Excel vs. Specialized stats packages (was: Excel vs Quattro Pro)
Dennis Roberts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... i don't know the answer to this but ... i have a general question with regards to using spreadsheets for stat analysis why? ... why do we not help our students and encourage our students to use tools designed for a task ... rather than substituting something that may just barely get us by? we don't ask stat packages to do what spreadsheets were designed to do ... why the reverse? This is an interesting discussion, but the line between a spreadsheet and stats package is not so clear-cut these days. If you look at how the major stats packages have developed over the last decade, you can see how they have copied more and more features from Excel. In fact almost all stats packages now boast of containing a fully featured built-in spreadsheet for data entry. Looking at the situation from another angle, why can't a spreadsheet be used for statistical analysis? Granted, some of Excel's built-in statistical functions leave a lot to be desired and should be used with care. But the Excel spreadsheet package is still head-and-shoulders above any other similar product in terms of ease of use, data entry and collection, presentation, programming interfaces, and it's excellent integration with the other Office applications. So if the basic spreadsheet component is sound, and almost all computer and non-computer literate users can use Excel without problems, why not just extend Excel's statistical capabilities with reliable accurate statistical add-ons? Many exist, and we develop a product called Analyse-it for this very purpose. I think the group should also remember than versions of SAS and SPSS from only a few years ago suffered from accuracy problems. McCullough published details of the problems in his articles for The American Statistician in 1999. Of course, the product developers have now fixed the problems which customers no doubt paid for in later upgrades. And yet these packages are still seen as the gold standard, taken for granted as accurate, even though these accuracy problems lurked for possibly 10 or 15 years until highlighted by McCullough! I am not saying the problems of Excel, a tool so widely used and taken for granted by most users, should not have its problems highlighted. But, to say that the whole Excel package should be dismissed in favour of a stats package which costs more, basically is a copy of Excel's spreadsheet functionality, and then has accuracy problems of it's own, is a little blinkered. A reliable low-cost statistics add-on for Excel can easily bypass these problems. _ James Huntington, ..Analyse-it Software, Ltd. . Analyse-it! accurate low-cost statistical software for Microsoft Excel. For more information to download a free evaluation, visit us: http://www.analyse-it.com = Instructions for joining and leaving this list, remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES, and archives are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Excel vs. Specialized stats packages (was: Excel vs Quattro Pro)
rse? This is an interesting discussion, but the line between a spreadsheet and stats package is not so clear-cut these days. If you look at how the major stats packages have developed over the last decade, you can see how they have copied more and more features from Excel. In fact almost all stats packages now boast of containing a fully featured built-in spreadsheet for data entry. certainly minitab makes no such claim ... their worksheet is NOT a spreadsheet Looking at the situation from another angle, why can't a spreadsheet be used for statistical analysis? Granted, some of Excel's built-in statistical functions leave a lot to be desired and should be used with care. But the Excel spreadsheet package is still head-and-shoulders above any other similar product in terms of ease of use, data entry and collection, presentation, programming interfaces, and it's excellent integration with the other Office applications. so, i am not sure this has anything to do with statistical analysis So if the basic spreadsheet component is sound, and almost all computer and non-computer literate users can use Excel without problems, why not just extend Excel's statistical capabilities with reliable accurate statistical add-ons? Many exist, and we develop a product called Analyse-it for this very purpose. i have looked at analyse-it and one other plug in (plus what comes with excel) ... and, there just is no comparision between them (well there is ... and it is not very good) and most of the popular stat packages A reliable low-cost statistics add-on for Excel can easily bypass these problems. unfortunately though, it does not exist here are the major problems with using excel as a stat package including 3rd party plugins (off the top of my head) 1. poor data MANAGEMENT capabilities 2. poor and HIGHLY LIMITED graphics 3. highly limited set of routines to select from 4. inability to work with any/many random generation functions (for distributions) 5. limited access to important statistical tables from discussions like this on several lists, it is clear that no argument pro or con will sway those who have opted for or agin using excel as the statistical analysis tool but, each side keeps trying this kind of discussion, though interesting, pales in comparision to a discussion we should be having about the over reliance and importance we place in statistical analysis in the first place ... and even though i have been in this sort of enterprise for more years than you can shake a stick at ... the reality is that typical analysis that we do has limited practical uses and benefits the entire area of statistical significance testing is just one case in point _ James Huntington, ..Analyse-it Software, Ltd. . Analyse-it! accurate low-cost statistical software for Microsoft Excel. For more information to download a free evaluation, visit us: http://www.analyse-it.com = Instructions for joining and leaving this list, remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES, and archives are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ = _ dennis roberts, educational psychology, penn state university 208 cedar, AC 8148632401, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/drober~1.htm = Instructions for joining and leaving this list, remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES, and archives are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Excel vs. Specialized stats packages (was: Excel vs Quattro Pro)
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --FF40099A76AC09807844CBC3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Huntington wrote: Excel spreadsheet package is still head-and-shoulders above any other similar product in terms of ease of use, data entry and collection, presentation, programming interfaces, and it's excellent integration with the other Office applications. IMHO. Excel has market share but it is third in the three major spreadsheets for ease of use etc.. Quattro Pro, Lotus, Excel. Spreadsheets are not designed to carry value labels, distinct missing values, level of measurement, etc in the data definition --FF40099A76AC09807844CBC3 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name=Arthur.Kendall.vcf Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Art Kendall Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=Arthur.Kendall.vcf begin:vcard n:Kendall;Art tel;work:301-864-5570 x-mozilla-html:FALSE adr:;; version:2.1 email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] fn:Art Kendall end:vcard --FF40099A76AC09807844CBC3-- = Instructions for joining and leaving this list, remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES, and archives are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
RE: clusters within a sample
Yvonne Unrau writes: I am working with a large administrative data (N=1,086) set for a foster care agency. In short, I am comparing client outcomes across two branches (each is delivering a different service model). For analyses, I am using logistic regression (SPSS) where my dependent variables include a variety of outcomes measuring program success vs. failure. My test variable is the program (two groups), plus I have several other demographic and service related variables. My problem is that I have two types of clusters of children in my data set: siblings from the same biological family (may or may not be placed in the same foster home) foster children placed in one foster home (may or may not be siblings) I am looking for ways to test the amount of error associated with the above clusters using SPSS. My strategy to date has been to SELECT the restricted sample, run the LR analysis, then eyeball the results. What are my other options? Wow! A messy data set. What fun! First thing you should do is to get a handle on the size of your clusters. Are they often just one child and only rarely do the clusters tend to be two or more children? Or is it the opposite case, where almost every cluster has two or more children in it. If most of your data is just one child in each cluster, then it may make sense to lower your expectations. A binary dependent variable gives you relatively little information about variability (at least compared to a continuous variable) and you may be trying to estimate something without enough data to get any reasonable estimates. Second, you need to understand how the data behaves at a higher level. Create an aggregate variable across all members of the cluster and then model that aggregate variable. This is tricky, and you may have to use a model which assumes nice normal residuals when your data is clearly non-normal. That's okay, because you are just trying to get a starting point for a more complex analysis. Third, you need to abandon SPSS and use software that can model random effects in a logistic regression analysis. The beta-binomial model is the one that was first developed for this data, but other models have been used more recently. I think SAS and STATA can handle this type of analysis and there is probably other software as well. Fourth, you need to estimate each cluster effect separately first. Estimate the sibling effect ignoring the foster family effect. If possible, randomly select only one member within each foster family and do the analysis with a random sibling effect. Reverse the process and estimate the foster family effect after randomly selecting only one sibling. Fifth, see if you can estimate both effects simultaneously. This model is very complex and even software that can handle random effects in a logistic regression model may not be able to handle this. You may want to become friends with someone in the Statistics Department at your university. This is a very tricky analysis. Good luck! Steve Simon, [EMAIL PROTECTED], Standard Disclaimer. The STATS web page has moved to http://www.childrens-mercy.org/stats
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Re: Excel vs. Specialized stats packages (was: Excel vsQuattro Pro)
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --141A87E6CFA8A75FBE4147FD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SPSS also does not claim to have a fully featured spread sheet. The GUI has 2 spreadsheet-like components: the data view which shows the data table itself and the variables view which is a table that has a row for each variable and columns for all the data definition. In the variables views the cells are un-spreadsheetlike (How's that for a neologism!) in that they use Windows drop down controls in the cells to define value labels and different kinds of missing data values. In the data view cells do not contain formulae. SPSS uses many of the Windows features derived from Xerox and DECWindows that speadsheets use such as menus to create syntax or to directly perform tasks. Dennis Roberts wrote: rse? This is an interesting discussion, but the line between a spreadsheet and stats package is not so clear-cut these days. If you look at how the major stats packages have developed over the last decade, you can see how they have copied more and more features from Excel. In fact almost all stats packages now boast of containing a fully featured built-in spreadsheet for data entry. certainly minitab makes no such claim ... their worksheet is NOT a spreadsheet Looking at the situation from another angle, why can't a spreadsheet be used for statistical analysis? Granted, some of Excel's built-in statistical functions leave a lot to be desired and should be used with care. But the Excel spreadsheet package is still head-and-shoulders above any other similar product in terms of ease of use, data entry and collection, presentation, programming interfaces, and it's excellent integration with the other Office applications. so, i am not sure this has anything to do with statistical analysis So if the basic spreadsheet component is sound, and almost all computer and non-computer literate users can use Excel without problems, why not just extend Excel's statistical capabilities with reliable accurate statistical add-ons? Many exist, and we develop a product called Analyse-it for this very purpose. i have looked at analyse-it and one other plug in (plus what comes with excel) ... and, there just is no comparision between them (well there is ... and it is not very good) and most of the popular stat packages A reliable low-cost statistics add-on for Excel can easily bypass these problems. unfortunately though, it does not exist here are the major problems with using excel as a stat package including 3rd party plugins (off the top of my head) 1. poor data MANAGEMENT capabilities 2. poor and HIGHLY LIMITED graphics 3. highly limited set of routines to select from 4. inability to work with any/many random generation functions (for distributions) 5. limited access to important statistical tables from discussions like this on several lists, it is clear that no argument pro or con will sway those who have opted for or agin using excel as the statistical analysis tool but, each side keeps trying this kind of discussion, though interesting, pales in comparision to a discussion we should be having about the over reliance and importance we place in statistical analysis in the first place ... and even though i have been in this sort of enterprise for more years than you can shake a stick at ... the reality is that typical analysis that we do has limited practical uses and benefits the entire area of statistical significance testing is just one case in point _ James Huntington, ..Analyse-it Software, Ltd. . Analyse-it! accurate low-cost statistical software for Microsoft Excel. For more information to download a free evaluation, visit us: http://www.analyse-it.com = Instructions for joining and leaving this list, remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES, and archives are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ = _ dennis roberts, educational psychology, penn state university 208 cedar, AC 8148632401, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/drober~1.htm = Instructions for joining and leaving this list, remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES, and archives are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ = --141A87E6CFA8A75FBE4147FD Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name=Arthur.Kendall.vcf Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Art Kendall Content-Disposition:
The Chart of the Week website
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The chart of the week
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Chart of the Week
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Re: Chart of the Week
Gary Klass [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... http://lilt.ilstu.edu/gmklass/COW/ Does this prove that TV makes you bad at math or that if you're bad at math you tend to watch more TV? This is a bit like the fact that market researchers only glean information from people who are willing to take part in market research... Consider: What if a propensity to say 'Yes' to 'Do you want to take part in a survey?' would also make you like (say) Chocoloate Peanut Butter more? Given that a small number of people actually take part in market research, The Fictional Peanut Butter Corporation is going to start manufacturing Chocolate Peanut Butter based on their survey, and then find no (or not many) takers in the 'real world'. Beware statistics, and more importantly, anything based on market research or a survey. Okay, rant over, Carl = Instructions for joining and leaving this list, remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES, and archives are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Parameter Estimate of Pascal Distribution
Hi! Can I know how do I estimate the parameters for a Pascal distribution?? Thanks,,, CCC = Instructions for joining and leaving this list, remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES, and archives are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Excel vs. Specialized stats packages (was: Excel vs Quattro Pro)
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --2FCDC48C37CC68962902D12E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Excel is a microsoft product. Microsoft's approach is to take existing concepts and re-package them. (e.g., MSDOS followed most of the conventions of RT-11 and RSX-11, Windows used a lot of the conventions of Mosaic and DecWindows) It did not introduce most of the concepts in Excel. NPCalc was using a visual spreadsheet before Microsoft or PC's existed. VisiCalc introduced the visual spreadsheet to PC's. James Huntington wrote: snip It doesn't, but my point was that a stats package is based around a spreadsheet (most of which plagiarize Excel), snip --2FCDC48C37CC68962902D12E Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name=Arthur.Kendall.vcf Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Art Kendall Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=Arthur.Kendall.vcf begin:vcard n:Kendall;Art tel;work:301-864-5570 x-mozilla-html:FALSE adr:;; version:2.1 email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] fn:Art Kendall end:vcard --2FCDC48C37CC68962902D12E-- = Instructions for joining and leaving this list, remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES, and archives are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re : Approximation F (Snedecor formula)
I have a problem because I can't find Snedecor values for other level of probability like 0.995 and 0.999. Does'it exit a approximation formula wich gives the values of the Snedecor formula with the two numbers of degres of freedom and the probability level. Something like Taylor developpement or other. If somebody known where i can find the values of Snedecor for probability level like 0.999 or 0.995 (Table or other) Thanks... Regards, Laurence = Instructions for joining and leaving this list, remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES, and archives are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Excel vs. Specialized stats packages (was: Excel vs
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dennis Roberts) wrote: i have looked at analyse-it and one other plug in (plus what comes with excel) ... and, there just is no comparision between them (well there is ... and it is not very good) and most of the popular stat packages Can you expand on this, many people have only a minor requirement for some basic tests and exploration, often where the budget won't run to the purchase or training time involved in using a fuller statistics program. I would be interested in more fully understanding why there is no comparison. Many thanks, Graham S = Instructions for joining and leaving this list, remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES, and archives are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Measurement Position
Now that the holidays are behind (most) us, I would like to remind possible interested persons in the Asst./Assoc. Professor position opening in Measurement at Penn State ... in the Educational Psychology program. We are hoping to find someone with SOME experience beyond the doctorate (but, new doctoral recipients will be considered) with primary focus instructional areas being some combination of IRT, HLM, and SEM The description of the position can be found at: http://www.ed.psu.edu/employment/edpsymeas.asp If you have ANY questions about this position, please contact ME directly at: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] _ dennis roberts, educational psychology, penn state university 208 cedar, AC 8148632401, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/drober~1.htm = Instructions for joining and leaving this list, remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES, and archives are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Parameter Estimate of Pascal Distribution
Hi.. I think I know how to solve this already..I found plenty ways to do this in the following book: Univariate discrete distributions, by N.L. Johnson, S. Kotz, A. Kemp Cheers, CCC Chia C Chong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message a1fac3$f23$[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:a1fac3$f23$[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Hi! Can I know how do I estimate the parameters for a Pascal distribution?? Thanks,,, CCC = Instructions for joining and leaving this list, remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES, and archives are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Chart of the Week
True -- though I don't think the problem is with response rate -- The data come from the National NAEP exam, the data points represent the average state math score and the replies to a survey that I presume was administered to all students taking the test -- since it is a part of the same database. A more interesting vorrelation here is the negative correlation between the % of students with a positive attitude toward mathmatics and the math scores -- it's strongly negative. Perhaps that's that's because students who are not taught difficult math really like. Carl W. wrote: Gary Klass [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... http://lilt.ilstu.edu/gmklass/COW/ Does this prove that TV makes you bad at math or that if you're bad at math you tend to watch more TV? This is a bit like the fact that market researchers only glean information from people who are willing to take part in market research... Consider: What if a propensity to say 'Yes' to 'Do you want to take part in a survey?' would also make you like (say) Chocoloate Peanut Butter more? Given that a small number of people actually take part in market research, The Fictional Peanut Butter Corporation is going to start manufacturing Chocolate Peanut Butter based on their survey, and then find no (or not many) takers in the 'real world'. Beware statistics, and more importantly, anything based on market research or a survey. Okay, rant over, Carl = Instructions for joining and leaving this list, remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES, and archives are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
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EXCEL 2000 Statistical ToolPac Faults and Problems
I have started going through McCullough and Wilson's paper On the Accuracy of Statistical Procedures in Microsoft Excel 2000. I have found one error, and may find more. However I need to put them all together, and that will take some time. My point is that the Excel 2000 faults are not that severe when Excel is used in the intended environment. The NIST tests are pretty severe and represent primarily invented data sets or unusual data fitting situations. I can see workarounds to bypass some of the Excel limitations. I need however to test them for validity against the NIST data sets first. Again this is going to take some time. What I intended is to say is, don't jump to conclusions yer. DAHeiser = Instructions for joining and leaving this list, remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES, and archives are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Excel vs Quattro Pro
Why bother teaching students SAS if nobody can afford their annual license fee? Spreadsheets works because many people owns MS Office and chances of their using skills learned in class is greater. Ken = Instructions for joining and leaving this list, remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES, and archives are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Chart of the Week
Gary Klass wrote: http://lilt.ilstu.edu/gmklass/COW/ As other posters have noted: always beware the obvious implications of correlations. A common example is that drownings and ice cream sales are strongly correlated. I think it worth noting that the students who watch more TV (or any of them really) are not terribly likely to go to their room and study math instead if they were denied that opportunity. But that's just a conjecture. -Derrick Coetzee = Instructions for joining and leaving this list, remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES, and archives are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
*Job Posting* SAS Programmer Analyst - CA, Bay Area
Location: San Francisco Area, CA (East Bay) Successful biotechnology company developing leading-edge products for the prevention and treatment of infectious diseases and cancer. Seeking a SAS Programmer/ Analyst to join the Clinical Data Management team. You will provide SAS programming support in analyzing clinical trials data and develop SAS software and end-user systems using SAS and other applications. Requires BS/MS in computer science, statistics, life science or other analytical science with a minimum 2 years SAS experience in the analysis of clinical trial/biomedical data, or 5 years SAS programming in the analysis of clinical trials data, including expert knowledge of SAS. Experience developing end-user applications. Familiarity with Oracle or ClinTrial or SQL Server desirable. Email resume for immediate consideration, or for further information please contact: Tom Whiting Enterprise Resource Group San Francisco, CA (voice) (415) 221-6300 (email) [EMAIL PROTECTED] = Instructions for joining and leaving this list, remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES, and archives are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Chart of the Week
Perhaps a bit off topic, but: I don't think your market research observation is all that true. Of course, we should all take survey based results carefully. But (having formerly worked in market research) from what I've seen, representativeness is an issue those folks are VERY well aware of and do try to address. And who are you saying should be aware? The consumer (in which case a bad survey wouldn't affect, except if they stop making Choc. PB based on the survey and your a Choc. PB lover) or the corporate client of the market research firm (well ok, but at worst they're contributing $$ to the economy)? Which brings up (off topic) an appearant disdain towards statistics in commerce, from some real statisticians. IMO, more statistician should embrace it and try to weasel/attract more true statisticians into business. Surely, this would help attract more people into stats and hence more funding and hence, more big fat endowed chairs in the Stats dept. at XYZ university and hence higher salaries for all of us who read sci.stat.xxx! If I'm just knocking down a straw-man, well, I'm glad I'm wrong. -Iyue Carl W. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Gary Klass [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... http://lilt.ilstu.edu/gmklass/COW/ Does this prove that TV makes you bad at math or that if you're bad at math you tend to watch more TV? This is a bit like the fact that market researchers only glean information from people who are willing to take part in market research... Consider: What if a propensity to say 'Yes' to 'Do you want to take part in a survey?' would also make you like (say) Chocoloate Peanut Butter more? Given that a small number of people actually take part in market research, The Fictional Peanut Butter Corporation is going to start manufacturing Chocolate Peanut Butter based on their survey, and then find no (or not many) takers in the 'real world'. Beware statistics, and more importantly, anything based on market research or a survey. Okay, rant over, Carl = Instructions for joining and leaving this list, remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES, and archives are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
