[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold for stocks
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > it is true that things like stocks, bank accounts, "1mdc-like" things > (derivatives of money), and any and all financial instruments EXPAND > THE MONEY SUPPLY. Very few people know this, but it's true. Stocks do not expand the money supply because a share of stock is not money and does not circulate as money. It is very rare to trade a stock directly for goods and services. A stock must be sold for money, and then that money used to get goods and services. Buying a stock or selling a stock does not increase the amount of money in the economy, but only changes who holds that money. > For instance, lets say we lived in a universe of Fiat money (we do in > many ways!), issued by say the New Zealand government. So just > forget about gold and the like for now. NOW ... the NZ gov issues > say $10billion. It is true, as Robert says, that bizarrely all > things like building houses, making companies, and creating financial > instruments expands the money suipply of $10billion. (For instance, > say someone suddenly builds $1b worth of houses - those houses are > now things that can factually be used "like money", like the NZDollar > - so you have expanded the money supply.) Houses are not "like money" at all. Money is a widely accepted commodity used to give value to things and store value. No one "spends" a house for other goods and services. One may get a loan based on the value of the house, or someone may act differently if they perceive their house is worth a certain amount, but this does not change the money supply. You do not use your house as money. What you have to do is sell your house to get money. Let's say there is a total of $100b in the NZ money supply. Let's say I have $5m and I give it to you in exchange for you building a house for me. Now how big is the money supply? $100b. Only now the ownership of $5m of that money has switched from me to you. You could give me back the $5m in exchange for me building you a boat. We could go back and forth 1000 times building 1000 houses and 1000 boats, but the money supply in the country would still be only $100b. Money changes hands every day and millions of things are built, grown and manufactured, but the size of the money supply, the amount of dollars in the economy, does not change because of it. Similarly, the amount of gold coming out of the ground does not add to the money supply if people do not spend gold as money. They buy gold with fiat money, hold it as they would any commodity, and sell it back for money if they want to use that value. If any commodity, like rice, was widely circulated as money, as directly exchangeable for all manners of other goods, then a tripling of the rice harvest would expand the money supply. But if rice is not used as money, a tripling of the rice harvest will only reduce it's value in terms of whatever IS circulating as money (like $/lb of rice). The value of the rice will change rather than changing the supply of money. When gold was widely used as "the" money, more gold out of the ground = larger money supply. Now that gold is not used as the money, more gold out of the ground does not change the money supply, it changes the PRICE of gold (price in terms of whatever IS acting as money, in this case $/oz or other fiat/oz). Gold having a "price" is relatively new. In the past gold was money, and gold having a price made as much sense as today asking what is the price of a dollar. Money is funny stuff. It's really just a fancy novelty token to facilitate the trading of labor. Money is a labor representation that makes it happen and makes sure whatever is produced is what the people want by creating a concept of a "price". Manipulating the number of tokens in an economy is worthless and stupid, and does nothing to help the "economy". The economy is really just people waking up and putting in effort to make products and services. Wealth, which is what is really desired, means how much do we have of stuff we want. The more stuff that exists that is what people want, the wealthier a world is. Changing the number of tokens does not produce more stuff nor does it cause people to do more work or create more stuff. Money is a measurement component for an economic system, and screwing with the reference measurement for a system is only going to screw up that system. - John --- http://cambist.net --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] GoldAge $1,600 funding order. Where have you dissapeared after I sent you the money, Ragnar?
I think I will need everyone's help here. 6 days ago I made a funding order with GoldAge, then made cash deposit to their bank account at Bank of America. I thought the fees were good, but never expected they will act worse than the worst scumbags. Before sending the money to GoldAge account, Ragnar (President of GoldAge I guess) was very nice to me, replying to all my questions. Once I sent him the confirmation that I deposited the money, he did not reply to any e-mail anymore, and when I call the number listed in Contact us section on www.goldage.net website (which is a mobile phone, by the way), he keeps rejecting my phone calls. This is worse than I could ever imagine a company can act. I heard only good things about them in the last 2 weeks since I have e-gold account, but now I read the e-gold mailing list archives and I see there are at least 6 other persons that GoldAge ripped off. Also they have 3 unanswered complaints with Better Business Bureau. I do not know what to do anymore, I will talk to my attorney. I want to track down Ragnar and GoldAge and sue them, they think they can get away with straight-down thievery? What are your opinions... please don't tell me Told You So, you should have read the e-gold-list archives and staied away from those thiefs... Thank you Warm regards Patrik Veerber --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold for stocks
Robert, I understand what you are saying about the "chaotic" effect that a thriving gold economy would have on the e-gold supply and perhaps on the efficiency of the current business model that most exchangers use. However, is it so unthinkable that that business model will simply be adapted to market conditions by those exchangers who wish to keep their light bills paid, or at the very least a *GASP* temporary increase in the fee to exchange e-gold which is reflective of the supply:demand ratio (i.e., demand for e-gold soars -- rate goes up ... demand for e-gold plummets -- rate goes down.) This particular sort of chaos, which you seem to dread, will make a great many people wealthy. "Once people start using shares as a means to trade other stuff, we have a fiat economy alongside the e-gold system." It seems that you are describing barter, a system of trade which predates any standardised government- or privately-issued currency by centuries, if not millenia. It still goes on today at places like http://www.freetraders.org . I quite regularly accept combinations of e-gold and other digital currencies, FT.org's in-house barter credit, miscellaneous goods and/or services which I find of particular use or potential resale value, etc. there in exchange for bullion products, gems, and numismatic coins, and the occasional automobile. As far as I know I have yet to wreak any havoc on the e-gold system doing so, but of course I am small potatoes. Frank --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold for stocks
I wonder why people don't do this more often with, say, Microsoft shares. Patrick, people DO DO exactly that with MSFT shares! measured in the billions of dollars, as a completely common and every day matter, just how financial systems normally work every minute -- it's one of those weird things, like you know those visual puzzles that appear to be a man's concave nose but if you look at it for a second, its obviously his convex nose, duh! At first it seems weird that things like companies, houses, shares, employees expand a monetary system, but it's totally obvious when you look again, you knew it all along. You own a house right, say you have $1m in equity. You use that equity all the time, literally like money, whether for buying money from someone else or for getting a loan (it's ... like money (ding!) sitting there, so naturally any bank will give you money based on it) Note that these things are scarily flexible; if (ion the example) a housing market crashes or it appears the government is about to nationalize everything - guess what happens? That's right, all that money (or money-like stuff, which performs precisely all the functions of money) disapears. Economies naturally expand a given amount of money into much, much more money - money multipliers! Deposit banks of course are one clear example of something that does this. The practical upshoot is when you say "how many say USD are there?" there is, simply, no clear answer. I only recently found out that is what "M1, M2, M3 .. " mean. They are just successively broader measures of money. M1 is "just USD bills" interesting, but largely meaningless, as almost all "money" in the US of course is as checking accounts, visa cards, instant transfers etc. M2 i believe is like bills +_ checking accounts (still an almost useless measure). M3 includes literally the value of MSFT shares and all other shares, I think, and other "solid" credit items. And so on. (There simply IS NO clear factual answer to "how many USD are there" as there's various ways to measure it.) I will now return to expanding the world's supply of goods. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold for stocks
Once people start using shares as a means to trade other stuff, we have a fiat economy alongside the e-gold system. Robert there is just one mistake you are making dude ... it is true that things like stocks, bank accounts, "1mdc-like" things (derivatives of money), and any and all financial instruments EXPAND THE MONEY SUPPLY. Very few people know this, but it's true. However, Roebert, this has utterly nothing to do with "fiat money". You are just using the wrong term. Fiat money (as opposed to .. "gold") is just money issued by fiat, ie, by the government. This is utterly unrelated one way or the other to the fascinating expansion-of-money issue. For instance, lets say we lived in a universe of Fiat money (we do in many ways!), issued by say the New Zealand government. So just forget about gold and the like for now. NOW ... the NZ gov issues say $10billion. It is true, as Robert says, that bizarrely all things like building houses, making companies, and creating financial instruments expands the money suipply of $10billion. (For instance, say someone suddenly builds $1b worth of houses - those houses are now things that can factually be used "like money", like the NZDollar - so you have expanded the money supply.) Then you have someone who starts doing fractional reserve banking in NZD - again the money supply is expanded, etc etc. Now in the example in the previous paragraph, takle some *different* type of money. Let's say, "stone coins". All of the exact same applies, just cut and paste the paragraph and replace "NZD" with "stone coins". And then again, use "gold" as the money and again cut and paste the paragraph, all of the same applies. So Robert, your use of the term "fiat" is incorrect, it has utterly nothing at all to do with what you are talking about. But YES for sure, things like 1mdcGrams, every company that exists that works with e-gold (TGC would be included in this, same as all the rest), each market maker's existence, people who write private notes and so on in e-gold, PVCSE, DBourse, etc - Robert's right that they do expand the money supply, they multiply it This is not necessarily a bad thing, it is organic multiplication of a money supply. Say the money in the uniuverse is "one ounce gold coins" - and say i start using millions of FAKE counterfeit one ounce gold coins! That is expansion of the money supply in a bad way! Similartly, given a fiat currency (let's say, USD) if the government in question just starts printing the money, that is expansion of the moneys upply in a bad way (phew, what a silly example, thank God that will never happen with the USD!), that would be a not very good expansion of that money supply. So those of you who are thinking Robert is mad, no, he's perfectly correct Instruments like in the example TGC shares definitely DO expand the money supply, bizarrely, in practice of in this example "digital gold currencies".This is sort of obviously how the world economy works although it takes some thinking about. (Bu the language to desribe this Robert has utterly nothing to do with "fiat" currencies, you are wrong there my crazy pal.) --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: Goldpay for sale!
You mean http://www.goldpay.org LOL need to check the spelling whe u post...:) I thought a .org was for non profit companies? --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Goldpay for sale!
Hi, I am selling my site, www.oldpay.org, on ebay if anyone is interested. It is an ecurrency backed by e-gold. The eBay item # is 2568841176 and the url is http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2568841176 Please send e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you have any questions. Regards, Matt --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold for stocks
On Tuesday, October 28, 2003, at 06:10 PM, Robert B.Z. wrote: I actually think you got exactly where I was going with this, picked it up and took it to it's logic conclusion. And it took you only a few lines, too. Once people start using shares as a means to trade other stuff, we have a fiat economy alongside the e-gold system. I wonder why people don't do this more often with, say, Microsoft shares. Of course, we know that companies quite often buy other entire companies for stock only and no cash, so I guess in a way it happens fairly often. I don't think many people pay for labor or web hosting in Microsoft shares, though. Maybe this will happen with TGC shares more often simply because people in the gold economy are pretty radical, innovative, early adopters to begin with, just by their very nature. It's a bit as if someone issued dollar bills that are redeemable for gold by the highest bidder where the issuer pays you a tiny amount of gold for not redeeming the bill and promises not to issue more bills than value of their undisclosed assets. From that perspective it already sounds like a fiat currency (minus the promise bit), innit? Sounds kind of like a stock, too. As I told George once, I don't consider the issuance of stock to be a good example of how money should work. However, I also said that none of these funky shenanigans bothers me in the least if it's voluntary. So bring on the funky shenanigans. At the very least I can get a good laugh and decline to participate. You bring up some fun things to consider, Robert! -- Patrick --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold for stocks
Patrick, I actually think you got exactly where I was going with this, picked it up and took it to it's logic conclusion. And it took you only a few lines, too. Once people start using shares as a means to trade other stuff, we have a fiat economy alongside the e-gold system. It's a bit as if someone issued dollar bills that are redeemable for gold by the highest bidder where the issuer pays you a tiny amount of gold for not redeeming the bill and promises not to issue more bills than value of their undisclosed assets. From that perspective it already sounds like a fiat currency (minus the promise bit), innit? Cheers, Robert. budget & privacy website hosting http://www.cyberica.net start a profitable online business http://www.cyberfrontier.biz budget domain registrations http://www.u2planet.com --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold for stocks
On Tuesday, October 28, 2003, at 05:20 PM, Robert B.Z. wrote: Well Jim, you see, we have borrowed against our shares to buy more shares to borrow against and we then traded some gold puts and ended up with almost twice the fiat we had started with and get to keep a cut of the dividends as well. We then bought e-gold from our own subsidiary at no surcharge, stored at 1MDC and threw a party from the profits. Just imagine what we could do if there were 20 companies listed and a bit more of activity. See, now that's what I call a real player right there -- Robert can make real money running schemes that I can barely fathom! :-) We need 20 companies listed so that NOTHING can hold Robert back from his total economic conquest! ... I suppose time will tell, but I can almost see people exchanging shares instead of e-gold because at times it's so darn difficult to get e-gold. Robert is so wild and ahead of the curve that I might be inclined to believe this. And I am basing this on experience as well. We were actually offered 2 TGC share as payment for something... There ya go. Actually, on second thought I have heard of another case of this happening, so maybe it's not going to be as rare as I thought. I still can't imagine the shares being as liquid as e-gold, but if you can't GET e-gold in the first place, well There is just not enough money to go around Obviously somebody needs to step up and issue some private fiat tokens. If you give me 20% of the initial issue I promise to kick back 50% of anything I get for them. Yeah baby, FIAT is where the action is!!! Anybody got any Boggs bills for sale? I'll pay you private fiat tokens for them. -- Patrick --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: e-gold for stocks
Well Jim, you see, we have borrowed against our shares to buy more shares to borrow against and we then traded some gold puts and ended up with almost twice the fiat we had started with and get to keep a cut of the dividends as well. We then bought e-gold from our own subsidiary at no surcharge, stored at 1MDC and threw a party from the profits. Just imagine what we could do if there were 20 companies listed and a bit more of activity. Now, as both Frank and you stated, OmniPay would have no problem to buy and later sell gold for $2,000,000.00 in my scenario. What both of you seemed to ignore is that this world of ours is far from perfect. Hence the 2,000,000 needed volume is likely to be spread over 200 exchangers who are bying from 20 exchangers who are trading with each other and in the end with OmniPay. In the meantime exchangers will increase fees fro in-exchange and drop fees for outexchange to make a quick buck, as they should. Next people who habitualy spend $100 a month at TGC and pay us $7.50 for a hosting account are struggling to get their hands on e-gold this month. Of course, as you suggested, some people have e-gold in stock to buy shares, but I could hold the internal trade stats of CF$x accounts at the time of the TGC casino against your argument. Basically there was quite a spike. And TGC didn't even sell out for months and JPM cornered 10% of the market. Based on that scenario, if there was 20 types of shares, and some were being bid up just before dividend time, ther *would* be a run on e-gold. And then there is the variable called spot rate. Imagine between OmniPay securing 2,000,000 worth and making the spends to the exchangers the market drops $8 per ounze. Of course, in gold terms that doesn't make a difference, but when the shares are sold and the sellers want to outexchange... All the while exchangers recall your posts and don't increase the fees on outexchanges because 'just yesterday everyone wanted to buy', and then the market drops some more... We are talking unprecendented volumes here. Sure there is a lot of e-gold in circulation and holding more or less steady. But if there was a healthy share market with lots of volume spikes during IPOs the amounts involved are not easily absorbed by a market (as in goods and services commonly traded everyday) that has reached equilibrium. And the there is the option that IPO revenue goes straight to the former owners who have little personal use for e-gold in the real world and are likely to outexchange large chunks as soon as they receive them... So, no it is not all well when suddenly there is more gold being used for share trades than for the 'normal' day to day dealings. And yes, it will influence the smoothness of transactions. I suppose time will tell, but I can almost see people exchanging shares instead of e-gold because at times it's so darn difficult to get e-gold. And I am basing this on experience as well. We were actually offered 2 TGC share as payment for something... In the end, I am throwing these things up for people to ponder not to defend them as gospel. Cheers, Robert. budget & privacy website hosting http://www.cyberica.net start a profitable online business http://www.cyberfrontier.biz budget domain registrations http://www.u2planet.com --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] RE: gold on paper
Dear Arik, Shalom. I would say the shares should represent an ownership interest in the income potential of the underlying company. Not exactly. I would say that a share represents an ownership interest in the company assets, earnings and management. Although there are different "powers" to shares (or different kinds of shares), usually shares represent more than the interest in revenue. Revenue is not income. Revenue is sales. It is only net income after cost of goods sold, expenses, interest, and taxes. Assets are interesting, but the main thing shareholders wish to see is assets performing. No earnings is very bad for stock prices, which means that shareholders are very interested in assets which perform to produce earnings. It is often the case that a company which has poor earnings is bought by arbitrageurs and broken up into its component assets which are sold to other companies which believe they can make those assets perform. Regards, Jim http://www.ezez.com/ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] e-gold for stocks
Dear Robert, First there is a run on e-gold, 2,000,000.00 dollars' worth. There are some other misapprehensions about this situation which I think need elucidating. You seem to insist that the people who wish to buy stocks with e-gold are all people who have no e-gold on hand. I think that's a mistake. Once the shares are bought and the sellers cash out there is a 2,000,000 dollar worth of e-gold surplus. Here you assume that the sellers who receive e-gold for stock don't have any ability to spend e-gold for things like programming. Yet, the Gold Casino has done so. It also spends e-gold paying off bets, spends e-gold for domain registrations, spends e-gold for accounting - it can spend e-gold on nearly everything it does. Even if the sellers of stock turn their e-gold back into cash, they have, at the end of the day, released e-gold back to exchangers who are then able to sell it. So, I don't see why a run on e-gold is expected. Moreover, I don't see how any of this information amounts to an inflationary tendency from stock exchanges offering to accept gold in exchange for shares. Regards, Jim http://www.ezez.com/ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] e-gold --> WU
Hello, I remember that I found a service offered by Western Union to sell your e-gold directly to them, but I can't find that page anymore... anyone has a clue about this? __ Do you Yahoo!? Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] difference in some shares
Dear Robert, I do think the fact that shares are priced in grams of gold on dBourse and on PVCSE makes a difference. It is a non-trivial feature of both private stock exchanges. Remember that it took an emergency declaration of Congress in March 1933 to give Franklin Roosevelt the power to declare all gold-denominated contracts in the USA invalid. Since he did that in the same fell swoop with which he abolished private ownership of gold for Americans and inflated the "dollar" from about a twentieth of an ounce to about a thirty-fifth of an ounce (seventy-five percent inflation in one go!) he needed some extraordinary power. Of course, the central bankers, aka the Federal Reserve, had set things in motion so that a deep dark depression was well in hand by March 1933. Anyone who has read about the monetary history of the USA, from, say, Milton Friedman, understands that the depression was due chiefly to governmental action (the Smoot Hawley tariff) and Fed monetary policy. warn about *possible* inflationary tendencies of e-gold derivatives, for lack of a better word. I'm baffled how trading shares of stock in grams of gold, using e-gold or Pecunix as a currency has any sort of an inflationary tendency. People use money for all kinds of things. What causes inflation, Robert? Inflation is caused by increasing the supply of money. The whole point of using gold as money is to avoid any rapid increase in the supply. The supply of gold seems to increase about 2% per annum, and has done so on average at about that rate for thousands of years. If you talk to monetary policy "experts" such as they are, they will tell you that the focus of monetary policy for fiat currencies should be to create slow, stable inflation. They like the number to be about 2% per year. In other words, they like inflation to approximate what would happen if there were no government fiat money and we all used gold as money. Did you know that from 1 January 1988 to 31 December 2002 there was 52% inflation? Half the value of money and more wiped out in a decade and a half. Wow. Which is what comes from relying on the goofballs at the Fed for monetary policy. In private conversations with several clients of ours I realized that they believed that TGC shares were good as gold, NOT because of good and sound business practices and NOT because of dividend payments in gold, BUT because they paid gold for them and because they are traded in gold. The allure of gold. I would be surprised if the Gold Casino were not aware of this allure in choosing its name. There is, however, something to it. Dollars could start hyperinflating next week. I think it was Danny van den Berghe who wrote that dollars are the stock of the USA, in some sense. Well, that stock is way down as expressed in other currenices. And, what does that mean, the stock of the USA? In some sense, it means that the dollars are a promissory note against the taxpayers of the USA. Take a number. Gold is a better way to write the contracts for dBourse and for PVCSE because if the currency involved in the exchange is gold grams, there is no pretext for USA governmental regulation, because if the currency is gold then the contract is not dependent on currency fluctuations. Your customers may be in Malaysia, I suppose? In which case they have some money in gold and some money in dollars and some money in local currency. The ringgit, right? Well, if they are buying a stock which is denominated in dollars, they are faced with the fluctuations in the dollar price of the stock and they are also faced with the fluctuations in the ringgit price of dollars, right? Whereas with gold pricing, they face the same two effects, but with an overall, current trend upward in the price of gold against most currencies, and an equally obvious trend downward in the value of the dollar. Tell me which you'd rather hold. Dollars or gold? You have to place $10K of value into one or the other for a year. Do you buy dollar-denominated stocks at this stage in the bear market rally? Do you buy gold-denominated stocks? Do you hold cash in dollars? Do you hold grams of gold? Even some of those who are seemingly aware that outexchanges are not possible appear to have some weird concept about the mere fact of trading a share in gold gives the share an inherent value beyond mere bid and ask. I think it gives some interesting features, if one is converting dollars to gold, buying gold grams in July 2003, buying a share of The Gold Casino, and then getting dividends in grams of gold every month. During that same period, the price per gram of gold has increased dramatically, reaching a recent high of about $392.50. As Danny pointed out, we could decide to trade Microsoft shares in gold and it would be no different. You could decide to buy some Microsoft shares, and pay someone some e-gold, who would pay dollars to a broker, who would send those shares somewhere. Maybe you'd end up with them. But, it would al
[e-gold-list] Re: What is TGC Share?
Dear Robert, Up to and just prior to the South Sea Bubble :o) I remember those times. That Newton, what a hoot. Be sure to read _Quicksilver_! What you are talking about is "par value." Jim, are you saying that (as Rob mentioned and I quote "pre south sea bubble") that the "par value" of stocks was something you could sort of insist the company pays you for the stock at any time? (Indeed -- are you saying that CURRENTLY the par value of a stock, you can take the stock to the company and get the par value for it?) I thought it was just one of those occasions when Rob was totally mad :) There's never been any historical instance where stocks can be "redeemed", it makes no sense. (How can you "redeem" something you simply own part of? It's meaningless. And anyway, putting aside that it's meaningless, it's never happened. Not in Holland anyway in the "early days") JP --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: What is TGC Share?
Dear Robert, Up to and just prior to the South Sea Bubble :o) I remember those times. That Newton, what a hoot. What you are talking about is "par value." Many stocks are now issued with zero par value and some with a trivial par value. The free market does seem to be willing to institute clever variations on a theme. If the market will bear it, I don't see the harm in it. If issuing high par value stocks is such a great idea, where are all the stocks with high par values? Why doesn't the public demand more of them? Are preferred stocks any better at having higher par values? It may be that the buyers don't seek higher par values because they don't want everyone else in the investor community to rob the company treasury at the first hint of trouble by rushing to redeem. It is an interesting issue, though. So, back to the good old days, huh? Before electricity, before Newton put the pound sterling on the gold standard, before relativity and quantum mechanics, before computers. It does "take me back." Regards, Jim http://www.ezez.com/ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Goldie Exchange Service
Hello, I wish to introduce myself. My name is Richard Navrocki and I'm the CEO of Goldie-Exchange.com. We're operating from Poland in Europe. Our primary goal is to exchange E-currency's at fair prices however we'll sell and buy E-gold as soon as our website will be done. You can use our temporary site located at : www.goldie-exchange.com But - please, always contact me directly at : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kind Regards to all Gold Users Richard Navrocki CEO Goldie-Exchange.com --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: What is TGC Share?
On Monday, October 27, 2003, at 02:10 PM, Robert B.Z. wrote: 1,000 shares are sold, goldslots.dom outexchanges the 1,000 ounzes to pay some new software it bought. People now hold 1,000oz worth of shares, there are 1,000oz in circulation, do you see where I'm heading here? In theory the number of ounzes in circulation has just doubled. People hold their shares believing that they are 'good as gold', but in order to trade all shares one would need to control all 1,000oz in circulation. The 1000 shares won't be NEARLY as liquid in circulation as you suggest here, Robert. Sure, I suppose people could buy 1000 shares for 1000 oz of gold, and then both the gold AND the shares would circulate equally as money -- but I don't think it can or will happen. The shares will not be nearly as liquid as gold itself as a medium of exchange. Shares will always carry investment risk and thus cannot be as liquid as gold itself. So you won't see an inflationary effect. Besides, even if I could spend a TGC share directly, buying for example some electronics equipment with it, I don't see that as a "problem" in any sense -- the guy selling the equipment just happened to want a TGC share more than he wanted to keep the equipment. If that's "inflationary," then so be it. Sure, maybe the next guy wanting to buy some equipment wants to pay in straight gold but finds that prices have gone up. That's just tough. And who in the world is holding a TGC share thinking that it is as "good as gold?" There is no sense in which a TGC share"represents" 100 grams of gold. Each share simply has a prevailing market price in terms of gold, the same way a pound of peaches has a market price in terms of dollars. Anyone who thinks a TGC share is redeemable for gold, or "good as gold," is laboring under a mistaken assumption and needs to unload all of their shares at 50g a piece immediately! :-) And that is where one of the problems are when an exchange allows only one currency to be used for trade. The inherent problem would be removed, if people could swap 'bearer' shares for anything they want, of course. But hey, that means we just created an infaltionary fiat currency that started out as having a gold base and suddenly there is more paper than gold... But of course we know there is NO "gold base" to TGC shares. The shares merely have a going price that is stated in gold. And very few people are going to accept TGC shares directly in trade for goods and services. No investment instrument is going to be as liquid as money itself. -- Patrick --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: gold on paper
"The second item of concern for me was that because some people equate TGC shares with e-gold there is an inherent potential of perceived inflationary tendencies." But they do so mistakenly; even in the context of private exchanges I am not sure how such inflation is possible (see below.) "Imagine there were 20 ventures listed with a combined market cap of USD 2,000,000.00 imagine further that people are keen on getting their hands on these shares. First there is a run on e-gold, 2,000,000.00 dollars' worth. Once the shares are bought and the sellers cash out there is a 2,000,000 dollar worth of e-gold surplus. Great times for exchangers. But, during the run and the subsequent oversupply e-gold Ltd would need to ensure enough flow of first e-gold and later cash." I see little problem here and positively massive profit potential for both OmniPay and whatever lucky market maker gets this hypothetical order ... because e-gold is a fully-backed, fully redeemable digital gold currency there can be no inflation in the sense of mysterious increases in e-gold circulation not directly correlated to an increase in the pysical gold stored in e-gold's assorted contracted storage facilities (audit pending.) I could offer a sale of one TGC share for 1,579,000 grams of e-gold, but because this represents a greater sum of gold than all e-gold currently in existence (1,578,274.17 according to http://e-gold.com/examiner.html [audit pending]) I would not likely find a buyer (not to mention the TGC shareholders who would no doubt gladly accept a scant 1,250,000 grams or other such relatively competitive prices for their own shares.) "Of course, there is OmniPay to ensure that flow. But, how long would they need to add $2,000,000 worth of gold to the storage and later to sell the same amount?" It is certainly possible that OmniPay would not simply sit on that $ 2,000,000.00 in case someone needed it; I consider it highly unlikely that they maintain a liquid cash reserve in excess of $ 20 million on the off-chance that all of the four e-metal currencies maintained by G&SR were suddenly out-exchanged en masse. It is not neccessary for them to do so; after all, e-gold is fully backed by and fully redeemable for physical metal, so it is no particularly difficult task for them to simply liquidate the underlying metal in order to gain adequate cash to facilitate the out-exchange. Anyone attempting a $ 2,000,000.00 e-gold out-exchange might find himself subject to the law of supply and demand (i.e., demand for the service of exchanging e-gold for cash); however the transaction would be easily-enough handled by the parties involved, if perhaps at a somewhat slower pace and more expensive rate as most of us have come to take for granted with all of the established market makers. Frank --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: R: Re: get e-gold with no fee
You are correct there, but if you can't send it you can't receive it. But in any case we have to show id after a certain amount, so keeping it reasonable is a good thing. WU wires are quite pricey also when you get up into that range. Gordon www.katzglobal.com > The key word there is SEND! > You cannot SEND more than that, but it does not seem to say anywhere > that you cannot RECEIVE more than that. As a matter of fact, the send TO > menu, has United States as the only option, and not State by State so > this seems to imply that there is NO difference as far as RECEIVING > funds, no matter which State you are in --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] R: Re: get e-gold with no fee
The key word there is SEND! You cannot SEND more than that, but it does not seem to say anywhere that you cannot RECEIVE more than that. As a matter of fact, the send TO menu, has United States as the only option, and not State by State so this seems to imply that there is NO difference as far as RECEIVING funds, no matter which State you are in Regards Marco www.paybygold.com > https://wumt.westernunion.com/asp/feeCalc.asp?DESTINATION_COUN TRY=UNITED%20STATES&AMOUNT=950&STATE=AZ and type in $1000 you will see what I am talking about. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: get e-gold with no fee
> yes sure... if you go to this page: > https://wumt.westernunion.com/asp/feeCalc.asp?DESTINATION_COUNTRY=UNITED%20S TATES&AMOUNT=950&STATE=AZ > > and type in $1000 you will see what I am talking about. I think this only applies to transfers paid for with a credit or debit card, though I may be wrong. And I did not know you were talking about Western Union to begin with - I thought you were talking about wire transfers. Thanks anyway Nick --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: get e-gold with no fee
Hi, > > The maximum initial wire to our state is $950 per 30 days so if you need > > more than that you will need to make other arrangements with us. > > What does this mean? I have never heard of "maximum initial wires". Could yes sure... if you go to this page: https://wumt.westernunion.com/asp/feeCalc.asp?DESTINATION_COUNTRY=UNITED%20STATES&AMOUNT=950&STATE=AZ and type in $1000 you will see what I am talking about. This is some sort of arizona resident restriction. I guess they think we cannot handle too much money at one time. I do not know about other states, but you could play around with this and see. Gordon www.katzglobal.com You have entered an amount that exceeds the maximum transaction limit of $950 for Arizona residents The maximum initial send amount for a money transfer is under $1,000 or $2,000 per 30 days depending on your transaction history with westernunion.com Amount to send : $ 1000 US Dollars Money transfer charge : $ Total estimated amount : $ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: get e-gold with no fee
Gordon, You wrote: > The maximum initial wire to our state is $950 per 30 days so if you need > more than that you will need to make other arrangements with us. What does this mean? I have never heard of "maximum initial wires". Could you enlighten us? Thanks Nick Fidex http://e-fidex.com --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] get e-gold with no fee
Hi, we have an excess of e-gold that we need to out exchange to cash in USD. If you would like e-gold with no fee attached (0%) we are accepting orders via cash by mail or western union wire. We guarantee funding within 24 hours or less upon receipt of funds. The maximum initial wire to our state is $950 per 30 days so if you need more than that you will need to make other arrangements with us. Email us offlist at [EMAIL PROTECTED] with your order request and we will send you instructions. thank you Gordon H. www.katzglobal.com Anonymous Hosting(tm) Solutions --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: What is TGC Share?
> Danny, > Did you know that when stocks of share were first introduced, they were > redeemable at base/face value? Similar to a partnership where one party > wants out, shares could be returned to the company and sold at the base > value which was determined through the actual sale value of the company's > assets divided by the number of shares outstanding. Coicidentially that is > why we use the term of shares outstanding ;o) I didn't know, but I can see the possibility. It probably disappeared for several reasons. Usually a company uses the proceeds of an ipo to invest in buildings , machinery, etc.. If you can redeem the shares that can become very inconvenient as they may need to sell assets inorder to pay back the shares you want to redeem. Very impractical. Secondly, a company that is doing reasonably well will almost always trade above its book value. That is because a company becomes worth more than the sum of its parts, it gains reputation capital, brand name recognition, etc... and all these value is not reflected in the book value of their buildings and machines. When a stock trades above its book value one would be a fool to redeem the shares, you will get more money by just selling them on the stock market. When a stock trades below book value (which does happen) then it is possible for the stockholders to vote on liquidation of the company. If the vote passes, the assets are sold and the book value is realised (hopefully) and distributed equally to the shareholders. So, in fact stocks are still redeemable under the condition that a majority of the shareholders has to agree with the liquidation of the assets. This does happen sometimes. Unfortunately with TGC shares the voting rights are very unclear, so I doubt this possibility is open with TGC shares. > Let's assume for the moment that there is 1,000 ounzes of gold in storage > at gold-currency.dom and that an online casino goldslots.dom beginns to > issue shares that are sold for gold-currency.dom units at 1 ounze per > share. > 1,000 shares are sold, goldslots.dom outexchanges the 1,000 ounzes to pay > some new software it bought. People now hold 1,000oz worth of shares, > there are 1,000oz in circulation, do you see where I'm heading here? > In theory the number of ounzes in circulation has just doubled. Oh , but the economy continues in this little country and before you know they have built 5000oz worth of houses, are driving around in 3000oz worth of cars, etc... all based on the same 1000oz of gold going round in the system. You cannot avoid that. And soon this country will invent paper (promis) money because the 1000oz are not sufficient to support all the trade in this place, unless everybody would lower his prices (in gold terms). People don't like to lower their prices. A baker who always sold his bread for 0.01oz is not likely to decide to lower the price to 0.005 oz because the economy has grown. Somebody who bought an house for 500oz will not like it if the price of a house drops to 250oz > And that is where one of the problems are when an exchange allows only one > currency to be used for trade. The inherent problem would be removed, if > people could swap 'bearer' shares for anything they want, of course. But > hey, that means we just created an infaltionary fiat currency that started > out as having a gold base and suddenly there is more paper than gold... That's exactly what happens when the amount of gold becomes insufficient. Other asset classes become monetized and start circulating alongside the gold. People borrow against their home and that becomes new paper money, which is in fact backed by the home. Danny --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: TGC IPO Now Clear!
> ... > > They may have changed their mind seeing that the ipo could fail if unsold > > shares keep depressing the price for too long. > > I still fail to see how they were failing if shares sold slower than > they've actually sold, or why they'd bother to try to manipulate > share prices. Sorry, but I cannot explain it any better. > ... > > > > Prices are stable because there is hardly any trading besides the ipo sales. > > But the bid/ask spread is very wide (85 / 102), and that is not so great. > > It means when you want to sell you have to take a rather big loss.. > > > > Or wait a bit. This is not a problem, IMO, just a sign of a > thinly traded market. A very illiquid market, indeed. It is not a problem if you are not intending to ever sell you shares. > > ... > > > > As for the price stability, that is of course the advantage of the way they > > did the ipo. > > But the disadvantage of this system is that if the issue receives little > > demand it can take years before all the ipo shares are gone, and that means > > the price cannot go up. > > Many buyers expressed more interest in a gram-denominated > dividend than they did in any particular share price, though. I > think the dividend fans are still quite satisfied. Usually people who buy stocks are also interested to see the price of their stock go up. If the company grows then naturally the value of your piece in the cake increases and that reflects in a higher price for the stock. Those who are interested mostly in the dividend, normally prefer bonds over stocks because bonds give a higher return (bonds giving you 6% or more are not hard to find) and guarantee you to pay back the principal when the bond expires. The company may have trouble to pay back and default on the bonds, but then you are likely to be in trouble if you own their shares too. > > With the "normal" ipo, there is a limited time period when you can sign up > > for the shares, and as soon as that period ends the stock can start trading > > freely up and down. The disadvantage is high volatility during the first > > days of trading. > > Mostly due to distortions caused by favored insiders, yes. This > has certainly been a refreshing IPO from that point of view. Even without favored insiders you are bound to have price swings when the stock starts trading normally. This is because when the ipo signup period ends it is revealed how many people bid for shares and what prices. If an issue is 5 times overbid, then investors conclude that there is strong demand for the shares and hence the price rises when it starts trading normally. If the same stock issue is not completely taken up, then investors conclude weak demand and they try to get rid of these shares as soon as the market opens. That causes the price swings on the first trading days. Of course not so honest favored insiders can play some games on it, and they do. But with the dbourse style ipo the insiders can play other games. No matter how you organise an ipo, there is always possibilities for insiders to profit from the information they have before others have it. You are not going to avoid that, unless you are in favor of complete (over)regulation of the field. > > The advantage is that you know beforehand when the stock will start trading > > normally. > > > > I'm not sure you've ever admitted anything about DBourse is > normal before (well, normal if insiders didn't buy their own > shares, I guess). This is progress! :) With trading normally I mean the trading that happens when the ipo is finished. Now TGC shares are trading "normally" With the dbourse style ipo you don't have the disadvantage of big price swings at the first trading day, but a new disadvantage is that you don't know when the ipo will end (which may be never) People who buy shares to see them go up, these investors like to know when the ipo will end and the stock can start trading normally. > > In the end it means you have to choose for the lesser evil. > > Honestly , I prefer the limited time "normal" ipo at the cost of less price > > stability in the beginning. > > I'd agree, but only if I get to be a favored insider! Quattrone > just got off, stockbrokers, so it's safe to have favorites now. I > am officially available to fill the role. No, it will depend what type of investor you are. If you buy the stocks for their dividends then you will prefer the price stability that a dbourse style ipo gives. If you buy stocks to sell them at a profit then you don't want to wait for an unknown period of time before the stock can go up. As for favored insiders, I really don't have any problem with it. In nearly every business an insider can profit from his position. A second hand car dealer can pick up a nice car at a very cheap price and keep it for own use. An insider at e-gold can buy his gold at cost price rather than go to a market maker. A pub owner can drink beer at wholesale prices. If you want insider favors on the stock m
[e-gold-list] RE: gold on paper
Shalom, Jim Davidson wrote: > I would say the shares should represent > an ownership interest in the income potential of the underlying > company. Not exactly. I would say that a share represents an ownership interest in the company assets, earnings and management. Although there are different "powers" to shares (or different kinds of shares), usually shares represent more than the interest in revenue. Arik Schenkler - Chief Money Maker Internet Dollar is the money of the Internet - http://InternetDollar.com --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: gold on paper
You are certainly a strange fish Robert, you say some incredibly amazingly bizarre things, and then you say some incredibly subtly correct things, and from time to time you give up some astonishingly useful knwoledge! I've always thought this. Sometimes you come off as a complete crackpot and at other times it's obvious you're much more successful than anyone else here. I like you! :) --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
[e-gold-list] Re: OmniPay Out-Exchange Options
> To which currencies will OmniPay currently out-exhcnage e-gold? Last time > I used them (prior to the 'makeover' and its attendant hike in fees) they > only used US$ and AU$, but recently I saw a post on another forum to the > effect that OmniPay out-exchanges to EUR, CHF and JPY as well. Is this > correct, or was the poster merely confusing e-gold's convenient exchange > rate charts and the options inside the suer interface for valuing a given > spend in numerous currencies with actual out-exchange functionality? > > > Frank Looks like it Frank, Pounds and Canadian dollars as well as the ones you posted. When you go to out exchange, these options do come up. Norm --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Use e-gold's Secure Randomized Keyboard (SRK) when accessing your e-gold account(s) via the web and shopping cart interfaces to help thwart keystroke loggers and common viruses.
