Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Hilberling PT-8000 cancelled.
On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:29:35 -0700, Alan Bloom wrote: I believe Europe also has SUSCEPTABILITY requirements which the FCC does not. EU requires that you STATE the level of susceptibility. That's all. FCC has no requirements with respect to susceptibility. 73, Jim K9YC Vice Chair, AES Standards Committee WG on EMC ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Hilberling PT-8000 cancelled.
All fine in principle, but here in the UK, nobody is enforcing the EMC legislation. Maybe Ireland is more fortunate. 73 Stewart G3RXQ Member RSGB EMC Committee On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 01:45:54 +0100, Brendan Minish wrote: On Fri, 2008-07-25 at 13:29 -0700, Alan Bloom wrote: However, I believe Europe also has SUSCEPTABILITY requirements which the FCC does not. That is a good thing for radio amateurs, or anyone who operates a transmitter. In Europe we do have ingress limits for consumer equipment and indeed they are set high enough to be useful to protect the transmitting amateur from many of the issues surrounding badly engineered consumer devices. Our CE rules also set emissions limits for consumer devices but unlike FCC part b the liability for any remaining issues to radio users EVEN where a device is fully CE compliant remains with the manufacturer or importer, not with the consumer that owns the device. CE compliance does not assume compliance with the EMC directive (article 4a is the relevant section for us) the electromagnetic disturbance it generates does not exceed a level allowing radio and telecommunications equipment and other apparatus to operate as intended no minimum limit is set for this condition to presumed to be met. This is actually great deal of protection for amateurs since even a fully CE complaint device that is causing interference to a radio user's normal operation must be resolved by the manufacturer or importer, not the hapless consumer that bought the device without knowledge that it was going to cause an issue for the 'radio ham next door' the EMC directive is available to read here http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/electr_equipment/emc/directiv/tex t.htm 73 EI6IZ (EMC representative for the IRTS) ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Hilberling PT-8000 cancelled.
Stewart Baker wrote: All fine in principle, but here in the UK, nobody is enforcing the EMC legislation. It's true that nobody is enforcing it effectively against grey imports. On the other hand, those are only a small minority of sales. The vast majority of sales come from responsible manufacturers, through responsible distributors. In Europe, the distributors provide the most effective enforcement of manufacturing standards for consumer goods. This is because consumers in Europe have strong legal rights which are directly against the distributor. If there is a manufacturing defect, then in most cases the consumer has a legal right to reject the goods and demand a refund from the distributor. (Some distributors still try to fool customers into going back to the manufacturer, but most consumers are becoming much more savvy about the law. Refusal to give a refund *will* bring down heavy enforcement from the consumer protection agencies.) The faulty goods then become the distributor's liability. Even if the issue is eventually resolved with the manufacturer, the time and trouble eats up everybody's profit margin. To avoid such situations as far as possible, distributors routinely demand formal declarations of quality, including compliance with all applicable standards. That still isn't to say that every declaration of compliance is truthful, or that the technical standards themselves are totally effective - far from it! - but even the present situation is a whole lot better than nothing. -- 73 from Ian GM3SEK http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Hilberling PT-8000 cancelled.
Sorry Ian, not so. If you had read the EMC column in RadCom you will see that complaints have been lodged with Ofcom by the RSGB EMCC with regard to computer SM PSU's. These are manufactured in China, fully CE marked, and sold through at least 3 well known electronic/computer outlets. In all cases the PSU's have been CE tested with the required input suppression components fitted, however when they are supplied to the UK these components are omitted, and wire links fitted in their place. The conducted noise level from these PSU's exceeds the permitted levels by many times. This is a clear breach of EU EMC legislation, but so far no action has been taken. They have also turned up in quantity in France. I am sure that these outlets selling the PSU's demanded, and got the paperwork. Unfortunately it is worthless unless there is enforcement. To date, despite much communication there has been nothing from Ofcom to move the matter forward. Taking the PSU back to the shop is fine if you brought the unit. Not so easy if it is a neighbour who's computer SM PSU is wiping out the HF bands. Although, not an EMC matter fairly recently a young boy was electrocuted because a CE marked computer PSU was of such poor quality that a low voltage wire touched the mains input wiring. In this case Trading Standards are investigating (after the event)... I am sorry if is rather OT, however it should be of interest to those who believe that all is well on the EMC front... 73 Stewart G3RXQ Member RSGB EMC Committee On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 09:43:27 +0100, Ian White GM3SEK wrote: Stewart Baker wrote: All fine in principle, but here in the UK, nobody is enforcing the EMC legislation. It's true that nobody is enforcing it effectively against grey imports. On the other hand, those are only a small minority of sales. The vast majority of sales come from responsible manufacturers, through responsible distributors. In Europe, the distributors provide the most effective enforcement of manufacturing standards for consumer goods. This is because consumers in Europe have strong legal rights which are directly against the distributor. If there is a manufacturing defect, then in most cases the consumer has a legal right to reject the goods and demand a refund from the distributor. (Some distributors still try to fool customers into going back to the manufacturer, but most consumers are becoming much more savvy about the law. Refusal to give a refund *will* bring down heavy enforcement from the consumer protection agencies.) The faulty goods then become the distributor's liability. Even if the issue is eventually resolved with the manufacturer, the time and trouble eats up everybody's profit margin. To avoid such situations as far as possible, distributors routinely demand formal declarations of quality, including compliance with all applicable standards. That still isn't to say that every declaration of compliance is truthful, or that the technical standards themselves are totally effective - far from it! - but even the present situation is a whole lot better than nothing. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Hilberling PT-8000 cancelled.
Simon Brown (HB9DRV) wrote: div class=moz-text-flowed style=font-family: -moz-fixedhttp://www.hilberling.de/news/news.htm Thank goodness for Wayne Eric! Translation by Adam VA7OJ/AB4OJ The manufacture of the PT-8000 product line has been discontinued. Due to the constant obstacles which we must overcome in ensuring compliance with EU-wide governmental regulations imposed on manufacturers, we were Unless the intent was only to sell on the Swiss market, the effect of EEC regulations ought to be less than without the EEC. The point of the EEC regulations is that you only have to comply once, even if having to meet the concerns of all the members means that the regulations are a bit more difficult. Without the regulations, you woudl still have needed to meet all the requirements, if you wanted to sell throughout Europe, but would have had to submit to an approval process in every country. The approval requirements might even be incompatible. Moreover, the big problem for EU amateurs is that the requirements are actually compromised, to meet manufacturer objections, and not well enforced, with the result that there is a lot of legal consumer equipment that causes severe RFI and also a lot of illegal equipment. (I believe the same happens at the US federal level, at least with respect to compromising EMC requirements). required to make constant design changes to this top-quality transceiver. The very high design goals which we had set for the PT-8000 could be fulfilled in a few prototype units. However, guaranteeing this high standard without limitations in a series production program with many vendors runs into difficulties which cannot be overcome at a cost level which is still acceptable. That's a different problem. The design wasn't reproducible and could not be rescued by production engineering. -- David Woolley The Elecraft list is a forum for the discussion of topics related to Elecraft products and more general topics related ham radio List Guidelines http://www.elecraft.com/elecraft_list_guidelines.htm ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Hilberling PT-8000 cancelled.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sounds like they didn't piece off the right bureaucrats. It must take some serious bakshish to get a new product through that multi-country regulatory maze. Well, products don't need certification at all in the EU/EEA, actually. They do need a declaration of compliance. The Norwegian PTT tests selected products for compliance. In about 60% of the cases, the product is found not to comply, and is withdrawn from the market. If this is done promptly, there are no further consequences. I wonder how randomly they select products to test :-) I do not believe the requirements are more onerous in Europe than in the U.S. 73 LA4RT Jon ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Hilberling PT-8000 cancelled.
This PT-8000 must have cost Hilberling a few million euro at least. Three stands at the big Friedrichshafen show (I am sure they were there in 2006), development and salaries and... I am sure Hilberling's company can afford this, it has a very high reputation and he holds some very fine patents. I was always skeptical as the price was so very high - 11,990 euro for a 100W single RX radio (no panoramic display) is a lot, even if it does come with a nice microphone. I see all docs have been pulled from the website, fortunately I made copies which I will keep. For those who never saw the beast look at http://gallery.ham-radio.ch/main.php?g2_itemId=15914g2_page=2 specifically images 0513 to 0520. Real engineers deliver products, the rest end up working in McDonalds. Simon Brown, HB9DRV -- From: David Woolley (E.L) [EMAIL PROTECTED] That's a different problem. The design wasn't reproducible and could not be rescued by production engineering. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Hilberling PT-8000 cancelled.
I also think that when you take a long hard look at the market for such a high price transceiver, given the mixed reception given to other manufacturers high end offerings, reality kicked in, also I guess the success of the K3 along with Rob Sherwood's measurements would make any competitor think twice. Elecraft have really produced a truly great radio at a great price and the nice thing is it continues to evolve. Peter G3MLO Simon Brown (HB9DRV) wrote: http://www.hilberling.de/news/news.htm Thank goodness for Wayne Eric! Translation by Adam VA7OJ/AB4OJ The manufacture of the PT-8000 product line has been discontinued. Simon Brown, HB9DRV ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/-OT--Hilberling-PT-8000-cancelled.-tp580697p582220.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Hilberling PT-8000 cancelled.
On Fri, 2008-07-25 at 00:34, Jon K Hellan wrote: I do not believe the requirements are more onerous in Europe than in the U.S. I believe that's more-or-less true for radiated and conducted EMISSIONS. However, I believe Europe also has SUSCEPTABILITY requirements which the FCC does not. That is a good thing for radio amateurs, or anyone who operates a transmitter. Al N1AL ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Hilberling PT-8000 cancelled.
On Fri, 2008-07-25 at 13:29 -0700, Alan Bloom wrote: However, I believe Europe also has SUSCEPTABILITY requirements which the FCC does not. That is a good thing for radio amateurs, or anyone who operates a transmitter. In Europe we do have ingress limits for consumer equipment and indeed they are set high enough to be useful to protect the transmitting amateur from many of the issues surrounding badly engineered consumer devices. Our CE rules also set emissions limits for consumer devices but unlike FCC part b the liability for any remaining issues to radio users EVEN where a device is fully CE compliant remains with the manufacturer or importer, not with the consumer that owns the device. CE compliance does not assume compliance with the EMC directive (article 4a is the relevant section for us) the electromagnetic disturbance it generates does not exceed a level allowing radio and telecommunications equipment and other apparatus to operate as intended no minimum limit is set for this condition to presumed to be met. This is actually great deal of protection for amateurs since even a fully CE complaint device that is causing interference to a radio user's normal operation must be resolved by the manufacturer or importer, not the hapless consumer that bought the device without knowledge that it was going to cause an issue for the 'radio ham next door' the EMC directive is available to read here http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/electr_equipment/emc/directiv/text.htm 73 EI6IZ (EMC representative for the IRTS) -- Don‘t complain. Nobody will understand. Or care. And certainly don‘t try to fix the situation yourself. It‘s dangerous. Leave it to a highly untrained, unqualified, expendable professional. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Hilberling PT-8000 cancelled.
Its also quite nice that CE requires you to pass some ESD requirements as well... On Sat, 2008-07-26 at 01:45 +0100, Brendan Minish wrote: On Fri, 2008-07-25 at 13:29 -0700, Alan Bloom wrote: However, I believe Europe also has SUSCEPTABILITY requirements which the FCC does not. That is a good thing for radio amateurs, or anyone who operates a transmitter. In Europe we do have ingress limits for consumer equipment and indeed they are set high enough to be useful to protect the transmitting amateur from many of the issues surrounding badly engineered consumer devices. Our CE rules also set emissions limits for consumer devices but unlike FCC part b the liability for any remaining issues to radio users EVEN where a device is fully CE compliant remains with the manufacturer or importer, not with the consumer that owns the device. CE compliance does not assume compliance with the EMC directive (article 4a is the relevant section for us) the electromagnetic disturbance it generates does not exceed a level allowing radio and telecommunications equipment and other apparatus to operate as intended no minimum limit is set for this condition to presumed to be met. This is actually great deal of protection for amateurs since even a fully CE complaint device that is causing interference to a radio user's normal operation must be resolved by the manufacturer or importer, not the hapless consumer that bought the device without knowledge that it was going to cause an issue for the 'radio ham next door' the EMC directive is available to read here http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/electr_equipment/emc/directiv/text.htm 73 EI6IZ (EMC representative for the IRTS) ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
[Elecraft] [OT] Hilberling PT-8000 cancelled.
http://www.hilberling.de/news/news.htm Thank goodness for Wayne Eric! Translation by Adam VA7OJ/AB4OJ The manufacture of the PT-8000 product line has been discontinued. Due to the constant obstacles which we must overcome in ensuring compliance with EU-wide governmental regulations imposed on manufacturers, we were required to make constant design changes to this top-quality transceiver. The very high design goals which we had set for the PT-8000 could be fulfilled in a few prototype units. However, guaranteeing this high standard without limitations in a series production program with many vendors runs into difficulties which cannot be overcome at a cost level which is still acceptable. We are most grateful for the great interest shown in us whilst this project was underway. Simon Brown, HB9DRV ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Hilberling PT-8000 cancelled.
Translated from English. We could not sell enough at the price it cost to remain viable. Mike Simon Brown (HB9DRV) wrote: http://www.hilberling.de/news/news.htm Thank goodness for Wayne Eric! Translation by Adam VA7OJ/AB4OJ The manufacture of the PT-8000 product line has been discontinued. Due to the constant obstacles which we must overcome in ensuring compliance with EU-wide governmental regulations imposed on manufacturers, we were required to make constant design changes to this top-quality transceiver. The very high design goals which we had set for the PT-8000 could be fulfilled in a few prototype units. However, guaranteeing this high standard without limitations in a series production program with many vendors runs into difficulties which cannot be overcome at a cost level which is still acceptable. We are most grateful for the great interest shown in us whilst this project was underway. Simon Brown, HB9DRV ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/-OT--Hilberling-PT-8000-cancelled.-tp580697p581029.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Hilberling PT-8000 cancelled.
Sounds like they didn't piece off the right bureaucrats. It must take some serious bakshish to get a new product through that multi-country regulatory maze. 73, Drew AF2Z On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 18:55:24 +0200, Simon Brown, HB9DRV wrote: http://www.hilberling.de/news/news.htm Translation by Adam VA7OJ/AB4OJ Due to the constant obstacles which we must overcome in ensuring compliance with EU-wide governmental regulations imposed on manufacturers, we were required to make constant design changes to this top-quality transceiver. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] [OT] Hilberling PT-8000 cancelled.
I'm glad to hear some people who understand this!!! I work in a company where we make bar code scanners which have scales in them. Releasing an electronic device world wide is hard enough but dealing with weights and measures in all of these countries is a whole different issue. We're recently getting into becoming our own calibrating body. When we ship a scale now we're actually going to have to be able to calibrate for the offset in gravity from where it was calibrated to where its installed. On Thu, 2008-07-24 at 20:11 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sounds like they didn't piece off the right bureaucrats. It must take some serious bakshish to get a new product through that multi-country regulatory maze. 73, Drew AF2Z On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 18:55:24 +0200, Simon Brown, HB9DRV wrote: http://www.hilberling.de/news/news.htm Translation by Adam VA7OJ/AB4OJ Due to the constant obstacles which we must overcome in ensuring compliance with EU-wide governmental regulations imposed on manufacturers, we were required to make constant design changes to this top-quality transceiver. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
