Re: [ECOLOG-L] Bullfighting, machismo and sexual selection
To my knowledge, yes: when the bull is considered extremely good by the public, the bull is forgiven and so on -like Ferdinand. They just stay alive as stallions expected to have offspring as good for bullfighting as them. This, however occurs very rarely. To my opinion this is just exactly what the ancient romans did with extremely good gladitors. I hate it: it is like we the humans have the power to decide which bull is good enough to be forbidden. Moreover, the public also decides how good a bullfighter is: the not-so-good ones get one ear; two ears for better ones and two ears and the tail for better ones and so on... Anyway, I hope this will be forbidden in Spain, Mexico, Colombia, etc... Hopefully soon! Best, Edgardo ¿De qué te vale tener si no sabes qué hacer con lo que tienes? Rubén Blades Willie Colón Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 08:20:18 -0500 From: malcolm.mccal...@herpconbio.org Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Bullfighting, machismo and sexual selection To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Is it true that if the bull fights nobely that the crowd will cheer and the bull gets rewarded by a life in the pasture??? I have always heard this, but wonder if it is in fact true. Just because its written in a children's book (Ferdinand) doesn't exactly mean it holds a lot of water! :) Thanks for the feedback! On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 4:01 AM, edgardo garrido edgard...@hotmail.comwrote: As sports, bullfigting, hunting and other ways of killing species other than humans have been machismo demonstrations in the Mediterranean. It has been common not only in Spain but also in Southern France. Ancient romans were the ones giving this sense of sport to killing animals in front of everybody (remember the Coliseum). Moreover, since different wild animal species were used, some archaeologists consider it as a major reason for the extinction of many of such animals in Europe. The deepest origins of Bullfigting, however, are completely different: it appeared long before the Roman empire, in Crete, where beautiful women were dancing and jumping while the bulls were trying to kill them. It was a kind of humanfigthing made by the bull wich was considered connected to a kind of god: the Minotaurus. Romans were the ones converting such games with animals into sports killing the latter. I am panamanian and the main sport demonstrating machismo there is not Bullfighting but Boxing. Men knocking each other seems more human than bullfighting and the ancient greeks even had it as an olimpic discipline. No gloves, only the hands, and figthing until the moment when one says okey, you won, I will stay laying on the floor. Cruel, but at least both participants belong to the same species and do it more volunterly while nobody asks a bull if he wants to fight. Again, romans were the ones converting it into a bloody sport and even gave weapons to the participants: gladiators. What a bloody way of being macho! My point is the following: bullfigthing belongs to a (rich) cultural heritage of the Mediterranean world. If people there like to play with animals, they should be encouraged to do it according to the non-bloody origins of the ritual. Perhaps banning to kill bulls in Spain is an opportunity to bullfighters to win their money by jumping upon the bulls as it was made in Crete. Many women enjoy to see the bullfighters because they find them sexy: their glamorouse clothes are tightly attached to their bodies. Well, such women would have more fun if these men start the ritual with such clothes and then take-off the clothes. Just for starting, they can take-off the shirt like saying look at me, bull: I have no fear on you!, then put oil on their (semi)naked bodies and demonstrate gymnastic capabilities. Non-killing the bull would attract to the show many women who hate to see cruelty and blood on the arena. As biologists we know that such women can become healthyly excited so smart men can join them to see the show in order to share a nice session of peace and love after watching the bullfighters. Men non doing it will potentially have competitive disadvantage in sexual selection... From a capitalists point of view, banning the roman version of bullfigthing and replacing it for a more Crete version is not a risk for the buiseness of bullfighting: it is an opportunity to make it more profitable. I have no coin. If you know any buisness man taking the idea, please tell him to pay me for it. Edgardo I. Garrido-Pérez Landscape Ecology department Goettingen University, Germany ¿De qué te vale tener si no sabes qué hacer con lo que tienes? Rubén Blades Willie Colón Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 14:29:33 -1000 From: ddu...@hawaii.edu Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Bullfighting To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Bullfighting, machismo and sexual selection
As sports, bullfigting, hunting and other ways of killing species other than humans have been machismo demonstrations in the Mediterranean. It has been common not only in Spain but also in Southern France. Ancient romans were the ones giving this sense of sport to killing animals in front of everybody (remember the Coliseum). Moreover, since different wild animal species were used, some archaeologists consider it as a major reason for the extinction of many of such animals in Europe. The deepest origins of Bullfigting, however, are completely different: it appeared long before the Roman empire, in Crete, where beautiful women were dancing and jumping while the bulls were trying to kill them. It was a kind of humanfigthing made by the bull wich was considered connected to a kind of god: the Minotaurus. Romans were the ones converting such games with animals into sports killing the latter. I am panamanian and the main sport demonstrating machismo there is not Bullfighting but Boxing. Men knocking each other seems more human than bullfighting and the ancient greeks even had it as an olimpic discipline. No gloves, only the hands, and figthing until the moment when one says okey, you won, I will stay laying on the floor. Cruel, but at least both participants belong to the same species and do it more volunterly while nobody asks a bull if he wants to fight. Again, romans were the ones converting it into a bloody sport and even gave weapons to the participants: gladiators. What a bloody way of being macho! My point is the following: bullfigthing belongs to a (rich) cultural heritage of the Mediterranean world. If people there like to play with animals, they should be encouraged to do it according to the non-bloody origins of the ritual. Perhaps banning to kill bulls in Spain is an opportunity to bullfighters to win their money by jumping upon the bulls as it was made in Crete. Many women enjoy to see the bullfighters because they find them sexy: their glamorouse clothes are tightly attached to their bodies. Well, such women would have more fun if these men start the ritual with such clothes and then take-off the clothes. Just for starting, they can take-off the shirt like saying look at me, bull: I have no fear on you!, then put oil on their (semi)naked bodies and demonstrate gymnastic capabilities. Non-killing the bull would attract to the show many women who hate to see cruelty and blood on the arena. As biologists we know that such women can become healthyly excited so smart men can join them to see the show in order to share a nice session of peace and love after watching the bullfighters. Men non doing it will potentially have competitive disadvantage in sexual selection... From a capitalists point of view, banning the roman version of bullfigthing and replacing it for a more Crete version is not a risk for the buiseness of bullfighting: it is an opportunity to make it more profitable. I have no coin. If you know any buisness man taking the idea, please tell him to pay me for it. Edgardo I. Garrido-Pérez Landscape Ecology department Goettingen University, Germany ¿De qué te vale tener si no sabes qué hacer con lo que tienes? Rubén Blades Willie Colón Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 14:29:33 -1000 From: ddu...@hawaii.edu Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Bullfighting To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU I hadn't wanted to get involved in this bull (fighting) session but we all tend to have a certain perspective that we think is the one true right one. However, I am reminded of an example of the Yupik and other Native Alaskans who are appalled by fly fishing, while many more recent arrivals in the Americas consider as the highest truest form of fishing. The Yupik instead consider it as playing with your food and this is not something a grownup and moral person does, sort of like bull fighting. You only fish if you are going to eat it and you never torture your food. So one man's fly fishing is another's bull fighting. The lesson is that cultures distinguish themselves from one another by finding something repulsive in the other. David Duffy At 10:53 AM 8/19/2010, malcolm McCallum wrote: Back in the 1970s my uncle (Douglas McCallum) in Joliet did a pencil sketch of a bullfighter. IT is a great picture, my uncle was an artist who did quite a bit of pretty good stuff in the 70s before he got injured and could no longer do it. Anyway, just as he finished the drawing, people started raising awareness of animal welfare issues associated with bullfighting. So, here he had this wonderful picture and no where to market it because of the stigma. My mother loved the picture and he gave it to her for christmas or something. Anyway, it hands over my parents sofa in the living room. It is a fantastic drawing of a significant part of Mexican and Spanish culture. It is
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Bullfighting, machismo and sexual selection
Is it true that if the bull fights nobely that the crowd will cheer and the bull gets rewarded by a life in the pasture??? I have always heard this, but wonder if it is in fact true. Just because its written in a children's book (Ferdinand) doesn't exactly mean it holds a lot of water! :) Thanks for the feedback! On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 4:01 AM, edgardo garrido edgard...@hotmail.comwrote: As sports, bullfigting, hunting and other ways of killing species other than humans have been machismo demonstrations in the Mediterranean. It has been common not only in Spain but also in Southern France. Ancient romans were the ones giving this sense of sport to killing animals in front of everybody (remember the Coliseum). Moreover, since different wild animal species were used, some archaeologists consider it as a major reason for the extinction of many of such animals in Europe. The deepest origins of Bullfigting, however, are completely different: it appeared long before the Roman empire, in Crete, where beautiful women were dancing and jumping while the bulls were trying to kill them. It was a kind of humanfigthing made by the bull wich was considered connected to a kind of god: the Minotaurus. Romans were the ones converting such games with animals into sports killing the latter. I am panamanian and the main sport demonstrating machismo there is not Bullfighting but Boxing. Men knocking each other seems more human than bullfighting and the ancient greeks even had it as an olimpic discipline. No gloves, only the hands, and figthing until the moment when one says okey, you won, I will stay laying on the floor. Cruel, but at least both participants belong to the same species and do it more volunterly while nobody asks a bull if he wants to fight. Again, romans were the ones converting it into a bloody sport and even gave weapons to the participants: gladiators. What a bloody way of being macho! My point is the following: bullfigthing belongs to a (rich) cultural heritage of the Mediterranean world. If people there like to play with animals, they should be encouraged to do it according to the non-bloody origins of the ritual. Perhaps banning to kill bulls in Spain is an opportunity to bullfighters to win their money by jumping upon the bulls as it was made in Crete. Many women enjoy to see the bullfighters because they find them sexy: their glamorouse clothes are tightly attached to their bodies. Well, such women would have more fun if these men start the ritual with such clothes and then take-off the clothes. Just for starting, they can take-off the shirt like saying look at me, bull: I have no fear on you!, then put oil on their (semi)naked bodies and demonstrate gymnastic capabilities. Non-killing the bull would attract to the show many women who hate to see cruelty and blood on the arena. As biologists we know that such women can become healthyly excited so smart men can join them to see the show in order to share a nice session of peace and love after watching the bullfighters. Men non doing it will potentially have competitive disadvantage in sexual selection... From a capitalists point of view, banning the roman version of bullfigthing and replacing it for a more Crete version is not a risk for the buiseness of bullfighting: it is an opportunity to make it more profitable. I have no coin. If you know any buisness man taking the idea, please tell him to pay me for it. Edgardo I. Garrido-Pérez Landscape Ecology department Goettingen University, Germany ¿De qué te vale tener si no sabes qué hacer con lo que tienes? Rubén Blades Willie Colón Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 14:29:33 -1000 From: ddu...@hawaii.edu Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Bullfighting To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU I hadn't wanted to get involved in this bull (fighting) session but we all tend to have a certain perspective that we think is the one true right one. However, I am reminded of an example of the Yupik and other Native Alaskans who are appalled by fly fishing, while many more recent arrivals in the Americas consider as the highest truest form of fishing. The Yupik instead consider it as playing with your food and this is not something a grownup and moral person does, sort of like bull fighting. You only fish if you are going to eat it and you never torture your food. So one man's fly fishing is another's bull fighting. The lesson is that cultures distinguish themselves from one another by finding something repulsive in the other. David Duffy At 10:53 AM 8/19/2010, malcolm McCallum wrote: Back in the 1970s my uncle (Douglas McCallum) in Joliet did a pencil sketch of a bullfighter. IT is a great picture, my uncle was an artist who did quite a bit of pretty good stuff in the 70s before he got injured and could no longer do it. Anyway, just as he finished the
