Re: Excel vs Quattro Pro
>>>>> "GG" == Gus Gassmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> There are plenty of reasonable FREE packages, ViSta and R come >> to mind. GG> That's all fine and good, but I can see kenmlin's point. Yes, GG> excel is lousy at statistics, yes, their attitude towards GG> errors in the software stinks, and, yes, there are real GG> statistical packages available for students at little or no GG> cost. However, in a business school I have absolutely no GG> illusion that any of my students will ever be GG> statisticians. They will be consumers of statistics, and they GG> will occasionally produce simple statistics themselves. I GG> teach the use of minitab in my classes, by I feel that I would GG> be remiss if I didn't also teach them how to use excel (and GG> warn them about potential pitfalls), since there is no reason GG> to suspect that they will have acess to a statistical package GG> once they are out in the workforce. I've got no problems, generally with excel. Just don't make me use it, since there is no reasonable way to provide an audit trail of what was done. However, part of the reason for suggesting the two packages is that they CAN use excel files. Note that I've just suggested 2 cross-platform, freely available alternatives. There is no reason NOT to have access to either product in the workplace (since both will work on macs, windows, (and while vista's support isn't as good here) unix). So now, the question becomes, why bother with minitab, since you could provide training on software that they can have available (Excel, and R or ViSta). best, -tony -- A.J. RossiniRsrch. Asst. Prof. of Biostatistics U. of Washington Biostatistics [EMAIL PROTECTED] FHCRC/SCHARP/HIV Vaccine Trials Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://software.biostat.washington.edu/ -- FHCRC: M-W: 206-667-7025 (fax=4812)|Voicemail is pretty sketchy/use Email UW: T-Th: 206-543-1044 (fax=3286)|Change last 4 digits of phone to FAX Rosen: (Mullins' Lab) Fridays, and I'm unreachable except by email. = Instructions for joining and leaving this list, remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES, and archives are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Excel vs Quattro Pro
>>>>> "k" == kenmlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: k> Sorry I pissed everyone off. My argument is more relevant to k> teaching introductory statistics course to non-stat majors who k> might not have access to stat packages at their own department k> or when they leave school. I felt that teaching Excel is k> beneficial in a sense that they might actually be able to use k> what they learned since Excel's more readily available. I also k> found that I had next to no time to cover the software while I k> was teaching intro stat course. k> I understand that it's very important for many of you to teach k> stat package because it's what you are familiar with and you k> have access to it. (The stat dept I belonged to didn't have k> the budget for a decent computer lab so I always had to come up k> with ways to work around with the lack of resources.) I k> apologize for being practical. I myself is now a SAS k> professional but I think differently if I am teaching. There are plenty of reasonable FREE packages, ViSta and R come to mind. ViSta is click-and-point, with a number of nice features; R needs a bit (MUCH!) more hand-holding, but pays off with the ability to do much, much more when understood. best, -tony -- A.J. RossiniRsrch. Asst. Prof. of Biostatistics U. of Washington Biostatistics [EMAIL PROTECTED] FHCRC/SCHARP/HIV Vaccine Trials Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://software.biostat.washington.edu/ -- FHCRC: M-W: 206-667-7025 (fax=4812)|Voicemail is pretty sketchy/use Email UW: T-Th: 206-543-1044 (fax=3286)|Change last 4 digits of phone to FAX Rosen: (Mullins' Lab) Fridays, and I'm unreachable except by email. = Instructions for joining and leaving this list, remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES, and archives are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Excel vs Quattro Pro
>>>>> "DR" == Dennis Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DR> i don't know the answer to this but ... i have a general DR> question with regards to using spreadsheets for stat analysis DR> why? ... why do we not help our students and encourage our DR> students to use tools designed for a task ... rather than DR> substituting something that may just barely get us by? DR> we don't ask stat packages to do what spreadsheets were DR> designed to do ... why the reverse? Let's think about this in another way. Spreadsheets do form a nice means for thinking about datasets. In fact, a good number of "decent" statistical packages can interact with spreadsheets, or provide a spreadsheet-style interface. There are a number of rather useful EDA tools that spreadsheets like Excel provide (easily programmable in R or XLispStat, to name my two favorite statistics languages). So, what's missing in spreadsheets? the ability to designate dataset structures for statistical modeling with the same flexibility as a decent statistical language (I'm thinking generalized linear models (not general linear models!), correlated regression, event-time regression analysis; robust numerical computations at the same level, and a large set of tools. However, more critical is, "what's missing in statistical languages?", and I think that the answer are tools to help novices ramp up "properly". I'll leave the definition of "properly" open for debate. -- A.J. RossiniRsrch. Asst. Prof. of Biostatistics U. of Washington Biostatistics [EMAIL PROTECTED] FHCRC/SCHARP/HIV Vaccine Trials Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://software.biostat.washington.edu/ -- FHCRC: M-W: 206-667-7025 (fax=4812)|Voicemail is pretty sketchy/use Email UW: T-Th: 206-543-1044 (fax=3286)|Change last 4 digits of phone to FAX Rosen: (Mullins' Lab) Fridays, and I'm unreachable except by email. = Instructions for joining and leaving this list, remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES, and archives are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: biostatistics careers
>>>>> "RS" == Richard Seymann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: RS> And if I may muddy the waters even more, what is the RS> difference between biostatistics and biometry? Dick Depends on which definition of "biometry" you are using. One definition used to be an older name for what is now biostatistics (and what might again become biometry, according to how some in the field want to rename it again to make it more relevant to measurement and design). That's a nice murky response, which shows how our language is ill-defined. There are other definitions, which have little to do with statistics. best, -tony -- A.J. RossiniRsrch. Asst. Prof. of Biostatistics U. of Washington Biostatistics [EMAIL PROTECTED] FHCRC/SCHARP/HIV Vaccine Trials Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://software.biostat.washington.edu/ -- FHCRC: M-W: 206-667-7025 (fax=4812)|Voicemail is pretty sketchy/use Email UW: T-Th: 206-543-1044 (fax=3286)|Change last 4 digits of phone to FAX Rosen: (Mullins' Lab) Fridays, and I'm unreachable except by email. = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: biostatistics careers
>>>>> "DR" == Dennis Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: DR> At 03:08 PM 11/19/01 +, A.J. Rossini wrote: >> >>>>> "BW" == Bruce Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> writes: >> BW> On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, Stan Brown wrote: >> >> What _is_ "biostatistics", anyway? A student asked me, and I >> >> realized I have only a vague idea. >> >> BW> There was a thread on "biostatistics versus statistics" a BW> couple years ago, I think, but I was unable to find it at BW> google groups. Maybe someone out there saved some of it. >> >> >> But it's much easier than that. Biostatistics is simply >> statistics (design, descriptive, and inferential) applied to >> medical, basic biology, and public health problems. DR> well, one difference in bio stat is a strong emphasis on DR> probability sorts of problems ... Hah! So you think... -- A.J. RossiniRsrch. Asst. Prof. of Biostatistics U. of Washington Biostatistics [EMAIL PROTECTED] FHCRC/SCHARP/HIV Vaccine Trials Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://software.biostat.washington.edu/ -- FHCRC: M-W: 206-667-7025 (fax=4812)|Voicemail is pretty sketchy/use Email UW: T-Th: 206-543-1044 (fax=3286)|Change last 4 digits of phone to FAX Rosen: (Mullins' Lab) Fridays, and I'm unreachable except by email. = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: biostatistics careers
>>>>> "BW" == Bruce Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: BW> On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, Stan Brown wrote: >> What _is_ "biostatistics", anyway? A student asked me, and I >> realized I have only a vague idea. BW> There was a thread on "biostatistics versus statistics" a BW> couple years ago, I think, but I was unable to find it at BW> google groups. Maybe someone out there saved some of it. But it's much easier than that. Biostatistics is simply statistics (design, descriptive, and inferential) applied to medical, basic biology, and public health problems. So while a decent biostatistician need only concern themselves with knowing all of statistics (which of course requires knowledge of most of computer science and mathematics), as well as one or two of the above scientific areas, a truly good one will know most science and study related to medicine (which of course should include biochemistry, economics, clinical trials, etc). I'm only being slightly facetious. I've come across the need to know parts of nearly all of the areas mentioned above in my work, both to communicate with as well as handle data analyses appropriately for clients and colleagues. best, -tony -- A.J. RossiniRsrch. Asst. Prof. of Biostatistics U. of Washington Biostatistics [EMAIL PROTECTED] FHCRC/SCHARP/HIV Vaccine Trials Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://software.biostat.washington.edu/ -- FHCRC: M-W: 206-667-7025 (fax=4812)|Voicemail is pretty sketchy/use Email UW: T-Th: 206-543-1044 (fax=3286)|Change last 4 digits of phone to FAX Rosen: (Mullins' Lab) Fridays, and I'm unreachable except by email. = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Stat pkg for old Mac
There is always XLispStat, and the graphical front-ends, ViSta and ARC. Why pay more when there is perfectly adequate and exceptional software available? best, -tony -- A.J. RossiniRsrch. Asst. Prof. of Biostatistics BlindGlobe Networks (home/default) [EMAIL PROTECTED] UW Biostat/Center for AIDS Research [EMAIL PROTECTED] FHCRC/SCHARP/HIV Vaccine Trials Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] FHCRC: M/Tu: 206-667-7025 (fax=4812) | Voicemail is pretty sketchy CFAR: W/F: 206-731-3647 (fax=3694) | Email is far better than phone UW:Th/F: 206-543-1044 (fax=3286) | Change last 4 digits of phone for fax = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: job issues. stat and computer? (fwd)
>>>>> "BH" == Bob Hayden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: BH> - Forwarded message from d.u. - Hello, I was wondering BH> the job prospects for a master's degree in stat, and whether BH> jobwise it is highly desirable to also do some computer BH> science (e.g., programming languages, data structures etc). BH> I'd appreciate any suggestions. Thank you! BH> - End of forwarded message from d.u. - BH> Many of these people end up as SAS programmers. Lots of BH> experience wtih SAS may be more valuable than abstract BH> computer science. And for those that don't learn SAS, the biotech industry really likes them for playing around with large data sets (the CS/Stat cross is quite useful for genomics/proteonics, and similar genetic-level data handling/analysis...). -- A.J. RossiniRsrch. Asst. Prof. of Biostatistics BlindGlobe Networks (home/default) [EMAIL PROTECTED] UW Biostat/Center for AIDS Research [EMAIL PROTECTED] FHCRC/SCHARP/HIV Vaccine Trials Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] FHCRC: M/Tu: 206-667-7025 (fax=4812) | Voicemail is pretty sketchy CFAR: W/F: 206-731-3647 (fax=3694) | Email is far better than phone UW:Th/F: 206-543-1044 (fax=3286) | Change last 4 digits of phone for fax = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: free stat package
and why not use R or XLispStat/ViSta, which will do everything and more, under multiple OS's, and are free as well? Might as well learn how to program... (what's the old adage, "give a man a statistical analysis, he'll think for a day, give him the ability to program a statistical analysis, he'll work for years"?) best, -tony -- A.J. Rossini Research Assistant Professor of Biostatistics Biostatistics/Univ. of Washington (Th) Box 357232 206-543-1044 (3286=fax) Center for AIDS Research/HMC/UW (M/F) Box 359931 206-731-3647 (3693=fax) VTN/SCHARP/FHCRC (Tu/W) Box 358080 206-667-7025 (4812=fax) rossini@(biostat.washington.edu|u.washington.edu|scharp.org) http://www.biostat.washington.edu/~rossini === This list is open to everyone. Occasionally, less thoughtful people send inappropriate messages. Please DO NOT COMPLAIN TO THE POSTMASTER about these messages because the postmaster has no way of controlling them, and excessive complaints will result in termination of the list. For information about this list, including information about the problem of inappropriate messages and information about how to unsubscribe, please see the web page at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ ===
Re: Help! Survival curve plot (Kaplan-Meier) with absolute numbers - which software?
>>>>> "FEH" == Frank E Harrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: FEH> The survplot function in the public-domain S-Plus library Frank - To nit-pick, the library is not public-domain, but a modified version of the GPL, that you've licensed it under. (I just checked again). So, it's sort of "open-source", to use the latest software licensing buzzwords... If it had been public domain (or if you'd remove the disclaimer), I would've at least evaluated it and possibly ported it to R if it was useful for me (probably likely), instead of considering it (maybe unfairly) a pretty useless piece of software... best, -tony -- A.J. Rossini Research Assistant Professor of Biostatistics Biostatistics/Univ. of Washington (Th) Box 357232 206-543-1044 (3286=fax) Center for AIDS Research/HMC/UW (M/F) Box 359931 206-731-3647 (3693=fax) VTN/SCHARP/FHCRC (Tu/W) Box 358080 206-667-7025 (4812=fax) rossini@(biostat.washington.edu|u.washington.edu|hivnet.fhcrc.org) http://www.biostat.washington.edu/~rossini === This list is open to everyone. Occasionally, less thoughtful people send inappropriate messages. Please DO NOT COMPLAIN TO THE POSTMASTER about these messages because the postmaster has no way of controlling them, and excessive complaints will result in termination of the list. For information about this list, including information about the problem of inappropriate messages and information about how to unsubscribe, please see the web page at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ ===
