[ECOLOG-L] 1/26 N.Y. Times Editorial on Wild Turtle Trade,

[asalzb...@herpdigest.org]

THE NEW YORK TIMES
EDITORIAL
Eating the Wild
Published on-line January 25, 2009
Printed in January 26, 2009 edition
In America, there are foragers among us, out searching for morels in  
the spring, and there are hunters too. Yet most of our food, except  
for fish caught from the sea, is farmed. We do not trap songbirds for  
savory pies. (We destroy too many of them through other means.)

Once you look beyond the parochial culinary habits of most Americans  
you discover that wildness, and the tastes associated with it, have a  
talismanic power that is very hard to eradicate. It is what keeps the  
Japanese whaling and keeps some Africans eating bush meat. And it is  
one of the things that helps explain the voracious and utterly  
destructive Chinese appetite for turtles.

As global wealth rises, so does global consumption of meat, which  
includes wild meat. Turtle meat used to be a rare delicacy in the  
Asian diet, but no longer. China, along with Hong Kong and Taiwan, has  
vacuumed the wild turtles out of most of Southeast Asia. Now,  
according to a recent report in The Los Angeles Times, they are  
consuming common soft-shell turtles from the American Southeast,  
especially Florida, at an alarming rate.

Some scientists estimate that two-thirds of the tortoise and  
freshwater turtle species on the planet are seriously threatened. Some  
of that is secondhand damage — loss of habitat, water pollution,  
climate change. But far too many turtles are being lost to the fork  
and the spoon.

In the United States, the solution is relatively straightforward.  
States should impose much tighter restrictions on the harvesting and  
export of wild turtles. Internationally, the problem is more  
complicated. There have been efforts to monitor the species of wild  
turtles found in Chinese markets, but as long as the appetite for  
turtles — and traditional medicines derived from them — persists, we  
fear it will be hard to curtail such a profitable and disastrous trade.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/26/opinion/26mon4.html?_r=1

Allen Salzberg 
 
HerpDigest.org: The Only Free Weekly E-Zine That Reports on 
The Latest News on Herpetological Conservation and Science 
www.HerpDigest.org
 
HerpArts.com
Gifts for Herp Lovers:  Reptile and Amphibian Jewelry, Art, Toys for Adults 
And Kids, Decorative Items for the House and So Much More
www.HerpArts.com

Re: [ECOLOG-L] 1/26 N.Y. Times Editorial on Wild Turtle Trade,

[Jorge Ramos]

Amphibians have been experiencing a similar situation. A couple of days ago
there was a news report by the BBC about a study coming out in Conservation
Biology by Corey Bradshaw and others. The numbers are alarming and the
images and their captions are interesting.

Thanks Andrea for the heads up to this link:
http://news.
bbc 
.co.
uk 
/2/hi/science/nature/7845306.
stm 

Jorge

--
Jorge Ramos
Graduate Student
College of Forest Resources
University of Washington
Box 352100
Seattle, WA 98195
http://www.ecojorgeramos.com/
jramo...@u.washington.edu


On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 6:53 AM, asalzb...@herpdigest.org <
asalzb...@herpdigest.org> wrote:

> THE NEW YORK TIMES
> EDITORIAL
> Eating the Wild
> Published on-line January 25, 2009
> Printed in January 26, 2009 edition
> In America, there are foragers among us, out searching for morels in
> the spring, and there are hunters too. Yet most of our food, except
> for fish caught from the sea, is farmed. We do not trap songbirds for
> savory pies. (We destroy too many of them through other means.)
>
> Once you look beyond the parochial culinary habits of most Americans
> you discover that wildness, and the tastes associated with it, have a
> talismanic power that is very hard to eradicate. It is what keeps the
> Japanese whaling and keeps some Africans eating bush meat. And it is
> one of the things that helps explain the voracious and utterly
> destructive Chinese appetite for turtles.
>
> As global wealth rises, so does global consumption of meat, which
> includes wild meat. Turtle meat used to be a rare delicacy in the
> Asian diet, but no longer. China, along with Hong Kong and Taiwan, has
> vacuumed the wild turtles out of most of Southeast Asia. Now,
> according to a recent report in The Los Angeles Times, they are
> consuming common soft-shell turtles from the American Southeast,
> especially Florida, at an alarming rate.
>
> Some scientists estimate that two-thirds of the tortoise and
> freshwater turtle species on the planet are seriously threatened. Some
> of that is secondhand damage — loss of habitat, water pollution,
> climate change. But far too many turtles are being lost to the fork
> and the spoon.
>
> In the United States, the solution is relatively straightforward.
> States should impose much tighter restrictions on the harvesting and
> export of wild turtles. Internationally, the problem is more
> complicated. There have been efforts to monitor the species of wild
> turtles found in Chinese markets, but as long as the appetite for
> turtles — and traditional medicines derived from them — persists, we
> fear it will be hard to curtail such a profitable and disastrous trade.
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/26/opinion/26mon4.html?_r=1
>
> Allen Salzberg
>
> HerpDigest.org: The Only Free Weekly E-Zine That Reports on
> The Latest News on Herpetological Conservation and Science
> www.HerpDigest.org
>
> HerpArts.com
> Gifts for Herp Lovers:  Reptile and Amphibian Jewelry, Art, Toys for Adults
> And Kids, Decorative Items for the House and So Much More
> www.HerpArts.com
>

Re: [ECOLOG-L] 1/26 N.Y. Times Editorial on Wild Turtle Trade,

[Michael E. Welker]

All,

Amphibians are not declining due to harvest. There is a simple fix to turtle 
over-harvest and that is bag limits. Under no circumstances do we want to 
pass banning legislation, prevent sustainable harvest, inhibit captive 
propagation or ban commercial sales. Let's not knee jerk and go Animal 
Rights on all the breeders, collectors and dealers who are preserving gene 
pools in captivity and collecting in a sustainable manner. And doing this 
out of their own pocket. Especially since we are doing virtually nothing 
about habitat destruction, the impacts of roads and human population growth.


Someone could make some good money ranching turtles but if they are banned 
that won't happen. We don't want to protect them into extinction.


It is time to get away from the banning agenda and come up with win/win 
regulations. If game and fish doesn't want to do its job then they need to 
be restructured and allocate funding differently. The time for excuses is 
done and private hobbyists and business owners are tired of banning 
regulations as the "supposed" solution. It is time to open your mind.


Mike Welker
El Paso, TX



- Original Message - 
From: "Jorge Ramos" 

To: 
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] 1/26 N.Y. Times Editorial on Wild Turtle Trade,


Amphibians have been experiencing a similar situation. A couple of days ago
there was a news report by the BBC about a study coming out in Conservation
Biology by Corey Bradshaw and others. The numbers are alarming and the
images and their captions are interesting.

Thanks Andrea for the heads up to this link:
http://news.<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7845306.stm>
bbc 
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7845306.stm>.co.<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7845306.stm>

uk <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7845306.stm>
/2/hi/science/nature/7845306.<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7845306.stm>
stm <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7845306.stm>

Jorge

--
Jorge Ramos
Graduate Student
College of Forest Resources
University of Washington
Box 352100
Seattle, WA 98195
http://www.ecojorgeramos.com/
jramo...@u.washington.edu


On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 6:53 AM, asalzb...@herpdigest.org <
asalzb...@herpdigest.org> wrote:


THE NEW YORK TIMES
EDITORIAL
Eating the Wild
Published on-line January 25, 2009
Printed in January 26, 2009 edition
In America, there are foragers among us, out searching for morels in
the spring, and there are hunters too. Yet most of our food, except
for fish caught from the sea, is farmed. We do not trap songbirds for
savory pies. (We destroy too many of them through other means.)

Once you look beyond the parochial culinary habits of most Americans
you discover that wildness, and the tastes associated with it, have a
talismanic power that is very hard to eradicate. It is what keeps the
Japanese whaling and keeps some Africans eating bush meat. And it is
one of the things that helps explain the voracious and utterly
destructive Chinese appetite for turtles.

As global wealth rises, so does global consumption of meat, which
includes wild meat. Turtle meat used to be a rare delicacy in the
Asian diet, but no longer. China, along with Hong Kong and Taiwan, has
vacuumed the wild turtles out of most of Southeast Asia. Now,
according to a recent report in The Los Angeles Times, they are
consuming common soft-shell turtles from the American Southeast,
especially Florida, at an alarming rate.

Some scientists estimate that two-thirds of the tortoise and
freshwater turtle species on the planet are seriously threatened. Some
of that is secondhand damage — loss of habitat, water pollution,
climate change. But far too many turtles are being lost to the fork
and the spoon.

In the United States, the solution is relatively straightforward.
States should impose much tighter restrictions on the harvesting and
export of wild turtles. Internationally, the problem is more
complicated. There have been efforts to monitor the species of wild
turtles found in Chinese markets, but as long as the appetite for
turtles — and traditional medicines derived from them — persists, we
fear it will be hard to curtail such a profitable and disastrous trade.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/26/opinion/26mon4.html?_r=1

Allen Salzberg

HerpDigest.org: The Only Free Weekly E-Zine That Reports on
The Latest News on Herpetological Conservation and Science
www.HerpDigest.org

HerpArts.com
Gifts for Herp Lovers:  Reptile and Amphibian Jewelry, Art, Toys for 
Adults

And Kids, Decorative Items for the House and So Much More
www.HerpArts.com

Re: [ECOLOG-L] 1/26 N.Y. Times Editorial on Wild Turtle Trade,

[Lori Neuman-Lee]

Thank you for bringing this issue to light.

The Midwest PARC (Partners in Amphibian and Reptile Conservation) recently
discussed this issue at the September meeting.  Specifically, in many states
there is no "season" for turtles, which makes nesting females an easy
target.  Midwest PARC discussed not only a bag limit, but also placing a
season on turtles to avoid the capture of reproducing animals.  In many of
these midwest states, turtles are legal to capture with a valid fishing
license.  Clearly, limiting harvest by placing the same restrictions that
are in place for many other vertebrates (deer, turkey, etc) would be a huge
step in decreasing the loss of these animals and increasing the number of
recruits into the population.

I suggest that if you are interested in this, you contact your regional PARC
as other regions may have similar initiatives.  The national link is:
http://www.parcplace.org/.  From this website, you can be directed to your
local PARC representatives.

Lori Neuman-Lee

~~~
Lori Neuman-Lee
Eastern Illinois University, M.S. 2010
Iowa State University, B.S. Biology 2007
Iowa State University, B.S. English 2008
lorin...@gmail.com

On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 10:43 PM, Michael E. Welker  wrote:

> All,
>
> Amphibians are not declining due to harvest. There is a simple fix to
> turtle over-harvest and that is bag limits. Under no circumstances do we
> want to pass banning legislation, prevent sustainable harvest, inhibit
> captive propagation or ban commercial sales. Let's not knee jerk and go
> Animal Rights on all the breeders, collectors and dealers who are preserving
> gene pools in captivity and collecting in a sustainable manner. And doing
> this out of their own pocket. Especially since we are doing virtually
> nothing about habitat destruction, the impacts of roads and human population
> growth.
>
> Someone could make some good money ranching turtles but if they are banned
> that won't happen. We don't want to protect them into extinction.
>
> It is time to get away from the banning agenda and come up with win/win
> regulations. If game and fish doesn't want to do its job then they need to
> be restructured and allocate funding differently. The time for excuses is
> done and private hobbyists and business owners are tired of banning
> regulations as the "supposed" solution. It is time to open your mind.
>
> Mike Welker
> El Paso, TX
>
>
>
> - Original Message - From: "Jorge Ramos" <
> jramo...@u.washington.edu>
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] 1/26 N.Y. Times Editorial on Wild Turtle Trade,
>
>
>
> Amphibians have been experiencing a similar situation. A couple of days ago
> there was a news report by the BBC about a study coming out in Conservation
> Biology by Corey Bradshaw and others. The numbers are alarming and the
> images and their captions are interesting.
>
> Thanks Andrea for the heads up to this link:
> http://news.<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7845306.stm>
> bbc <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7845306.stm>.co.<
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7845306.stm>
> uk <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7845306.stm>
> /2/hi/science/nature/7845306.<
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7845306.stm>
> stm <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7845306.stm>
>
> Jorge
>
> --
> Jorge Ramos
> Graduate Student
> College of Forest Resources
> University of Washington
> Box 352100
> Seattle, WA 98195
> http://www.ecojorgeramos.com/
> jramo...@u.washington.edu
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 6:53 AM, asalzb...@herpdigest.org <
> asalzb...@herpdigest.org> wrote:
>
>  THE NEW YORK TIMES
>> EDITORIAL
>> Eating the Wild
>> Published on-line January 25, 2009
>> Printed in January 26, 2009 edition
>> In America, there are foragers among us, out searching for morels in
>> the spring, and there are hunters too. Yet most of our food, except
>> for fish caught from the sea, is farmed. We do not trap songbirds for
>> savory pies. (We destroy too many of them through other means.)
>>
>> Once you look beyond the parochial culinary habits of most Americans
>> you discover that wildness, and the tastes associated with it, have a
>> talismanic power that is very hard to eradicate. It is what keeps the
>> Japanese whaling and keeps some Africans eating bush meat. And it is
>> one of the things that helps explain the voracious and utterly
>> destructive Chinese appetite for turtles.
>>
>> As global wealth rises, so does global consumption of meat, which
>> includes wild meat. Turtle me

Re: [ECOLOG-L] 1/26 N.Y. Times Editorial on Wild Turtle Trade,

[Tom Mosca III]

Are there any catch and effort data to support this claim?

 Original message 
Clearly, limiting harvest by placing the same restrictions that are in place 
for many other vertebrates (deer, turkey, etc) would be a huge step in 
decreasing the loss of these animals and increasing the number of recruits into 
the population.

Re: [ECOLOG-L] 1/26 N.Y. Times Editorial on Wild Turtle Trade,

[Andrew Rypel]

This is an interested conservation issue, and something I haven't heard
talked about much.  I've seen a good deal of research showing very high
mercury accumulations in turtles.  Snapping turtles accumulate especially
high concentrations because of their high position in food chains.  However,
even low trophic position turtles such as sliders can accumulate high
concentrations because the areas they forage in (i.e., wetlands) are often
sites of high methylation, in addition to their longer lifespan.  I wonder
whether developing a better understanding of the distribution of
contaminants in turtle populations, and setting consumption advisories in
tandem with low bag limits could significantly depress harvest.  Obviously
human consumption limits wouldn't be a solution, just another tool to help
discourage major consumption.

Andrew L. Rypel, Ph.D.
Post-doctoral Researcher
Department of Biology
The University of Mississippi
Oxford, MS 38677
Phone: 205.886.9916

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 11:39 PM, Lori Neuman-Lee wrote:

> Thank you for bringing this issue to light.
>
> The Midwest PARC (Partners in Amphibian and Reptile Conservation) recently
> discussed this issue at the September meeting.  Specifically, in many
> states
> there is no "season" for turtles, which makes nesting females an easy
> target.  Midwest PARC discussed not only a bag limit, but also placing a
> season on turtles to avoid the capture of reproducing animals.  In many of
> these midwest states, turtles are legal to capture with a valid fishing
> license.  Clearly, limiting harvest by placing the same restrictions that
> are in place for many other vertebrates (deer, turkey, etc) would be a huge
> step in decreasing the loss of these animals and increasing the number of
> recruits into the population.
>
> I suggest that if you are interested in this, you contact your regional
> PARC
> as other regions may have similar initiatives.  The national link is:
> http://www.parcplace.org/.  From this website, you can be directed to your
> local PARC representatives.
>
> Lori Neuman-Lee
>
> ~~~
> Lori Neuman-Lee
> Eastern Illinois University, M.S. 2010
> Iowa State University, B.S. Biology 2007
> Iowa State University, B.S. English 2008
> lorin...@gmail.com
>
> On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 10:43 PM, Michael E. Welker 
> wrote:
>
> > All,
> >
> > Amphibians are not declining due to harvest. There is a simple fix to
> > turtle over-harvest and that is bag limits. Under no circumstances do we
> > want to pass banning legislation, prevent sustainable harvest, inhibit
> > captive propagation or ban commercial sales. Let's not knee jerk and go
> > Animal Rights on all the breeders, collectors and dealers who are
> preserving
> > gene pools in captivity and collecting in a sustainable manner. And doing
> > this out of their own pocket. Especially since we are doing virtually
> > nothing about habitat destruction, the impacts of roads and human
> population
> > growth.
> >
> > Someone could make some good money ranching turtles but if they are
> banned
> > that won't happen. We don't want to protect them into extinction.
> >
> > It is time to get away from the banning agenda and come up with win/win
> > regulations. If game and fish doesn't want to do its job then they need
> to
> > be restructured and allocate funding differently. The time for excuses is
> > done and private hobbyists and business owners are tired of banning
> > regulations as the "supposed" solution. It is time to open your mind.
> >
> > Mike Welker
> > El Paso, TX
> >
> >
> >
> > - Original Message - From: "Jorge Ramos" <
> > jramo...@u.washington.edu>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:32 AM
> > Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] 1/26 N.Y. Times Editorial on Wild Turtle Trade,
> >
> >
> >
> > Amphibians have been experiencing a similar situation. A couple of days
> ago
> > there was a news report by the BBC about a study coming out in
> Conservation
> > Biology by Corey Bradshaw and others. The numbers are alarming and the
> > images and their captions are interesting.
> >
> > Thanks Andrea for the heads up to this link:
> > http://news.<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7845306.stm>
> > bbc <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7845306.stm>.co.<
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7845306.stm>
> > uk <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7845306.stm>
> > /2/hi/science/nature/7845306.<
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7845306.stm>
>

Re: [ECOLOG-L] 1/26 N.Y. Times Editorial on Wild Turtle Trade,

[Antibus, Robert]

Andrew and others, 

The tissue levels of various toxins became an issue with turtles and
their use Native Americans in upstate (and I mean the real upstate) NY
in the 1980s when I was in Potsdam 


Here's a link with some data collected in that area as well as the
Hudson R

http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov/bioeco/snturtle.htm

http://www.tuscaroras.com/graydeer/pages/Toxicturtle1.htm


Bob A

Robert K. Antibus
Chair Science Department
Professor of Biology
Bluffton University

-Original Message-
From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news
[mailto:ecolo...@listserv.umd.edu] On Behalf Of Andrew Rypel
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 9:34 AM
To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] 1/26 N.Y. Times Editorial on Wild Turtle Trade,

This is an interested conservation issue, and something I haven't heard
talked about much.  I've seen a good deal of research showing very high
mercury accumulations in turtles.  Snapping turtles accumulate
especially
high concentrations because of their high position in food chains.
However,
even low trophic position turtles such as sliders can accumulate high
concentrations because the areas they forage in (i.e., wetlands) are
often
sites of high methylation, in addition to their longer lifespan.  I
wonder
whether developing a better understanding of the distribution of
contaminants in turtle populations, and setting consumption advisories
in
tandem with low bag limits could significantly depress harvest.
Obviously
human consumption limits wouldn't be a solution, just another tool to
help
discourage major consumption.

Andrew L. Rypel, Ph.D.
Post-doctoral Researcher
Department of Biology
The University of Mississippi
Oxford, MS 38677
Phone: 205.886.9916

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 11:39 PM, Lori Neuman-Lee
wrote:

> Thank you for bringing this issue to light.
>
> The Midwest PARC (Partners in Amphibian and Reptile Conservation)
recently
> discussed this issue at the September meeting.  Specifically, in many
> states
> there is no "season" for turtles, which makes nesting females an easy
> target.  Midwest PARC discussed not only a bag limit, but also placing
a
> season on turtles to avoid the capture of reproducing animals.  In
many of
> these midwest states, turtles are legal to capture with a valid
fishing
> license.  Clearly, limiting harvest by placing the same restrictions
that
> are in place for many other vertebrates (deer, turkey, etc) would be a
huge
> step in decreasing the loss of these animals and increasing the number
of
> recruits into the population.
>
> I suggest that if you are interested in this, you contact your
regional
> PARC
> as other regions may have similar initiatives.  The national link is:
> http://www.parcplace.org/.  From this website, you can be directed to
your
> local PARC representatives.
>
> Lori Neuman-Lee
>
> ~~~
> Lori Neuman-Lee
> Eastern Illinois University, M.S. 2010
> Iowa State University, B.S. Biology 2007
> Iowa State University, B.S. English 2008
> lorin...@gmail.com
>
> On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 10:43 PM, Michael E. Welker 
> wrote:
>
> > All,
> >
> > Amphibians are not declining due to harvest. There is a simple fix
to
> > turtle over-harvest and that is bag limits. Under no circumstances
do we
> > want to pass banning legislation, prevent sustainable harvest,
inhibit
> > captive propagation or ban commercial sales. Let's not knee jerk and
go
> > Animal Rights on all the breeders, collectors and dealers who are
> preserving
> > gene pools in captivity and collecting in a sustainable manner. And
doing
> > this out of their own pocket. Especially since we are doing
virtually
> > nothing about habitat destruction, the impacts of roads and human
> population
> > growth.
> >
> > Someone could make some good money ranching turtles but if they are
> banned
> > that won't happen. We don't want to protect them into extinction.
> >
> > It is time to get away from the banning agenda and come up with
win/win
> > regulations. If game and fish doesn't want to do its job then they
need
> to
> > be restructured and allocate funding differently. The time for
excuses is
> > done and private hobbyists and business owners are tired of banning
> > regulations as the "supposed" solution. It is time to open your
mind.
> >
> > Mike Welker
> > El Paso, TX
> >
> >
> >
> > - Original Message - From: "Jorge Ramos" <
> > jramo...@u.washington.edu>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:32 AM
> > Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] 1/26 N.Y. Times Editorial on Wild Turtle
Trade,
> >
> >
> >
> > Amphibians have been exper

Re: [ECOLOG-L] 1/26 N.Y. Times Editorial on Wild Turtle Trade,

[Michael E. Welker]

Tom,

I don't believe there are to many studies on this but all animals have a 
sustainable harvest amount based on the fact that they produce a great deal 
more offspring then they need to replace those lost to predation and other 
factors. Turtles are so long lived that funding a study would cost a lot and 
wouldn't be complete for many years. We know that turtles have been predated 
(harvested) for 1000's of years and they are still here. I know that isn't a 
scientific study but it is true. Long lived species do need to be managed 
differently then short lived species. But I question some of the opinions 
concerning the fragility of turtles. I also believe that over-harvest does 
occur and can cause damage to populations. But proper management can bring 
these populations back to reasonable stability. All I am saying is that 
herps are different then almost every other species in the sense that they 
are nongame species that is harvested like a game species. The other unique 
thing about herps is that they are kept alive, propagated and sold across 
state and federal lines. All of these realities must be considered when 
making management and regulatory decisions. Herps, basically, need a totally 
different approach then regulatory agencies currently give to all other 
groups. This is where the problem lies: Changing the good ole boy approach 
and ingrained mentality that has been practiced for over the last 100 years. 
The approach of today's academics and agency biologists toward herps and 
herp management is not working. Partnerships with the private sector need to 
be created and nurtured. This will require many to move to the middle and 
take a more inclusive approach.


Mike Welker
El Paso, TX


- Original Message - 
From: "Tom Mosca III" 

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 7:03 AM
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] 1/26 N.Y. Times Editorial on Wild Turtle Trade,



Are there any catch and effort data to support this claim?

 Original message 
Clearly, limiting harvest by placing the same restrictions that are in 
place for many other vertebrates (deer, turkey, etc) would be a huge step 
in decreasing the loss of these animals and increasing the number of 
recruits into the population. 

Re: [ECOLOG-L] 1/26 N.Y. Times Editorial on Wild Turtle Trade,

[Michael E. Welker]

Hello Lori and All,

I have been a member of PARC since 2000. I agree that management is a good 
idea but banning is definitely the wrong idea. Many PARC folks are against 
collecting and the sale of wild caught. We have an impasse right there. 
There are issues with PARC: pushing of a preservationist AR agenda, elitism, 
use of opinion instead of data, use of the precautionary principle, denial 
of the disconnect between them and the private sector and they are made up 
primarily of academics and those that come from academia. The private sector 
has been virtually ignored and what it will take to get their involvement 
many in PARC are not willing to do. There is a great divide between the 
private sector and academia because of the actions of academia and their 
non-inclusion of the private sector. They need to fix this in order to move 
forward and many are not willing. I have been working to try and bridge this 
disconnect but the hardest thing so far has been getting folks to admit 
there is one. Privates feel alienated and under attack and academics just 
want to push their views of preservation. Not all PARCers are unwilling to 
bridge the gap. And not all privates are unwilling to come to the table. But 
there is a lot of work to do to mend this divide. I have talked with some 
members of PARC about creating a MOU (Memo of Understanding) between PARC 
and the private sector. The private herp folks have formed a new group 
called USARK (United States Association of Reptile Keepers) to fight for 
private herpers rights. I am hopeful at some point that we can work together 
to conserve (wise USE) herps and fight the big issues that all wildlife 
populations face: Habitat destruction, the impact of roads and human 
population growth to name a few.


Mike Welker
El Paso, TX



- Original Message - 
From: "Lori Neuman-Lee" 

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] 1/26 N.Y. Times Editorial on Wild Turtle Trade,


Thank you for bringing this issue to light.

The Midwest PARC (Partners in Amphibian and Reptile Conservation) recently
discussed this issue at the September meeting.  Specifically, in many states
there is no "season" for turtles, which makes nesting females an easy
target.  Midwest PARC discussed not only a bag limit, but also placing a
season on turtles to avoid the capture of reproducing animals.  In many of
these midwest states, turtles are legal to capture with a valid fishing
license.  Clearly, limiting harvest by placing the same restrictions that
are in place for many other vertebrates (deer, turkey, etc) would be a huge
step in decreasing the loss of these animals and increasing the number of
recruits into the population.

I suggest that if you are interested in this, you contact your regional PARC
as other regions may have similar initiatives.  The national link is:
http://www.parcplace.org/.  From this website, you can be directed to your
local PARC representatives.

Lori Neuman-Lee

~~~
Lori Neuman-Lee
Eastern Illinois University, M.S. 2010
Iowa State University, B.S. Biology 2007
Iowa State University, B.S. English 2008
lorin...@gmail.com

On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 10:43 PM, Michael E. Welker  wrote:


All,

Amphibians are not declining due to harvest. There is a simple fix to
turtle over-harvest and that is bag limits. Under no circumstances do we
want to pass banning legislation, prevent sustainable harvest, inhibit
captive propagation or ban commercial sales. Let's not knee jerk and go
Animal Rights on all the breeders, collectors and dealers who are 
preserving

gene pools in captivity and collecting in a sustainable manner. And doing
this out of their own pocket. Especially since we are doing virtually
nothing about habitat destruction, the impacts of roads and human 
population

growth.

Someone could make some good money ranching turtles but if they are banned
that won't happen. We don't want to protect them into extinction.

It is time to get away from the banning agenda and come up with win/win
regulations. If game and fish doesn't want to do its job then they need to
be restructured and allocate funding differently. The time for excuses is
done and private hobbyists and business owners are tired of banning
regulations as the "supposed" solution. It is time to open your mind.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX



- Original Message - From: "Jorge Ramos" <
jramo...@u.washington.edu>
To: 
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] 1/26 N.Y. Times Editorial on Wild Turtle Trade,



Amphibians have been experiencing a similar situation. A couple of days 
ago
there was a news report by the BBC about a study coming out in 
Conservation

Biology by Corey Bradshaw and others. The numbers are alarming and the
images and their captions are interesting.

Thanks Andrea for the heads up to this link:
http://news.<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/h