Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Tokyo Hy-Power HL-1.2KFX amp interfacing (to ALC or not to ALC?)

2016-03-30 Thread Edward R Cole 

Read: http://www.comportco.com/~w5alt/cw/cwindex.php?pg=5
"CW Bandwidth" by W5ALT

seems everyone in this debate has some valid points.  I found this by 
searching on "CW bandwidth".


73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
dubus...@gmail.com

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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Tokyo Hy-Power HL-1.2KFX amp interfacing (to ALC or not to ALC?)

2016-03-30 Thread Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft 

Thread has been ended.

Eric
Moderator
/elecraft.com/

On 3/30/2016 9:01 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

Guy has it exactly right.

73, Jim K9YC

On Wed,3/30/2016 8:18 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

If the rise and fall data curves used for "keying" vary their "sharpness"
according to speed, then the description bandwidth increases by speed
certainly does apply. But if not, the bandwidth is governed by the pulse
generated by the rise and fall data, which could be the exact same from 1
wpm to 40 wpm.

We are so easily diverted into our lifelong, unconscious, and utterly
habitual analog thinking (note that I certainly do not give myself a free
pass here).


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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Tokyo Hy-Power HL-1.2KFX amp interfacing (to ALC or not to ALC?)

2016-03-30 Thread Jim Brown 

Guy has it exactly right.

73, Jim K9YC

On Wed,3/30/2016 8:18 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

If the rise and fall data curves used for "keying" vary their "sharpness"
according to speed, then the description bandwidth increases by speed
certainly does apply. But if not, the bandwidth is governed by the pulse
generated by the rise and fall data, which could be the exact same from 1
wpm to 40 wpm.

We are so easily diverted into our lifelong, unconscious, and utterly
habitual analog thinking (note that I certainly do not give myself a free
pass here).


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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Tokyo Hy-Power HL-1.2KFX amp interfacing (to ALC or not to ALC?)

2016-03-30 Thread Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft 
Let's end this thread at this time in the interest of relieving other readers 
from overload.


If you feel compelled to continue the CW b/w discussion, please take it to 
private email.


73,

Eric
/elecraft.com/

On 3/30/2016 8:18 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:

One could discourse all day on what "proper" is in this context without
ever a precise consensus among educated gentlemen. At some point of "ugly"
we would all agree that anything that sounds like that is improper.

When the only stateful levels were strictly on and off, and the rise and
fall transition time amplitude curves were set by a resistor and a
capacitor, one could make some simplifications in the discussion.

Today, often, as in the K3, the rise and fall times and shapes of CW are
DATA which goes DIRECTLY to RF via a DAC. For these the nature of the rise
and fall curve is not governed by a charge/discharge time of analog
components, but rather by whatever function generated the waveshape data,
which is stored, *read* as needed and never generated real time. In many
cases it is far more accurate to say that the rise and fall of a baud is
INTRODUCED, rather than the signal is keyed.

If the rise and fall data curves used for "keying" vary their "sharpness"
according to speed, then the description bandwidth increases by speed
certainly does apply. But if not, the bandwidth is governed by the pulse
generated by the rise and fall data, which could be the exact same from 1
wpm to 40 wpm.

We are so easily diverted into our lifelong, unconscious, and utterly
habitual analog thinking (note that I certainly do not give myself a free
pass here).

I was just looking at the P3 display of some traditional BC band stations
around here. A 30 over 9 station at 1490 kHz fills up 1480 to 1500. Using
the K3's AM-S mode on USB side the S9 station at 1500 kHz is clearly
intelligible, but the standard demodulation for 1500 is obliterated by the
1490 station. That ain't your granddaddy's AM out there any more. That's
some really complicated stuff that completely fills up +/- 10 kHz and
clearly not done the same from station to station. I'm going to save
googling that for a free evening when I don't have something broken to fix.

There is so much stuff I was taught by my WCTT Chief Engineer Elmer that I
am having to set aside.


73, Guy K2AV


On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 8:28 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:


On 3/30/2016 12:21 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

Unfortunately the guys who wrote the rules failed to understand the
physics and the math.

No Jim, you are wrong here. CW is a carrier modulated by a digital
(on/off keyed) signal of a given (baud) rate.  That keying will
generate sidebands +/- the baud rate *just like FSK* or even AM which
can be observed on a spectrum analyzer.  The ITU formula is quite
accurate in terms of the actual bandwidth for signals with *properly*
*shaped keying*.

Again, the excess bandwidth from improperly shaped keying signals
(clicks) and/or amplifier distortion is something else.

73,

... Joe, W4TV



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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Tokyo Hy-Power HL-1.2KFX amp interfacing (to ALC or not to ALC?)

2016-03-30 Thread Guy Olinger K2AV 
One could discourse all day on what "proper" is in this context without
ever a precise consensus among educated gentlemen. At some point of "ugly"
we would all agree that anything that sounds like that is improper.

When the only stateful levels were strictly on and off, and the rise and
fall transition time amplitude curves were set by a resistor and a
capacitor, one could make some simplifications in the discussion.

Today, often, as in the K3, the rise and fall times and shapes of CW are
DATA which goes DIRECTLY to RF via a DAC. For these the nature of the rise
and fall curve is not governed by a charge/discharge time of analog
components, but rather by whatever function generated the waveshape data,
which is stored, *read* as needed and never generated real time. In many
cases it is far more accurate to say that the rise and fall of a baud is
INTRODUCED, rather than the signal is keyed.

If the rise and fall data curves used for "keying" vary their "sharpness"
according to speed, then the description bandwidth increases by speed
certainly does apply. But if not, the bandwidth is governed by the pulse
generated by the rise and fall data, which could be the exact same from 1
wpm to 40 wpm.

We are so easily diverted into our lifelong, unconscious, and utterly
habitual analog thinking (note that I certainly do not give myself a free
pass here).

I was just looking at the P3 display of some traditional BC band stations
around here. A 30 over 9 station at 1490 kHz fills up 1480 to 1500. Using
the K3's AM-S mode on USB side the S9 station at 1500 kHz is clearly
intelligible, but the standard demodulation for 1500 is obliterated by the
1490 station. That ain't your granddaddy's AM out there any more. That's
some really complicated stuff that completely fills up +/- 10 kHz and
clearly not done the same from station to station. I'm going to save
googling that for a free evening when I don't have something broken to fix.

There is so much stuff I was taught by my WCTT Chief Engineer Elmer that I
am having to set aside.


73, Guy K2AV


On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 8:28 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV  wrote:

>
> On 3/30/2016 12:21 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
> > Unfortunately the guys who wrote the rules failed to understand the
> > physics and the math.
>
> No Jim, you are wrong here. CW is a carrier modulated by a digital
> (on/off keyed) signal of a given (baud) rate.  That keying will
> generate sidebands +/- the baud rate *just like FSK* or even AM which
> can be observed on a spectrum analyzer.  The ITU formula is quite
> accurate in terms of the actual bandwidth for signals with *properly*
> *shaped keying*.
>
> Again, the excess bandwidth from improperly shaped keying signals
> (clicks) and/or amplifier distortion is something else.
>
> 73,
>
>... Joe, W4TV
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Tokyo Hy-Power HL-1.2KFX amp interfacing (to ALC or not to ALC?)

2016-03-30 Thread Igor Sokolov 
IMHO CW can be seen as 100% AM modulation which will have 2 sidebands. 
Therefore the bandwidth will be dependant on speed or baud rate as well as 
shape of the wave form.


73, Igor UA9CDC

- Original Message - 
From: "Jim Brown" <j...@audiosystemsgroup.com>

To: <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 9:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Tokyo Hy-Power HL-1.2KFX amp interfacing (to 
ALC or not to ALC?)



Unfortunately the guys who wrote the rules failed to understand the 
physics and the math. They were WRONG, and it is a misconception under 
which we have been laboring for as long as I've been a ham. It was Henry 
Ott who woke me up to this when I took his 3-day class on EMC around 
2003-4. Henry is a VERY smart guy, one of many who came out of Bell Labs.


73, Jim K9YC

On Tue,3/29/2016 1:28 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>> On 3/29/2016 10:38 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

WRONG! CW speed has NOTHING to do with bandwidth, which is
determined by RISE and FALL times of the keying waveform and
distortion in the RF stages.


The standard word "paris" has 48 elements.  That makes the baud rate
for CW (48/60) x WPM or 0.80 x WPM.

ITU defines the "Necessary Bandwidth" for CW as 3 or 5 times the speed
in bits per second (baud rate) where 3 x is for "non fading circuits"
(where the waveform does not need to be so "sharp") and 5 x for "fading
circuits."See:
http://http://life.itu.ch/radioclub/rr/ap01.htm part B.
The same table is found in Title 97, Part 2 of the Code of Federal
Regulations (FCC Rules) as §2.202(g)

The constant 'K' sets the minimum bandwidth needed/occupied for the two
recognized cases.  Occupied bandwidth in excess of K=5 (or 400 Hz for
100 WPM) would be unacceptable due to improper keying waveforms or
distortion in the RF stages.

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV




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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Tokyo Hy-Power HL-1.2KFX amp interfacing (to ALC or not to ALC?)

2016-03-30 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV 


On 3/30/2016 12:21 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
> Unfortunately the guys who wrote the rules failed to understand the
> physics and the math.

No Jim, you are wrong here. CW is a carrier modulated by a digital
(on/off keyed) signal of a given (baud) rate.  That keying will
generate sidebands +/- the baud rate *just like FSK* or even AM which
can be observed on a spectrum analyzer.  The ITU formula is quite
accurate in terms of the actual bandwidth for signals with *properly* 
*shaped keying*.


Again, the excess bandwidth from improperly shaped keying signals
(clicks) and/or amplifier distortion is something else.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 3/30/2016 12:21 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

Unfortunately the guys who wrote the rules failed to understand the
physics and the math. They were WRONG, and it is a misconception under
which we have been laboring for as long as I've been a ham. It was Henry
Ott who woke me up to this when I took his 3-day class on EMC around
2003-4. Henry is a VERY smart guy, one of many who came out of Bell Labs.

73, Jim K9YC

On Tue,3/29/2016 1:28 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>> On 3/29/2016 10:38 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

WRONG! CW speed has NOTHING to do with bandwidth, which is
determined by RISE and FALL times of the keying waveform and
distortion in the RF stages.


The standard word "paris" has 48 elements.  That makes the baud rate
for CW (48/60) x WPM or 0.80 x WPM.

ITU defines the "Necessary Bandwidth" for CW as 3 or 5 times the speed
in bits per second (baud rate) where 3 x is for "non fading circuits"
(where the waveform does not need to be so "sharp") and 5 x for "fading
circuits."See:
http://http://life.itu.ch/radioclub/rr/ap01.htm part B.
The same table is found in Title 97, Part 2 of the Code of Federal
Regulations (FCC Rules) as §2.202(g)

The constant 'K' sets the minimum bandwidth needed/occupied for the two
recognized cases.  Occupied bandwidth in excess of K=5 (or 400 Hz for
100 WPM) would be unacceptable due to improper keying waveforms or
distortion in the RF stages.

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV




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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Tokyo Hy-Power HL-1.2KFX amp interfacing (to ALC or not to ALC?)

2016-03-29 Thread Jim Brown 
Unfortunately the guys who wrote the rules failed to understand the 
physics and the math. They were WRONG, and it is a misconception under 
which we have been laboring for as long as I've been a ham. It was Henry 
Ott who woke me up to this when I took his 3-day class on EMC around 
2003-4. Henry is a VERY smart guy, one of many who came out of Bell Labs.


73, Jim K9YC

On Tue,3/29/2016 1:28 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>> On 3/29/2016 10:38 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

WRONG! CW speed has NOTHING to do with bandwidth, which is
determined by RISE and FALL times of the keying waveform and
distortion in the RF stages.


The standard word "paris" has 48 elements.  That makes the baud rate
for CW (48/60) x WPM or 0.80 x WPM.

ITU defines the "Necessary Bandwidth" for CW as 3 or 5 times the speed
in bits per second (baud rate) where 3 x is for "non fading circuits"
(where the waveform does not need to be so "sharp") and 5 x for "fading
circuits."See:
http://http://life.itu.ch/radioclub/rr/ap01.htm part B.
The same table is found in Title 97, Part 2 of the Code of Federal
Regulations (FCC Rules) as §2.202(g)

The constant 'K' sets the minimum bandwidth needed/occupied for the two
recognized cases.  Occupied bandwidth in excess of K=5 (or 400 Hz for
100 WPM) would be unacceptable due to improper keying waveforms or
distortion in the RF stages.

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV




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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Tokyo Hy-Power HL-1.2KFX amp interfacing (to ALC or not to ALC?)

2016-03-29 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV 

>> On 3/29/2016 10:38 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

WRONG! CW speed has NOTHING to do with bandwidth, which is
determined by RISE and FALL times of the keying waveform and
distortion in the RF stages.


The standard word "paris" has 48 elements.  That makes the baud rate
for CW (48/60) x WPM or 0.80 x WPM.

ITU defines the "Necessary Bandwidth" for CW as 3 or 5 times the speed
in bits per second (baud rate) where 3 x is for "non fading circuits"
(where the waveform does not need to be so "sharp") and 5 x for "fading
circuits."See:
http://http://life.itu.ch/radioclub/rr/ap01.htm part B.
The same table is found in Title 97, Part 2 of the Code of Federal
Regulations (FCC Rules) as §2.202(g)

The constant 'K' sets the minimum bandwidth needed/occupied for the two
recognized cases.  Occupied bandwidth in excess of K=5 (or 400 Hz for
100 WPM) would be unacceptable due to improper keying waveforms or
distortion in the RF stages.

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV


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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Tokyo Hy-Power HL-1.2KFX amp interfacing (to ALC or not to ALC?)

2016-03-29 Thread Jim Brown 

On Tue,3/29/2016 11:28 AM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:

On 3/29/2016 10:38 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
WRONG! CW speed has NOTHING to do with bandwidth, which is determined 
by RISE and FALL times of the keying waveform and distortion in the 
RF stages.
So, I can occupy zero bandwidth at 10,000 wpm CW and my occupied 
bandwidth will be the same as 5 wpm as long as the keying waveform is 
right?


No, because even the best rise/fall waveform has SOME harmonic content, 
and CW speeds of 10,000 WPM have no practical meaning. But you CAN 
occupy extremely narrow (a few Hz) bandwidth with a steady carrier, 
because there's nothing to excite IMD. Bandwidth would be greater than 
that only to the extent that the carrier is modulated by power supply 
noise or phase noise. And, of course, any distortion in the RF chain 
will produce harmonics.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Tokyo Hy-Power HL-1.2KFX amp interfacing (to ALC or not to ALC?)

2016-03-29 Thread Jim Brown 

On Tue,3/29/2016 10:13 AM, Edward R Cole wrote:

CW actually has bandwidth though at 5wpm probably not measurable 


WRONG! CW speed has NOTHING to do with bandwidth, which is determined by 
RISE and FALL times of the keying waveform and distortion in the RF stages.


I strongly agree that amplifier output power should NEVER EVER be set 
using AGC. It should ALWAYS be set by setting drive power for the 
desired output, but always staying below the power level that increases 
amplifier non-linearity (distortion).


The use of AGC to set amplifier power has been considered a bad thing 
for at least 35 years -- the operating manual for my Ten Tec Titans says 
not to use it that way. If you look at the schematics (in the manual) 
you'll find K4XU's initials on them. Thank you, Dick!


The ONLY good way to use AGC is to protect the amplifier when something 
fails in the antenna system (by reducing drive from the transceiver). 
Yes, some rigs produce power spikes at the beginning of a transmission. 
Those are bad rigs, and have no business being used to drive a power 
amp! If you want to run an amp, buy a REAL radio. :)


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Tokyo Hy-Power HL-1.2KFX amp interfacing (to ALC or not to ALC?)

2016-03-29 Thread Edward R Cole 
I thought the best way to drive an amplifier was to increase drive 
until output no longer increased proportional to input; eg output 
increases 3-dB with an 3-dB increase in drive is linear.  Isn't the 
point the increase drops 1-dB the upper limit?


That is how I determine best drive level on VHF linear amps.  Most 
folks run up drive until they reach saturation (no change in output 
with increased drive) and then operate SSB there.  No wonder their 
voice peaks are cut off causing splatter.  BTW high speed CW should 
not be run at saturated power, either.  CW actually has bandwidth 
though at 5wpm probably not measurable 


ALC was a good concept that never worked very well (negative feedback 
gain control).  ALC meter on the K3 is useful for setting audio drive 
just to the point ALC begins to act (four bars with 5th flickering). 
But I guess all of you know that - right?


73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
dubus...@gmail.com

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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Tokyo Hy-Power HL-1.2KFX amp interfacing (to ALC or not to ALC?)

2016-03-29 Thread Alan Geller via Elecraft 
I have a THP HL-1.2KFX that I used before the acquisition of my K3. It is a 
reliable and resilient amp and I have had the ALC connected to the K3 for a 
year. However
I tend to take Don Wilhelms advice and there have been times when the ALC and 
SWR inputs to the AMP’s logic seem to fight each other, so I just disconnected
the ALC and will report any issues….silence = happiness.

I mourn the the shutdown THP after the earthquake/floods. It was a terrific 
company with a lot of great products with leadership in the mould of Elecraft.

Alan/K6ADG
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Re: [Elecraft] [K3] Tokyo Hy-Power HL-1.2KFX amp interfacing (to ALC or not to ALC?)

2016-03-28 Thread Don Wilhelm 

John,

I don't know what other folks do, and I don't have an amplifier, BUT ---

Using amplifier ALC is a good way to create splatter on the bands, so it 
should not be used if you are to present a clean signal.  ALC can be 
used as a crude means of power control - the amplifier is overdriven, so 
ALC activates and the drive power is reduced at the driving 
transceiver.  That is the "bad" use of ALC.  I know of at least one 
amplifier manufacturer which instructs the user to run the driving 
transceiver at full power and let the amplifier ALC control its power 
output - don't do that, it causes splatter on the bands because that 
control mechanism is not instantaneous - you go into an overdrive 
condition before the power can be reduced.


However, some solid state amplifiers also use it as a means to shut down 
the driving transceiver if it detects a fault condition.  The use of ALC 
for that purpose is justified IMHO.


Most amplifiers have a control which can set the ALC level.  So if you 
choose to use the ALC line for amplifier fault protection, then set that 
level well above the point where ALC will be activated by the amplifier 
for power control purposes - otherwise just adjust the drive power of 
the K3 to drive the amplifier to the desired power output and do not 
connect the ALC.


Just a point of opinion, I think the amplifier designers who like to 
depend on ALC for amplifier fault protection should find a different 
way.  If the amplifier is in a condition where it needs to reduce the 
power, that should be done in the amplifier itself without reliance on 
any external device, and that includes sending ALC to the driving 
transceiver.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/28/2016 4:51 PM, John Shadle wrote:

I'm considering adding a THP HL-1.2KFX solid state amp to the K3S station I
have, and was wondering how others have done this. There seems to be
conflicting info on the "right way" to do things.

1. The THP manual states that ALC should be used to control the amp, but
2. Elecraft support (and documents) suggest that ALC should not be used for
any amps.

Of course, that begs the question "Why is ALC included at all on the
K3/K3S?", but...anyway.

Elecraft support suggested I ask the reflector what other folks do, so I
am. Looking forward to your replies.




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[Elecraft] [K3] Tokyo Hy-Power HL-1.2KFX amp interfacing (to ALC or not to ALC?)

2016-03-28 Thread John Shadle 
I'm considering adding a THP HL-1.2KFX solid state amp to the K3S station I
have, and was wondering how others have done this. There seems to be
conflicting info on the "right way" to do things.

1. The THP manual states that ALC should be used to control the amp, but
2. Elecraft support (and documents) suggest that ALC should not be used for
any amps.

Of course, that begs the question "Why is ALC included at all on the
K3/K3S?", but...anyway.

Elecraft support suggested I ask the reflector what other folks do, so I
am. Looking forward to your replies.

Thanks!
-john NE4U
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