RE: Excel Graphics
Graham S wants some advice on using Excel for technical and scientific graphing. Not to be too contrarian, but one option you might consider is stop drawing graphs. Obviously your management does not consider high quality graphs as being worth investing in. This may sound like I am a traitor to the cause of statistics. But a lot of folks (e.g., Ehrenberg and Tufte) recommend that if the number of points displayed in a graph is small, then you may be better off displaying them in a table rather than in a graph. Excel does wonderful tables. You have so much control over how the data is displayed (fonts, colors, background, precision, alignment). With a bit of effort you can make things look very nice and clean and easy to follow. A table would not work well for some things, like illustrating a non-linear trend. But a table is far better than those awful 3D bar charts that everyone uses. Check out this Ehrenberg reference: Ehrenberg, A.S.C. (1981) "The Problem of Numeracy," The American Statistician, 35(2), 67-71. Steve Simon, [EMAIL PROTECTED], Standard Disclaimer. STATS: STeve's Attempt to Teach Statistics. http://www.cmh.edu/stats P.S. Have you investigated getting a site license for some graphics and/or statistics software that limits the number of concurrent users? Sometimes that is not as expensive as you might think. = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Excel Graphics
Shareef Siddeek wrote: > > Then, what is the use of EXCEL? EXCELlent question... Joking apart, it can be a useful tool for preparing a downloaded dataset for loading into a statistics program. -Robert Dawson = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Excel Graphics
Those specific papers referred to in an earlier discussion have addressed errors in Statistics and other add-in (e.g., Solver) calculations in EXCEL. If I remember correct, the errors occur from the 7 th decimal place and may aggravate if repeated calculations (as in simulations) are made. I do not know why Microsoft is shy to fix these problems by hiring Statistical and programming experts. This remark applies to the currently discussed graphic problems as well. I personally like EXCEL to be smart enough to do basic Statistics, linear and non linear model fitting and graphing in the right way. This is because EXCEL is more popular and easy to use. Cheers. Siddeek David Heiser wrote: > - Original Message - > From: "Shareef Siddeek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 12:53 PM > Subject: Re: Excel Graphics > > > Then, what is the use of EXCEL? > > Siddeek > > > Comes as standard boilerplate with Microsoft Office. The package > includes Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Outlook and others depending on > cost. Most computer systems use Windows and Office software. It gets > you up and running. > > The graphics issue is cost. 700 to 8000 dollars for one of these > graphical packages for one user. The more glitz, the higher the cost. > Package is obsolete in a year or two and won't properly work with the > up and coming 64 bit systems. Figure rebuying every year. Package is > obsolete also because better display techniques are developed over > time, bugs get fixed and interfaces get smoothed over. Vendor makes > his $ by overcharging. Software development is expensive, > especially for newly immerging companies. = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
RE: Excel Graphics
Another package that produces nice plain charts in Excel is XLStatistics. A free version can be downloaded from http://www.man.deakin.edu.au/rodneyc/xlstats.htm Rodney ~~ Rodney Carr School of Management Information Systems Deakin University PO Box 423 Warrnambool VIC 3280 Australia email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: + 61 3 5563 3458 mobile: 0417 307 692 fax: + 61 3 5563 3320 www: http://www.man.deakin.edu.au/rodneyc -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2001 5:49 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:Re: Excel Graphics Jon, > The absolute best advice concerning the use of Excel for > graphics (or for statistics for that matter) is: DON'T! > > The _majority_ of graph-types available in Excel should never > be used for any purpose as they produce misleading graphs -- mainly > false third dimensions that can only serve to hide important features > in the graph.) But Excel CAN produce simple scatter plots or bar charts. It is just that the defaults are so horrible. With a lot of tweaking you can make them acceptable. Having said that I do remember an article on the Origin web site which suggested even simple charts in Excel were wrong. My problem is cost. I want to get everyone in my department to have the facility to produce reasonable charts that have a common style. I do all of mine in Statistica (a single copy) but I cannot afford 15 copies simply to produce the occasional scatter plot, or box plot. Nor does anyone have the time to produce everyone elses charts for them. Three Excel addins have come my way, during this search. XLstat, Analyse-IT and Winstat. All produce boxplots, and Winstat seems the most generally useful, but for some reason the Winstat chart defaults are useless for scientific/technical use. None are entirely satisfactory, and I am still looking for the best solution. Cheers, Graham S . = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ = = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Excel Graphics
i think, if i might be allowed to speak for jon, he would say that it is a good SPREADSHEET package ... that was what it was designed for ... add ons to make it also a statistical package ... are a different matter it is sort of like having ms word ... where it has this add on feature of letting you input some numbers into a page ... and then it will crank out some graphs for you ... or some descriptive statistics ... we would have to be a bit careful At 11:53 AM 1/29/01 -0900, Shareef Siddeek wrote: > Then, what is the use of EXCEL? >Siddeek we could ask this in another way ... why do people use excel ... when there are a number of other spreadsheet programs out there ... quattro, etc. i would suspect that over time, people have found excel to be most accurate? useful for doing the kinds of spreadsheet things IT WAS DESIGNED for? easier files to be able to export to or import from other things, etc we might also say ... well, it now is also a stat package ... so that makes it even more popular ... but, the argument that if you have excel, then the stat package add on makes it real cheap ... and since so many have excel ... why not then just make it their stat package too ... ??? you don't do this for the same reason that if you want to do professional measurement analysis, you select something specifically designed for that ... and tested over time ... or why you don't select notepad for doing word processing (though it might be ok for some things) ... you make people know word or something comparable the notion that we should try to have one package do all ... seems silly of course, we have observed in many graduate programs that want students to learn about research ... that we find that many advisors are trying harder and harder to get students into that ONE course that does all ... unfortunately, one course does not do all just like excel ... = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Excel Graphics
if you can use excel to do what you need doing and, it does not lead to any serious (tweaking?) complications fine but, what happens if you want one of your colleagues to do something a little different ... like make a x,y plot ... where you have both male and female data points separately indicated ... ? the graphics are highly limited ... that's the main problem my suggestion is the following: 1. invest in a decent stat package for 1 or 2 colleagues ... who would be willing to make charts and graphs for others now and then ... after all, in minitab for example ... you can save these as jpg files and post to some web location ... 2. you can get all to have access to something like minitab ... by each downloading the 30 day demo ... and if you stagger the time of download ... have someone have a full version spread across the group ... for a fairly long time ... so each understand the basics of the package 3. another possibility would be to have one dedicated machine ... with minitab (for example) on it ... then think about using timbuktu or even netmeeting ... to take over control of the machine from time to time to run some stuff 4. ... finally, if everyone has excel if they can make the excel file ... then the 1/2 people with the full package CAN easily import that xls file and do stuff i guess my view is that there is some better compromise way to handle this ... some middle position that may not get the full package for all (if that is too much money) but ... to still have some have the full package ... and others have access to it from time to time ... At 07:49 PM 1/29/01 +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >Jon, > > The absolute best advice concerning the use of Excel for > > graphics (or for statistics for that matter) is: DON'T! > > > > The _majority_ of graph-types available in Excel should never > > be used for any purpose as they produce misleading graphs -- mainly > > false third dimensions that can only serve to hide important features > > in the graph.) > >But Excel CAN produce simple scatter plots or bar charts. It is just that >the defaults are so horrible. With a lot of tweaking you can make them >acceptable. Having said that I do remember an article on the Origin web >site which suggested even simple charts in Excel were wrong. > >My problem is cost. I want to get everyone in my department to have the >facility to produce reasonable charts that have a common style. I do all >of mine in Statistica (a single copy) but I cannot afford 15 copies >simply to produce the occasional scatter plot, or box plot. Nor does >anyone have the time to produce everyone elses charts for them. > >Three Excel addins have come my way, during this search. XLstat, >Analyse-IT and Winstat. All produce boxplots, and Winstat seems the most >generally useful, but for some reason the Winstat chart defaults are >useless for scientific/technical use. > >None are entirely satisfactory, and I am still looking for the best >solution. > >Cheers, > >Graham S >. > > >= >Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about >the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at > http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ >= _ dennis roberts, educational psychology, penn state university 208 cedar, AC 8148632401, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://roberts.ed.psu.edu/users/droberts/drober~1.htm = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Excel Graphics
Then, what is the use of EXCEL? Siddeek Jon Cryer wrote: > The absolute best advice concerning the use of Excel for > graphics (or for statistics for that matter) is: DON'T! > > The _majority_ of graph-types available in Excel should never > be used for any purpose as they produce misleading graphs -- mainly > false third dimensions that can only serve to hide important features > in the graph.) > > Jon Cryer > > At 02:26 PM 1/27/01 GMT, you wrote: > >Not sure if this is the best place to ask, but can anyone point me > >towards any web sites that provide advice on using Excel for > >technical/scientific graphing. > > > >I am not sure why exactly, but I find the graphs produced by Excel, > >compared to S-Plus or Statistica, to look out of place in a technical > >report. As I know others feel the same way, I was hoping that there > >might be some advice out there on how to improve their appearance. > > > >Many thanks, > > > >Graham S > > > >. > > > > > >= > >Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about > >the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at > > http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ > >= > > > > > > = > Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about > the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at > http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ > = = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Excel Graphics
Jon, > The absolute best advice concerning the use of Excel for > graphics (or for statistics for that matter) is: DON'T! > > The _majority_ of graph-types available in Excel should never > be used for any purpose as they produce misleading graphs -- mainly > false third dimensions that can only serve to hide important features > in the graph.) But Excel CAN produce simple scatter plots or bar charts. It is just that the defaults are so horrible. With a lot of tweaking you can make them acceptable. Having said that I do remember an article on the Origin web site which suggested even simple charts in Excel were wrong. My problem is cost. I want to get everyone in my department to have the facility to produce reasonable charts that have a common style. I do all of mine in Statistica (a single copy) but I cannot afford 15 copies simply to produce the occasional scatter plot, or box plot. Nor does anyone have the time to produce everyone elses charts for them. Three Excel addins have come my way, during this search. XLstat, Analyse-IT and Winstat. All produce boxplots, and Winstat seems the most generally useful, but for some reason the Winstat chart defaults are useless for scientific/technical use. None are entirely satisfactory, and I am still looking for the best solution. Cheers, Graham S . = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Excel Graphics
The absolute best advice concerning the use of Excel for graphics (or for statistics for that matter) is: DON'T! The _majority_ of graph-types available in Excel should never be used for any purpose as they produce misleading graphs -- mainly false third dimensions that can only serve to hide important features in the graph.) Jon Cryer At 02:26 PM 1/27/01 GMT, you wrote: >Not sure if this is the best place to ask, but can anyone point me >towards any web sites that provide advice on using Excel for >technical/scientific graphing. > >I am not sure why exactly, but I find the graphs produced by Excel, >compared to S-Plus or Statistica, to look out of place in a technical >report. As I know others feel the same way, I was hoping that there >might be some advice out there on how to improve their appearance. > >Many thanks, > >Graham S > >. > > >= >Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about >the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at > http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ >= > > = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Excel Graphics
Jay > One piece of advice I received on this topic was: Use DeltaGraph. Even > 4.0 (ca 1997) offers more options, and display control. > Sorry if that isn't exactly what you were looking for The problem, as always is money. Otherwise I agree that something like Deltagraph is the solution. It also seems a shame to waste the power that Excel does have. Thanks, Graham S . = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Re: Excel Graphics
One piece of advice I received on this topic was: Use DeltaGraph. Even 4.0 (ca 1997) offers more options, and display control. Sorry if that isn't exactly what you were looking for Jay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Not sure if this is the best place to ask, but can anyone point me > towards any web sites that provide advice on using Excel for > technical/scientific graphing. > > I am not sure why exactly, but I find the graphs produced by Excel, > compared to S-Plus or Statistica, to look out of place in a technical > report. As I know others feel the same way, I was hoping that there > might be some advice out there on how to improve their appearance. > > Many thanks, > > Graham S > > .. > > > = > Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about > the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at > http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ > = > > > -- Jay Warner Principal Scientist Warner Consulting, Inc. North Green Bay Road Racine, WI 53404-1216 USA Ph: (262) 634-9100 FAX:(262) 681-1133 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web:http://www.a2q.com The A2Q Method (tm) -- What do you want to improve today? = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
Excel Graphics
Not sure if this is the best place to ask, but can anyone point me towards any web sites that provide advice on using Excel for technical/scientific graphing. I am not sure why exactly, but I find the graphs produced by Excel, compared to S-Plus or Statistica, to look out of place in a technical report. As I know others feel the same way, I was hoping that there might be some advice out there on how to improve their appearance. Many thanks, Graham S . = Instructions for joining and leaving this list and remarks about the problem of INAPPROPRIATE MESSAGES are available at http://jse.stat.ncsu.edu/ =
