kept laughing everytime I
> say the word e-bullion. I later found out that it means fu..
> in russian:-)

It's stretching it.  It does not have that direct sound or
meaning... I am told...

=
Regards,

Ragnar
CFO - Gold Age  http://www.gold-age.net

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[e-gold-list] Re: why paypal wins and e-gold not

>
> Paypal just restricted my account, simply because I have travelled to a
> country they do not service (Bulgaria), and now they want me to explain
what
> I am doing here and how long I will stay.
>

snip

> I have responded them:
>
> >Hi,
> >
> >
> >You can expect such access all the time because I have a nomadic
lifestyle
> and travel all kind of countries.
> >Is this a problem for using Paypal?
> >If that is the case Paypal is not a useful system for me..
> >
> >Moreover, this being spied upon does not leave me with a very good
feeling.
> >Big Brother is watching... No thank you.
>

Hi,


This is the answer I got:

> We have completed our review and have restored your account.
> Thank you for your patience during this process and for helping
> to make PayPal the safest and most trusted online payment solution.
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> The PayPal Account Review Department
>


I only faxed them a copy of my photo ID.
I did not fax them the copy of a creditcard statement, nor the copy of a
utility bill they asked for.

So, next time you have trouble with Paypal, just say: fuck up, I don't want
to be spied upon.

I am going to close my account there anyway, so any marketmaker who takes my
Paypal??



Danny


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[e-gold-list] Re: Reversible payment (was: Re: Pecunix Invitation)

You got the point.

It is so strange that the gold currencies on the net, who have invested
quite a lot in their systems, do not make this little extra effort to offer
a complete *payment system*, that is flexible and useful for everybody.




Yeah, you can describe it as a :"little extra effort," Danny, but it 
would simply be *something else* then.  It would no longer be gold 
stored for you and transferrable over the net.

You must be able to understand the difference between a safety 
deposit box, and a bank account.  If you can comprehend that 
difference, you can comprehend the difference between e-gold and 
praypal.

If you want e-gold to "be" praypal, you're simply saying you don't 
want it to be an IG -- you want it to be praypal.

The simple solution would be ... use praypal.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What European tribes think of each other:
http://exile.ru/151/materials/europeans-chart.html

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[e-gold-list] "Van den Berghe payment system"

IG systems are meant to be *monies* in the same way that USD and
Euros are moneys.

That's exactly what I was trying to say: e-gold is only *money*, and that's
why e-gold is not gaining widespread acceptance for payments on the net,
because
money, pur sang, is useless for direct online transactions.

For what it's worth, I have not found that to be the case Danny

You may be right that *certain types of retail transactions* (like,
buying a pushbike or something) are not amenable to e-gold-type
transactions.

However "real money" e-gold direct online transactions are "fucking
fabulous" for vast categories of stuff. For instance, paying
employees and being paid. For instance, paying rent. For instance,
buying stuff at banana, or paying for things like hosting and DOMs.
For instance, thegoldcasino, which is a mega hit, because irrevocable
direct online transactions are tremendously advantageous for
gambling. e-gold type irrevocable direct online transactions would
also be totally ideal for say paying etrade, and so on.

But sure you're right that there are many categories of retailing
that credit-card type revocable transatcions are popular for and

Yes, but e-gold will not get popular unless you can do reversible
transactions with it.

i do think though Danny that e-gold "made reversible" would simply no
longer be e-gold. It would have lost it's raison d'etre and be
completely pointless.

(In contrast ... let's say you started a new system, "abcgrams.com"
which WERE revocable. what would happen? What would happen is
everyone would imemdiately convert their abcgrams to e-gold grams
because ... e-gold grams are not revocable! :) IG is meant to be
non-revokable, or else it's not really IG.)

So yes, I think as Patrick was saying, there's probably a HUGE, HUGE
opportunity for a "Van den Berghe payment system" which is sort of a
credit card based on egold or a praypal based on egold.

It (the "Van den Berghe payment system") would p[robably be much,
much more busy and successul than egold (just as PrayPal is much,
much more busy and successul than egold)

Without circulation in physical form, any new online *money* (e.g. e-gold)
will not gain much acceptance,..

well it is running at about 1 to 5 million dollars worth per day

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What European tribes think of each other:
http://exile.ru/151/materials/europeans-chart.html

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[e-gold-list] Re: Reversible payment (was: Re: Pecunix Invitation)

> Danny makes a good case that purchasers want credit in the form of
> reversible payments.  Merchants are willing to extend that credit to drum
> up more business and establish their integrity.  Ultimately the merchants
> want money (e.g. e-gold), but in the meantime they are willing to take a
> calculated risk.
>
> If you can devise financial systems that will satisfy both the purchasers
> and the merchants, you will make a pile of money.
>


Hi Patrick,



You got the point.

It is so strange that the gold currencies on the net, who have invested
quite a lot in their systems, do not make this little extra effort to offer
a complete *payment system*, that is flexible and useful for everybody.

Creating the reversible payment system does not take away anything. Those
who want to do only non-reversible transactions can go on doing so.



Danny


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[e-gold-list] Re: Reversible payment (was: Re: Pecunix Invitation)

> IG systems are meant to be *monies* in the same way that USD and
> Euros are moneys.


That's exactly what I was trying to say: e-gold is only *money*, and that's
why e-gold is not gaining widespread acceptance for payments on the net,
because
money, pur sang, is useless for direct online transactions.

Remember , real money, whether it be gold coins or dollar bills, has only
been ever really useful when there is physical contact between the buyer and
the seller.
You give me the bottle of wine and I hand you the money, and the deal is
finished. This is the most simple transaction.

When there is no physical contact between the buyer and the seller, a simple
money transaction is no longer a suitable solution.
Different solutions were found, escrow service, letter of credit issued by
the bank, ...

Using *money* online would be as risky as sending money in an envelop
(provided you are certain the envelop will reach its destination)



>
> Reversible payments in e-gold or goldmoney makes little sense.
>
> It would be like having "reversible US dollars"
>
> Credit cards are, of course, something that *OPERATES WITH* US
> Dollars.  Indeed, in the future, if e-gold is really popular there
> will be credit cards that operate with e-gold.


Yes, but e-gold will not get popular unless you can do reversible
transactions with it.
You have the chicken and the egg question here.
Want e-gold to become widely used, simply make reversible payments possible.
Without this extra service e-gold remains just *money* , and consumers will
remain very reluctant to 'send money in an envelop to an unknown
destination'



>
> Or .. PrayPal for instance, may decide to offer e-gold accounts.
> (Much as they may decide to expand to say Euros, of Canadian Dollars.)



Euros or Can dollars have gained widespread use because they already
circulate in physical form.
Without circulation in physical form, any new online *money* (e.g. e-gold)
will not gain much acceptance, unless you offer a complete payment solution
based on it.
That's what is missing with the GBC's I have seen so far.
And thinking that some other third party is going to do the dirty work is
just dreaming.
If Paypal or cc's see the need for a gold backed money, they will just
create one in-house.
Why they would trust a third party with the gold?


Danny



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[e-gold-list] Re: [dgc.chat] India's central bank

2002-10-23 Thread Ragnar

Whatever Jackson told the RBI, it must have scared the bejesus
out of them.  I suspect other countries' feral banks will come
in thunder soon as well...

e-gold could wind up being the best monetary revolution that
almost happened... :)

--- IanG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ragnar wrote:
> > 
> Ragnar,
> 
> to be honest, I have no clue what happened, I just recall
> that the e-gold people put out a press release a couple of
> months back announcing that Douglas Jackson was on his way
> to India to talk to the IRB.
> 
> We should look in the archives, but I have no clue where
> they are, even...

=
Regards,

Ragnar
CFO - Gold Age  http://www.gold-age.net

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[e-gold-list] Re: [dgc.chat] Gold Credit Card

At 01:32 PM 10/23/2002 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

the only possible problem with this is .. isn't it rather "getting rid
of" credit cards?!?

You're essentially saying "the issuance of credit cards currently is a
bloody shambles, with an IG credit card, it would have to be much tighter"

Most people are such scum financially (sorry, people of the world!) that
they CAN'T EVEN get together such an in-advance amount.

Hey JP, in the traditional credit card world those very same people are
also unlikely to have that much in their bank account when it finally gets
seized. :-) Yet Mastercard continues to serve them.

So maybe there's a sweet spot you can find in the probability curve. We'll
give out unsecured cards to scum and charge them enough interest to
compensate for the 30% of scum who default on us.

That interest rate, by the way, may be significantly lower than the 24%
usury demanded by MasterCard now. Perhaps our company is so efficient that
we can actually make scads of money giving unsecured cards with a 15% rate
to scum with a 30% default rate!

Or not, as the case may be. In which case we let MasterCard have the scum
market and they can continue to clip them for 24%. Meantime we take the
solid citizen market by storm.

Indeed, that's exactly what CCs thrive on right?

Partially! So why can't we thrive on those people too? :-) Why can't we
be bottom-feeding scum suckers just like the big guys? :-) Let's clip
them for 15% and do them a favor in the process!

(It's a bit like those "check cashing!" businesses that are in every small
town ... "cash your pay check 2 days ahead of time for only 12% interest!"
... and other such businesses that cater to the walking financial shambles
that is the populace)

Those are profitable businesses. They love every schmuck who walks through
their doors.

In fact, perhaps what you're REALLY saying here is the slackness of credit
cards AS IT EXISTS would probably have to be done away with altogether if
everything was based on IG and not USD :O

And that's --- good!

SOME of the slackness perhaps. Or maybe we just look at it this way:

1. MasterCard makes money at 24% on unsecured scum cards with a default
rate of 30%

2. JPCard makes money at 15% on unsecured scum cards with a default rate
of 30%

OK, let's do it! Bring on the scum!

I think the main thing I'm trying to do is address "Danny's Dilemma"
head-on. I state it as a sarcastic question:

"Why would a purchaser pay a premium to a market maker to purchase hard
money just for the privilege of making payments that he cannot repudiate?"

The answer is: no reason whatsoever.

The second part of this issue is what we might call "E-Gold's Envy":

"Why is PayPal so damn successful?"

Frankly I don't think the issue of repudiable payments enters most people's
minds. All they know is this: hey wow all I have to do is open a PayPal
account, link up my credit card, and I'm off to the races!

That's it -- the entire extent of the thinking of well over 10 million
PayPal customers.

So why would those people use the JPCard? Because instead of paying 19% on
their existing credit cards, they can get the same benefits with a JPCard
at only 9%! The only catch is this: they have to pay a small premium to a
market maker to acquire e-gold. :-) But just think of the interest savings!

PLUS, once they get into the game they'll start to find more people with
e-gold accounts and they'll start trading with each other
directly. Eventually people won't have to go to a market maker, they'll
simply EARN some e-gold directly!

In fact, they could freakin' LINK their JPCard INTO their PayPal
account!! So we totally co-exist. In fact, we end up WISHING PAYPAL
SUCCESS, if you can imagine that.

Or maybe we do a "digital only" credit card (just a number -- no plastic)
so that initially you can only use it online. That way as we get off the
ground and raise capital we have extremely low fulfillment expenses -- we
don't have to contract with Total Systems to print and mail plastic! That
may actually turn out to be OUR ENTIRE BUSINESS -- we could just
perpetually offer a no-plastic, no-paper, no-post-office online credit card
with a super-low rate of just 5%.

SO, instead of trying to convert the scum market into a disciplined bunch
of hard money people, you should instead focus on exploiting their
weaknesses to your advantage! That is, ASSUMING the business model can
truly work. The question of course is simply this: is there money in it?

But of course, I don't have to tell that to JP, of all people!

-- Patrick

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[e-gold-list] Re: [dgc.chat] Gold Credit Card

2002-10-23 Thread Mike McNamara

At 2:21 PM -0400 10/23/02, Patrick Chkoreff wrote:

Beautiful! Can you say "secured credit card"? :-)

I guess I hadn't considered that angle. As you point out I'm sure
that all the CC companies out there do operate on some "dynamic risk
assessment model" that would be almost equally as applicable to the
IG crowd. However! (read on)

For excellent credit risks such as Mike McNamara and Patrick
Chkoreff, we'd get a card with a 5 kilo limit and no security
deposit.

When a customer starts missing payments or paying late on a regular
basis, you could send him an email asking that in addition to his
regular payment, he also put up an extra security deposit to be held
in escrow. That's the penalty for erratic payment! If you want the
deposit back, just start paying regularly again!

It's all probabilities and incentives. No force involved, ever.

I still think it's assuming too much to believe that a IG based CC
company could survive without fund recovery, whether by force or
other means. The current CC model surely operates on basically the
same "probabilities and incentives" premise. The incentive for on
time payments with a traditional CC are lower interest rates, a good
credit rating and a higher credit limit. In the probabilities
department it's probably safe to assume that CC companies are using
some predictive equation to dole out the different limits and
interest rates to people.

Of course we know the current system really doesn't work that well!
People declare bankruptcy, have their assets frozen, etc. despite all
of the incentives and probabilities. All of that makes one think
that there must be a reason. I think that reason is the fact that
the CC companies prey on people who are already financially stretched
and who, further are fairly poor credit risks!

Wouldn't the IG CC model have to avoid those problems? Could it?

Mike

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[e-gold-list] Re: [dgc.chat] Gold Credit Card



With dynamic risk assessment models, they could eventually trickle any 
security deposit back to the customer as he establishes a better credit 
history.  Eventually the company could figure what the hell the guy put 
down a 50gg security deposit but we've already made 100gg in interest 
payments from him over the last few years, so he can just have the whole 
deposit back.  We're covered!

Mike:

This could even go in the opposite direction!  When a customer starts 
missing payments or paying late on a regular basis, you could send him an 
email asking that in addition to his regular payment, he also put up an 
extra security deposit to be held in escrow.  That's the penalty for 
erratic payment!  If you want the deposit back, just start paying regularly 
again!

It's all probabilities and incentives.  No force involved, ever.

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: [dgc.chat] Gold Credit Card

At 02:21 PM 10/23/2002 -0400, Patrick Chkoreff wrote:
...

With dynamic risk assessment models, they could eventually trickle any 
security deposit back to the customer as he establishes a better credit 
history.  Eventually the company could figure what the hell the guy put 
down a 50gg security deposit but we've already made 100gg in interest 
payments from him over the last few years, so he can just have the whole 
deposit back.  We're covered!


Oh and by the way Mike, observe that this secured credit card option 
requires NO government intervention.  No federal government seizing bank 
accounts.  Hell, we don't even need the E-gold "government" to seize e-gold 
accounts in this scenario!

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: [dgc.chat] Gold Credit Card

At 11:55 AM 10/23/2002 -0600, Mike McNamara wrote:

At 1:42 PM -0400 10/23/02, Patrick Chkoreff wrote:

SO, it is conceivable that someone could start a credit card company
TOMORROW that took payment in NOTHING BUT e-gold. Their expenses would
be lower because they would not have to accept any mailed payments, wait
for checks to clear, etc. They would also have NO mailed
statements. Therefore, they would not have to hire or create a giant
clearing house to handle all that paper. Their paperwork and risk would
be ENORMOUSLY reduced.

chop

I think that you make an excellent point Patrick! I would also think
however that a tremendous amount of credit card company dollars are used
in the pursuit of recovering delinquent payments. Recovering such funds
in the IG world would probably be much harder given that the IGCC
(Internet Gold Credit Card!) company probably would not be able to get
e-gold to freeze someone's account based on the fact that they're owed
money. I believe that say Visa and Mastercard can fairly easily have your
bank account frozen or put a lien against it, etc. if they're owed
substantial money.

Just a consideration!

Beautiful! Can you say "secured credit card"? :-)

So the credit card company says, sure enough Joe Blow we'll give you a
credit card with a 100gg limit. Just spend 50gg into our escrow account
and we'll have it right out to you!

Or if you think Joe Blow is a really serious credit risk, just require him
to put up the entire 100gg as security deposit.

For excellent credit risks such as Mike McNamara and Patrick Chkoreff, we'd
get a card with a 5 kilo limit and no security deposit. The issuer would
think to themselves "hey, come on, what's the likelihood of Mike McNamara
or Patrick Chkoreff defaulting?" Sure if it happens and they can't talk
some sense into us they'd be out maybe 5 kilos tops, but that's no big deal
considering they had profits last year of 10 metric tons. :-)

With dynamic risk assessment models, they could eventually trickle any
security deposit back to the customer as he establishes a better credit
history. Eventually the company could figure what the hell the guy put
down a 50gg security deposit but we've already made 100gg in interest
payments from him over the last few years, so he can just have the whole
deposit back. We're covered!

-- Patrick

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[e-gold-list] Gold Credit Card

(This is a fairly long email -- in my opinion the most interesting part is
at the very end where I address JP's gold credit card idea. Scan down if
your time is limited.)

At 11:55 AM 10/23/2002 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I've failed to see throughout this thread how e-gold spends aren't
reversible. Wanna reverse a spend? Spend it back to the spender!
Presto! Your spend is reversed, and each party is only out the low
spend fees.

that's an outstanding point Jim *doh* !

Yes, but the reversal is the merchant's decision, not the purchaser's.

What we're talking about instead is *repudiable* payments.

Good word. So a repudiable payment is one that can be reversed by a
purchaser's decision.

Right ... a system like "credit cards" offers this ability.

Since "credit cards" work perfectoly and there's no need to reinvent the
wheel, I believe eventually credit cards will just add "e-gold" to the
currencies they handle.

Sure. Just PayPal away and flash your plastic. Then pay it off in e-gold
using existing market makers.

This easy answer does of course avoid Danny's central point, which is to
attack the barriers to entry to DGCs. Problem is, this collides head-on
with the May Scale of Monetary Hardness.

I suppose a DGC could conceivably implement a repudiable transaction if
they put their minds to it. But what would it gain them? Would it gain
them customers? Maybe. Would it gain them trouble? Probably. I'm not sure.

But Danny is correct to question why a purchaser would be motivated to pay
a premium to a market maker to purchase hard money just for the privilege
of making payments that he cannot repudiate. :-)

Perhaps a DGC would be wise to stick to its role as a final settlement
vehicle, and just say tough cookies to the, uh, kitty cat customers that JP
describes.

The benefits of using a DGC are then limited and clear. Anybody who has
used the traditional banking and checking system to transfer "final" funds
will see the advantage immediately.

For example, if there were no credit card system and every purchase had to
be funded by bank wire or mailed check, millions of purchasers would
immediately migrate lock stock and barrel into the DGC world.

But there is a credit card system, so the kitty cats stay away from DGCs in
droves.

JP nails the problem squarely on the head when he talks about credit card
companies accepting payment in e-gold. The reason that example is so
brilliant is that it's a perfect case of where final settlement is DEMANDED
and only hard money will suffice. Generally speaking you cannot pay your
credit card bill with a credit card. The only exception is balance
transfers, but that just defers the time of final settlement. All credit
card debts must eventually be resolved in one of two ways:

1. A final nonrepudiable payment.
2. Default through bankruptcy or refusal to pay

SO, it is conceivable that someone could start a credit card company
TOMORROW that took payment in NOTHING BUT e-gold. Their expenses would be
lower because they would not have to accept any mailed payments, wait for
checks to clear, etc. They would also have NO mailed
statements. Therefore, they would not have to hire or create a giant
clearing house to handle all that paper. Their paperwork and risk would be
ENORMOUSLY reduced.

That gives the company a HUGE competitive edge. They can now charge MUCH
LOWER interest rates than Mastercard etc.

The result? People flocking to e-gold in DROVES.

But before that happens, WalMart has gotta price things in ounces (or
atoms!) of gold...

Screw WalMart. Do the gold credit card.

-- Patrick

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[e-gold-list] RE: Costa Gold

2002-10-23 Thread R.LeVeque

Ragnar,

I do believe that CostaGold is his-to-re...

244983 costagold escrow account Disputed Funds
 Gold 4,069.89oz. 126,587.6g

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/costagoldrefunds/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/costagold_ag/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/costagold/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/offsitecostagoldclubandchat1/

Regards,

RJ
http://www.americonn.com



> Does anyone know the status of the Costa Gold matter with
> e-gold?  Does anyone have contact information for Costa Gold
> management?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Ragnar
> CFO - Gold Age  http://www.gold-age.net
 


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[e-gold-list] Accounting, User Management & Authentication Software for e-gold merchants

2002-10-23 Thread Dreamcost Co

DreamAccount is a billing, user management & authentication, registration,
subscription, order, and affiliate management softare package for
companies selling digital goods.

We are proud to announce that DreamAccount v.2.9 fully supports e-gold
payments, so you can sell your downloadable products to customers who wish
to pay via e-gold.

Read more about this software at: www.dreamcost.com/?page=dreamaccount

Thanks!
Tony Landis
Dreamcost.com

Email questions to: sales at softbuys dot com

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[e-gold-list] e-gold scheduled downtime notification

2002-10-23 Thread Jay W.

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

see:
http://www.e-gold.com/unsecure/downtime.html

when:
Wednesday October 30, 2002 16:00 GMT thru
Wednesday October 30, 2002 19:00 GMT

what:
routine maintenance, system database maintenance, system hardware maintenance

during the times listed at the above URL, the e-gold system will be
unavailable to end users as it undergoes maintenance.

we appreciate your patience during this timeframe.

jay w.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGP 7.0.4

iQEVAwUBPbbWhsyM0YPqVE7FAQHwDwf+N7jqTTPCy28uLodXr+sVPHWmJEB2/xSA
nWSqFyQvr2K7a4QSICcjcTzSurXMJBWUwIgLpZyAi+eZ+pPFJPgNMbYaWvvgOA2u
3XYQ8pANNZLXZm2OLlfbp7S6G+030hQqtCvmEpDlViUM7I2M0oAoaOlvhXhB8xil
rPb7hVBAxb7wJQquctVwFyOG0SieuXxOkS41o6eWaB+IRFBe4IRHsimvb+NpW2wD
CsnIh6AU0qAmfdQXYvOA3nbrWaHs5fPy8M8fxU9R3N/zjPZBH2w0aqHdtf14gvD9
aFS/LJwMCVInkJBR2UgGnsCo0MIS6IcT4VgeeZgl4rkg5m+Ie31zOA==
=GC14
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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[e-gold-list] Re: Reversible payments - go for it

I've failed to see throughout this thread how e-gold spends aren't
reversible. Wanna reverse a spend? Spend it back to the spender!
Presto! Your spend is reversed, and each party is only out the low
spend fees.



that's an outstanding point Jim  *doh* !





What we're talking about instead is *repudiable* payments.



Right ... a system like "credit cards" offers this ability.

Since "credit cards" work perfectoly and there's no need to reinvent 
the wheel, I believe eventually credit cards will just add "e-gold" 
to the currencies they handle.

But before that happens, WalMart has gotta price things in ounces (or 
atoms!) of gold...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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[e-gold-list] Re: Reversible payment (was: Re: Pecunix Invitation)

2002-10-23 Thread James M. Ray

At 12:23 PM -0400 10/23/02, Patrick Chkoreff wrote:
>At 11:10 AM 10/23/2002 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
...
>>I believe ultimately this will make for a BETTER tighter type of merchant, 
>>as ultimately there is no room for everything-means-nothing slop.  A 
>>merchant that did do something "bad' would be more catastrophically 
>>punished for it; consumers would be much more choosy.
>
>Intriguing!  Serving the customer is one thing, but prostitution is going a 
>bit too far, eh?  :-)  Bad analogy though, because as I understand it the 
>prostitute demands her money up front.  So I've heard.  :-)

I think this analogy can actually help us to better understand things.
The oldest profession demands money up-front for good reasons,
and no-doubt because of...uh...hard experience.  Joking aside, this is totally rational behavior on their
part.

I've failed to see throughout this thread how e-gold spends aren't
reversible. Wanna reverse a spend? Spend it back to the spender!
Presto! Your spend is reversed, and each party is only out the low
spend fees. 

What we're talking about instead is *repudiable* payments. There
are plenty of varieties of these to choose from, and I'm with JP in
that I *like* the effects of non-repudiable spends, on balance. No
system, of course, is going to look perfect in every instance.
JMR

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[e-gold-list] Re: Reversible payment (was: Re: Pecunix Invitation)

At 11:10 AM 10/23/2002 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

...Merchants (who are just people too) may give the big finger to pussy 
customers who are indecisive.

(Funnliy enough, I just realized Bananagold is like this ... NO 
refunds.  I, say, just can't be bothered dealing with pussy consumers who 
dunno what "action" is.)

I believe ultimately this will make for a BETTER tighter type of merchant, 
as ultimately there is no room for everything-means-nothing slop.  A 
merchant that did do something "bad' would be more catastrophically 
punished for it; consumers would be much more choosy.

Intriguing!  Serving the customer is one thing, but prostitution is going a 
bit too far, eh?  :-)  Bad analogy though, because as I understand it the 
prostitute demands her money up front.  So I've heard.  :-)

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Re: Reversible payment (was: Re: Pecunix Invitation)

Danny makes a good case that purchasers want credit in the form of
reversible payments. Merchants are willing to extend that credit to
drum up more business and establish their integrity. Ultimately the
merchants want money (e.g. e-gold), but in the meantime they are
willing to take a calculated risk.

You know what though . IMHO as we make the large cultural shift
from the nanny state of the 20th century (where there was always some
larger group looking after you, actions had no meaning or substance,
and there was no risk or reality in the world) ... to the New
Enlightenment Individualist paradigm (words and actions have meaning,
caveat emptor, no-one will help you, look after yourself), this may
change.Merchants (who are just people too) may give the big
finger to pussy customers who are indecisive.

(Funnliy enough, I just realized Bananagold is like this ... NO
refunds. I, say, just can't be bothered dealing with pussy consumers
who dunno what "action" is.)

I believe ultimately this will make for a BETTER tighter type of
merchant, as ultimately there is no room for everything-means-nothing
slop. A merchant that did do something "bad' would be more
catastrophically punished for it; consumers would be much more choosy.

JP!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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[e-gold-list] Re: Reversible payment (was: Re: Pecunix Invitation)

At 10:08 AM 10/23/2002 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

IG systems are meant to be *monies* in the same way that USD and Euros are
moneys.

Reversible payments in e-gold or goldmoney makes little sense.

It would be like having "reversible US dollars"

Credit cards are, of course, something that *OPERATES WITH* US
Dollars. Indeed, in the future, if e-gold is really popular there will be
credit cards that operate with e-gold.
...

Yes, credit and money are two different things.

Reversible payments are a form of credit. The merchant ships you the goods
because he believes you will not reverse the payment. That belief is
credit. The word "credit" derives from the Latin "credere," meaning to
believe or trust.

Money does not require belief, trust, or credit. When the merchant
receives money (e.g. e-gold), the transaction is settled as far as he is
concerned.

Danny makes a good case that purchasers want credit in the form of
reversible payments. Merchants are willing to extend that credit to drum
up more business and establish their integrity. Ultimately the merchants
want money (e.g. e-gold), but in the meantime they are willing to take a
calculated risk.

If you can devise financial systems that will satisfy both the purchasers
and the merchants, you will make a pile of money.

-- Patrick

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[e-gold-list] Costa Gold

2002-10-23 Thread Ragnar

Does anyone know the status of the Costa Gold matter with
e-gold?  Does anyone have contact information for Costa Gold
management?



=
Regards,

Ragnar
CFO - Gold Age  http://www.gold-age.net

Find a reputable exchange provider to buy digital currencies here:
http://www.libertyimpact.com/ex.htm

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[e-gold-list] Re: Reversible payment (was: Re: PecunixInvitation)

IG systems are meant to be *monies* in the same way that USD and 
Euros are moneys.

Reversible payments in e-gold or goldmoney makes little sense.

It would be like having "reversible US dollars"

Credit cards are, of course, something that *OPERATES WITH* US 
Dollars.  Indeed, in the future, if e-gold is really popular there 
will be credit cards that operate with e-gold.

Or .. PrayPal for instance, may decide to offer e-gold accounts. 
(Much as they may decide to expand to say Euros, of Canadian Dollars.)


(You get newbie kiddies from ebay etc that mistakenly think praypal, 
credit cards, checks, IG, dollars, flooz are all the "same thing" or 
"just transactions methods" .. .whatever.)


In short once Visa and Mastercard offer "e-gold" accounts** (just as 
they currently offer not only USD, but Can, Euros, Yen, etc...), that 
is the correct solution to the desire for merchants to offer a 
reversible-like payment system.  You can't have a money itself (a 
supposed IG system) being reversible  the simple case then is 
that it's not a money system, it's just some sort of quasi 
transactional system.



**ETA 2010

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[e-gold-list] Re: Reversible payment (was: Re: Pecunix Invitation)

At 05:01 PM 10/23/2002 +0300, Danny Van den Berghe wrote:


Offering reversible payment does not destroy the integrity of a currency.
If a merchant chooses to accept reversible payment, it is his decision.

This is the second big mistake GBC have made.
They try to make their profit as soon as the client enters the door.
It is much better to make money while he is already in the shop or when he
leaves the place.



Thanks for these excellent and cogent comments, Danny.  You've got me thinking.

-- Patrick


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[e-gold-list] Reversible payment (was: Re: Pecunix Invitation)