Re: [Elecraft] VFO A & B tracking?

[Don Wilhelm]

  That is quite normal if you have the VFOs linked.

  A HOLD of the SUB button will LINK/UNLINK the VFOs.
See pages 6, 14, 22, and 37 of the manual.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/10/2010 11:19 PM, Hardy Landskov wrote:
> I just noticed when I turn VFO A knob, VFO B tracks along. I can't think of 
> why that would be. I don't remember if it used to do that or not and looking 
> at the manual did not yield an answer. There again I have wasted a couple of 
> hours tweaking this thing and did not get it fixed.
> I don't think this is normal.
> N7RT
>
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Re: [Elecraft] VFO A & B tracking?

[Dick Dievendorff]

That should be "Unlinked" rather than "Unlined".  It's late...

73 de Dick, K6KR


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Dick Dievendorff
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 8:24 PM
To: 'Hardy Landskov'; Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] VFO A & B tracking?

Your VFOs may be linked.  Try holding the SUB button (to the right of the
VFO A knob and down) until the VFO B display area shows "unlined".

73 de Dick, K6KR

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Hardy Landskov
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 8:19 PM
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] VFO A & B tracking?

I just noticed when I turn VFO A knob, VFO B tracks along. I can't think of
why that would be. I don't remember if it used to do that or not and looking
at the manual did not yield an answer. There again I have wasted a couple of
hours tweaking this thing and did not get it fixed.
I don't think this is normal.
N7RT
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Re: [Elecraft] VFO A & B tracking?

[Dick Dievendorff]

Your VFOs may be linked.  Try holding the SUB button (to the right of the
VFO A knob and down) until the VFO B display area shows "unlined".

73 de Dick, K6KR

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Hardy Landskov
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 8:19 PM
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] VFO A & B tracking?

I just noticed when I turn VFO A knob, VFO B tracks along. I can't think of
why that would be. I don't remember if it used to do that or not and looking
at the manual did not yield an answer. There again I have wasted a couple of
hours tweaking this thing and did not get it fixed.
I don't think this is normal.
N7RT
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[Elecraft] VFO A & B tracking?

[Hardy Landskov]

I just noticed when I turn VFO A knob, VFO B tracks along. I can't think of why 
that would be. I don't remember if it used to do that or not and looking at the 
manual did not yield an answer. There again I have wasted a couple of hours 
tweaking this thing and did not get it fixed.
I don't think this is normal.
N7RT
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[Elecraft] SSB net control needed

[Phil Shepard]

The weekly Elecraft SSB net is scheduled for this Sunday (12/12/10 at 1800z on 
14.314 MHz). Unfortunately, I will not be able to do the net control duties 
this week. So, we need to find a substitute NCS. Is there anyone who could pick 
it up this week? It isn't hard, and it's a great way to meet other K2/K3 users. 
If you would like to give it a go, please send me an email. Thank you. 

73,
Phil, NS7P
ph...@riousa.com

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[Elecraft] K3 manual

[Sam Bridges]

Hello Guys:
I think the manual for the K3 is excellant. It is concise,explicit and 
-gasp-has an index. I must say that my CW skills have not improved in this last 
month since I got my new K3 (#4770). I have spent most of my time fiddling with 
those great buttons and knobs. I have listen to what this knob will do and 
listening to what that button will do. I have had alot of fun listening to this 
great radio. Yet my Omni 6+ NB on 80m is unbeatable so far. But I may not have 
fiddle enough yet. So more fun waits!
Tnxs Wayne, Eric,et.al. for a fine experience. 73 de KJ4ZM Sam
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[Elecraft] alignment of k2

[Gary Simmonds]

Im looking for someone who could align my k2 I live near Toronto ontario  
Canada if you can please email Gary ve3gss @simmondsga...@gmail.com thx in 
advance
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Re: [Elecraft] Apple MacBook Pro Audio for PSK-31 with K2?

[Alan D. Wilcox]

Thanks for all the replies!

To answer questions: The MacBook Pro is the 13" with the faster cpu and 
larger drive. New production, just got it several weeks ago. There is 
only ONE audio connection: the required 1/8" plug is same as regular 
stereo plug but has tip and TWO rings.


I cobbled up a Y-cable last evening, and I'm getting audio into the MBP. 
No way to hear the audio on the MBP tho; looks like I'll need to do a 
"line-out" jack on the K2 for constant volume to the MBP while I adjust 
the K2 volume to listening level for me.


The MBP-->K2 mic direct connection seems to work with VOX and I can 
watch ALC when tx.


Doesn't look like I've got any ground loops, even with the MBP charger 
plugged in.


The Griffin iMic looks like a good way to get separate in and out. As I 
understand it, when it's active, the internal mic and speakers are 
disabled. Yes?
OTOH, the iMic would give me isolation. I'm somewhat concerned about my 
direct connections into the MBP. I don't know what circuit I'm working 
into. (Like a black box, but it's white with an apple on it.)


At this point, I'll put an extra line-out jack on the K2. Maybe get the 
iMic ...


Thanks again,
Alan

Alan D. Wilcox, W3DVX
570-321-1516
http://WilcoxEngineering.com
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/28062
Williamsport, PA 17701


On 12/9/10 9:27 PM, Alan D. Wilcox wrote:

Hello,

The MacBook Pro has a single 1/8" audio connection for both mic in and 
external-speaker output. Unfortunately, that disables the internal 
speakers, preventing their use for monitoring. Also, the single 
"special" plug needs a homebrew Y-cable to get the input and output on 
separate connectors.


Before I over-complicate what should be a simple interface to the K2, 
does anyone have a success story with the MacBook Pro?


Cheers, Alan

Alan D. Wilcox, W3DVX
570-321-1516
http://WilcoxEngineering.com
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/28062
Williamsport, PA 17701


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 question

[Mike]

I put a macro in M4 that switches to 53 watts PC053; Another in M1 to go back 
to 100 
watts. PC100;

73, Mike NF4L

On 12/10/2010 4:45 PM, bill wade, sr. wrote:
> I have a K3 100 watt transceiver. The amp is a SG500. I use the "power
> set per band " from the config menu to store drive settings
> independently for each band.
>
> Is there any way to set up the K3 so that one can switch on the fly from
> barefoot operation to the amp without going through the necessary manual
> steps?
>
> Bill Wade, Ai4PF
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[Elecraft] FS: Auto Tuner

[Phil LaMarche]

For portable operation of long wires and vertical antenna's..

 

FS: SG-230 SGC Smart Tuner 

.
I have a like new condition SG-230 automatic tuner. Works perfectly and
comes with a long extension cable. Original box and manual. Originally sold
for 495.00.
.
310.00 shipped
.
Phil W9DVM

 

 

Philip LaMarche

 

LaMarche Enterprises, Inc

  p...@lamarcheenterprises.com

  www.LaMarcheEnterprises.com 

 

727-944-3226

727-937-8834 Fax

727-510-5038 Cell 

 

  www.w9dvm.com

 

K3 #1605

 

CCA 98-00827

CRA 1701

W9DVM

 

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Re: [Elecraft] Parting shot

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

 > even Wayne refers to it as a "reference", not a manual

I've never used any "owner's manual" as anything other than a
"reference."  Read it once to learn how to hook up/install a
device and get an overview (K3 manual: satisfies that purpose)
and from that point on manuals are a reference for specific
functions/features.

 > The manual also is organized so poorly (and it is clumsy enough
 > to find stuff in it that you don't often use) that people need
 > to resort to keyword searches through the pdf version to find
 > their answer.

Of necessity, I support a wide variety of other manufacturer's
equipment.  I have as many of their manuals in PDF format as I
can get and I *always* use keyword searches (unless the manual
has been scanned) when I need to find the answer to a customer
question.  99.9% of the time, I will find the answer *in the
manual* even though I am not (and never have been) a user of
that model or even "brand" of transceiver.  (Yes, it would be
much easier to say "that is function of your transceiver, read
your owner's manual.)

The K3 manual is no more difficult to use, or less complete, than
those or other manufacturers.  Printed manuals have tables of
contents and/or indexes to allow the reader to locate desired
information quickly ... the keyword search function is the pdf
equivalent of (and more convenient than) an index.

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 12/10/2010 1:54 AM, David Gilbert wrote:
>
> Sorry, Joe, but that "entitlement" comment is just garbage.  This thread
> originated with a comment from somebody that the K3 manual does such a
> poor job of being a manual (even Wayne refers to it as a "reference",
> not a manual) that it most likely costs Elecraft sales ... and that by
> definition refers to people who don't have the K3 sitting in front of
> them.  The manual also is organized so poorly (and it is clumsy enough
> to find stuff in it that you don't often use) that people need to resort
> to keyword searches through the pdf version to find their answer.  That
> certainly doesn't help dispel the perception out there that the K3 is an
> overly complex rig to learn.
>
> The complaints about the K3 manual aren't coming from people who are too
> lazy to search a library for the book they need.  It's coming from
> people who are tired of finding the books scattered all over the floor.
>
> Dave   AB7E
>
>
>
>> On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 11:37 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV   wrote:
>>>
>>> While schools (and books, etc.) can certainly teach *facts*, I know
>>> of no book or school in which students set quietly in rank and file
>>> and learn skills without practice.  Even in mathematics and science
>>> courses the teaching method requires *practice" to develop skills -
>>> experimentation if you would call it that.
>>>
>>> No student worth a plugged nickel pays tuition to University and
>>> expects to graduate the next day with the accumulated knowledge
>>> and skills of the entire faculty without attending a day of classes
>>> or spending hundreds of hours "in the laboratory."  Yet it is this
>>> sense of entitlement I see in the "I want a manual that does ... "
>>> refrain.
>>>
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Re: [Elecraft] Parting shot

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

Guy,

 > I'm not arguing this on behalf of the gimme, gimme negative post
 > crowd.  There will always be some of those around.  But as I stated
 > earlier, this thread has not been dominated by those voices.

Even if this thread has not been dominated by those voices, the
calls for "how to" chapters in manuals, "You Tube" videos, Webinars,
master classes at various hamfests, etc. are prime examples of the
"I don't want to learn it myself attitude.  Those are the ones who
don't want to try various settings of NR or NB to see what works in
their particular environment, they don't want to remember (or read)
to select Line In instead of Mic+Line to adjust "soundcard" levels,
they don't understand the use of RF Gain, Preamp or ATT ... or that
cross band split is not possible by transmitting on VFO B even though
the manual documents the controls and limitations.

 > I remember one woman tester who became extremely angry.  She was so
 > angry she was shaking and had tears in her eyes.  When asked she
 > pointed to a couple of items in the instructions and on the screen.
 > She said, "I work hard and I do my job, and this thing is making me
 > feel stupid. I can't figure it out."  A little bit of conversation and
 > it became clear how the doc and the screen could confuse a user.  Both
 > screen and doc were revised based on her input.

I'm not saying that poorly organized or confusing manuals should not
be improved.  I am reacting strongly to those who want "how to"
manuals that describe every possible operating or failure mode and
detail "what to do."  I've done documentation and training long
enough to understand that there are limits to what can be provided
to the user on a practical economic basis and like W0YK, I consider
the K3 manual with possibly a few minor tweaks more than satisfactory.
The overhead costs of "how to" manuals, You Tube videos, webinars,
etc. are something that don't belong in the cost of the radio.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 12/10/2010 12:34 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
> I'm not arguing this on behalf of the gimme, gimme negative post
> crowd.  There will always be some of those around.  But as I stated
> earlier, this thread has not been dominated by those voices.
>
> When I was testing new GUI's and task setups we always brought in a
> random sample of future users to be, and carefully observed them
> attempting the revised clerical tasks with the new GUI interface.  We
> did the same for certain kinds of documentation.
>
> I remember one woman tester who became extremely angry.  She was so
> angry she was shaking and had tears in her eyes.  When asked she
> pointed to a couple of items in the instructions and on the screen.
> She said, "I work hard and I do my job, and this thing is making me
> feel stupid. I can't figure it out."  A little bit of conversation and
> it became clear how the doc and the screen could confuse a user.  Both
> screen and doc were revised based on her input.
>
> She's good people.  Years later she was a well-respected, industrious
> third-line manager. THAT'S who we're writing doc for.  Calling
> everyone "lazy" who reads and does not understand is really harsh.
>
> While at SAS, to be fair, there were calls from some customers that I
> would just as soon put out a hit contract on. But the bottom line was
> that SAS' pro-customer take on customer support was a vital element in
> growing SAS into a 3 billion dollar a year international company.  And
> yes, in some cases they DID send a CE out to do it for them, but these
> were very, very expensive turnkey systems that HAD to perform.  This
> technical stuff we do is just plain hard to learn, and when some
> improvement to doc CAN be made, it SHOULD be made.  It's good for the
> business.  It's good for the business when they figure it out faster
> and better with our stuff and doc than with their stuff and doc.
>
> 73, Guy.
>
> On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 11:37 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:
>>
>>
>>> While it IS true that I have 52 years of slogging and suffering
>>> through electronic misconceptions and outright falsehoods enroute to
>>> what pitifully little I know, and can definitely say that I came by a
>>> lot (most?) of what I know the hard way, we have schools because we
>>> value the idea that it's BETTER that something, which caused ME
>>> half-a-life's grief to discern, can be taught to a fifth grader out of
>>> the box.
>>
>> While schools (and books, etc.) can certainly teach *facts*, I know
>> of no book or school in which students set quietly in rank and file
>> and learn skills without practice.  Even in mathematics and science
>> courses the teaching method requires *practice" to develop skills -
>> experimentation if you would call it that.
>>
>> No student worth a plugged nickel pays tuition to University and
>> expects to graduate the next day with the accumulated knowledge
>> and skills of the entire faculty without attending a day of classes
>> or spending hundreds of hours "in the laborato

Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Ameritron RCS-12

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

Easy enough to get the Ameritron controller working with the K3,
just use the Yaesu FT-1000MP settings in the Ameritron manual
(page 5 and 7) but substitute the equivalent outputs from the K3
ACC jack for those of the Yaesu "Band Data" (Linear) jack.

Unfortunately, I do not believe that the RCS-12 supports the serial
data control of the Rat Pack.  RCS-12 is designed to support three
line BCD (e.g., RCS-10) or 1 of 10 (e.g., RCS-8, microHAM 10 Switch,
etc.) but no serial data (see page 4 & 5 of the RCS-12 manual).

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 12/9/2010 4:26 PM, Mike wrote:
> Is anyone using an Ameritron RCS-12 antenna switch controller? If so, would 
> you share
> the details? FWIW, my switch is a WX0B RatPack.
>
> 73, Mike NF4L
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Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

Chen,

 > Imagine that there are three parameters, the current two, plus a
 > "upper threshold," after which the slope becomes "15"  (i.e. flat at
 > S0 to THR, then constant "SLOPE" until "upper threshold" and then flat
 > from there until the front end starts to smoke),.

The AGC is already a three piece curve.  Below the AGC threshold (-117 
to -99 dBm depending on THR) the audio:RF response is 1:1.  Above the
threshold the audio:RF ratio varies between 0.4 dB/dB to 0.05 dB/dB 
(according to K8OZA's measurements) until the HAGC activates between -43 
and -48 dBm at which time the output becomes flat (no further increase).

What this discussion appears to be asking for is the option to raise 
the level of first inflection point (AGC threshold) from approximately
-99 dBm with THR=08 to somewhere in the mid -70 dBm range without using
the attenuator and losing the weak signals.  That is, nobody wants to
give up the ability to receive a -128 dBm signal by using a 10 or 20 dB
of attenuation when the receiver is easily capable of detecting a -130
dBm signal without use of a preamplifier but they do want reasonable
"level cues" to use in separating signals close to the same frequency.

What is needed is to broaden out the steps in THR from as little as 1
dB per step to something like a uniform 6 dB per step or adding more
steps (e.g., 16 choices at 3 dB/step so that the threshold can be set
over a -117 to -70 dBm range rather than the current limited -117 to -99 
dBm range (K8OZA measurements).

Since HAGC does not activate until the RF input reaches -48 to -43 dBm,
one must assume that the IF amplifier, 2nd Mixer and ADC are capable
of functioning properly well beyond the levels generated at -70 dBm
input and raising the threshold even if it means using a flatter slope
would not cause serious performance issues.

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 12/9/2010 2:05 PM, Kok Chen wrote:
> On Dec 9, 2010, at 12/99:17 AM, k...@aol.com wrote:
>
>> But, since AGC works on every signal in the  passband, if there are
>> two signals - one S9 and the other S3 appearing at the  same time,
>> the S3 signal will disappear because the AGC is knocking down the
>> S9  signal to an S3 level and thereby also reducing the S3 signal to
>> the  noise.
>
> My impression from reading what has transpired is that some people are
> more concerned that when the S9 signal is *not* there, that the S3
> appears to be too loud?
>
> We know that the S9+ signals have to be kept from saturating the A/D
> converter (or even kept in check so the large signal doesn't do
> naughty things to the IF amplifier and the SA612 second mixer -- I
> don't know which of these three is the wimpiest in the chain).  So
> some AGC is neccessary.
>
> Perhaps people will be happier if the AGC response is not as linear
> (in the log-log scale) as the one in the K3 once you have past the AGC
> threshold.  I.e., perhaps people would care less if an S7 signal sound
> as loud as an S9 signal, but they do want the S3 signal to sound less
> loud as the S7 signal.  A non-linear transfer function like that is
> certainly "easy" to implement (as long as I don't have to be the one
> to implement it :-), but will this make more people happy?  Who knows?
>
> Basically, this is what I am simple-mindedly visualizing: currently,
> there are only two parameters to control a piecewise linear curve.
>
> Imagine that there are three parameters, the current two, plus a
> "upper threshold," after which the slope becomes "15"  (i.e. flat at
> S0 to THR, then constant "SLOPE" until "upper threshold" and then flat
> from there until the front end starts to smoke),.  You then smooth out
> the piecewise linear curve using a pair of homotopy between those
> three partitions.  You will end up with (1) a smooth curve instead of
> the piecewise linear one currently, and (2) a way to say "I care more
> about distinguishing an S3 from an S9 signal than I do an S7 and S9
> signal."
>
> Notice that if a simple homotopy is applied to smooth the AGC transfer
> function, and even if "upper threshold" is set to S7, you will still
> hear a difference between S7 and S9 -- just much less than between S3
> and S9.  Also, if the AGC curve is no longer piecewise linear you will
> still hear the S3 signal even if the lower threshold is set to an S3.
>
> I still think the only way to satisfy "everybody" is if everyone would
> homebrew their own rig, or sell an "open" commercial rig where you are
> allowed to make any mods -- hardware, firmware, or software.  See
> first option :-) :-).
>
> 73
> Chen, W7AY
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Parting shot

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

 > 5)  A serious documentation methodology breakthrough certainly IS a
 > patentable offering.

What you are seeking falls in the category of "expert systems."  Too
many of the posters here are simply demanding documentation that tells
them what to do in every possible situation - no matter how unlikely
the situation or whether the operation/usage is even within the design
parameters of the K3.

In essence, those who are complaining about the documentation are
demanding that the learning curve be made flat.  They believe they
are *owed* the same operating experience as others have gained
through decades/years/months of experience.  This is but one more
facet of the "fairness" mantra that has become so prevalent in
western societies.

I, for one, would be upset at underwriting the overhead of developing
and implementing these expert systems when they only serve those who
think the world "owes them" and refuse to accept responsibility for
their own results.

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 12/9/2010 12:04 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
> I'm right there with you.
>
> I find the schematics to be of more use for the fine elements of the
> HARDWARE aspects of the K3.  But the real meat of the K3 is in the
> firmware, which is not going to be published in any way to allow, for
> example, to tweak the APF code to suit ourselves.  So for those of us
> who have always done our own prying in the hardware and maintained a
> degree of independence back in the old world, SMD, high degrees of
> functional integration on SMDs, and Software Derived Radio have made
> us dependent on the radio manufacturers to a degree with which we are
> getting INcreasingly UNcomfortable.
>
> It's kind of like having a fine topographical/photographic map of
> everywhere around Area 51, with of course fences and security at the
> boundary, heavy penalties for trespassing, and also of course, having
> Area 51 itself blanked out on the map.  It's regretfully, necessarily
> a non-negotiable boundary between insatiable public curiosity, and an
> armed need for government security.
>
> And, while I know Eric is trying to shut down this long, long, long,
> long multi-paralleled thread for procedural reasons and has been
> fairly forgiving of it, I hope Elecraft has noticed some things about
> THIS thread that sets it starkly apart from the likes of "true north"
> and other famous endless, everybody-weighs-in thread.
>
> 1) It is NOT being advanced by a NARROW slice of the user base (as in
> CW contesters or 2M digital moonbounce operators).
>
> 2) The usual futzglop of it's-never-good-enough'ers does NOT dominate
> the cast of posters.
>
> 3) ALL aspects of the documentation have been questioned, not focused
> on one thing.
>
> 4) Those with professional documentation training or involvement are
> questioning the state of affairs of documentation in general, and
> regretfully see the K3 in the same state as documentation in general.
>
> It seems to be what the Klingon Ruler called the "undiscovered
> country" in one of the Star Trek movies.
>
> Despite all kinds of good faith effort by Elecraft and their
> most-excellent volunteer cast, there is clearly an unmet need that
> current state of documentation art does not meet.  Sort of like radio
> front ends before TenTec, huh?   Oh, yeah...
>
> 5)  A serious documentation methodology breakthrough certainly IS a
> patentable offering.
>
> 73, and I'll try to pay attention to Eric's end-of-thread.
>
> Guy.
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Mel Farrer  wrote:
>> FWIW, the user manual is fine.  What you are describing, is a service manual.
>>
>> Mel,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> From: eric manning
>> To: Jim Garland<4cx2...@muohio.edu>
>> Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net; "Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft"
>> 
>> Sent: Thu, December 9, 2010 7:42:08 AM
>> Subject: [Elecraft] Parting shot
>>
>>
>> Precisely!!!
>> I'm trying to diagnose a K2 fault at the moment. I'm largely acting as a 
>> robot
>> directed
>> by Don Wilhelm, thank goodness for Don&Gary.
>>
>>   I would be
>> even more at sea, out to lunch,  if I were trying to cope with a fault in the
>> far more complex K3.
>> I've read the K3 manual carefully [fb user manual!] and I still don't have a
>> clue as to circuit level function, sufficient to infer fault from 
>> malfunction.
>>
>> [I did my PhD thesis on electronic fault diagnosis&co-wrote the first
>> book on the subject . . .]
>>
>> ERIC
>> VA7DZ
>> [PhD in EE, F.IEEE, FEIC, P.Eng., etc etc]
>>
>> 
>>
>> I'd like to see a K3 service manual, or at least a comprehensive circuit
>> description. Without some explanation, the downloaded schematics are pretty
>> worthless to somebody trying to understand the radio. In particular, the
>> published K3 block diagram is an exercise in obscurity. In my opinion, it's
>> nearly impossible for someone even to follow the receive or transmit signal
>> path.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Jim W8ZR
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> This mes

Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

 > Very interested findings -  Fred has a graph of AGC action with AGC
 > THR=8 labeled figure 3 on http://www.ke7x.com/home/the-k3-agc-story  :

That graph is nearly identical to the information that Jack Smith,
K8OZA originally presented two years ago:
   http://cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_agc_and_s-meter.htm

The following table comes from Jack's work:

 > From the data, my estimate of the threshold settings is:
 >
 >AGC THRCorresponding Input
 >   Signal Level
 >  2  -117   dBm
 >  3  -110.5 dBm
 >  4  -105   dBm
 >  5  -103.5 dBm
 >  6  -102.5 dBm
 >  7  -101   dBm
 >  8   -99   dBm

The K2 AGC curve is also presented for comparison.  K2 does not
have a well defined threshold like that of the K3 but some AGC
action (the curve departs from 1:1) begins at around -85 dBm and settles 
at slope similar to the K3 SLP=09 or SLP=10 (about 1.5 dB
audio change for 10 dB RF change) at an RF level around -70 dBm.

As a second point of comparison, Sherwood's Receiver Performance Table
shows the FT-1000D has an AGC threshold nearly 10 dB higher than the
K3 *with the FT-1000D preamplifier enabled*.  Since the FT-1000D
preamp is at least 10 dB, that represents an overall 20 dB higher
ACG threshold (around S8/S9 with preamp off and S6/S7 with preamp on).

It seems clear that the K3 would have much better "pile-up performance"
if range of AGC THR were expanded by as much as 20 dB either by
increasing the "step" (5/6 differ by only 1 dB) or by increasing
the number of options.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 12/9/2010 9:07 AM, Barry N1EU wrote:
>
>
> Cady, Fred wrote:
>>
>> I made some measurements and have posted the results for your perusal
>> and information at www.ke7x.com.
>>
> Very interested findings -  Fred has a graph of AGC action with AGC THR=8
> labeled figure 3 on http://www.ke7x.com/home/the-k3-agc-story  :
>
> So I ask this group: is it possible to raise the AGC Threshold from s3 to s6
> or s9 by simply reducing the RF Gain control?  Can anybody estimate what
> settings of the RF Gain control would accomplish that?
>
> Barry N1EU
>
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Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

Fred,

For more on the K3 AGC system, please see the excellent study
by Jack Smith, K8OZA at:
   http://cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_agc_and_s-meter.htm

Careful study of Jack's tables would tend to support your belief that
the K3 could benefit from a higher threshold setting.  Comparing the
behavior of the K2 to that of the K3 as shown in Jack's charts, shows
support for a threshold of some 20 dB higher than the present -100 dBm
(~S4) that K8OZA measured for THR=8.   That would place the threshold
around S8 (-79 dBm) similar to that shown by the K2.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 12/8/2010 8:01 PM, Cady, Fred wrote:
> After Team Vertical got back from our latest adventure in C6land, I was
> curious about how the AGC was working (or not). Kenny, C6ATA came away
> from the event really preferring his venerable TS850. Both Walt, C6ATR
> and I, C6AKX found turning AGC off was a way to increase the "depth" of
> the pileup and continue to rapidly pull signals out.
> I made some measurements and have posted the results for your perusal
> and information at www.ke7x.com.
>
> 73,
> Fred
> Ke7x
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[Elecraft] K3 question

[bill wade, sr.]

I have a K3 100 watt transceiver. The amp is a SG500. I use the "power 
set per band " from the config menu to store drive settings 
independently for each band.

Is there any way to set up the K3 so that one can switch on the fly from 
barefoot operation to the amp without going through the necessary manual 
steps?

Bill Wade, Ai4PF
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[Elecraft] Test message de AE6RR

[Craig - AE6RR]

Please excuse the test message, I just signed up for the reflector.

Craig, AE6RR

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[Elecraft] ...editing PDF format manuals...

[John Ragle]

If you think you would like to edit your local copies of equipment 
manuals in PDF format, either to include errata directly or to put in 
comments (annotations) about how to use features, contact me know off 
reflector. Alternatively, Google "PDF Editors."

John Ragle -- W1ZI
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Re: [Elecraft] Documentation [Thread Closed]

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

This thread and related ones were closed earlier -yesterday- to prevent list
overload. Please let i take a rest. If it continues we'll have to turn on the 
list moderate mode, something we rarely do.

73, Eric  WA6HHQ
Elecraft list moderator



On 12/10/2010 10:54 AM, george fritkin wrote:
> No. No. What Elecraft should do is publish all of its source including the
> programing notes and use that as the manual. And then offer the "NIFTY MANUAL"
> as another part of the documentation you get with the radio.  That should make
> guys at both ends of the documentation spectrum happy.
>
> Personally, I find the radio so intuitive you do not need the manual 
> especially
> if you built it as the so called kit.  The only time I read the manual is 
> when I
> retire to my "executive office" in the house.
>
> Let them design more excellent products, we will muddle through the
> documentation.
>
> George, W6GF
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> From: "Edward Dickinson, III"
> To:
> Sent: Fri, December 10, 2010 10:41:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Documentation
>
> Hi Gary,
>
> Amen.
>
> I don't look to Elecraft for matters such as Education and Tutorials.
>
>
> 73,
> Dick - KA5KKT
>
> -Original Message-
> --
>
> Wouldn't it be a wonderful thing if someone stepped up to project-manage a
> supplemental re-write of the K3 documentation!  Handled properly, it need
> not reflect negatively on Elecraft and I would have to guess that it would
> represent a first within the amateur radio community.
>
> 73,
>  Gary, VE1RGB
>
>
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>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Parting shot [Thread closed]

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

This thread and related ones were closed earlier -yesterday- to prevent list
overload. there are way too many posts on the topic.

Please let it take a rest. If it continues we'll have to turn on the list 
'moderate' mode, something we rarely do.

73, Eric  WA6HHQ
Elecraft list moderator

===

On 12/10/2010 11:37 AM, Phil LaMarche wrote:
> Suggestion..RE-write a chapter of the manual and send to Wayne.  He
> might want you to do the rest.  Just an idea because of your back ground.
>
> Phil
>
> Philip LaMarche
>
> LaMarche Enterprises, Inc
> p...@lamarcheenterprises.com
> www.LaMarcheEnterprises.com
>
> 727-944-3226
> 727-937-8834 Fax
> 727-510-5038 Cell
>
> www.w9dvm.com
>
> K3 #1605
>
> CCA 98-00827
> CRA 1701
> W9DVM
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Edward R. Cole
> Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 2:24 PM
> To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Parting shot
>
>
> Good point.  In fact, in my early work history as a tech writer for Hughes
> Aircraft, we had a minimum of three people involved in editing or reviewing
> text.  I would write it, some one would review and edit.  I would review
> that and correct anything I thought was needed.  It went to a third reviewer
> and back to me and then the two others would again review and so it would
> go.  Why it would take 3-weeks to write a page.
>
> I was an engineering writer, so I was in charge of content (technical
> accuracy).  But one of the best experiences was a week long seminar put on
> by our Phd english expert on how to write documentation.  It followed me
> thru the rest of my career, where the ability to write for comprehension
> mattered more than most engineers would admit.
>
> Yes, I did technical work, but often I was asked to explain (quarterly
> reviews) or write procedures for the un-technical personnel.  An example I
> often love to tell is when I was a college student taking FORTRAN programing
> class (1965).  The instructor was a complete disorganized idiot.  That is
> not how you teach programming (a logical subject).  Fortunately, the text
> book was great.  I put together a 30-page outline of the course for teaching
> myself.  Once that was known in the class I had several request for copies.
> I like to think I helped get several thru that class.  A case of the
> recently learned teaching better than the "staff".  BTW the "prof"
> started class by taking his old battered briefcase and dumping the contents
> onto his desk, sorting thru a heap papers for his class notes...ugh.  But
> the perspective of the non-expert who has recently learned a topic having
> better delivery of instruction than the "expert" is good one to realize.
> Same approach of doing user evaluations.
>
> Some times targeted documentation is better than "does all" type.  A user
> manual; A reference manual.; An installation manual; and a service manual.
> But that takes human resources to generate.  BTW I had a Navy tech once tell
> me that all they used from our tech manuals were the diagrams! ;-)
>
> I think the K3 handbook is technically pretty good, but maybe could use some
> rearranging.  Topics are segmented throughout the document.  A good index is
> vital to any good manual.  K3 index is pretty good, but wish I didn't have
> to use it so much.
>
> ---snipped
> There is this other thing we continually forget, anyone technically
> qualified to design something is hugely UNqualified to write the doc for it.
> Only edit after the writing for factuality.  Doc on something needs to be
> written by somebody who has freshly learned how to use that something
> starting from a position of ignorance.  The most important thing in doc
> writing is understanding NOT UNDERSTANDING.
> The engineering staff is usually completely opposite, they've never NOT
> understood how that something works.  They MADE the d**n thing.
>
>
>
> 73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
> ==
> BP40IQ   500 KHz - 10-GHz   www.kl7uw.com
> EME: 144-1.2kw, 432-100w, 1296-testing*, 3400-winter?
> DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubus...@hotmail.com
> ==
> *temp not in service
> __
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Home

Re: [Elecraft] Apple MacBook Pro Audio for PSK-31 with K2?

[Kok Chen]

On Dec 10, 2010, at 12/1011:32 AM, Paul Wilton wrote:

> Just about any old USB soundcard will work with a MacBook Pro - I  
> use an old Creative USB Soundblaster that I picked up second hand.   
> Noting that you can plug in an iPhone headset, I did experiment  
> using an iPod Classic 4 pin 3.5mm to 3 x phono connectors but  
> decided it was too work to sort out since the "input" would be at  
> microphone level and would need a capacitor to remove the microphone  
> bias voltage.  Going with the USB soundcard was far easier.  You can  
> pick up some no-brand "dongle" versions for less than $10 on ebay.

Many of the MacBook Pro models have an integrated "analog" audio and  
"digital" S/PDIF built into the common 1/8" phone jack.

Either a plain wired 1/8" plug or a S/PDIF 1/8" plug will plug into  
that jack.

For example, you can connect the fiber optical output from an Icom  
7800 directly to the MacBook Pro as long as whatever software that you  
use can accept that one fixed sampling rate from the Icom.  Perfect  
galvanic isolation.  No RFI, no ground loops, no drivers.

I had responded privately to the person who started this thread by  
recommending the cheap and simple Griffin Technology iMic (not the  
greatest noise floor, but probably sufficient for his intended  
purpose), and the SignaLink USB if he wants hard keyed PTT.

73
Chen, W7AY

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Re: [Elecraft] Parting shot

[Phil LaMarche]

Suggestion..RE-write a chapter of the manual and send to Wayne.  He
might want you to do the rest.  Just an idea because of your back ground.

Phil

Philip LaMarche
 
LaMarche Enterprises, Inc
p...@lamarcheenterprises.com
www.LaMarcheEnterprises.com 
 
727-944-3226
727-937-8834 Fax
727-510-5038 Cell 
 
www.w9dvm.com
 
K3 #1605
 
CCA 98-00827
CRA 1701
W9DVM
 

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Edward R. Cole
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 2:24 PM
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Parting shot


Good point.  In fact, in my early work history as a tech writer for Hughes
Aircraft, we had a minimum of three people involved in editing or reviewing
text.  I would write it, some one would review and edit.  I would review
that and correct anything I thought was needed.  It went to a third reviewer
and back to me and then the two others would again review and so it would
go.  Why it would take 3-weeks to write a page.

I was an engineering writer, so I was in charge of content (technical
accuracy).  But one of the best experiences was a week long seminar put on
by our Phd english expert on how to write documentation.  It followed me
thru the rest of my career, where the ability to write for comprehension
mattered more than most engineers would admit.

Yes, I did technical work, but often I was asked to explain (quarterly
reviews) or write procedures for the un-technical personnel.  An example I
often love to tell is when I was a college student taking FORTRAN programing
class (1965).  The instructor was a complete disorganized idiot.  That is
not how you teach programming (a logical subject).  Fortunately, the text
book was great.  I put together a 30-page outline of the course for teaching
myself.  Once that was known in the class I had several request for copies.
I like to think I helped get several thru that class.  A case of the
recently learned teaching better than the "staff".  BTW the "prof" 
started class by taking his old battered briefcase and dumping the contents
onto his desk, sorting thru a heap papers for his class notes...ugh.  But
the perspective of the non-expert who has recently learned a topic having
better delivery of instruction than the "expert" is good one to realize.
Same approach of doing user evaluations.

Some times targeted documentation is better than "does all" type.  A user
manual; A reference manual.; An installation manual; and a service manual.
But that takes human resources to generate.  BTW I had a Navy tech once tell
me that all they used from our tech manuals were the diagrams! ;-)

I think the K3 handbook is technically pretty good, but maybe could use some
rearranging.  Topics are segmented throughout the document.  A good index is
vital to any good manual.  K3 index is pretty good, but wish I didn't have
to use it so much.

---snipped
There is this other thing we continually forget, anyone technically
qualified to design something is hugely UNqualified to write the doc for it.
Only edit after the writing for factuality.  Doc on something needs to be
written by somebody who has freshly learned how to use that something
starting from a position of ignorance.  The most important thing in doc
writing is understanding NOT UNDERSTANDING.
The engineering staff is usually completely opposite, they've never NOT
understood how that something works.  They MADE the d**n thing.



73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
==
BP40IQ   500 KHz - 10-GHz   www.kl7uw.com
EME: 144-1.2kw, 432-100w, 1296-testing*, 3400-winter?
DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubus...@hotmail.com
==
*temp not in service
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Re: [Elecraft] Apple MacBook Pro Audio for PSK-31 with K2?

[Paul Wilton]

Just about any old USB soundcard will work with a MacBook Pro - I use an old 
Creative USB Soundblaster that I picked up second hand.  Noting that you can 
plug in an iPhone headset, I did experiment using an iPod Classic 4 pin 3.5mm 
to 3 x phono connectors but decided it was too work to sort out since the 
"input" would be at microphone level and would need a capacitor to remove the 
microphone bias voltage.  Going with the USB soundcard was far easier.  You can 
pick up some no-brand "dongle" versions for less than $10 on ebay.

73
Paul
M1CNK



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Re: [Elecraft] Parting shot

[Edward R. Cole]

Good point.  In fact, in my early work history as a tech writer for 
Hughes Aircraft, we had a minimum of three people involved in editing 
or reviewing  text.  I would write it, some one would review and 
edit.  I would review that and correct anything I thought was 
needed.  It went to a third reviewer and back to me and then the two 
others would again review and so it would go.  Why it would take 
3-weeks to write a page.

I was an engineering writer, so I was in charge of content (technical 
accuracy).  But one of the best experiences was a week long seminar 
put on by our Phd english expert on how to write documentation.  It 
followed me thru the rest of my career, where the ability to write 
for comprehension mattered more than most engineers would admit.

Yes, I did technical work, but often I was asked to explain 
(quarterly reviews) or write procedures for the un-technical 
personnel.  An example I often love to tell is when I was a college 
student taking FORTRAN programing class (1965).  The instructor was a 
complete disorganized idiot.  That is not how you teach programming 
(a logical subject).  Fortunately, the text book was great.  I put 
together a 30-page outline of the course for teaching myself.  Once 
that was known in the class I had several request for copies.  I like 
to think I helped get several thru that class.  A case of the 
recently learned teaching better than the "staff".  BTW the "prof" 
started class by taking his old battered briefcase and dumping the 
contents onto his desk, sorting thru a heap papers for his class 
notes...ugh.  But the perspective of the non-expert who has recently 
learned a topic having better delivery of instruction than the 
"expert" is good one to realize.  Same approach of doing user evaluations.

Some times targeted documentation is better than "does all" type.  A 
user manual; A reference manual.; An installation manual; and a 
service manual.  But that takes human resources to generate.  BTW I 
had a Navy tech once tell me that all they used from our tech manuals 
were the diagrams! ;-)

I think the K3 handbook is technically pretty good, but maybe could 
use some rearranging.  Topics are segmented throughout the 
document.  A good index is vital to any good manual.  K3 index is 
pretty good, but wish I didn't have to use it so much.

---snipped
There is this other thing we continually forget, anyone technically
qualified to design something is hugely UNqualified to write the doc
for it.  Only edit after the writing for factuality.  Doc on something
needs to be written by somebody who has freshly learned how to use
that something starting from a position of ignorance.  The most
important thing in doc writing is understanding NOT UNDERSTANDING.
The engineering staff is usually completely opposite, they've never
NOT understood how that something works.  They MADE the d**n thing.



73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45
==
BP40IQ   500 KHz - 10-GHz   www.kl7uw.com
EME: 144-1.2kw, 432-100w, 1296-testing*, 3400-winter?
DUBUS Magazine USA Rep dubus...@hotmail.com
==
*temp not in service 
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Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story

[Larry Phipps]

  I have been talking with Dick Dievendorf about changes to the K3 
Utility and LP-Bridge to allow most of the utility functionality to work 
(not including firmware revisions, however). This should benefit other 
utilities as well. The problem is finding time for changes and testing.

Larry N8LP



On 12/10/2010 12:00 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:
> Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 03:39:04 -0800 (PST)
> From: Barry N1EU
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story
> To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Message-ID:<1291981144656-5822793.p...@n2.nabble.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
>
> David Gilbert wrote:
>> >  
>> >  Nice program, but it doesn't run with LP-Bridge if I want to have more
>> >  than one application (N1MM, CW Skimmer, K3_EZ, etc)  interfacing with my
>> >  K3.  It is fine for simplifying the changing of AGC settings, but not on
>> >  the fly during a contest.
>> >  
> I strongly agree.  There's a great need for some simple utilities for the K3
> that will run with LP-Bridge or other CAT port sharing schemes:  AGC/EQ
> management, expanded rig display, subrx control (avoid BSET), etc
>
> Barry N1EU

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Re: [Elecraft] Documentation

[Andrew Faber]

There is, or was, a K3 wiki. This would seem to be an ideal vehicle for the 
desired user manual.  Win-Test has a wiki.
 73, andy, ae6y
- Original Message - 
From: "gary bartlett" 
To: "'Elecraft Reflector'" 
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Documentation


>I have also been one of those who has bugged Wayne about what I thought was
> a less than adequate operating manual for the K3 (not realizing, of 
> course,
> that he was the author).
>
> Speaking as an EE who has been a ham for more than 50 years, my background
> is systems integration in the aerospace industry and try as I might, I
> cannot keep up with the kind of technology that is contained within the
> chassis of the K3.  The manual has been written at too high a level for 
> me.
> It is adequate for me to operate the K3 as an appliance but I yearn for
> something with a bit more technical and operating detail than that.
>
> Wayne's response was something to the effect that perhaps someone would
> volunteer from the user's group to lead a project to add the necessary
> detail.  Given the unreasonable level of effort that Elecraft would have 
> to
> contribute to make us all happy with their documentation and given the
> awesome amount of talent represented by the K3 user community, that seemed
> to me to be a reasonable thought.
>
> That would represent a huge effort but the subject matter experts are all
> here and the technical writers are all here and I look at any perceived
> shortcomings in Elecraft documentation as an opportunity for all of us 
> proud
> K3 owners and Elecraft supporters to give the company back a little
> something in return for what they have done for us.
>
> Wouldn't it be a wonderful thing if someone stepped up to project-manage a
> supplemental re-write of the K3 documentation!  Handled properly, it need
> not reflect negatively on Elecraft and I would have to guess that it would
> represent a first within the amateur radio community.
>
> 73,
> Gary, VE1RGB
>
> -Original Message-
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Edward Dickinson, 
> III
> Sent: December 10, 2010 1:27 PM
> To: Elecraft Reflector
> Subject: [Elecraft] Documentation
>
>
> The names and email addresses of most of those contributing to the
> documentation discussion are known.  It shouldn't be difficult to draw up 
> a
> list of those interested in offering their thoughts on improvements.  It
> seems some have the time to make extended commentary on the matter.  Other
> contributors might be solicited from the mail list.
>
>
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] Documentation

[george fritkin]

No. No. What Elecraft should do is publish all of its source including the 
programing notes and use that as the manual. And then offer the "NIFTY MANUAL" 
as another part of the documentation you get with the radio.  That should make 
guys at both ends of the documentation spectrum happy.

Personally, I find the radio so intuitive you do not need the manual especially 
if you built it as the so called kit.  The only time I read the manual is when 
I 
retire to my "executive office" in the house.

Let them design more excellent products, we will muddle through the 
documentation.

George, W6GF 










From: "Edward Dickinson, III" 
To:
Sent: Fri, December 10, 2010 10:41:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Documentation

Hi Gary,

Amen.  

I don't look to Elecraft for matters such as Education and Tutorials.


73,
Dick - KA5KKT

-Original Message-
--

Wouldn't it be a wonderful thing if someone stepped up to project-manage a
supplemental re-write of the K3 documentation!  Handled properly, it need
not reflect negatively on Elecraft and I would have to guess that it would
represent a first within the amateur radio community.

73,
Gary, VE1RGB


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Re: [Elecraft] Documentation

[John E. Reiser]

I thought Eric Ended all these threads related to documentation a couple 
days ago.  Personally, I find them irritating.

John, W2GW


- Original Message - 
From: "Edward Dickinson, III" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Documentation


> Hi Gary,
>
> Amen.
>
> I don't look to Elecraft for matters such as Education and Tutorials.
>
>
> 73,
> Dick - KA5KKT
>
> -Original Message-
> --
>
> Wouldn't it be a wonderful thing if someone stepped up to project-manage a
> supplemental re-write of the K3 documentation!  Handled properly, it need
> not reflect negatively on Elecraft and I would have to guess that it would
> represent a first within the amateur radio community.
>
> 73,
> Gary, VE1RGB
>
>
> __
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> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> 


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Re: [Elecraft] Documentation

[Edward Dickinson, III]

Hi Gary,

Amen.  

I don't look to Elecraft for matters such as Education and Tutorials.


73,
Dick - KA5KKT

-Original Message-
--

Wouldn't it be a wonderful thing if someone stepped up to project-manage a
supplemental re-write of the K3 documentation!  Handled properly, it need
not reflect negatively on Elecraft and I would have to guess that it would
represent a first within the amateur radio community.

73,
Gary, VE1RGB


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Re: [Elecraft] Documentation

[gary bartlett]

I have also been one of those who has bugged Wayne about what I thought was
a less than adequate operating manual for the K3 (not realizing, of course,
that he was the author).  

Speaking as an EE who has been a ham for more than 50 years, my background
is systems integration in the aerospace industry and try as I might, I
cannot keep up with the kind of technology that is contained within the
chassis of the K3.  The manual has been written at too high a level for me.
It is adequate for me to operate the K3 as an appliance but I yearn for
something with a bit more technical and operating detail than that.

Wayne's response was something to the effect that perhaps someone would
volunteer from the user's group to lead a project to add the necessary
detail.  Given the unreasonable level of effort that Elecraft would have to
contribute to make us all happy with their documentation and given the
awesome amount of talent represented by the K3 user community, that seemed
to me to be a reasonable thought.

That would represent a huge effort but the subject matter experts are all
here and the technical writers are all here and I look at any perceived
shortcomings in Elecraft documentation as an opportunity for all of us proud
K3 owners and Elecraft supporters to give the company back a little
something in return for what they have done for us.  

Wouldn't it be a wonderful thing if someone stepped up to project-manage a
supplemental re-write of the K3 documentation!  Handled properly, it need
not reflect negatively on Elecraft and I would have to guess that it would
represent a first within the amateur radio community.

73,
Gary, VE1RGB

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Edward Dickinson, III
Sent: December 10, 2010 1:27 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: [Elecraft] Documentation


The names and email addresses of most of those contributing to the
documentation discussion are known.  It shouldn't be difficult to draw up a
list of those interested in offering their thoughts on improvements.  It
seems some have the time to make extended commentary on the matter.  Other
contributors might be solicited from the mail list.


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[Elecraft] Documentation

[Edward Dickinson, III]

With all the communications here on the list, there are a number of ideas on
how to improve perceived shortcomings of the K3 (other?) documentation.

Elecraft is busy with product and firmware development and just plain
running the business and maintaining profitability.  Perhaps they can't
score an A+ as measured by all users of their products in every aspect of
their endeavor.

The names and email addresses of most of those contributing to the
documentation discussion are known.  It shouldn't be difficult to draw up a
list of those interested in offering their thoughts on improvements.  It
seems some have the time to make extended commentary on the matter.  Other
contributors might be solicited from the mail list.

Some might take the opportunity to step forward and lead an effort via
direct email among the interested people to turn the energy of the
discussion of what's wrong and the better ways of documentation into
actually implementing them.

Beginning with the existing K3 or other Owner's Manual, overhauling it as
deemed necessary and allowing for editorial oversight by Elecraft might move
the matter further towards realization of a 'better manual' than the open
mailing list discussions and calling upon Elecraft to implement them.


73,
Dick - KA5KKT

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[Elecraft] Settings

[Edward Dickinson, III]

It's always good to know the context in which information is offered.

When discussing various settings for the K3 and other, it is useful if they
begin with a mention of MODE.  Other conditions that apply for the settings
mentioned and discussed will also be valuable if mentioned up front.


73,
Dick - KA5KKT




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Re: [Elecraft] Parting shot

[Guy Olinger K2AV]

Well, I can't ever think about doc without thinking about good decent
hardworking people who got tripped up by doc. I keep them in my mind.
They deserve it.  It's not a "who's at fault,"  "who do we blame"
thing.  I find that people really like it when they figure it out by
themselves (not thinking about the agony of creating the doc they got,
of course).  It's good business when it happens like that.  Of course
the "neggies" will never be satisfied, and invent astounding reasons
to diss anything put out there, but one must skim those only for valid
comment (after all, pickles come in vinegar) and above all ignore
their tone of voice.

There is this other thing we continually forget, anyone technically
qualified to design something is hugely UNqualified to write the doc
for it.  Only edit after the writing for factuality.  Doc on something
needs to be written by somebody who has freshly learned how to use
that something starting from a position of ignorance.  The most
important thing in doc writing is understanding NOT UNDERSTANDING.
The engineering staff is usually completely opposite, they've never
NOT understood how that something works.  They MADE the d**n thing.

The universal, entire state of documentation across the world is still
largely trapped in paper.  A method based on web access and drill down
(not .pdf of paper doc) is something that is starting to emerge as
companies carefully work new methods with customers.  I know that
there is a lot of SAS success that will not scale down, but a petulant
refusal to explore new modes that are proving very successful
(webinars, youtube's, etc) will just have the same effect as
Yakencom's five or six year refusal to consider front end improvement:
one's own enterprise discovers the validity of new "stuff" when that
new "stuff" has taken away a bunch of customers one has taken for
granted.

People CAN do business that way, but then again, 85 percent of all
startup businesses fail, and no guarantees of a safe landing for the
15 percent do get their wheels up.  Someone walks away with your
customers, you go out of business, not even any ripples in the water
when you sink.

I have been on the RX end of calls from angry customers and listened
to a good deal of abuse.  In such a job one must develop a thick skin
or find alternate employment.  No job is worth ulcers, and not
everyone can work for SAS technical support.  I'd have to say that
most people are emotionally unqualified for that kind of work, and
that is NOT a negative slam.  It's more like saying that only a few
people are qualified to throw 95 MPH fastballs.  It takes a TALENT to
do tech support and stay on an even keel -- I'm not sure that can be
learned if it wasn't already in there somewhere.

The good tech support reps I knew at SAS **believed in** their
customers, and that kept the smile in their voice in spite of the
occasional abuse (and it WAS abuse).  It was a good day when they
could turn a snarl on the customer end of the phone to a smile.

I DO understand that a small enterprise may find some kinds of advance
just simply beyond resources.  But if said enterprise ALREADY has the
talent that can keep up a complicated web page, the foundational work
for new forms of documentation is already in place, already paid for.

73, Guy.

On Fri, Dec 10, 2010 at 10:39 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:
>
> Guy,
>
>> I'm not arguing this on behalf of the gimme, gimme negative post
>> crowd.  There will always be some of those around.  But as I stated
>> earlier, this thread has not been dominated by those voices.
>
> Even if this thread has not been dominated by those voices, the
> calls for "how to" chapters in manuals, "You Tube" videos, Webinars,
> master classes at various hamfests, etc. are prime examples of the
> "I don't want to learn it myself attitude.  Those are the ones who
> don't want to try various settings of NR or NB to see what works in
> their particular environment, they don't want to remember (or read)
> to select Line In instead of Mic+Line to adjust "soundcard" levels,
> they don't understand the use of RF Gain, Preamp or ATT ... or that
> cross band split is not possible by transmitting on VFO B even though
> the manual documents the controls and limitations.
>
>> I remember one woman tester who became extremely angry.  She was so
>> angry she was shaking and had tears in her eyes.  When asked she
>> pointed to a couple of items in the instructions and on the screen.
>> She said, "I work hard and I do my job, and this thing is making me
>> feel stupid. I can't figure it out."  A little bit of conversation and
>> it became clear how the doc and the screen could confuse a user.  Both
>> screen and doc were revised based on her input.
>
> I'm not saying that poorly organized or confusing manuals should not
> be improved.  I am reacting strongly to those who want "how to"
> manuals that describe every possible operating or failure mode and
> detail "what to do."  I've done documentation and

Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Ameritron RCS-12

[Mike]

Thanks for the info, Joe.

I got a note from Bob, W50V at Array Solutions that it will work by setting the 
1 of 
8 option.

Trying to put together my wish list :-)

73, Mike

On 12/9/2010 4:55 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>
> Easy enough to get the Ameritron controller working with the K3,
> just use the Yaesu FT-1000MP settings in the Ameritron manual
> (page 5 and 7) but substitute the equivalent outputs from the K3
> ACC jack for those of the Yaesu "Band Data" (Linear) jack.
>
> Unfortunately, I do not believe that the RCS-12 supports the serial
> data control of the Rat Pack.  RCS-12 is designed to support three
> line BCD (e.g., RCS-10) or 1 of 10 (e.g., RCS-8, microHAM 10 Switch,
> etc.) but no serial data (see page 4 & 5 of the RCS-12 manual).
>
> 73,
>
>... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 12/9/2010 4:26 PM, Mike wrote:
>> Is anyone using an Ameritron RCS-12 antenna switch controller? If so, would 
>> you share
>> the details? FWIW, my switch is a WX0B RatPack.
>>
>> 73, Mike NF4L
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>


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Re: [Elecraft] Parting shot

[Jim Brown]

On 12/9/2010 11:34 PM, Ed Muns wrote:
>   What's right or wrong about the K3 manual is largely personal
> preference.  Some people want a training manual on radio usability.  Others
> know how radios work and simply need to know the specific K3 details.

I think most K3 users want to know

1) What functions, adjustments, and settings the radio has

2)  where to find controls for those functions, adjustments and settings

3) the nature of specialized adjustments (like AGC) that are available 
and how those adjustments affect how the radio works in a given application

4) A well organized table listing functions, adjustments, and settings, 
and where to find them, both in the manual and on the radio

IMO, the primary shortcoming of Elecraft documentation is that it is 
organized by "where the controls are" (the menus), rather than the 
function itself.  This shortcoming could be overcome without a major 
rewrite, simply by adding a GOOD index.  As an experienced K3 user, I'm 
often answering questions about "how find a control" that should be 
obvious but isn't. The second most asked question is, "why is the radio 
doing something I don't expect?", which often happens when the user has 
unintentionally operated a control that set the rig in a different mode 
(like TX TEST).   For example, NI6T, a VERY experienced operator and 
retired EE, called me to ask, "how in hell do I get this radio in split 
mode so I can call a DX station?"  Yes, it's easy, but the manual sure 
doesn't help.

The other major shortcoming of the documentation is that it fails to 
tell you things you need to know about the details of how something 
works. For example, that if the rig is in VOX mode, breathing into the 
mic will stop DVR playback.  This is CRITICAL information, yet you don't 
learn it until you buy a DVR, plug it into the radio, and try to use it 
during a contest, at which time you find it is useless if you want to 
use VOX.

73, Jim K9YC
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[Elecraft] Update, re K3 loss of RX sensitivity

[Jim Garland]

A few days ago I posted a request for help with loss of sensitivity on my
K3's main and sub-receiver.  The problem was quickly identified by Van,
W1WCG as a known issue - failure of  PIN diode D5 on the KXV3 board.  D5 is
a pinhead-size 3-terminal surface mount device (actually two diodes in one
package) that routes signals to the main and sub-receivers during receive.
Failure of the diode is caused by electrostatic discharge (from
thunderstorms) or a strong RF field from a nearby transmitter (which was the
cause of my failure.)

 

It is possible to replace D5 either by sending the KXV5 board back to
Elecraft, or simply by replacing the diode in one's workshop, which is what
I did. The Elecraft part number is  E560047. Replacement diodes are also
available from Digikey (p/n 568-1932-1-ND) and Mouser p/n
(771-BAP64-04W-T/R), and the manufacturer's part number is BAP64-04W. The
cost is only $0.54 in small quantities, and it is advisable to buy a few
spares.

 

The PIN diodes in this device are rated at 100V reverse breakdown. Since
failures of these diodes are a known problem, it is better to replace them
with a more robust substitute. Fortunately diodes  having identical
electrical specifications are available at the same price, but with a 175V
breakdown rating. For these, the part numbers are Digikey: p/n
568-1931-1-ND, Mouser: p/n 771-BAP64-04-T/R, Manufacturer: p/n BAP64-04.

 

There is a small problem with ugrading D5 to the higher voltage version: the
package sizes are slightly different. The 100V diode has package SOT323,
whereas the 175V diode has package SOT23, which has marginally wider pin
spacing. Fortunately, there is enough overlap between the pins of the larger
device and the solder pads on the KXV3 PCB to ensure a reliable solder
contact. However the magin of error for alignment is reduced, and so if you
want to substitute the more robust diode, you must use particular care in
making the substitution.

 

Replacing SMT devices requires a steady hand and good eyesight. Although,
replacing D5 is not difficult, I don't recommend it unless you are
comfortable working with SMT components.

 

I also recommend that Elecraft  specify the larger PIN diode in any future
revision of the KXV3 board in order to increase reliability.

73,

Jim Garland W8ZR

 

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[Elecraft] [K3] 4.22 Firmware

[David Robertson]

Don and everyone.
The latest firmware release,(4.22) has DSP 2.70 included, not 2.71.

73
Dave KD1NA



>The latest final firmware release (4MCU 4.22/DSP 2.71 should have fixed that, 
>and is now at release level - 
>at least the firmware release notes indicate that it was fixed.
>If it does not cure your particular situation, please report the 
>specifics (relevant settings etc.) so it can be analyzed.



>73,
>Don W3FPR



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Re: [Elecraft] Documentation and Personal Experience

[Tommy Alderman]

[Coming from a 'young salt' who has 59 years devoted to amateur radio and
the electronics industry - and still learning new things. I saw a blonde
yesterday --- sorry, wrong subject!]

Great piece Jim. Really enjoyed it!

Unfortunately you seemed to have missed one important change, a change that
completely negates your and my understanding of how things should work. I
think it is true that at the turn of the century, things changed. The term
'gimmie' became more dominant to the USA folks than the term 'work'.

73,
Tom - W4BQF


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of JAMES ROGERS
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 6:43 AM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: [Elecraft] Documentation and Personal Experience

This comes from an "old salt" with a lot of years (57) devoted to  
amateur radio and still learning new things.

1) Everyones environment is different. Different noise sources, a big  
high power station a block away, rain static that will be gone  
tomorrow... just different.
2) You have a right to expect a manual to describe the "tools" offered  
in such a manner that you can by trial optimize your "system" for your  
environment.
3) If there are terms you are unfamiliar with in the manual, then  
there is this reflector, there is wikipedia, there is the ARRL, tons  
of resources awaiting your expenditure of effort on your behalf.
4) Realize that each problem you solve via your effort, is valuable.  
You have learned something about the "tools" you used. You have  
valuable information that you can acquire from memory later on to use  
when the environment changes. I have long kept spiral notebooks where  
I record information about RFI, option setups, the effectiveness of  
particular tools etc.
5) Recognize that the learning curve never ever goes away. What works  
for me might get you a leg up, but very likely is just that, a  
starting point. There is nothing that compares with the grey matter  
between your ears and the effort you expend on your behalf.
6) Face the fact that there are us old salts who are more than willing  
to "pontificate" on any subject, but you must realize, we also have  
feet of clay. Our opinions are rarely objective and tend to be very  
subjective, in other words we frequently miss it.
7) If there were a majic formula to allow you to just click a button  
and have instantaneous perfection in the resolution of a problem it  
would not be applicable to Joe down the block. So we need to keep the  
"tools" flexible, adjustable, variable. You and I work out the  
formula  for the best combination of tools available that best suits  
our needs.
8) Finally, give your brain a chance. I have a friend that is a world  
class CW op. (I am so envious!) I was explaining to him all of the  
filters, noise reduction etc. as he sat down to use my K3. His first  
act was to switch to the widest filter, no DUAL PB, or APF and start  
busting pileups. I could discern nothing from the jumble of signals  
eminating from the K3, but Jerry, well he was in "hog heaven". He was  
selecting the signal he wanted to hear with a far better filter than  
Wayne and Eric can supply, The human mind and the five senses. And  
that comes with experience. I am still working on that.

What a wonderful hobby we enjoy. Challenging, Educational, Rewarding.

73s JIM ROGERS
w4...@bellsouth.net
http://web.me.com/jimrogers_w4atk




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[Elecraft] Documentation and Personal Experience

[JAMES ROGERS]

This comes from an "old salt" with a lot of years (57) devoted to  
amateur radio and still learning new things.

1) Everyones environment is different. Different noise sources, a big  
high power station a block away, rain static that will be gone  
tomorrow... just different.
2) You have a right to expect a manual to describe the "tools" offered  
in such a manner that you can by trial optimize your "system" for your  
environment.
3) If there are terms you are unfamiliar with in the manual, then  
there is this reflector, there is wikipedia, there is the ARRL, tons  
of resources awaiting your expenditure of effort on your behalf.
4) Realize that each problem you solve via your effort, is valuable.  
You have learned something about the "tools" you used. You have  
valuable information that you can acquire from memory later on to use  
when the environment changes. I have long kept spiral notebooks where  
I record information about RFI, option setups, the effectiveness of  
particular tools etc.
5) Recognize that the learning curve never ever goes away. What works  
for me might get you a leg up, but very likely is just that, a  
starting point. There is nothing that compares with the grey matter  
between your ears and the effort you expend on your behalf.
6) Face the fact that there are us old salts who are more than willing  
to "pontificate" on any subject, but you must realize, we also have  
feet of clay. Our opinions are rarely objective and tend to be very  
subjective, in other words we frequently miss it.
7) If there were a majic formula to allow you to just click a button  
and have instantaneous perfection in the resolution of a problem it  
would not be applicable to Joe down the block. So we need to keep the  
"tools" flexible, adjustable, variable. You and I work out the  
formula  for the best combination of tools available that best suits  
our needs.
8) Finally, give your brain a chance. I have a friend that is a world  
class CW op. (I am so envious!) I was explaining to him all of the  
filters, noise reduction etc. as he sat down to use my K3. His first  
act was to switch to the widest filter, no DUAL PB, or APF and start  
busting pileups. I could discern nothing from the jumble of signals  
eminating from the K3, but Jerry, well he was in "hog heaven". He was  
selecting the signal he wanted to hear with a far better filter than  
Wayne and Eric can supply, The human mind and the five senses. And  
that comes with experience. I am still working on that.

What a wonderful hobby we enjoy. Challenging, Educational, Rewarding.

73s JIM ROGERS
w4...@bellsouth.net
http://web.me.com/jimrogers_w4atk




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Re: [Elecraft] An AGC story

[Barry N1EU]

David Gilbert wrote:
> 
> Nice program, but it doesn't run with LP-Bridge if I want to have more 
> than one application (N1MM, CW Skimmer, K3_EZ, etc)  interfacing with my 
> K3.  It is fine for simplifying the changing of AGC settings, but not on 
> the fly during a contest.
> 
I strongly agree.  There's a great need for some simple utilities for the K3
that will run with LP-Bridge or other CAT port sharing schemes:  AGC/EQ
management, expanded rig display, subrx control (avoid BSET), etc

Barry N1EU

-- 
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/An-AGC-story-tp5817486p5822793.html
Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] Digital voice recorderfor

[Doug Turnbull]

Would it be possible to allow an option where two of the memories might be 
combined to give a 20 second period with only one button being pressed to play 
back.   I am fortunate here to have 15 second memory and so it is not a problem 
for me.   The K3 is much better than my other rig with built in memory in which 
two of the memories are only 5 seconds long for phone recording.   Whatever the 
length we will always want more but fifteen seconds does seem to be very 
adequate while perhaps ten seconds is tight.

  73 Doug EI2CN

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Johnny Siu
Sent: 10 December 2010 02:36
To: Andrew Faber; k6...@foothill.net; Elecraft Reflector
Subject: [Elecraft] Digital voice recorderfor

Hello Gentleman,

If possible, it is always convenient to have the ability to record longer 
message say 20-30 secconds in one of the M1 - M4.  Perhaps, Elecraft may wish 
to search for newer components to upgrade the existing KDVR3.

Icom and Yaesu radio or even the MFJ Voice Keyer can record a much longer 
message in at least one of the memories.

Of course, I have no knowledge of the cost of production for a new KDVR3 
with the ability to record longer messages.  If the cost increase in only 
marginal, this feasibility in message length will be an operation convenience 
to 
operator and hence better marketability of KDVR3.

In the firmware level, I don't know whether it is possible for the operator to 
re-allocate the recording time among the M1-M4 and AF recording.  For example, 
M1-max 30 sec, M2-max 20 sec, M3 to M4 - max 10 sec.  The remaining recording 
time will be left for AF recording which will then be shorten to less than the 
current 90 seconds.

The latest version of KDVR3 only gives 10 sec per M1-M4 which is too short.  
It is not quite enough to record a proper standard CQ calling such as 'cq cq cq 
vr2xmc vr2xmc vr2xmc (phonetics) calling and standing by'


 cheers, 


Johnny VR2XMC 



- 郵件原件 
寄件人﹕ Andrew Faber 
收件人﹕ k6...@foothill.net; Elecraft Reflector 
傳送日期﹕ 2010/12/10 (五) 9:23:28 AM
主題： Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Re: Digital voice recorderfor

Fred,
  In CQPWIN, I did work out a way to measure the precise length of each 
message so you can have accurate repeat intervals for each message, even if 
they are of differing lengths.  If any logging software types are curious, 
I'll be happy to share the approach taken.
  73,andy, ae6y
- Original Message - 
From: "Fred Jensen" 
To: "Elecraft Reflector" 
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Re: Digital voice recorderfor


> Yep.  I did it in ARRL SS Phone with N1MM.  You just have to set a
> repeat interval long enough for the CQ plus your desired listening time.
>  N1MM doesn't know anything about the DVK, it just sends the Mx tap
> emulation command, so it has no idea when your CQ is finished.  I think
> this is true for most loggers.
>
> 73,
>
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the 2011 Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2011
> - www.cqp.org
>
> On 12/9/2010 9:33 AM, K5WA wrote:
>
>> If this is in a contest, could you use the contesting software to trigger
>> the repeated CQs?  From your comment, this would bypass the REPEAT DVR
>> function and allow the VFO B display, right?  I have not tried it but 
>> that
>> is how I would attempt it if I was setting up for a contest.
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Re: [Elecraft] Digital voice recorderfor

[vr2xmc]

Yes, in fact, what I am doing now for the 10 sec only message is "CQ CQ CQ 
vr2xmc vr2xmc ( phonetics) "

Sent from my  iPhone 4

"David Ferrington, M0XDF"  於 2010年12月10日 下午4:33 寫道：

> Can I suggest the 'and standing by' be dropped then, I always feel it's kind 
> of superflious! By calling CQ, people just assuming you are standing by for a 
> response, otherwise why would you have called CQ?
> If you feel the need for something to indicate the end of the CQ call, how 
> about QSX (I am listening for) or QRV (I am ready).
> Then your message would be:
>> 'cq cq cq vr2xmc vr2xmc vr2xmc (phonetics) QSX'
> 
> 73 de M0XDF, K3 #174, P3 #108
> -- 
> The lame man who keeps the right road outstrips the runner who takes a wrong 
> one. The more active and swift the latter is, the further he will go astray.
> -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) 
> 
> On 10 Dec 2010, at 02:35, Johnny Siu wrote:
> 
>> Hello Gentleman,
>> 
>> If possible, it is always convenient to have the ability to record longer 
>> message say 20-30 secconds in one of the M1 - M4.  Perhaps, Elecraft may 
>> wish 
>> to search for newer components to upgrade the existing KDVR3.
>> 
>> Icom and Yaesu radio or even the MFJ Voice Keyer can record a much longer 
>> message in at least one of the memories.
>> 
>> Of course, I have no knowledge of the cost of production for a new KDVR3 
>> with the ability to record longer messages.  If the cost increase in only 
>> marginal, this feasibility in message length will be an operation 
>> convenience to 
>> operator and hence better marketability of KDVR3.
>> 
>> In the firmware level, I don't know whether it is possible for the operator 
>> to 
>> re-allocate the recording time among the M1-M4 and AF recording.  For 
>> example, 
>> M1-max 30 sec, M2-max 20 sec, M3 to M4 - max 10 sec.  The remaining 
>> recording 
>> time will be left for AF recording which will then be shorten to less than 
>> the 
>> current 90 seconds.
>> 
>> The latest version of KDVR3 only gives 10 sec per M1-M4 which is too short.  
>> It is not quite enough to record a proper standard CQ calling such as 'cq cq 
>> cq 
>> vr2xmc vr2xmc vr2xmc (phonetics) calling and standing by'
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Digital voice recorderfor

[David Ferrington, M0XDF]

Can I suggest the 'and standing by' be dropped then, I always feel it's kind of 
superflious! By calling CQ, people just assuming you are standing by for a 
response, otherwise why would you have called CQ?
If you feel the need for something to indicate the end of the CQ call, how 
about QSX (I am listening for) or QRV (I am ready).
Then your message would be:
> 'cq cq cq vr2xmc vr2xmc vr2xmc (phonetics) QSX'

73 de M0XDF, K3 #174, P3 #108
-- 
The lame man who keeps the right road outstrips the runner who takes a wrong 
one. The more active and swift the latter is, the further he will go astray.
-Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) 

On 10 Dec 2010, at 02:35, Johnny Siu wrote:

> Hello Gentleman,
> 
> If possible, it is always convenient to have the ability to record longer 
> message say 20-30 secconds in one of the M1 - M4.  Perhaps, Elecraft may wish 
> to search for newer components to upgrade the existing KDVR3.
> 
> Icom and Yaesu radio or even the MFJ Voice Keyer can record a much longer 
> message in at least one of the memories.
> 
> Of course, I have no knowledge of the cost of production for a new KDVR3 
> with the ability to record longer messages.  If the cost increase in only 
> marginal, this feasibility in message length will be an operation convenience 
> to 
> operator and hence better marketability of KDVR3.
> 
> In the firmware level, I don't know whether it is possible for the operator 
> to 
> re-allocate the recording time among the M1-M4 and AF recording.  For 
> example, 
> M1-max 30 sec, M2-max 20 sec, M3 to M4 - max 10 sec.  The remaining recording 
> time will be left for AF recording which will then be shorten to less than 
> the 
> current 90 seconds.
> 
> The latest version of KDVR3 only gives 10 sec per M1-M4 which is too short.  
> It is not quite enough to record a proper standard CQ calling such as 'cq cq 
> cq 
> vr2xmc vr2xmc vr2xmc (phonetics) calling and standing by'

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