[e-gold-list] The impressive progress of the Caliphate
Dear Khurram, Dark ages in Europe, but a lot of scientific and social advancements were made in the Muslim world during this period. I think the idea that this time was utterly dark in Europe is mistaken. But there was great progress in the Muslim world. I should very much like to hear your thoughts on social advances in the Muslim world in this period. Below are some thoughts on engineering and science in the Caliphate. Islamic engineers proposed plans to dam the Nile as early as the Tenth Century. Various other dams, reservoirs, and aqueducts built in that time still survive. Muslim engineers also perfected the waterwheel and built underground water channels some fifty feet underground. The underground channels had openings from the street so that they could be cleaned and repaired. In what is now Iran and Afghanistan, engineers developed a sort of windmill using sails that revolved in a horizontal plane around a vertical axis. That invention was developed in the Seventh Century. By the end of the Tenth Century the heavy plow was a very formidable agricultural weapon equipped with a colter cutting vertically into the sod, a flat plowshare cutting the grass horizontally at the roots, and a moldboard designed to turn the slice of turf - all developed in the Caliphate. Fine steel was made for the first time in Damascus and Toledo, both of which were famous for the quality of their steel weapons. Indeed Damascus steel was renowned even in comparatively backward Europe in that time. Paper was introduced from China to the Caliphate and developed into an important industry - which allowed for the rapid spread of copies of the Koran and later, with the printing press, of the Bible and other important documents. Although Gutenberg certainly is credited with the Western development of the printing press, paper making from the Caliphate was a vital industry, without which books would not have been as widespread. Muslim scientists developed the astrolabe, an instrument used long before the invention of the sextant to observe the position of celestial bodies. I've previously mentioned algebra and astronomy. Anyone familiar with the names of stars knows of the heavy Arabic influence. Mizar, Alcor, al Debaran, and many others were cataloged first by Arab astronomers of the Caliphate. Trade and commerce were facilitated from the 7th Century to the 14th Century by the adoption of the Islamic gold dinar and the silver dirham throughout the Caliphate - from Moorish Spain to Islamic Indonesia - for trade and commerce. The Byzantine gold solidus or bezant was also used in trade in this region. Really amazing stuff. Regards, Jim http://www.ezez.com/ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Economic lunacy
> Hmmm. 450 to 1453 AD is not exactly known as a time of > great progress. > It is better known as the dark middle ages. Dark ages in Europe, but a lot of scientific and social advancements were made in the Muslim world during this period. Khurram Khan --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] fits of the survivalists
Dear George, Survival of the fittest? By the way, the free enterprise system represents cooperation at its very finest. Socialists and communists pretend that they are looking out for the interests of others, but the reality is much nastier. In a free enterprise system, those with the most to gain from private property - the poorest - are most protected. In a socialist or communist system, their property is the first to be seized, because they have the least means to defend it. Socialism and communism are great systems for those in power, and lousy for those who aren't. These systems prey upon the individuals who are capable of producing wealth. Which is why it is so important for money to be redeemable for gold. Gold can be trusted, and politicians can't, and even a great socialist weenie like George Bernard Shaw recognized this fact. Regards, Jim http://www.ezez.com/ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Reserve Bank economic controls and polygamy. Was Re: When e-gold takes off in a big way
Hello Ian, Actually the 4 wives rule is more of a guideline than a rule and once you practice polygamy you will realize that the only way to keep the wives at bay is to keep adding ;o) That said, isn't the reason governments *want* and *need* inflation simply that it is the only way to continue faking growth while robbing everybody blind and paying yesterday's lies with tomorrow's promises? Meaning, inflation is required to hide the fact that tax payers are the ones who are paying the interest on government debts through a slow and continued devaluation of their cash. Without inflation, banks would over an average interest life time of 14 years (when interest is at 5% and inflation at 0%, allowing for compounding interest and regular 'refinancing' of government debt at 1:1 ratio) own all available cash in the country. In other words, if there was 1,000,000 total available currency and the government spent that 1,000,000 into circulation and then borrowed 1,000,000 afterwards, then after 14 years, it would be broke, owe the bank 1,000,000 and nobody would have a cent as the banks would have all cash funds and would be owed 1,000,000 at the same time. Of course, this could not work as the cash starved economy would have died much earlier - or would be 100% owned by the banks as well, resulting in banks lending money to each other just to keep the total available currency in circulation and the economy functioning. In the end, the only thing that would work, is to get rid of interest. If there is no interest (paid or charged) then money is a fixed denominator of value (as it should be). If that happened, ther would be no inflation and no way for the government to get loans. that in turn would reduce taxes. And then one asks himself, do we really need neverending *growth*? Especially if the growth is not real to begin with? A gold-currency becomes only necessary because of ursurping interests and criminally careless governments. No interest, no public debt, no inflation and you can call your currency whatever you want - back it with square miles of space or hectolitres of air, if you want. Back it with nothing. Just don't print more and stop claiming that the economy expands if the expansion is not real. Cheers, Robert. budget & privacy website hosting http://www.cyberica.net e-commerce & e-business services http://www.cyfrocash.net budget domain registrations http://www.u2planet.com --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Gold Stores Sony VAIO Laptop Special, one only $1400 delivered
Sony VAIO PCG-FRV25 Notebook (2.66-GHz Pentium 4, 512 MB RAM, 40 GB Hard Drive, DVD/CD-RW Drive) Brand new and guaranteed shipped directly from Amazon.com $1400 includes shipping within the US, Int'l is extra Here is the link, looking for e-gold http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B9EEIS/qid=1065500122/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-5189025-1120638?v=glance&s=pc&n=507846 One only going to first buyer. [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: communists in Romania
So... if inflationary fiat (fake) money works better than real money because people are so eager to get rid of it before it loses value that it kicks the economy into a frenzy of action... Then fake computers which slow down by 10% every year would be great for the economy too, because people would be eager to get their work done now while the machine still had some speed in it, thus kicking the economy into a frenzy of action... We need government to step in and save us from Moore's law, which is going to destroy us, as people hoard their e-commerce ideas waiting for the time when increases in computing power and network proliferation will automatically make these "savings" more valuable with no effort on their part. If the government doesn't do something soon, all the great ideas will go into such private savings and the economy will run completely flat out dry of new ideas! http://hannibal.2cw.org --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] e-gold is World Wide Money
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- thanks to several e-gold users we have verified additions to the e-gold mobile provider list here: http://mobile.e-gold.com Hello Estonia, Slovenia, Sweden and the United Kingdom! jay w. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 7.0.4 iQEVAwUBP4HfyMyM0YPqVE7FAQFeywf/ewsiAjWzS5UMeQTTS5/xCq4nyMRgJdU7 Ay/N3+SIOTr62Ats+R/DOXnItS241OCksPgnHCFUlV+VPi+PkSveMEKw5lnjZ2MD rgCSoHJhCnJuPINcr5+15xDaaVn8ENL39B36xfQHsVtoL9gYNwfI+g0jAeciJSAN ly+Hz8R4jrrwE4UUEAhEC6LnVVF2qLX72VpqMz7g9etQlTPaHMFZktrM+mtWAHO2 4/pNRDl/QQWwmS7RTb4/eIQblUxI5AzxGihtRhDRg7NZey+FrLOfjVvhBF3JVt8h QRrjdnqhR7+SWTx/bVflMcmQyhJnflnwD7L70jFl4KX1uh5IGIxojw== =e8Kf -END PGP SIGNATURE- --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: communists in Romania
Dear George, About your "subject"... I think you have a problem with equality since I see you refer to people with different ideas than yours, as "socialist" and "communist" Actually, that's not true. I refer to people with socialistic ideas as socialist and those with communistic ideas as communist. I don't think people are all equally blessed with meritorious ideas. Socialism and communism are theft and murder, very thinly disguised. I don't agree that people who hold to outmoded ideas like socialism or communism should be treated equally with those who have adopted laissez faire free enterprise as their preferred form of economics. It is foolish to suppose that because tens of millions of people have idiotic ideas about socialism that they are all right. Counting noses never helps solve any problem because on the whole, noses aren't involved in reason. For the same basic reason, people with mistaken, Keynesian ideas about economics are anathema to me. I'm not the "hero of the e-gold list." If being heroic means ignoring the foolishness of fools and the determined viciousness of communists and socialists, then I'm not interested in that sort of heroism. I won't suffer fools gladly, and I won't call a thief a tax collector. Some may feel that it is worth the time or trouble to pretend that all ideas are of equal merit or that those who espouse foolish ideas should be treated with respect. I'm not on that list. as if you are looking down on them. I am looking down at those who have socialistic and communistic ideas. Espousing those ideas is a mistake and acting on them is immoral. There are things which are right and there are other things which are wrong, and it is vital to understand the difference between the two. Stealing money through taxes or inflation is theft, and it is wrong. Murdering people who have ideas different from socialists and communists is very prevalent in socialist and communist countries. You don't like a government to have too much power, That's actually false, as well. I like the individual to govern himself, and he exerts all political power as an individual. I don't like external, coercive government to have any power. yet you have no problem with a company (those who would mine the gold - everybody's money) having too much?! I don't agree that the gold is everybody's money. If Patrick Chkoreff has made such an argument, he is either mistaken or you've misunderstood him, or both. What is the principle that guides you: everybody on his own? Survival of the fittest? The principle that guides me is private property. Everybody is on his own, and anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something. I actually didn't consider (and am still puzzled) until today that most members of this list (and all DGCs) are people who hate the paper money and all forms of government. There is a lot to hate about paper money. It has proven to be awesomely destructive. There is a lot to hate about external, coercive government. It has proven to be awesomely destructive. Governments like those of Stalin, Ceausescu, Hitler, Tojo, and Mao were responsible for tens of millions of deaths in the 20th Century. I am not one who hates all forms of government. I like one form of government - self-government is a great thing. Nevertheless, there are all kinds of libertarians who think they can reform the political system by voting, authoritarians who think they can force others to be more like them, and anarchists who use e-gold and other digital gold currencies. Not everyone agrees with me. Which is why I work to get them to see reason. I just thought that DGCs were a better system (than fiat currency and banking) If you think that digital gold is a better system than fiat currency and banking, then why are you promoting inflationary paper money in opposition to the system Patrick was describing? born to help people send money with extreme easiness anywhere in the world, Digital gold currencies were designed to make their operators wealthy. They do so by having many other very desirable features for both exchange of value and storage of value - the two main functions of money. money that can be trusted because it is backed by a universal commodity. So, how is your paper fiat money trustworthy, then? Am I mistaken in identifying your previous discussion with Patrick as one in which you were opposing his gold only economy and touting an inflationary paper money scheme? I admit that is my mistake! One of the difficulties of English is that certain words are used to identify an antecedent, but are often used without explicitly identifying the particular antecedent. So, when yhou write "that" is your mistake, I don't know whether "that" is your failure to see the difficulties of externally imposed coercive governments, your failure to see the problems with inflationary paper money, or some other problem. Regards, Jim http://www.ezez.com/ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list
[e-gold-list] Re: When e-gold takes off in a big way
>(1) An individual saves money, i.e. > spends less than he earns. (2) The individual seeks a return on his > savings, so he invests it with, say, a venture capital firm. (3) An > entrepreneur approaches the venture capitalist with a promising > business plan. (4) The venture capitalist invests a pile of the > savings entrusted to him into the new business. (5) The new business > makes a pile of profit, i.e. spends less than it earns. (6) The > venture capitalist keeps a hefty chunk of the profit and pays out > another hefty chunk to the individuals who have invested their savings > with him. (7) Everybody becomes happier than they were before. No > enslavement was necessary, only the profit motive. The only problem is that when you have individuals and businesses that spend less than they earn inorder to 'save' or have profits, then you will also need people in the system who spend more than they earn to keep balance. Otherwise this economy will shrink and point(7) will become very questionable. And if you have only a limited supply of money, which is the case with gold, then it is entirely possible for these individuals and businesses who 'save', to collect (nearly) all the gold. At that moment also point (3)(4)(5) and (6) become questionable, because when the consumers have little or no gold left, what further profit is there to be made? The economy comes to a screetching halt unless you introduce credit in the system. Once you introduce credit in the system you are basically reinventing paper money > > Let me spell something else out for you very simply. The scenario > described above is possible regardless of what form of money is being > used. You can use fiat paper, gold, silver, seashells, commercial > paper, government bonds, or Yap stones and the whole thing still works. True. > The only difference is that with fiat paper the value of the savings > drops steadily and this functions as a continuous tax on all wealth > with the proceeds going to a privileged group. With gold the value of > the savings remains essentially constant. Thus, people are rewarded > for saving and for making judicious, well-timed investments. The fiat money is not a problem at all, as long as you have free markets. If you don't want the value of your savings to drop, just park them into something that does not decay. You can buy gold, silver, anything... If you don't like the paper money, just buy gold. That's what I call freedom of choice. Nobody forces you to keep your savings in fiat currency. Don't get me wrong. I am quite confident that a few decades from now these dollars and euros will be worth much less than now, if not worthless. But that won't effect the real value of the gold and silver, the stocks and the house I have bought with them... > Let me go even further than that. Even when people use gold as money, > they can still set up banks which receive gold on deposit and engage in > fractional reserve lending to create additional deposit currency -- as > long as the bank explicitly spells out the terms of the arrangement in > a clear contract with its depositors. Then you are already essentially back to the paper money system we have now. > And let me go even further than that. Although I despise the > imposition of income and wealth (property) taxes, if a society uses > gold as money and imposes taxes to be paid in gold, I would view that > as an improvement over requiring taxes to be paid in fiat paper. Given the choice, I would immediately prefer a country with a fiat currency that is inflated at 10% per year and no income taxes over a country with gold backed currency that taxes my income at 10% And as long as my fiat currency can buy gold on the free market, I don't see any meaningful difference between paying taxes in gold or in fiat currency. Danny --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Economic lunacy
Dear Danny, Hmmm. 450 to 1453 AD is not exactly known as a time of great progress. Yes, it is. It was a time of great progress in Byzantium and in the Caliphate. The Caliphate eventually succumbed to the Mongol hordes of Genghis Khan, and Constantinople finally fell to the Turks. But, during this time, there were great advances in agriculture, military technology, gunpowder, printing presses. You have no idea. It is better known as the dark middle ages. Maybe in backwards places like England or Belgium. The Hanseatic League did very well in this period. Renaissance Italy saw much of its flower bloom from the Twelfth to Fifteenth Centuries. You could look it up. Algebra was developed to a crescendo by a guy named al Jebra in the Caliphate during this time. William of Ockham learned to shave with his Razor, so England wasn't utterly devoid of progress. Saddles were improved with stirrups, allowing armored knights to guard the countryside in much of Europe. Several new types of plows were developed, along with a harness that wouldn't choke horses or oxen. Everything remained stagnant for 1000 years. You are an ignorant savage who knows nothing about the progress of the ages. basically it was a time of slow and continuous decline. Again, you write from ignorance. The period was a time of dramatic developments in fields as diverse as astronomy and agriculture. Trade and commerce flourished. The time of dramatic decline was from the heights of 175 BC in Egypt and Greece to the nadir of the Roman Empire around 250 AD. The Romans burned more libraries and murdered more scholars (e.g., Archimedes) than any other empire on Earth. Brutal savages, the Romans were famous for debasing their coinage. No mistake that "fiat" is a Latin word. Yeah, and that's a wonderful encouragement to the workers if you lower their wages... You are the vicious thug who insists on imposing paper money on these workers, not me. I'm not the one who is destroying the value of savings and pensions to the detriment of everyone in the hypothetical economy, you are. I think the workers would be better off if they would string you up from a lamppost for your economic lunacy. Yet, Italy created Ferrari cars, luxury clothes and shoes, Now who is enthusing about wealth for the few? What exact percentage of the Italian people were driving around in Ferraris? The modest inflation they got encouraged people to trade their liras for something that keeps value a little longer. Yes, and that purportedly modest inflation caused all kinds of dramatic capital flight. Italy in that period went through a new government every six months. Many Italians fled to more stable economies, and even more moved their wealth over the Alps into Swiss francs. Economies elsewhere were much healthier and much wealthier, without so much inflation. It served their economy well. There is no point in discussing this nonsense with you. You wouldn't know a sound economy from a gulag. But I certainly agree that inflation of 20% or more will be counterproductive. So, what magic wand do you propose to wave to prevent inflation of 20%, once you have inflation at 10%? No, the savings kill the economy. I see. Savings is bad because it is capital, and you are some sort of vicious socialist thug. The money that is hoarded does not serve any exchange of goods anymore. It does serve its owners as a store of value. And, it is a thug who is opposed to private stockpiles. Why? Because they are harder to steal. Besides, money that is saved is often available for investments. It is not necessarily the case that savings are in the form of cash. I just happen to live in Bulgaria since last year, and this is one of the countries that was part of this Byzantine empire. That's nice. A great deal of the gold ended up in the churches where it never left You'd be amazed at how thin gold leaf really is. Nevertheless, I am not a great supporter of the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. anymore. (Just visit any Orthodox church today and you will see the gold on the walls everywhere.) Where individuals choose to put their money is their business. While the gold accumulated in some rich families and mostly in the churches and monasteries, the economy simply ran dry on cash. You are badly mistaken. The economy ran quite well, for a thousand years. Makes the economy of one of the inflationist governments of Italy look like a mayfly in comparison. It was force that killed the economy of Constantinople, first with the Mongols overrunning most of Asia and the Caliphate, then their successors the Turks sacking Constantinople itself. Kubla Khan turned around and used the gold solidus as the unit of value for his mulberry bark paper money, which destroyed the economy of China in a short time. I did not say that the people in the 5% top group never change... You suggest that money never changes hands, though. Ridiculous. The wealthy spend more money and are often more in debt than others
[e-gold-list] Re: communists in Romania
On Monday, October 6, 2003, at 08:15 PM, FileMatrix wrote: You don't like a government to have too much power, yet you have no problem with a company (those who would mine the gold - everybody's money) having too much?! What is the principle that 1. Those who would mine the gold don't have "everybody's money", they have money they have worked hard to produce, perhaps foregoing opportunities in other areas like microchip development or software, where the returns on investment could be far higher. Digging gold out of the earth is about as basic a method of generating wealth as agriculture. In a developed society, there are many more opportunities for wealth generation, and the most profitable have to do with ideas, not goods at all. 2. A company can't coerce others into not digging for gold themselves, but governments can and do coercively prevent people from freely owning and transporting gold. all forms of government. I just thought that DGCs were a better system (than fiat currency and banking) born to help people send money with extreme easiness anywhere in the world, money that can be trusted because it is backed by a universal commodity. Yes, DGCs can be trusted because they are backed by real value, not smooth-talk designed to camouflage the act of robbing you of 10% of your assets every year, and to convince you that this annually compounded theft is actually good for you! Just curious, no offense intended... did you learn your economics at a state-run school? H --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Reserve Bank economic controls and polygamy. Was Re: When e-gold takes off in a big way
> From: Steve Schear > Sent: Tuesday, 7 October 2003 3:35 AM > Subject: [e-gold-list] Re: When e-gold takes off in a big way [Addressing FileMatrix, he writes:) > Well, as the joke goes... we've already established what you > are, now we're > just haggling over the price. Inflation is theft. What you > seem to be > implying is that its OK to steal a little, everybody does > this. This reminds me of when Moslems point out that the Islamic restriction of men to no more than four wives was such an improvement in the treatment of women compared to the polytheism (and unrestrained polygamy) that was in Arabia before. But from our (and the first wife's) perspective it is still polygamy. In the same way, when the Reserve Bank of Australia began its inflation-targeting policy, it was such an improvement on the more interventionist (exchange-rate controlling) policy before it, which had resulted in strangling the economy with 18% interest rates and high inflation and high unemployment while trying (in vain) to maintain a stable exchange rate (against US Dollars). The reasoning (for the current policy) was that avoiding high inflation keeps the local economy healthy, which in the long run improves the value of the local currency as measured against the greenback (or at least against the "trade-weighted index" of currencies). This has been quite successful, but the RBA in their 'fight inflation first' (inflation targeting) policy chose to define this as (successfully) endeavouring to keep inflation in the two to three percent range. The logic behind the 2-3 percent desirable inflation range was twofold. 1. When measuring inflation on a 'basket' of goods and services, the price of the particular goods and services may inflate slightly, while competition enables consumers to choose different goods and services that provide better value for money. The resulting changes are only reflected some years later when economists realise that they must choose a different, more representative basket of goods and services. This is why the CPI (consumer price index) is not calculated on a basket including horseshoes, saddles and horse feed like it may have included a hundred years ago. Obviously the basket of goods should include everything sold in the entire economy, and should therefore be continually changing, but this is not practical for making economic measurements! 2. Trying to hold inflation to a hard and exacting target of zero might require 'wild' fluctuations in interest rates, further depressing economic activity in the long run, whereas having a range of movement requiring no adjustment (manipulation) allows for some natural fluctuation, which evens out in the long run. So, compensating for this effect it is supposed that true price stability may be represented by an inflation rate of two or three percent. In this case a policy of targeting zero CPI increases would require Reserve Bank policies to induce real deflation thereby inadvertently restricting real economic growth! Relating this back to the 'four wives is not so much polygamy' comparison, what if at times (due to varying rates of change in the representative basket of goods and services) the correct adjusted CPI inflation target *should* be sometimes less than two percent (or more than three percent)? In years like that the Reserve Bank is then (and bear in mind that they are only using the crude tool of official interest rates to drive inflation), inflating away people's wealth and savings (or in the opposite condition, through real deflation, favouring another group of people to the detriment of others). Naturally we should avoid taking any metaphor too far, so I might note that the comparison does NOT work the other way, to imply that having a little more than one wife would result in true monogamy! :^o Best regards, Ian Green http://iangreen.2cw.org PS: Nothing in the above should be taken to indicate endorsement of government (or quasi-government) manipulation or measurement of the economy. This is the beauty of a free market, *gold* (non-fiat) economy, that the market takes care of these things without economists representing government-like force making official tweaks (to interest rates or money supply) to keep things running smoothly! --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Fidex will buy e-gold at spot! (Western Union)
Special offer this week: Fidex will buy your e-gold at the spot rate. No percentage deductions, no Fidex fees. This applies to all out-exchanges (sell e-gold) transactions by Western Union this week. Send Principal conditions: -Maximum one transaction per person under this offer -You are responsible for fees charged by Western Union -Transactions only applicable in Euros (you can receive other currencies - we will send Euros, Western Union will pay you out the equivalent in your local currency) -Offer expires 10 October 2003, midnight How to take advantage of this offer: This is a special, limited time offer which is not mentioned on the Fidex website. You simply need to spend the amount of gold you wish to out-exchange in Euros to Fidex's e-gold account 250546. Then send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] specifying the batch number, and the name, address and phone number of the person who should receive the funds by Western Union. The transaction will be dealt with within 24 hours. If you have any questions: If you have questions about this or any other Fidex service, please don't hesitate to email me directly: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Regards Nick Scott Marketing Director - European Representative Office Fidex Financial Services Group http://e-fidex.com --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: communists in Romania
Dear Jim, > Are you opposed to gold because it hasn't been nationalized by the so-called "dictatorship of the proletariat"? Maybe you have not read what Patrick said about gold belonging to *people*, not to the country. In that sense I told you that the mined gold doesn't belong to the people. There was no reference (in any of my posts) that all people are or should be equal. About your "subject"... I think you have a problem with equality since I see you refer to people with different ideas than yours, as "socialist" and "communist" (that's a first, I was actually wondering when you'll say it), as if you are looking down on them. You don't like a government to have too much power, yet you have no problem with a company (those who would mine the gold - everybody's money) having too much?! What is the principle that guides you: everybody on his own? Survival of the fittest? I actually didn't consider (and am still puzzled) until today that most members of this list (and all DGCs) are people who hate the paper money and all forms of government. I just thought that DGCs were a better system (than fiat currency and banking) born to help people send money with extreme easiness anywhere in the world, money that can be trusted because it is backed by a universal commodity. I admit that is my mistake! Best regards, George Hara www.filematrix.xnet.ro --- Xnet scaneaza automat toate mesajele impotriva virusilor folosind RAV AntiVirus. Xnet automatically scans all messages for viruses using RAV AntiVirus. Nota: RAV AntiVirus poate sa nu detecteze toti virusii noi sau toate variantele lor. Va rugam sa luati in considerare ca exista un risc de fiecare data cand deschideti fisiere atasate si ca MobiFon nu este responsabila pentru nici un prejudiciu cauzat de virusi. Disclaimer: RAV AntiVirus may not be able to detect all new viruses and variants. Please be aware that there is a risk involved whenever opening e-mail attachments to your computer and that MobiFon is not responsible for any damages caused by viruses. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: When e-gold takes off in a big way
On Monday, October 6, 2003, at 01:40 PM, Steve Schear wrote: At 12:11 PM 10/6/2003 -0400, Patrick Chkoreff wrote: It is also precisely why the US government will never allow the payment of taxes in gold, and why in the 1930's they banned businesses from writing contracts denominated in gold. The system we have can only be maintained by force of arms -- obey or go to jail. Can you quote a specific passage in current federal law that holds this? I looked at the legal tender laws a few years ago and found that it legal for a contact to demand settlement in gold or other commodity. Aren't gold futures settled this way? Right, I'm not sure what the current status is, I only know that there was a ban at the time. Here is an interesting history of the whole mess starting with the 1917 Trading With The Enemy Act all the way through FDR's fusillade of Executive Orders in 1933: http://users.rcn.com/mgfree/Economics/goldHistory.html About a quarter of the way down there is a section titled "How To Impair the Obligation of Contracts and Get Away With It." Here is an excerpt: The "proper transactions" and "maturing obligations calling for payment in gold" which the Treasury Department was coyly alluding to, involved what was known as 'gold clause contracts." These were agreements, quite common at the time, pursuant to which payment was to be made in gold. Needless to say, there were payments coming due in gold under these contracts every day all over America. Now that the government controlled the ownership of gold, how were these contracts to be performed? Were the contract obligers to be the "applicants" in question? In theory, perhaps, but not in practice. Under the regulations of April 29, it seemed that one might obtain a license from the Treasury and thus legally possess gold required for the contract performance. But no matter what the regulations implied, Acting Secretary Ballantine had announced that no one would receive a license until he had first surrendered his gold. 45 Moreover, how could the Treasury grant licenses even to persons who did surrender their gold, in the face of official policy which sought to establish a virtual government monopoly on all the gold in America? Accordingly, to solve this particular problem, the administration promptly prevailed on Congress to wipe out all obligations to pay in gold. The Joint Resolution of June 5, 1933 speaks for itself: Whereas the holding of or dealing in gold affect the public interest, and are therefore subject to proper regulation and restriction; and Whereas the existing emergency has disclosed that provisions of obligations which purport to give the obligee a right to require payment in gold or a particular kind of currency of the United States, or in an amount in money of the United States measured thereby, obstruct the power of the Congress to regulate the value of the money of the United States, and are inconsistent with the declared policy of the Congress to maintain at all times the equal power of every dollar, coined or issued by the United States, in the markets and in payment of debts. Now, therefore, be it resolved that (a) every provision contained in or made with respect to any obligation which purports to give the obligee a right to require payment in gold or a particular kind of coin or currency or an amount in dollars of the United States measured thereby, is declared to be against public policy; and no such provision shall be contained in or made with respect to any obligation hereafter incurred. Every obligation, heretofore or hereafter incurred, whether or not any such provision is contained therein or made with respect thereto shall be discharged upon payment, dollar for dollar, in any coin or currency which at the time of payment is legal tender for public and private debts. In short, because of the alleged but unspecified "emergency," all voluntary, private agreements to pay and to be paid in gold-past, present, and future-were declared against "public policy," and gold was no longer a medium of exchange between private individuals. Steve, I suspect you are right that such prohibition is ancient history. I don't know what happened to the prohibition against gold clauses, but after a few years the point probably became moot as contracts were settled because it was illegal to possess gold anyway. After the US forced its monetary wizardry on the people and psychologically conditioned a couple of generations to forget the old ways, culminating in the abolition of silver coinage in 1964, they were able to lift the ban on private gold ownership in 1974 without perceiving any threat to their interests. That may turn out to have been a mistake on their part, and they may eventually find it necessary to reinstate the old prohibitions. -- Patrick --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EM
[e-gold-list] Re: When e-gold takes off in a big way
At 12:11 PM 10/6/2003 -0400, Patrick Chkoreff wrote: It is also precisely why the US government will never allow the payment of taxes in gold, and why in the 1930's they banned businesses from writing contracts denominated in gold. The system we have can only be maintained by force of arms -- obey or go to jail. Can you quote a specific passage in current federal law that holds this? I looked at the legal tender laws a few years ago and found that it legal for a contact to demand settlement in gold or other commodity. Aren't gold futures settled this way? steve A foolish Constitutional inconsistency is the hobgoblin of freedom, adored by judges and demagogue statesmen. - Steve Schear --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: When e-gold takes off in a big way
At 07:07 PM 10/6/2003 +0300, "FileMatrix" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I think you need to check your facts. As Greenspan said All countries > that use non-gold backed fiat money inflate their currencies. Period. Steve, I was referring to over-inflating the currency - printing money without having economy to back it up with. Well, as the joke goes... we've already established what you are, now we're just haggling over the price. Inflation is theft. What you seem to be implying is that its OK to steal a little, everybody does this. Its only when things get out of hand and we go from a bit of shoplifting to grand larceny that you think there aught to be consequences. Unfortunately, as Greenspan has observed, once countries take the fork in the road to fiat currencies they knowingly discard the safety of specie for the flexibility to implicitly tax through inflation. Once governments operate in deficit-mode as the norm and try to manage the money so that they can appear to make this painless, it is really by degree different than the communists centrally managing their economies. That things will get well out of hand, eventually due to this course, is a given to Greenspan. From my perspective, your view that means its OK for citizens to print their own currency and pass it off as legit. As long a only a relative minority do so, and as long as its a good enough facsimile that it doesn't get caught till its too late to identify the perps or hurt the initial parties that accepted it, then fine. After all its just a little bit of inflation. The basis of all law is morality. Organizations, by their very nature, cannot be moral or immoral they are amoral. Therefore, I don't accede that the government, especially non-governmental organizations like the Fed, have any more authority to engage in activities than individual citizens. steve ..."it is not madmen who turn states into the brutal systems they are: it is the state itself that mobilizes our "dark side" energies into destructive practices, an end brought about only through our willingness to lose our individuality in the mass-mindedness that is essential to all political systems. In the language of "chaos" theory, the state becomes an "attractor" for the kinds of people who are disposed to use violence and intimidation against others; people who are willing to exploit the sociopathic nature of all political systems. It is not madmen to whom we must look for explanations of the genocides, wars, "terrorist" attacks, and other collective atrocities, but to our perpetuation of insane systems that amass those dark forces that we deny or repress at our peril." -- Butler Shaffer, "The Insanity of the State" --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] communists in Romania
Dear George, I agree, but there is one catch: the gold does not belong to the people. Gold very obviously belongs to some people. Are you opposed to gold because it hasn't been nationalized by the so-called "dictatorship of the proletariat"? Gold was nationalized in the Soviet Union. All those major gold mines were worked by the proletariat on behalf of their Communist Party masters. Don't like communism? Try socialism. The South African economy was based on socialist principles by none other than Cecil Rhodes. In fact, apartheid was the great achievement of socialists - moving black farmers off productive land which had been in their families for generations. Why move them off? Well, the gold mines needed workers. And the "great white fathers" knew what was best. Better to have a black man die in a mining accident than live to a ripe old age farming his own land. South Africa has, by the way, declared that the output of gold and diamond mines there is actually owned by the worthless men and women who run the government in spite of the fact that the government has invested no capital in the mines and no member of government has worked the mines. Isn't it typical? Productive people who are capable of mining gold have their production seized by worthless looters. So, the welth of those who mine the gold and of those who own the land increases with 2% per year, not of a country. Well, George, I don't care. Because that wealth has increased, those miners and land owners are able to spend more, invest more, and are better off. That is good for everyone. Any increase in wealth is a benefit to the entire "country." And those who won't get off their fat asses and work to produce wealth don't deserve any. What is this "country" to me? How many worthless scumbag politicians, bureau-rats, and welfare queens are you willing to work for? I'm not willing to work for any of them. The economics of altruism doesn't work. Making my choices based on what's good for anyone else is not workable, even if it were desirable for some weird reason. Regards, Jim http://www.ezez.com/ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Economic lunacy
Dear Jens, For whatever reason, your e-mail client describes you as: Wilkinson Jens in the "from" header of your e-mail messages. Since your e-mails come from Yahoo, you can probably change this setting in the "my settings" section. I regret not having looked closer at your e-mail address for a better clue to this matter. First of all, it may be that there would be some "slowing" of the economy due to the fact that people would not be prompted to spend money just to get rid of something that was dropping in value. I don't think that idea is true. What is described as a faster economy is one where everyone is seeking anything of value to get rid of that which will soon have none. The classic example was under the regime of John Law's Banque Royale in 18th Century France. Law was able to get a royal charter for his paper money. Some years before the collapse in 1720, some of France's more prominent citizens realized that it would become worthless very soon. These men were known as "realizers." Georges Oudard comments in his 1928 classic _The Amazing Life of John Law_: "Lagrange, one of the most famous among them bought up one entire issue of Bayle's Dictionary for want of anything better." He was unable to find gold, so this famous French mathematician (whose solution to the three body problem in two dimensions is still a classic) bought what he could find. When John Law's wife learned that a Paris shopkeeper had asked for 1,000 paper livres for cloth worth 360 gold livres, "Law had the foolish man sent for, and explained to him that there was only one currency in the kingdom, and that paper money was the equivalent of gold. 'Non!' the man said, 'Burn my cloth and you will find there is still something left afterwards. But if I burn one of your 1,000 livre notes, all that remains is just a little ash.'" Ash which blows away at the faintest breeze. But is that really a bad thing? I mean, do we really want the economy growing just because people want to get rid of money? I wouldn't call that any kind of economically healthy growth. In fact, there is a high cost to inflation, and rushing about with your pay trying to find a place to get rid of it, for food or vacation or an investment, is part of that cost. Pay for your meal in a restaurant when you sit down because the meal will cost more when you are finished eating! Imagine the economic cost of keeping the whiteboards filled with current prices! You'd have to write new code into the grocery store cash registers to keep up with the prices changing by the minute as the value of money deteriorates. What a huge wasted effort. You would dare not put a price tag on anything. It would cheat you by closing time. Danny will come back and insist that in his regime of 5% to 10% inflation, everyone benefits without having to change prices more than once per day. Of course, the economy includes many who are on fixed incomes and others who have saved money in the great expectation of living on their accumulated savings. In some cases these folks are elderly and such. It is rather horrifying for them to handle as much as 5% inflation every year. In twenty years, the entire value of every penny they've saved would be gone. And, once a currency is inflating at 5% to 10%, who is going to stop it? There will certainly be currency speculators. There will be an increasing uncertainty leading to "realizers" dumping it for other things of value. It is a belief in magic that leads someone to suppose that a currency can be persistently inflated at 5% to 10%. Economics doesn't work that way. I think that from an ecological perspective, it could be argued that it would be *better* to have people push back their spending. I'm not sure that environmentalism can teach us much of economic consequence except that environmentalists mostly hate the idea of private property. However, there is a considerable implicit waste in the system Danny has posited. So, in that sense, it would be bad for the ecology. If we consider human beings to be a natural aspect of the ecology, an inflationary economy is also very bad for them. I happen to think that people can so organize their affairs to improve the condition of very nearly everyone. I believe the best strategy we've found for doing so is a free enterprise system unhindered by government decrees. Since the only way to make paper money circulate is by decree, Danny is favoring a form of economics which might best be described as fascism. I favor a rational system of free market money in which different currency vendors offer their money to the market. I oppose the issue power of money in the hands of any government. All that government issued money has ever done is increase the amount of misery in the world. Though the real issue is, would a gold economy be realistic? "Anything which has happened is possible." Carl Mibeck. I think a question to ask is, why have gold-based currencies done well where other forms of online
[e-gold-list] Re: When e-gold takes off in a big way
On Monday, October 6, 2003, at 05:01 AM, FileMatrix wrote: Why stop at 10%? Crank it up to 20% He is not creating any value... Other people are creating the value. Really?! Why should they create value if you don't. You tell Danny not to stop at 10% inflation, yet you want *other* people to create value. And you talk about slavery now? They create value because they are being paid to do so. Let me spell it out for you in simple steps. (1) An individual saves money, i.e. spends less than he earns. (2) The individual seeks a return on his savings, so he invests it with, say, a venture capital firm. (3) An entrepreneur approaches the venture capitalist with a promising business plan. (4) The venture capitalist invests a pile of the savings entrusted to him into the new business. (5) The new business makes a pile of profit, i.e. spends less than it earns. (6) The venture capitalist keeps a hefty chunk of the profit and pays out another hefty chunk to the individuals who have invested their savings with him. (7) Everybody becomes happier than they were before. No enslavement was necessary, only the profit motive. Let me spell something else out for you very simply. The scenario described above is possible regardless of what form of money is being used. You can use fiat paper, gold, silver, seashells, commercial paper, government bonds, or Yap stones and the whole thing still works. The only difference is that with fiat paper the value of the savings drops steadily and this functions as a continuous tax on all wealth with the proceeds going to a privileged group. With gold the value of the savings remains essentially constant. Thus, people are rewarded for saving and for making judicious, well-timed investments. Let me go even further than that. Even when people use gold as money, they can still set up banks which receive gold on deposit and engage in fractional reserve lending to create additional deposit currency -- as long as the bank explicitly spells out the terms of the arrangement in a clear contract with its depositors. Here again I am affirming that I do not view the issuing of fiat paper or the practice of fractional reserve lending as inherently immoral actions. I only object to the use of fraud and force. The current system of fiat paper in the US was born in the iniquity of fraud (lying propaganda about economic salvation and stability) and force (theft and imprisonment, i.e. hand over your gold or go to jail). And let me go even further than that. Although I despise the imposition of income and wealth (property) taxes, if a society uses gold as money and imposes taxes to be paid in gold, I would view that as an improvement over requiring taxes to be paid in fiat paper. That way the government is limited to what the people will pay it outright and in full view, and would be denied the opportunity to collect a stealth tax on all wealth merely by issuing fiat tokens. This is precisely why the US government will never return to a true gold standard, i.e. certificates redeemable on demand in gold. It is also precisely why the US government will never allow the payment of taxes in gold, and why in the 1930's they banned businesses from writing contracts denominated in gold. The system we have can only be maintained by force of arms -- obey or go to jail. At a bare minimum, the US government could pass legislation allowing the payment of Federal taxes in gold, and remove the restriction against business contracts denominated in gold (this latter may already be the case, I don't know). First, let me reiterate that I think the entire income and FICA taxes should be abolished, but I am assuming for the sake of discussion that they will remain for a while. With that in mind, I think that allowing the payment of taxes in gold might significantly undermine the utility of the Fed's monopoly money because businesses could transact all day long in units of gold and still be able to meet whatever tax obligations they think they have without having to liquidate into fiat paper. To put it differently, businesses would be in a much stronger position to refuse to accept fiat paper altogether. I will say right now that I have not fully thought through the consequences of allowing taxes to be paid in gold. I only mention the idea because it appears that my primary moral objection to fiat paper is the forceful requirement that taxes be paid in it. If that is truly my ONLY moral objection to fiat paper, then it stands to reason that if that requirement is lifted I should have no further objections to the system as it is. Mind you, any objections I have to the payment of taxes at all are beside the point -- when taxes are paid in gold I may no longer object to fiat paper but I may still object to the taxes. We can cross that bridge when we get to it. -- Patrick --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PR
[e-gold-list] Re: When e-gold takes off in a big way
> I think you need to check your facts. As Greenspan said All countries > that use non-gold backed fiat money inflate their currencies. Period. Steve, I was referring to over-inflating the currency - printing money without having economy to back it up with. Forrest, I didn't get your "definitely" allusion?! ... And is (almost) funny how my hopelessly flawed monetary theories are used by most countries in the world. Best regards, George Hara www.filematrix.xnet.ro --- Xnet scaneaza automat toate mesajele impotriva virusilor folosind RAV AntiVirus. Xnet automatically scans all messages for viruses using RAV AntiVirus. Nota: RAV AntiVirus poate sa nu detecteze toti virusii noi sau toate variantele lor. Va rugam sa luati in considerare ca exista un risc de fiecare data cand deschideti fisiere atasate si ca MobiFon nu este responsabila pentru nici un prejudiciu cauzat de virusi. Disclaimer: RAV AntiVirus may not be able to detect all new viruses and variants. Please be aware that there is a risk involved whenever opening e-mail attachments to your computer and that MobiFon is not responsible for any damages caused by viruses. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: When e-gold takes off in a big way
At 12:01 PM 10/6/2003 +0300, FileMatrix wrote: Yes Steve, I agree with what you just said, but what you don't accept to understand is that USA is the only country that can afford to inflate its currency because the USD circulates in the entire world. So, for the other countries of the world it doesn't matter if they use or not gold as currency, because they can't afford to print more money than their assets' value. I think you need to check your facts. As Greenspan said All countries that use non-gold backed fiat money inflate their currencies. Period. steve "The State is the great fiction by which everyone seeks to live at the expense of everyone else." --Frederic Bastiat --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: When e-gold takes off in a big way
On Monday, October 6, 2003, at 12:55 AM, Steve Schear wrote: "Under a gold standard, the amount of credit that an economy can support is determined by the economy's tangible assets, since every credit instrument is ultimately a claim on some tangible asset," ... This reminds me of another important point. Businesses can always trade in commercial paper when they find gold settlement inconvenient. Commercial paper is, after all, a good and faithful promise to deliver specific goods at a future date. -- Patrick --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] forrest "looses" it, and please, George, stop . . .
Hello, Next to the word definitely, the most annoying misspelling I frequently observe on-line is "loose" for the word lose. Will you fucking "loosers" please shape up? . . . and, George, will you please refrain from any further tortured postings re: the economy and gold? I fear your hopelessly flawed monetary theories may irreparably set back any emerging global pecuniary freedom by decades. /rant best, forrest --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Economic lunacy
> > An economy where only gold is used as money, would have > > some problems. > > We actually have an example of such an economy. > Consider the Byzantine empire, from 450 to 1453 AD. > The entire economy was based on the gold solidus > coin. As a result, Byzantium traded with every > country in the known world, and their coins were > accepted for payment from China to England. Hmmm. 450 to 1453 AD is not exactly known as a time of great progress. It is better known as the dark middle ages. Everything remained stagnant for 1000 years. Certainly, a few rich people lived well on cheap slave labor during this time in Byzantine, but basically it was a time of slow and continuous decline. > > When the value of money rises people tend to postpone > > their (big) purchases, as they know they will pay less > > for the same good or service in the future. > > However, deflation can affect wages as well as prices, > so it isn't clear that your proposed strategy of > avoiding big purchases would work. Yes, in many > instances prices would be lower in the future, but > wages may also drop, which would mean that postponing > doesn't help. Yeah, and that's a wonderful encouragement to the workers if you lower their wages... > > (With paper money that looses 5 or 10% of its value > > every year, there is a strong incentive to use it or invest > > it in something that doesn't loose value so quickly. So the > > money moves faster and this economy runs better) > > This claim is drivel. It is utter nonsense. Only a > fool seeks 10% annual inflation. > > I've lived through years of 5 to 10% inflation in > the USA, and it was a miserable, awful time. I remember, before we got the Euro, that Italy consistently had inflation rates around 10% Regularly the Lira was devalued against other major currencies. Yet, Italy created Ferrari cars, luxury clothes and shoes, all kinds of beautiful stuff. The modest inflation they got encouraged people to trade their liras for something that keeps value a little longer. It served their economy well. Wages in Italy also rose at 10% or more a year, and people are usually happy and stimulated when their paycheck goes up (even if this 10% extra will only buy the same amount of stuff) But I certainly agree that inflation of 20% or more will be counterproductive. > > people will tend to accumulate the gold in their accounts > > because it is not a bad investment. > > In other words, savings will work as a strategy once again. No, the savings kill the economy. The money that is hoarded does not serve any exchange of goods anymore. I just happen to live in Bulgaria since last year, and this is one of the countries that was part of this Byzantine empire. A great deal of the gold ended up in the churches where it never left anymore. (Just visit any Orthodox church today and you will see the gold on the walls everywhere.) While the gold accumulated in some rich families and mostly in the churches and monasteries, the economy simply ran dry on cash. > > As result it will not be long until over 90% of the gold > > is in hands of only 5% of the population, > > Hmm? Auspicious reasoning from a socialist, but hardly > worthy of an economist. > > _Forbes_ magazine demolished this reasoning about a > decade ago. They found that the top 5% of income earners > after 20 years tend to be in a lower income group. The > bottom 5% of income earners tend to move into a higher > income group. Something like 95% of those in the bottom > income group move up one or more groups and over 90% > of those at the top drop back one or more. > > So, I think your reasoning is not consistent with the facts. I did not say that the people in the 5% top group never change... > > There will be liquidity problems > > Whereas with the central bankers managing things there > have been enormous liquidity crises every few years. Do > you remember the Asian Contagion? That was a pretty > major currency crisis, with all kinds of negative > consequences. The Great Depression was caused by an > enormous liquidity crisis built on inflationary paper > money. Yes, you will have liquidity crises now and then. But with 'only gold' you will have a continuous liquidity crisis. > If gold is too scarce to use as money in the economy, > silver meets the need. And when both gold and silver > are temporarily scarce, people are known to use copper > and platinum. That's exactly illustrating my point. Gold becomes too scarce and people start using silver. When silver is also scarce they use copper and platinum. Before you know it you are issuing 'money' with your house or any other tangible asset as backing. But then we are simply back to the paper dollar as a common denominator between the various tangible assets that back it. > > The main function of 'money' is to facilitate exchange > > of goods and services. > > No. Money has two functions. It functions as a medium > of exchange. It also functions as
[e-gold-list] Re: When e-gold takes off in a big way
> > In other words, this 'only gold' economy always functions with the > > brakes > > on. > > Yes, the computer industry is certainly functioning with the brakes on, > isn't it? My goodness, the amount of computing power you can get for > the money is doubling every year, so people tend to postpone buying a > computer as long as possible. Yeah, that's a pretty stagnant industry. Yes indeed, the computer industry is working with the brakes on. Fortunately there is still new demand for computers from first time buyers, but otherwise I know a lot of people who tell me that their computer is getting old, but they are waiting to buy till next year when for the same money they will probably get a 5GHz machine instead of the 2.5GHz they saw in the shop lately. > > (With paper money that looses 5 or 10% of its value every year, there > > is a > > strong incentive to use it or invest it in something that doesn't loose > > value so quickly. So the money moves faster and this economy runs > > better) > > Why stop at 10%? Crank it up to 20% and get people hopping like > they're jacked up on crystal meth. Too much of good thing becomes a bad thing. If the money looses value too quickly it will not be accepted well because you already loose by the time you reach the next shop to spend it. Or in other words: the money should not loose its value much quicker than the average product looses value on the shelf, otherwise the shopkeeper will be wiser not to sell you his stuff. In that case the money is 'too bad' and it will also hamper the economy. But if the money is so sound that it gains value against almost everything, then the people are rewarded not to use it, and that too hampers the economy. We need something in between. So, a modest erosion of the value of money is ideal, as it is still good enough to be accepted in exchange for goods and services, but not too good so that people are encouraged not to use it. And those who don't want their money to erode at all can always buy gold with it. No problems. > Seriously, the success of an economy is not measured by the speed at > which people buy lots of extraneous crap. It is measured by gains in > wealth and productivity created by mental ingenuity and effort financed > by capital invested from people's savings. It is driven by producers > and savers, not consumers. Yeah, but production and investment is driven by the consumers. What's the point in producing if nobody will consume it? When you have consumers who are willing to buy whatever new stuff you crank out, only then it makes sense to finance the new product and bring it in the market. So, ultimately new wealth creation is driven by consumption, and this consumption makes the production and investment worthwhile. This has nothing to do with buying useless crap. The world is still full with houses that can be repaired, usefull things that could improve life quality,... It is very unfortunate that so many people believe that the world will become richer if we save more. Yes, an individual becomes richer (in money terms) if he spends less than he earns. That's probably the reason why people easily believe that saving is the way to more wealth. But on macro economic scale things turn upside down: if people save the economy declines. This is not difficult to see. Let's consider two small countries with a population of 5 people. In both countries the 5 people have businesses and jobs, and they buy everything from each other. In country A each of them earns $100 a year and also spends $100 a year. They somehow get the idea that if they spend only $90 next year, they will be able to save $10 If they can do that for several years they will become 'rich'. What happens in the first year? Each of the 5 people spends only $90 in the shops of the others. But at the end of the year each of them discovers that business has dropped by 10% and only $90 was made. They did not succeed to save the $10. They will think it was smart to spent only $90 because otherwise they would now be in debt for $10 The next year they may try again and spend only $80 , hoping to save $10... But again they will discover that business declines. Eventually their economy will settle at survival level, where they cannot cut back on their spending any further. Now look at country B. They too earn $100 a year and spend $100 a year. Here the 5 people are a little more optimistic and they decide to spend an extra $10 on new stuff they don't have yet. They will pay back the extra $10 from the earnings of the following year. So each of them spends $110 At the end of the year they are all in for a pleasant surprise because they find out that business has boomed in their shop and $110 was made. So they are already out of debt at the end of the year, and they have lived richer.. Encouraged by the good economy they increase their spending again the next year and again they will find out that business booms. Eventually they will also have
[e-gold-list] Re: Economic lunacy
Dear Jim, > The supply of gold grows. What do you think gold mining companies are doing? I agree, but there is one catch: the gold does not belong to the people. So, the welth of those who mine the gold and of those who own the land increases with 2% per year, not of a country. Best regards, George Hara www.filematrix.xnet.ro --- Xnet scaneaza automat toate mesajele impotriva virusilor folosind RAV AntiVirus. Xnet automatically scans all messages for viruses using RAV AntiVirus. Nota: RAV AntiVirus poate sa nu detecteze toti virusii noi sau toate variantele lor. Va rugam sa luati in considerare ca exista un risc de fiecare data cand deschideti fisiere atasate si ca MobiFon nu este responsabila pentru nici un prejudiciu cauzat de virusi. Disclaimer: RAV AntiVirus may not be able to detect all new viruses and variants. Please be aware that there is a risk involved whenever opening e-mail attachments to your computer and that MobiFon is not responsible for any damages caused by viruses. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Economic lunacy
" ... quite a few people I know who have gold have invested it in The Gold Casino. PVCSE is based entirely on the notion that people are prepared to use gold to buy stocks. GoldBarter.com is based on the concept of exchanging gold for other things of value. Many auctions on eBay are available with e-gold or another gold currency as payment. Tens of thousands of e-gold users accept payment in gold. ... Barter trade isn't evil. Barter works very well. And, when money is scarce, all kinds of things are used as money." A good time to mention again the barter site http://www.freetraders.org , where as far as I know all hundred and some odd sellers (and growing) accept e-gold. Frank --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: When e-gold takes off in a big way
Dear Patrick, >Why stop at 10%? Crank it up to 20% >> He is not creating any value... > Other people are creating the value. Really?! Why should they create value if you don't. You tell Danny not to stop at 10% inflation, yet you want *other* people to create value. And you talk about slavery now? > and that all of the thousands of years of human economic development before that point was thwarted and stunted by their primitive, stubborn, reptilian, and unenlightened insistence on using hard commodity money > No wonder they put a man on the moon -- it's amazing what you can accomplish with slave labor if you keep the slaves fed and entertained Oh ya! No slavery before 1920! Yes Steve, I agree with what you just said, but what you don't accept to understand is that USA is the only country that can afford to inflate its currency because the USD circulates in the entire world. So, for the other countries of the world it doesn't matter if they use or not gold as currency, because they can't afford to print more money than their assets' value. Best regards, George Hara www.filematrix.xnet.ro --- Xnet scaneaza automat toate mesajele impotriva virusilor folosind RAV AntiVirus. Xnet automatically scans all messages for viruses using RAV AntiVirus. Nota: RAV AntiVirus poate sa nu detecteze toti virusii noi sau toate variantele lor. Va rugam sa luati in considerare ca exista un risc de fiecare data cand deschideti fisiere atasate si ca MobiFon nu este responsabila pentru nici un prejudiciu cauzat de virusi. Disclaimer: RAV AntiVirus may not be able to detect all new viruses and variants. Please be aware that there is a risk involved whenever opening e-mail attachments to your computer and that MobiFon is not responsible for any damages caused by viruses. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Actually-smart cards
These features could be easily implemented using existing technology -- I do not know because I do not use credit cards, but it is hard to imagine that there are not at least some providers out there who do not offer a form of 'block' service for certain types of transactions. Smart cards are a sucker bet. As often happens with technology, better options have already been developed, before smart cards ever truly caught on. Frank --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Has any had dealings?
Joel Otinwa has a lot going for him. He is an undeniable expert in options trading. I followed his August recommendations, cashed them out in September and netted approximately 650% on my money. While atypical, I have not seen a net negative month of Joel's system since I first started tracking it last summer. The person who introduced me to Joel had realised a net return of 2,100% at the time he introduced me to the system, which was according to him four months after his first investment. Not that it makes a difference with regards to market expertise, but Joel is also one of the nicest people I've met in a long time. And now for the bad news: the absolute worst customer service industry in the known universe. Other issues, mostly all related to support and not the "delta neutral" system of trading which Joel teaches. One could do much, much worse than follow the system Joel offers. Frank --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Economic lunacy
--- Jim Davidson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > We actually have an example of such an economy. > Consider the Byzantine empire, from 450 to 1453 AD. > The entire economy was based on the gold solidus > coin. As a result, Byzantium traded with every > country in the known world, and their coins were > accepted for payment from China to England. > This actually leads to something I wanted to write in response to the same note. First of all, it may be that there would be some "slowing" of the economy due to the fact that people would not be prompted to spend money just to get rid of something that was dropping in value. But is that really a bad thing? I mean, do we really want the economy growing just because people want to get rid of money? I think that from an ecological perspective, it could be argued that it would be *better* to have people push back their spending. Though the real issue is, would a gold economy be realistic? I think a question to ask is, why have gold-based currencies done well where other forms of online currencies have not? I think a large part of this reason is because of the trust that comes from gold being intrinsically worthwhile. If I set up a non-national currency without the backing of a state, who would have confidence in that currency? I guess if the UN issued a currency that would be one thing, but it's not likely to happen in the near future. But gold is something that's recognized by basically all of humanity as worthwhile, so there is an inherent trust in its worth. I think this is probably why gold currencies have been successful. Jens Wilkinson --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
