Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[Fred Smith]

Eric closed this thread.

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of M5FRA - Colin
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 11:06 AM
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

I have nothing against digital modes having used RTTY for 40 years. And I
also use modes like Olivia. What bothers me is when the computer does all
the processing on its own without human intervention. I recently used Opera
and just sat there and watched the PC do the 'QSOs'. For me ham radio is
about people communicating and total PC control is just a step too far. 
  
Colin - G8FRA/M5FRA
  
m5fra.org.uk <http://www.m5fra.org.uk>


-- Original Message --
From: "Jim Douglass" 
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: 09/11/2012 13:13:05
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best
>I agree with both sides of the discussion.
>
>I was an Army trained cw/ RTTY intercept operator. Learned the morse 
>code and where the keys were on a typewriter one very hot summer just 
>outside of Boston  at a place called Fort Devens.
>After that I was sent to radio-teletype school.
>Years later I taught myself how to copy with a "stick" and to this day 
>still feel more comfortable copying it all down.
>
>Spend 95% + of my time in amateur radio on the digital modes of cw 
>(ears
>only) and RTTY.
>
>I also tell anyone who will listen that amateur radio has *so many* 
>areas of interest that losing interest in one area just opens up 
>another area.
>This gives you the opportunity to try operating different modes, 
>building things, award chasing, public service and the list goes on and on.
>
>And best of all the Xyl always knows where I am 
> in the shack on piddling with new idea or trying something new the 
>backyard and not at the local pub!
>
>~73 to all
>
>Jim AC0E
>On 11/8/2012 9:46 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:
>
>>
>>Re: CW Decoding - Your Brain is best (stan levandowski)
>>
>
>
>__
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home:
>http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help:
>http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
>This list hosted by:
>http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list:
>http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5384 - Release Date: 11/09/12

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[Dyarnes]

Hi All,

I'm not going to totally throw cold water on those trying to rely heavily on 
the CW decoding capability of the K3 (and KX3), but I think you will be 
mostly frustrated.  First of all, the decoding capability of these rigs is 
heavily dependent on several factors, including a pretty good signal and 
properly sent characters (including spacing).  Even if the characters are 
well formed, you can still think you are getting some gibberish if the 
spacing isn't correct--you have to focus on properly separating the 
characters, and some ops really make that a chore!

I do appreciate the capability these rigs have, and even use it once in a 
while--very seldom though.  One example is when I run across a handful of 
ops on 40 meters who like to gather nearly every day and play "burn out"!  A 
couple of these guys are going 40 wpm plus, and that is a bit too fast for 
me--I get a lot of it, but not all.  Fortunately, they tend to send pretty 
good code (I am suspicious that some of them may be using keyboards), so I 
can "fill" in what I miss from the code reading feature on my K3 and KX3. 
I'm not participating in the conversation, but use it for code practice.

Probably the biggest benefit of the code reader is when I am showing off the 
radio to someone who doesn't know code.  Not only can they see what I am 
hearing (at least most of it), they can see what I am sending as well.  The 
abbreviations we use on CW will throw them a bit, but they tend to get the 
gist of the conversation--I can explain the "shorthand" later.  This really 
is helpful!  An observer's eyes can glaze over pretty quickly when all they 
hear is a bunch of dits and dahs that have no meaning.  However, when they 
can see that real information is being passed back and forth, and they can 
interpret it, their attention span, and interest, is much greater.

I applaud Wayne and Lyle's efforts to try and make the code reading 
capability better, but I am somewhat pessimistic that they will be able to 
make substantial improvements.  I say that primarily because I think the 
deficiencies of the sender are apt to be too great, and too variant, to 
really overcome.  Too many ops out there just don't seem to be motivated to 
try and emulate machine quality code.  I don't know, from a technical 
standpoint, what adjustments Wayne and Lyle are trying to make, so I can't 
really say with any certainty how successful they will be.  Perhaps they can 
get the reader to accept variations in the "1 to 3" ratio more readily. 
That could help I suppose.  I think they inferred that was one objective. 
However, I don't know how you can ever overcome most of the spacing issues. 
That's my biggest problem in just trying to copy CW, and it seems to be 
where most code reading software tends to go sideways.  If someone is going 
to insist on running characters together, only the human brain can probably 
figure that out--eventually!  If you are dealing with weak signal problems 
I'm not sure what improvements can be made.

I like the code reading capability on these rigs--it's clever and sometimes 
beneficial.  However, I see very little promise of it becoming something an 
operator can rely on primarily.  Your best chance of doing so is if 
keyboards are being used.  However, if you do that, without being able to 
translate things yourself, it really does become "just another digital 
mode", and not much different than using something like PSK31.

Dave W7AQK


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[M5FRA - Colin]

I have nothing against digital modes having used RTTY for 40 years. And 
I also use modes like Olivia. What bothers me is when the computer does 
all the processing on its own without human intervention. I recently 
used Opera and just sat there and watched the PC do the 'QSOs'. For me 
ham radio is about people communicating and total PC control is just a 
step too far. 
  
Colin - G8FRA/M5FRA
  
m5fra.org.uk <http://www.m5fra.org.uk>


-- Original Message --
From: "Jim Douglass" 
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: 09/11/2012 13:13:05
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best
>I agree with both sides of the discussion.
>
>I was an Army trained cw/ RTTY intercept operator. Learned the morse
>code and where the keys were on a typewriter one
>very hot summer just outside of Boston  at a place called Fort Devens.
>After that I was sent to radio-teletype school.
>Years later I taught myself how to copy with a "stick" and to this day
>still feel more comfortable copying it all down.
>
>Spend 95% + of my time in amateur radio on the digital modes of cw (ears
>only) and RTTY.
>
>I also tell anyone who will listen that amateur radio has *so many*
>areas of interest that losing interest in one area just opens up another
>area.
>This gives you the opportunity to try operating different modes,
>building things, award chasing, public service and the list goes on and on.
>
>And best of all the Xyl always knows where I am 
> in the shack on piddling with new idea or trying something new the
>backyard and not at the local pub!
>
>~73 to all
>
>Jim AC0E
>On 11/8/2012 9:46 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:
>
>>
>>Re: CW Decoding - Your Brain is best (stan levandowski)
>>
>
>
>__
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home:
>http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help:
>http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
>This list hosted by:
>http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list:
>http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

Hi guys,

While interesting, we are way exceeding the max posting limit per day on 
a single topic. Let's end this thread at this time in the interest of 
keeping list volume under control for our readers.

73,

Eric
List Moderator ---
www.elecraft.com

On 11/9/2012 7:32 AM, Michael Usher AG6MK wrote:
> I also agree with both sides.  I have great respect for those who have 
> learned this skill, and I'm trying to get there myself.
>
> But I also see the value in computer assisted modes.
>
>

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[Michael Usher AG6MK]

I also agree with both sides.  I have great respect for those who have learned 
this skill, and I'm trying to get there myself.

But I also see the value in computer assisted modes.

The question really is "how many dB is brain decoding worth?"

If the signal is strong and stable enough, a computer can be just as good as a 
brain -- but the brain will cope with weak signals better.

I work in the tech industry -- and I can read a raw byte stream from a sniffer 
and easily distinguish packet types, options, payload.  Do I use that technique 
for my email?  No -- it's more convenient for the computer to do all that for 
me.

It's always a tradeoff for what tools you choose to engage.

Is it cheating to use a notepad to write down the code?  Is it cheating to type 
the code you recognize on a keyboard into a note application (faster than 
writing)?

I think these decisions are all up to the operator.

The great thing about this hobby is that it accommodates all the different 
skill levels and styles of operation.

$0.02
Michael
AG6MK
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[Elecraft] CW Decoding-Your Brain Is Best

[joe living]

This may be off topic, but I read an interesting book on how digital technology 
affects 
our Culture. Sort of along Marshall McLuhen's 'We make tools and then our tools 
remake us". 
The book, written by an MIT Prof named Turkle, is called 'Alone Together' and 
was reviewed on NPR recently:
 
http://www.npr.org/books/titles/141419988/alone-together-why-we-expect-more-from-technology-and-less-from-each-other
 
I write this sitting at the operating position staring at my J-38, Vibroplex, 
Bencher Paddles, and my keyboard. We gain and lose with what we call progress.
 
Joe W3GW 
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[KQ8M]

I challenge anyone using strictly software to copy CW to beat me in the next CQ 
WW WPX CW contest. I will use software only for
logging and sending. I will copy CW myself.

Mundane exchanges. I bet the Software messes up so many exchanges it gets 
disqualified.


73,
Tim Herrick, KQ8M
Charter Member North Coast Contesters
k...@kq8m.com

AR-Cluster V6 kq8m.no-ip.org
User Ports: 23, 7373  with local skimmer, 7374 without local skimmer
Server Ports: V6 3607, V4 Active 3605, V4 Passive 3606


-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of M5FRA - Colin
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 2:38 AM
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

I wonder what constitutes a QSO on some digital modes. Using Opera you 
can click the auto QSO button and even automatically upload the 'QSO' 
to eqsl. The op does not have to do anything much other than watch the 
screen. You could get your DXCC by just leaving the computer running 
long enough. Thing is who would get the award, the computer or the OP? 
No contact with other human beings and minimal effort. Buy a radio, an 
antenna and a PC, download the software, add you details to the prog 
and let it run? Is that what the hobby has come to? 
  
Colin - G8FRA/M5FRA
  
m5fra.org.uk <http://www.m5fra.org.uk>


-- Original Message --
From: "Fred Smith" 
To: "'Jim Dunstan'" ;elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: 08/11/2012 22:49:12
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best
>I'm one who doesn't "enjoy" digital modes none of them CW included it's just
>a tool to make contacts with is all it is. Computers are made for digital
>modes and have brought them a long way with the JT65 modes to where we can
>work stations that could never be worked on CW and even with QRP. I enjoy
>speaking to someone on the phone for only for so long then I want to hang up
>also.
>
>

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[Jim Douglass]

I agree with both sides of the discussion.

I was an Army trained cw/ RTTY intercept operator. Learned the morse 
code and where the keys were on a typewriter one
very hot summer just outside of Boston  at a place called Fort Devens. 
After that I was sent to radio-teletype school.
Years later I taught myself how to copy with a "stick" and to this day 
still feel more comfortable copying it all down.

Spend 95% + of my time in amateur radio on the digital modes of cw (ears 
only) and RTTY.

I also tell anyone who will listen that amateur radio has *so many* 
areas of interest that losing interest in one area just opens up another 
area.
This gives you the opportunity to try operating different modes, 
building things, award chasing, public service and the list goes on and on.

And best of all the Xyl always knows where I am 
  in the shack on piddling with new idea or trying something new the 
backyard and not at the local pub!

~73 to all

Jim AC0E
On 11/8/2012 9:46 PM, elecraft-requ...@mailman.qth.net wrote:
> Re: CW Decoding - Your Brain is best (stan levandowski)

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[Fred Smith]

Colin

Not directed at any one person sorry if you took it that way, if it had been
your name would have been on it. But from your comments it sounded like you
had never used them and had an axe to grind. With the "just leave a computer
running and have DXCC" from that statement it became apparent your disdain
for others who do not share your exact opinions.

I enjoy all modes and whatever means others use to accomplish them is fine
with me as long as they follow the rules. It's a hobby one to be enjoyed I
do and I don't let little things bother me at all on either side of the pond
8>).

73,
Fred/N0AZZ

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of M5FRA - Colin
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 4:51 AM
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

If that was directed at me Fred it is simply not true. My comments are from
experience not dogma.
73
  
Colin - G8FRA/M5FRA
  
m5fra.org.uk <http://www.m5fra.org.uk>


-- Original Message --
From: "Fred Smith" 
To: "'M5FRA - Colin'" ;Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: 09/11/2012 09:10:19
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best
>I'm finished with this thread to many people making statements that 
>have no real world experience using the latest CW software. And worst 
>of all not a clue as to how many complete canned responses they get 
>during a contest. The only way to know is if the op is using a key is 
>if he has such a poor fist you can't understand him. In a DX pileup all 
>it takes is to push 2 buttons on the front of the K3 and the CW contact 
>finished you've read it on the P3/SVGA screen Wonderful!!!
>
>Thanks for all the useful comments posted and everyone have a great 
>"Veterans Day" and remember all those who fought for our country. Even 
>now and our standing in the world and at home.
>
>73,
>Fred/N0AZZ
>
>-Original Message-
>From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
>[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of M5FRA - Colin
>Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 1:38 AM
>To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best
>
>I wonder what constitutes a QSO on some digital modes. Using Opera you 
>can click the auto QSO button and even automatically upload the 'QSO'
>to eqsl. The op does not have to do anything much other than watch the 
>screen. You could get your DXCC by just leaving the computer running 
>long enough. Thing is who would get the award, the computer or the OP?
>No contact with other human beings and minimal effort. Buy a radio, an 
>antenna and a PC, download the software, add you details to the prog 
>and let it run? Is that what the hobby has come to?
>
>Colin - G8FRA/M5FRA
>
>m5fra.org.uk <
>http://www.m5fra.org.uk>
>
>
>-- Original Message --
>From: "Fred Smith" 
>To: "'Jim Dunstan'" ;elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>Sent: 08/11/2012 22:49:12
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best
>
>>
>>I'm one who doesn't "enjoy" digital modes none of them CW included 
>>it's just a tool to make contacts with is all it is. Computers are 
>>made for digital modes and have brought them a long way with the JT65 
>>modes to where we can work stations that could never be worked on CW 
>>and even with QRP. I enjoy speaking to someone on the phone for only 
>>for so long then I want to hang up also.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>__
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home:
>http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help:
>http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
>This list hosted by:
>http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list:
>http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>
>

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[M5FRA - Colin]

If that was directed at me Fred it is simply not true. My comments are 
from experience not dogma.
73
  
Colin - G8FRA/M5FRA
  
m5fra.org.uk <http://www.m5fra.org.uk>


-- Original Message --
From: "Fred Smith" 
To: "'M5FRA - Colin'" ;Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: 09/11/2012 09:10:19
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best
>I'm finished with this thread to many people making statements that have no
>real world experience using the latest CW software. And worst of all not a
>clue as to how many complete canned responses they get during a contest. The
>only way to know is if the op is using a key is if he has such a poor fist
>you can't understand him. In a DX pileup all it takes is to push 2 buttons
>on the front of the K3 and the CW contact finished you've read it on the
>P3/SVGA screen Wonderful!!!
>
>Thanks for all the useful comments posted and everyone have a great
>"Veterans Day" and remember all those who fought for our country. Even now
>and our standing in the world and at home.
>
>73,
>Fred/N0AZZ
>
>-Original Message-
>From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
>[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of M5FRA - Colin
>Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 1:38 AM
>To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best
>
>I wonder what constitutes a QSO on some digital modes. Using Opera you can
>click the auto QSO button and even automatically upload the 'QSO'
>to eqsl. The op does not have to do anything much other than watch the
>screen. You could get your DXCC by just leaving the computer running long
>enough. Thing is who would get the award, the computer or the OP?
>No contact with other human beings and minimal effort. Buy a radio, an
>antenna and a PC, download the software, add you details to the prog and let
>it run? Is that what the hobby has come to?
>
>Colin - G8FRA/M5FRA
>
>m5fra.org.uk <
>http://www.m5fra.org.uk>
>
>
>-- Original Message --
>From: "Fred Smith" 
>To: "'Jim Dunstan'" ;elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>Sent: 08/11/2012 22:49:12
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best
>
>>
>>I'm one who doesn't "enjoy" digital modes none of them CW included it's
>>just a tool to make contacts with is all it is. Computers are made for
>>digital modes and have brought them a long way with the JT65 modes to
>>where we can work stations that could never be worked on CW and even
>>with QRP. I enjoy speaking to someone on the phone for only for so long
>>then I want to hang up also.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>__
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home:
>http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help:
>http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
>This list hosted by:
>http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list:
>http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>
>

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[Julian, G4ILO]

You could try KComm. It works with the K3's own keyer and decoder. It works
with the KX3 too.


W7GJ, Lance wrote
> I have just bee introduced to N1MM, and that seems to work great with my
> K3 and 
> laptop computer, but it really seems geared for quick openings or working
> pileups.  
> Is there something better suited to casual CW QSO's?





-
Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392  K3 #222.
* G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com
* KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html
* KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html

--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/CW-Decoding-Your-Brain-is-best-tp7565244p7565317.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[Fred Smith]

I'm finished with this thread to many people making statements that have no
real world experience using the latest CW software. And worst of all not a
clue as to how many complete canned responses they get during a contest. The
only way to know is if the op is using a key is if he has such a poor fist
you can't understand him. In a DX pileup all it takes is to push 2 buttons
on the front of the K3 and the CW contact finished you've read it on the
P3/SVGA screen Wonderful!!!

Thanks for all the useful comments posted and everyone have a great
"Veterans Day" and remember all those who fought for our country. Even now
and our standing in the world and at home.

73,
Fred/N0AZZ

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of M5FRA - Colin
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 1:38 AM
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

I wonder what constitutes a QSO on some digital modes. Using Opera you can
click the auto QSO button and even automatically upload the 'QSO' 
to eqsl. The op does not have to do anything much other than watch the
screen. You could get your DXCC by just leaving the computer running long
enough. Thing is who would get the award, the computer or the OP? 
No contact with other human beings and minimal effort. Buy a radio, an
antenna and a PC, download the software, add you details to the prog and let
it run? Is that what the hobby has come to? 
  
Colin - G8FRA/M5FRA
  
m5fra.org.uk <http://www.m5fra.org.uk>


-- Original Message --
From: "Fred Smith" 
To: "'Jim Dunstan'" ;elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: 08/11/2012 22:49:12
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best
>I'm one who doesn't "enjoy" digital modes none of them CW included it's 
>just a tool to make contacts with is all it is. Computers are made for 
>digital modes and have brought them a long way with the JT65 modes to 
>where we can work stations that could never be worked on CW and even 
>with QRP. I enjoy speaking to someone on the phone for only for so long 
>then I want to hang up also.
>
>

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[Fred Smith]

Yes. Most of those you quoted can be done with a computer, not exactly the
same but very closely copied. The Porsche now it's completely computer
designed and some controlled glad you brought that up.

As for out wonderful K3,FTDX-5000 and other such radios would be lost
without many small computers that make them perform well. It has been hashed
out so many times in the past but even CW was deemed not that useful for our
license several years back after the military, ships and most others dropped
use. I compare it to Deer hunting most all use regular firearms to kill
their Deer. But there are several small groups that still Bow and Black
Powder hunt the way it was done 150 yrs ago same for CW ops.

It's just a hobby and a place for all of us to enjoy ourselves and make
contacts. It doesn't make any difference how you do them, just make the
contact and log it.

Fred/N0AZZ

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of eric manning
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 11:17 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best


"CW is just another digital mode"

Yes, and Rembrandt is just another painter, Dizzy was just another trumpet
player a Porsche  is just another  car a K3 is just another radio

   . . . . .


Eric VA7DZ

"All Men  are not Created Equal ... Some of US Know CW"



--
This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[M5FRA - Colin]

I wonder what constitutes a QSO on some digital modes. Using Opera you 
can click the auto QSO button and even automatically upload the 'QSO' 
to eqsl. The op does not have to do anything much other than watch the 
screen. You could get your DXCC by just leaving the computer running 
long enough. Thing is who would get the award, the computer or the OP? 
No contact with other human beings and minimal effort. Buy a radio, an 
antenna and a PC, download the software, add you details to the prog 
and let it run? Is that what the hobby has come to? 
  
Colin - G8FRA/M5FRA
  
m5fra.org.uk <http://www.m5fra.org.uk>


-- Original Message --
From: "Fred Smith" 
To: "'Jim Dunstan'" ;elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: 08/11/2012 22:49:12
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best
>I'm one who doesn't "enjoy" digital modes none of them CW included it's just
>a tool to make contacts with is all it is. Computers are made for digital
>modes and have brought them a long way with the JT65 modes to where we can
>work stations that could never be worked on CW and even with QRP. I enjoy
>speaking to someone on the phone for only for so long then I want to hang up
>also.
>
>

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[Ralph Parker]

>After you set things up, very little real CW skill is necessary
>to be a CW contest player. Indeed, many probably do just that.

Ha ha ha, you make funny joke!

(I have deleted my following remarks in the interest of maintaining
civility on the reflector.)

Ralph, VE7XF

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[F5vjc]

Amen !

At last some sense here. Anyone who believes you can successfully operate
 CW using a decoder is living in cuckoo land !
For a CW contest... forget it !
Decoders are very poor at coping with typical HF conditions, QRM, QRN, QSB,
ESP signals, poor sending, spacing, bad spelling, all will produce
frustrating gibberish from a decoder. ( Yes they are improving but will
never be good enough).
Any real CW Op knows this.
However, the Brain of a real CW Op can cope with this all of in a
remarkable way and is much more satisfying.

You either want to be a CW Op or not.

If not,  stick with the automated digital modes.

73, F5VJC

On 9 November 2012 06:17, eric manning  wrote:

>
> "CW is just another digital mode"
>
> Yes, and Rembrandt is just another painter,
> Dizzy was just another trumpet player
> a Porsche  is just another  car
> a K3 is just another radio
>
>. . . . .
>
>
> Eric VA7DZ
>
> "All Men  are not Created Equal ... Some of US Know CW"
>
>
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> believed to be clean.
>
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[eric manning]

"CW is just another digital mode"

Yes, and Rembrandt is just another painter,
Dizzy was just another trumpet player
a Porsche  is just another  car
a K3 is just another radio

   . . . . .


Eric VA7DZ

"All Men  are not Created Equal ... Some of US Know CW"



-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[Gary K9GS]

Hello Phil,

I respectively disagree Phil.  I can absolutely, positively, 100% 
GUARANTEE that a major CW was never won by someone using a CW decoder.  
I'd even stick my neck out and say that no one has ever broken into the 
top 10.  I also don't think software will ever surpass the human brain 
for decoding CW.

The purpose of CW skimmers for contesting is not so much to decode 
callsigns as it is to fill the bandmap of available stations to work.

At the end of this month is the biggieCQWW CW.  Please take a few 
minutes and listen, really listen, to one of the big stations work a 
pileup running stations.  Then switch on your CW decoder and see how 
that works.  It will open your eyes...


On 11/8/2012 4:21 PM, Phil Hystad wrote:
> I can see that someone might want to use a K3 CW decode or a computer decode 
> program like CW Skimmer when operating a contest.  After you set things up, 
> very little real CW skill is necessary to be a CW contest player.  Indeed, 
> many probably do just that.
>
> Ultimately of course, the software will get better and the instance of the 
> human operator will no longer be necessary.  Some future glorified computer 
> program can play the game all by itself.  You can even schedule your computer 
> program to startup when the contest schedules begin and stop when they end.  
> Of course, total control of your rig by remote is included.
>
> Cool -- just think, I could be off doing more interesting things while 
> operating a contest from my Mac hosted computer application.  I could be a 
> high scorer -- I could win!  I would be the contesting CW champ.  Or, at 
> least my program would be but no one need know that.
>
> The best part is that during the contest and during all those automated hours 
> or cranking up my score at 2.7 GHz CPU speeds, I can be out in the wilds 
> nearby with my wire antenna thrown into the nearest tree and operating QRP CW 
> from my KX3 using my Begali paddle.
>
> 73, phil, K7PEH
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

-- 


73,

Gary K9GS

Greater Milwaukee DX Association: http://www.gmdxa.org
Society of Midwest Contesters: http://www.w9smc.com
CW Ops #1032   http://www.cwops.org



__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[David Gilbert]

I don't rely on a CW decoder, but I have done a lot of contesting in 
both CW and SSB modes, and if that skewed contention were true we 
wouldn't have just as many people calling out of turn on SSB as we do on CW.

Dave   AB7E



>
> -Original Message-
> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
> [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ralph Parker
> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 1:27 PM
> To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best
>
>
> Sorry for the rant, but there are w too many people calling 
> out of turn these days. I suspect that non-brain decoders are the reason.

> Ralph, VE7XF _

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[M5FRA - Colin]

Interesting discussion. If you _want_ to learn CW you _can_do it. I 
started when was 50 and had suffered minor brain damage from years of 
heart disease 'episodes' as UK doctors call them. It has been a 
struggle but well worth it. Electronic decode is not the same and does 
not work well with hand coded Morse. If you want to use CW then just be 
determined to learn it and enjoy doing something that no amount of 
money can buy. 
  
Colin - G8FRA/M5FRA
  
m5fra.org.uk 


>
>

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[Fred Smith]

I'm one who doesn't "enjoy" digital modes none of them CW included it's just
a tool to make contacts with is all it is. Computers are made for digital
modes and have brought them a long way with the JT65 modes to where we can
work stations that could never be worked on CW and even with QRP. I enjoy
speaking to someone on the phone for only for so long then I want to hang up
also.

73,
Fred/N0AZZ

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jim Dunstan
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 4:26 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

At 05:08 PM 11/8/2012, Jim Dunstan wrote:
>At 03:56 PM 11/8/2012, you wrote:
>>
>>  I respect the hams that have spent many hours developing and 
>>improving their CW skills ... until they attempt to discourage hams 
>>who choose to come at CW with a different approach. The conjecture 
>>that those of us using decoders cause more problems than those audibly 
>>decoding is just that - a conjecture. Inexperience is very likely a more
>>important factor.   Please note that many accomplished CW ops use keyers
>>when it's to their advantage - during CW contests.  Software-generated 
>>code has no "fist"and is therefore more readable.  And many CW 
>>contesters  can achieve higher speeds with accuracy using a keyer and 
>>software than they may be able to do by hand.

I disagree to some of your statement.  In particular that computer generated
cw ... that comes without "fist" is more readable..  I am from the old
school ... I was a commercial CW operator at the end of the era.  The 'fist'
as u describe was similar to a speaking accent.  Some accents are easier to
understand than others (from a personal point of view).  The fist was very
important ... it defined who you were. The official policy of the service
was that operators should use a manual key.  However almost everyone on the
net (used a keyer - bug in those days) which added to but didn't create the
different 'fists'.  There were some great 'fists' ... some that u could sit
back and read like music.  To be able to send with such a fist was really a
'gift'.  Such a gifted 'fist' is by far superior to computer generated cw
using an unimaginative algorithim. If you can listen to a wonderful 'fist'
and compare to a computer generated signal ... u would immediately recognize
the difference.

So i encourage cw ops to develop their own 'fists' ... who knows they may be
one of those gifted with the magic 'fist" ... the fist that allows you to
sit back and enjoy listening to it.

Jim, VE3CI 

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[Fred Smith]

You forgot one thing when you go portable to take your netbook no need for
the key CW will be treated as any other digital mode, no more no less. Just
things progressing as they do many have changed in my lifetime.

73,
Fred/N0AZZ



-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Phil Hystad
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 4:22 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net List
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

I can see that someone might want to use a K3 CW decode or a computer decode
program like CW Skimmer when operating a contest.  After you set things up,
very little real CW skill is necessary to be a CW contest player.  Indeed,
many probably do just that.

Ultimately of course, the software will get better and the instance of the
human operator will no longer be necessary.  Some future glorified computer
program can play the game all by itself.  You can even schedule your
computer program to startup when the contest schedules begin and stop when
they end.  Of course, total control of your rig by remote is included.

Cool -- just think, I could be off doing more interesting things while
operating a contest from my Mac hosted computer application.  I could be a
high scorer -- I could win!  I would be the contesting CW champ.  Or, at
least my program would be but no one need know that.

The best part is that during the contest and during all those automated
hours or cranking up my score at 2.7 GHz CPU speeds, I can be out in the
wilds nearby with my wire antenna thrown into the nearest tree and operating
QRP CW from my KX3 using my Begali paddle.

73, phil, K7PEH
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[Jim Dunstan]

At 05:08 PM 11/8/2012, Jim Dunstan wrote:
>At 03:56 PM 11/8/2012, you wrote:
>>
>>  I respect the hams that have spent many hours developing and
>>improving their CW skills ... until they attempt to discourage hams who
>>choose to come at CW with a different approach. The conjecture that
>>those of us using decoders cause more problems than those audibly
>>decoding is just that - a conjecture. Inexperience is very likely a more
>>important factor.   Please note that many accomplished CW ops use keyers
>>when it's to their advantage - during CW contests.  Software-generated
>>code has no "fist"and is therefore more readable.  And many CW
>>contesters  can achieve higher speeds with accuracy using a keyer and
>>software than they may be able to do by hand.

I disagree to some of your statement.  In particular that computer 
generated cw ... that comes without "fist" is more readable..  I am 
from the old school ... I was a commercial CW operator at the end of 
the era.  The 'fist' as u describe was similar to a speaking 
accent.  Some accents are easier to understand than others (from a 
personal point of view).  The fist was very important ... it defined 
who you were. The official policy of the service was that operators 
should use a manual key.  However almost everyone on the net (used a 
keyer - bug in those days) which added to but didn't create the 
different 'fists'.  There were some great 'fists' ... some that u 
could sit back and read like music.  To be able to send with such a 
fist was really a 'gift'.  Such a gifted 'fist' is by far superior to 
computer generated cw using an unimaginative algorithim. If you can 
listen to a wonderful 'fist' and compare to a computer generated 
signal ... u would immediately recognize the difference.

So i encourage cw ops to develop their own 'fists' ... who knows they 
may be one of those gifted with the magic 'fist" ... the fist that 
allows you to sit back and enjoy listening to it.

Jim, VE3CI 

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[Mike Sanders]

Someone was on the right track. Why all the systems and methods?
Just get on the air and use it. That is how we actually did it back when.
We used CW as a primary mode for the most part. We learned how to
use it and improved by doing it on the air. 
Anyway I want to talk about CW, CW decode on the K3, The P3/SVGA
and keyboard and CW decode and send using all of the above.
I was watching some CW stations on the monitor RX window while
having Text Dec turned on. I got to messing with the NR, Audio filter
and such. It all makes a difference in getting better decode. Anyway
I got to thinking how good it actually was and how it could help those
who do not do CW because of a million reasons including age and
hearing losses or problems. 
Having a couple of the memories on CW set up a non code person
could use the K3/P3/SVGA/Nice size monitor to actually work CW
at any speed. This especially in contests where the keying is usually
"machine" memory sent and the exchange is minimal. A person 
could easily make QSOs using the programmed memories.
Tune in a station on the monitor or K3 display. Find that you need
that one for whatever award/s and you want to work him. Follow
his activity and when he breaks for another station hit M1 on the K3
sending out your call. Watch the monitor for him to respond to you.
If he does he sends 599 0123 K. You hit M2 on the K3 which sends
RR 5NN TU and you have a valid DX style contact. Not a rag chew
of course but in the log and on the wall. Of course that is as minimal
as it gets but it works to work a new one and a new mode for the
contest or just the award/s you want. 
Really think about it for a minute. Lots of rigs can do it but the K3 does
it well. They don't even advertise CW operation for non CW types.8>)
but it's there. 
73 es GL ...6M DXCC #436 132/132  "It ain't easy bein a ZERO".

 
 
Mike Sanders 
KOAZ
   
 
 


__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[Fred Smith]

If you check the calls on most all of them you will find most "ALL" old
extra or advanced ops just LIDS as always things are the same as before
computers even came along. You speak as if this is some kind of new thing,
in fact software has improved many aspects of the hobby.

73,
Fred/N0AZZ

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ralph Parker
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 1:27 PM
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

>Your brain IS best at CW decoding...
Amen to that, brother!

>...Let CW Skimmer decode for you...
Only if a non-brain decoder is good enough to read the DX station at 28 wpm
(or better) when he says "pse na qrx nw ja up" and you understand what that
means, and not keep calling incessantly because the decoder hasn't displayed
your call.

Sorry for the rant, but there are w too many people calling out of
turn these days. I suspect that non-brain decoders are the reason.
There's only one way to get the Carnegie Hall.

Ralph, VE7XF

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[Phil Hystad]

I can see that someone might want to use a K3 CW decode or a computer decode 
program like CW Skimmer when operating a contest.  After you set things up, 
very little real CW skill is necessary to be a CW contest player.  Indeed, many 
probably do just that.

Ultimately of course, the software will get better and the instance of the 
human operator will no longer be necessary.  Some future glorified computer 
program can play the game all by itself.  You can even schedule your computer 
program to startup when the contest schedules begin and stop when they end.  Of 
course, total control of your rig by remote is included.

Cool -- just think, I could be off doing more interesting things while 
operating a contest from my Mac hosted computer application.  I could be a high 
scorer -- I could win!  I would be the contesting CW champ.  Or, at least my 
program would be but no one need know that.

The best part is that during the contest and during all those automated hours 
or cranking up my score at 2.7 GHz CPU speeds, I can be out in the wilds nearby 
with my wire antenna thrown into the nearest tree and operating QRP CW from my 
KX3 using my Begali paddle.

73, phil, K7PEH
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[Fred Smith]

Yes and the good ones like Elecrafts will decode your call sign quickly as
well no need to learn it either.

73,
Fred/N0AZZ

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Larry Libsch
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 12:16 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best


 Your brain IS best at CW decoding - but only after you've spent
many hundreds of hours training it. You can work CW DX NOW by getting a
Keyer and learning one thing in CW - the sound of your callsign.  Let CW
Skimmer decode for you. It's not as good as your brain, but this setup will
have you working CW at any speed without dedicating hundreds of hours you
might wish to spend otherwise. CW is just another digital mode. Decoders
will improve. Get in the CW game now.

 K4KGG,Larry

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[Andrew Moore]

While we're on the subject of computer-based CW learning and operating -
another perhaps lesser-known setup that may be worth checking out is the
CW-over-Internet approach using FLDigi and Mumble software, which provides
multi-user, high audio quality, low latency CW over the net via a server.

Some of the great advantages of this system for those wanting to build CW
speed is that it's available 24/7 and eliminates the dependency on good
band conditions, propagation or being tied to your shack. You can have
"live" QSOs in near perfect conditions pretty much whenever you want it,
which is a huge help in building skill and speed.

Chuck/AA0HW has put loads of research into tweaking the setup for best
results, providing ways to interface your paddle and key to the system,
generating pleasant sounding sidetones, etc. Users on Chuck's server tend
to focus on QRQ but everyone's welcome. Chuck has created videos detailing
how to set up the software.

Again, a very different experience than sitting in front of a radio, but
can be highly enjoyable even for seasoned CW ops.

For more info:

http://qrqcwnet.ning.com/

--Andrew, NV1B
maineware.net
..

On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 3:56 PM, Larry Libsch  wrote:

>
>  I respect the hams that have spent many hours developing and
> improving their CW skills ...
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[Lance Collister, W7GJ]

Hello Stephen,

It sounds inspirational!  I have never found CW very restful or been able to 
copy in 
my head.   I think it all started when I first learned CW the wrong wayit 
took me 
two tries to get the 13 wpm General class license back in the 60's.  And I was 
sweating bullets as I typed out the letters on a borrowed laptop computer 
during my 
Extra license test (I can't hand write 20 wpm)!  What is the secret (if there 
is a 
secret) to learning how to copy in your head?  In lieu of mentally copying, is 
there 
some cheap (free) program to type out what you are receiving and then to use 
the 
keyboard to send CW too?  My keyboard speed isn't really super duper, but it 
sure is 
a LOT better than my handwriting ability!!!

I have just bee introduced to N1MM, and that seems to work great with my K3 and 
laptop computer, but it really seems geared for quick openings or working 
pileups.  
Is there something better suited to casual CW QSO's?

VY 73, Lance

On 11/8/2012 7:23 PM, Stephen Roberts wrote:
> Well I've been at it for about 8 months now and have worked only CW (about 
> 1100 QSOs to date) since I got my ticket . I'm just beginning to be able to 
> put down the pen and copy in my head. Sure I miss a couple of words here and 
> there, but for the most part I'm getting much better. I think I'm at a 
> transition point and finding that even though I don't have to write down copy 
> I find it somewhat reassuring and often do it anyway so I don't miss 
> anything. Of course if the WPM goes much faster than about 22 WPM, I can't 
> write fast enough anyway so I have to really focus and let the old brain have 
> at it. I think once I hit the one year mark, I should be in pretty good shape 
> and expect to be able to send and copy at about 30 wpm...not that I have a 
> need for speed, but it's just an observation on my progress during my first 
> year as a ham. It's certainly more relaxing to just sit there and close my 
> eyes and listen rather than frantically trying to write down everything!
>
> 73
> Steve
> W1SFR
>
>
>
> On Nov 8, 2012, at 1:52 PM, Andrew Moore wrote:
>
>> Hope anyone who's interested in getting into CW isn't put off by the
>> thought of spending hundreds of hours to train or being bored by just
>> another digital mode. Larry is 50% right here. I mean that in a positive
>> way (i.e. not "50% wrong"!)
>>
>> To say that CW is just another digital mode, or that it takes hundreds of
>> hours to train, isn't necessarily correct.
>>
>> Some of the most exciting moments I had doing CW were when I was studying
>> code before I got my ticket, (barely) copying 5 WPM in Mass. from a station
>> in Florida which seemed like pulling magic out of the air. At that point I
>> had only about 24 hours of CW training. When I got the ticket, my first QSO
>> was on a straight key from Tenn. to Washington state (still have the QSL
>> card, N7CEY!) was equally thrilling, largely because it was hands-on
>> (Internet wasn't even mainstream yet).
>>
>> It's a very different *experience* than having a computer do it for you.
>>
>> I agree with Larry's recommendation to just jump in and immerse yourself in
>> the mode, in whatever form. One way isn't better than the other. For
>> upcoming CW enthusiasts, only by trying the different methods available to
>> you - digital or analog makes no difference - will you find what you like
>> and what you can do without. Find your niche and enjoy it; it's YOUR niche
>> and there's a lot of fun out there when you find it. Decode-by-brain comes
>> quick for some, especially when they enjoy it. And then, training is
>> ongoing - so yes, it can certainly require hundreds of hours, but for some
>> those hours seem like a thrill not a chore.
>>
>> --Andrew, NV1B
>> maineware.net
>> ..
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Larry Libsch  wrote:
>>
>>>  Your brain IS best at CW decoding - but only after you've spent
>>> many hundreds of hours training it. You can work CW DX NOW by getting a
>>> Keyer and learning one thing in CW - the sound of your callsign.  Let CW
>>> Skimmer decode for you. It's not as good as your brain, but this setup
>>> will have you working CW at any speed without dedicating hundreds of
>>> hours you might wish to spend otherwise. CW is just another digital
>>> mode. Decoders will improve. Get in the CW game now.
>>>
>>>  K4KGG,Larry
>>>
>>>
>> __
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[Larry Libsch]

 I respect the hams that have spent many hours developing and 
improving their CW skills ... until they attempt to discourage hams who 
choose to come at CW with a different approach. The conjecture that 
those of us using decoders cause more problems than those audibly 
decoding is just that - a conjecture. Inexperience is very likely a more 
important factor.   Please note that many accomplished CW ops use keyers 
when it's to their advantage - during CW contests.  Software-generated 
code has no "fist"and is therefore more readable.  And many CW 
contesters  can achieve higher speeds with accuracy using a keyer and 
software than they may be able to do by hand.

 Please note that the Elecraft team, among others, continues to 
work to improve the CW decoding capability of the K3. Wayne is offering  
a beta firmware version with improved CW decoding ability right now. Not 
liking software CW encoders and decoders is not going to make them go 
away. They are the future of CW. JT65 can decode inaudble signals now. 
The only question is when software will be better at decoding CW than 
the human brain.

CW is for all hams. It doesn't belong just to a select group who 
learned how to key it by hand. If you want to limit your experience of 
ham radio by spending all your radio time learning CW, by all means do 
it. But there is so much else to explore in ham radio: RTTY, satellites, 
antennas, towers, DXing, contests, portable operation, equipment 
construction and much, much more. Use the available tools. Exploring 
this digital mode with software may make sense for you.

 K4KGG, Larry

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[Ralph Parker]

>Your brain IS best at CW decoding...
Amen to that, brother!

>...Let CW Skimmer decode for you...
Only if a non-brain decoder is good enough to read the DX station at 28 wpm
(or better) when he says "pse na qrx nw ja up" and you understand what that
means, and not keep calling incessantly because the decoder hasn't
displayed your call.

Sorry for the rant, but there are w too many people calling out of
turn these days. I suspect that non-brain decoders are the reason.
There's only one way to get the Carnegie Hall.

Ralph, VE7XF

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[Stephen Roberts]

Well I've been at it for about 8 months now and have worked only CW (about 1100 
QSOs to date) since I got my ticket . I'm just beginning to be able to put down 
the pen and copy in my head. Sure I miss a couple of words here and there, but 
for the most part I'm getting much better. I think I'm at a transition point 
and finding that even though I don't have to write down copy I find it somewhat 
reassuring and often do it anyway so I don't miss anything. Of course if the 
WPM goes much faster than about 22 WPM, I can't write fast enough anyway so I 
have to really focus and let the old brain have at it. I think once I hit the 
one year mark, I should be in pretty good shape and expect to be able to send 
and copy at about 30 wpm...not that I have a need for speed, but it's just an 
observation on my progress during my first year as a ham. It's certainly more 
relaxing to just sit there and close my eyes and listen rather than frantically 
trying to write down everything!

73
Steve
W1SFR



On Nov 8, 2012, at 1:52 PM, Andrew Moore wrote:

> Hope anyone who's interested in getting into CW isn't put off by the
> thought of spending hundreds of hours to train or being bored by just
> another digital mode. Larry is 50% right here. I mean that in a positive
> way (i.e. not "50% wrong"!)
> 
> To say that CW is just another digital mode, or that it takes hundreds of
> hours to train, isn't necessarily correct.
> 
> Some of the most exciting moments I had doing CW were when I was studying
> code before I got my ticket, (barely) copying 5 WPM in Mass. from a station
> in Florida which seemed like pulling magic out of the air. At that point I
> had only about 24 hours of CW training. When I got the ticket, my first QSO
> was on a straight key from Tenn. to Washington state (still have the QSL
> card, N7CEY!) was equally thrilling, largely because it was hands-on
> (Internet wasn't even mainstream yet).
> 
> It's a very different *experience* than having a computer do it for you.
> 
> I agree with Larry's recommendation to just jump in and immerse yourself in
> the mode, in whatever form. One way isn't better than the other. For
> upcoming CW enthusiasts, only by trying the different methods available to
> you - digital or analog makes no difference - will you find what you like
> and what you can do without. Find your niche and enjoy it; it's YOUR niche
> and there's a lot of fun out there when you find it. Decode-by-brain comes
> quick for some, especially when they enjoy it. And then, training is
> ongoing - so yes, it can certainly require hundreds of hours, but for some
> those hours seem like a thrill not a chore.
> 
> --Andrew, NV1B
> maineware.net
> ..
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Larry Libsch  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Your brain IS best at CW decoding - but only after you've spent
>> many hundreds of hours training it. You can work CW DX NOW by getting a
>> Keyer and learning one thing in CW - the sound of your callsign.  Let CW
>> Skimmer decode for you. It's not as good as your brain, but this setup
>> will have you working CW at any speed without dedicating hundreds of
>> hours you might wish to spend otherwise. CW is just another digital
>> mode. Decoders will improve. Get in the CW game now.
>> 
>> K4KGG,Larry
>> 
>> 
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> 
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[stan levandowski]

For many of us CW is an art form, a skill worth those hundreds of hours 
of practice, and a connection to wireless history.  Fortunately, amateur 
radio is a broad enough service/hobby that it can support all the 
opinions we may have on this subject.

On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Larry Libsch wrote:

  CW is just another digital mode.
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[Larry Libsch]

 Your brain IS best at CW decoding - but only after you've spent 
many hundreds of hours training it. You can work CW DX NOW by getting a 
Keyer and learning one thing in CW - the sound of your callsign.  Let CW 
Skimmer decode for you. It's not as good as your brain, but this setup 
will have you working CW at any speed without dedicating hundreds of 
hours you might wish to spend otherwise. CW is just another digital 
mode. Decoders will improve. Get in the CW game now.

 K4KGG,Larry

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[Andrew Moore]

And another great resource, if you want to build your own practice files,
is ebook2cw,written by Fabian Kurz, DJ1YFK.  Converts text to really nice
sounding CW, with control over rise/fall times, pitch, timing, etc...
Command line version works great on Mac OS X, and I believe it also runs on
Windows and Linux.

I use it frequently to convert chunks of practice text to mp3 files, burn
it on a disc and practice by listening to it while mobile.

http://fkurz.net/ham/ebook2cw.html

--Andrew, NV1B
maineware.net
..


On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 8:05 AM, Barry  wrote:

> Another great site for improving CW proficiency (at ANY level) is
> http://lcwo.net/
> Barry W2UP
>
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Re: [Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[Barry]

Another great site for improving CW proficiency (at ANY level) is
http://lcwo.net/
Barry W2UP



--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/CW-Decoding-Your-Brain-is-best-tp7565244p7565245.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

[Elecraft] CW Decoding - Your Brain is best

[Peter Chamalian]

If you are using a CW decoder but would like to learn or improve your own CW
capabilities, I invite you to look at www.cwops.org/cwacademy.html

 

The Academy is offered by CWops and is free to all.

Pete, W1RM

 

__
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html