Grievance process a joke to begin with;Re: gender bias: a summary of ecolog-L responses
All, The whole grievance process is a joke to begin with. The university polices itself? Yea right! No justice will ever be served. When it comes to employee versus professor or grad student versus professor the professor wins every time. I am going through a grievance process right now with an unnamed university in Tuscaloosa Alabama. The professor violated over 23 university policies (have emails to prove it) but they still stand by her side. She is one of those that will step on ANYONE to get to the top. My grievance is 326 pages long but no justice yet. However, I have upwards of 20 agencies, cooperators, granting agency personnel, law enforcement individuals, IACUC and other university offices I plan on in forming concerning her misconduct and it isn't just about the 23 university policies she violated! I have only just begun. There needs to be a system in place that allows students and employees to grieve to a non-university entity. This body should have the ability to police the university in regards to the issue(s) at hand. Professors should be held accountable for their misconduct and a discipline system set up. From my research in regards to my situation these problems are only growing and the universities are making the grievance process null and void. They have a grievance process, however, it is prohibitively restrictive and in essence not a grievance process but a paper tiger, per se. It is just a formality required by the US Department of Education. The current outcome of these situations is: 1. An incompetent professor advances through the academic system and is rewarded for their misconduct. 2. The university becomes an enabler and covers up for the professor there by becoming a willing participant and just as guilty as the professor. 3. The employee or grad student gets screwed having to make a life change that costs an individual financially and emotionally along with the toll on their family and friends. 4. The education and scientific community are slighted not to mention any ramifications in regards to the impact to organisms and ecosystems because of this misconduct. 5. The communities are robbed of a talented worker or grad student. This needs to change. We need accountability, fairness, honesty, acceptance, ethics and accessible justice w/o having to resort to legal action and/or a campaign to see the justice deserved. We should be working on conserving natural resources instead of this! Take Care, Mike Welker - Original Message - From: William Silvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 4:01 AM Subject: Re: gender bias: a summary of ecolog-L responses I am glad that Dina Fonseca made some substantive contribution to the discussion of what can be done to address the problem of gender discrimination, although it is unfortunate that so many of these postings have to begin with a gratuitous insult. She is absolutely right, all institutions (not just universities) must have clear policies on how to deal with discrimination of all types. It is more and more common to have an Ombudsman's office, but however it is handled, there must be a clear, trusted and safe avenue for addressing complaints. However she is also right in pointing out that there are complications in academia. If a student files a grievance against her advisor, and he is the only faculty member in her specialty, where does she go from there? I think we need to consider the possibility that a student might need to transfer to another institution if the issue cannot be resolved, so inter-university cooperation is needed. There are more aspects of this that need discussing, but rather than provide moe fodder for accusations of clichés I'll leave it at that. Bill Silvert - Original Message - From: Dina Fonseca [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 1:10 AM Subject: Re: gender bias: a summary of ecolog-L responses To address Bill Silvert's point that women on the list have been describing their experiences, [...] the men are trying to identify the scope of the problem and talk about what can be done about it And what a cliché this is, no? But lets go on. Women have been describing their experiences because for the most part only they can provide the data first hand when addressing gender bias against females - which was the topic under discussion. I have actually learned quite a bit since the beginning of this discussion (especially through 1-on-1 exchanges) about how much discrimination women have experienced and are experiencing. It seems, as expected, that the bulk of it (at least the most overt discrimination) happens during the most vulnerable stages (grad and postdoc). And that leads me to want to know What can be done about it? Are there established channels at Universities and other similar
Re: gender bias: a summary of ecolog-L responses
I am glad that Dina Fonseca made some substantive contribution to the discussion of what can be done to address the problem of gender discrimination, although it is unfortunate that so many of these postings have to begin with a gratuitous insult. She is absolutely right, all institutions (not just universities) must have clear policies on how to deal with discrimination of all types. It is more and more common to have an Ombudsman's office, but however it is handled, there must be a clear, trusted and safe avenue for addressing complaints. However she is also right in pointing out that there are complications in academia. If a student files a grievance against her advisor, and he is the only faculty member in her specialty, where does she go from there? I think we need to consider the possibility that a student might need to transfer to another institution if the issue cannot be resolved, so inter-university cooperation is needed. There are more aspects of this that need discussing, but rather than provide moe fodder for accusations of clichés I'll leave it at that. Bill Silvert - Original Message - From: Dina Fonseca [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 1:10 AM Subject: Re: gender bias: a summary of ecolog-L responses To address Bill Silvert's point that women on the list have been describing their experiences, [...] the men are trying to identify the scope of the problem and talk about what can be done about it And what a cliché this is, no? But lets go on. Women have been describing their experiences because for the most part only they can provide the data first hand when addressing gender bias against females - which was the topic under discussion. I have actually learned quite a bit since the beginning of this discussion (especially through 1-on-1 exchanges) about how much discrimination women have experienced and are experiencing. It seems, as expected, that the bulk of it (at least the most overt discrimination) happens during the most vulnerable stages (grad and postdoc). And that leads me to want to know What can be done about it? Are there established channels at Universities and other similar institutions to address for example cases in which advisors are being sexist and creating a very difficult environment to female students? What should a sympathetic faculty do? Should we advise students to talk to the Department Chair? Should the sympathetic faculty confront the advisor? Are students informed of their options? I am in a small non-for-profit organization and we have very clear discrimination and harassment rules as well as guidelines. In case of discrimination we need to (1) document, best if you find a witness or someone that will come forward with similar issues; (2) talk to Human Resources. And all staff has to attend information sections. I am pretty sure that is true in the corporate world too. But is there a similar structure in Academic Institutions? Is there something like a Human Resources office for students? I feel this is particularly complicated because a graduate student's research as well a postdoc's is often closely intertwined to that of the advisor. Please send advise and ideas. I will be happy to post a summary at the end. Thanks, Dina On 11/6/06 9:02 AM, William Silvert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have the feeling that we have run into a dead end in this discussion. As Cara Lin points out, women on the list have been describing their experiences, but I think the men are trying to identify the scope of the problem and talk about what can be done about it. Given that some women have complained of extreme bias while others have praised supportive advisors, I really do not come away from this with a sense of how widespread the problem is, whether there are a few very bad universities or whether they are almost all dens of evil, except for a handful (or maybe just the odd good person in the mix). In the second paragraph of the posting below is a good example of the sort of statement that makes some of us automatically guilty -- I have also noted the dominance of non-white students in some classes. In fact, I used to teach at a US university located close to an urban ghetto, and although there were many black students in the introductory classes, some from the neighbourhood and some from Africa, the local students were almost all functionally iliterate, while the Africans were mostly the product of top British schools. The Africans moved up while many of the US blacks left, despite many remedial programs. There was certainly racial bias in the educational system, but I don't really feel that it was working at the university level. Still, statistics don't lie, and we are all guilty as charged. I guess we leave it at that and don't try to fix the system. Bill Silvert - Original Message - From
Re: gender bias: a summary of ecolog-L responses
Thank you, Anita, for this summary. I was noticing the same pattern: the women describing their experience and the men classifying this experience as anecdotal and asking for studies. Where there are studies, I appreciate seeing them. When each generation of women scientists experiences bias, however, it is hard to see what the studies do, other than prove the bias is still there and that each woman's experience is not idiosyncratic to her alone. I am white, but I have also noticed race bias. In my studies in the US from college through Ph.D., non-white classmates were from other countries. In Taiwan, aborigines are almost missing from biology programs. CL Anita Lahey wrote: From a survey of Virginia Tech faculty: On-campus women respondents assessed every aspect of the climate less positively than did men. While only a third of women respondents rated the university climate relatively non-sexist, more than two-thirds of men perceived the climate for women as positive, and, Whites were largely unaware of the extent of racism perceived in the university climate by African-Americans. For example, 65 percent of African-Americans judged the university climate as relatively racist compared with only 18 percent of white respondents. http://www.dsp.multicultural.vt.edu/climate/ Similarly, on this listserve, 8 out of 9 (89%) women said there is gender bias in ecology/biology, while 3 out of 5 (60%) men said that gender bias does not exist. 3 out of 3 women were not concerned with age bias, while 2 out of 3 men expressed concern about age bias. 4 out of 6 (67%) of women believed that maternity/paternity leave or raising children poses an additional challenge/problem, while 7 out 9 (78%) men said that maternity/paternity leave should not pose a problem. Anita Lahey Disclaimer: My goal in citing a personal anecdote was not to indict (or incite) a particular person, department, institution, field of research, the American Fisheries Society or to discourage undergraduate women from the applied sciences. My goal was to shake up complacency. ~~ Cara Lin Bridgman P.O. Box 013 Phone: 886-4-2632-5484 Longjing Sinjhuang Taichung 434 Taiwanhttp://web.thu.edu.tw/caralinb/www/ ~~
Re: gender bias: a summary of ecolog-L responses
I am surprised at this interpretation of the postings. As I recall, no male poster stated that gender bias does not exist although some, such as Gary Grossman, felt that the degree of discrimination had been exaggerated. As for the men who said that maternity/paternity leave should not pose a problem, the key word here is should -- I certainly argued that it should not pose a problem, but that is different from stating that it is a problem. I think that most of the male posters admitted that there are serious problems, and some of us tried to point to solutions It appears that at least in some quarters though we are bound to be condemned. This is not a good way to make progress. Bill Silvert - Original Message - From: Anita Lahey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 12:30 AM Subject: gender bias: a summary of ecolog-L responses Similarly, on this listserve, 8 out of 9 (89%) women said there is gender bias in ecology/biology, while 3 out of 5 (60%) men said that gender bias does not exist. 3 out of 3 women were not concerned with age bias, while 2 out of 3 men expressed concern about age bias. 4 out of 6 (67%) of women believed that maternity/paternity leave or raising children poses an additional challenge/problem, while 7 out 9 (78%) men said that maternity/paternity leave should not pose a problem.
Re: gender bias: a summary of ecolog-L responses
Maybe the post was a bit exaggerated, the general line is clear, and that is that what women experience differs from what men see. Kim William Silvert wrote: I am surprised at this interpretation of the postings. As I recall, no male poster stated that gender bias does not exist although some, such as Gary Grossman, felt that the degree of discrimination had been exaggerated. As for the men who said that maternity/paternity leave should not pose a problem, the key word here is should -- I certainly argued that it should not pose a problem, but that is different from stating that it is a problem. I think that most of the male posters admitted that there are serious problems, and some of us tried to point to solutions It appears that at least in some quarters though we are bound to be condemned. This is not a good way to make progress. Bill Silvert - Original Message - From: Anita Lahey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 12:30 AM Subject: gender bias: a summary of ecolog-L responses Similarly, on this listserve, 8 out of 9 (89%) women said there is gender bias in ecology/biology, while 3 out of 5 (60%) men said that gender bias does not exist. 3 out of 3 women were not concerned with age bias, while 2 out of 3 men expressed concern about age bias. 4 out of 6 (67%) of women believed that maternity/paternity leave or raising children poses an additional challenge/problem, while 7 out 9 (78%) men said that maternity/paternity leave should not pose a problem. -- http://www.kimvdlinde.com
Re: gender bias: a summary of ecolog-L responses
I have the feeling that we have run into a dead end in this discussion. As Cara Lin points out, women on the list have been describing their experiences, but I think the men are trying to identify the scope of the problem and talk about what can be done about it. Given that some women have complained of extreme bias while others have praised supportive advisors, I really do not come away from this with a sense of how widespread the problem is, whether there are a few very bad universities or whether they are almost all dens of evil, except for a handful (or maybe just the odd good person in the mix). In the second paragraph of the posting below is a good example of the sort of statement that makes some of us automatically guilty -- I have also noted the dominance of non-white students in some classes. In fact, I used to teach at a US university located close to an urban ghetto, and although there were many black students in the introductory classes, some from the neighbourhood and some from Africa, the local students were almost all functionally iliterate, while the Africans were mostly the product of top British schools. The Africans moved up while many of the US blacks left, despite many remedial programs. There was certainly racial bias in the educational system, but I don't really feel that it was working at the university level. Still, statistics don't lie, and we are all guilty as charged. I guess we leave it at that and don't try to fix the system. Bill Silvert - Original Message - From: Cara Lin Bridgman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 5:24 AM Subject: Re: gender bias: a summary of ecolog-L responses Thank you, Anita, for this summary. I was noticing the same pattern: the women describing their experience and the men classifying this experience as anecdotal and asking for studies. Where there are studies, I appreciate seeing them. When each generation of women scientists experiences bias, however, it is hard to see what the studies do, other than prove the bias is still there and that each woman's experience is not idiosyncratic to her alone. I am white, but I have also noticed race bias. In my studies in the US from college through Ph.D., non-white classmates were from other countries. In Taiwan, aborigines are almost missing from biology programs. CL
gender bias: a summary of ecolog-L responses
From a survey of Virginia Tech faculty: On-campus women respondents assessed every aspect of the climate less positively than did men. While only a third of women respondents rated the university climate relatively non-sexist, more than two-thirds of men perceived the climate for women as positive, and, Whites were largely unaware of the extent of racism perceived in the university climate by African-Americans. For example, 65 percent of African-Americans judged the university climate as relatively racist compared with only 18 percent of white respondents. http://www.dsp.multicultural.vt.edu/climate/ Similarly, on this listserve, 8 out of 9 (89%) women said there is gender bias in ecology/biology, while 3 out of 5 (60%) men said that gender bias does not exist. 3 out of 3 women were not concerned with age bias, while 2 out of 3 men expressed concern about age bias. 4 out of 6 (67%) of women believed that maternity/paternity leave or raising children poses an additional challenge/problem, while 7 out 9 (78%) men said that maternity/paternity leave should not pose a problem. Anita Lahey Disclaimer: My goal in citing a personal anecdote was not to indict (or incite) a particular person, department, institution, field of research, the American Fisheries Society or to discourage undergraduate women from the applied sciences. My goal was to shake up complacency.
