Re: [Elecraft] Dusting off the old K3 & Considering a KAT3A

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

What an "antenna tuner" does for you depends upon where you install it. 

There are two places where a low SWR is important: the load the finals in
the rig "see" and the load the transmission line "sees". In most HAM
installations the load the finals see is probably the most critical because
if it is not within specs the transmitter may shut down or the final
amplifier devices may self-destruct. Fortunately, Elecraft rigs have
protection against self destruction by reducing the output power as needed
but having the power reduce automatically is seldom desirable to the
operator. 

Before about the 1960's, the output tuning networks in Ham transmitters were
adjustable to provide a decently-low SWR to the finals with a wide variety
of loads. Back then with vacuum tube amps it was common to "dip the plate
current and adjust the loading for rated plate current at the dip". That
adjusted the output network for a proper match to the finals, but required
adjustment when QSYing. Then "no tune" rigs appeared which met the more
stringent FCC requirements for suppression of spurious emissions but
required a proper load: typically 50 ohms non-reactive.

A lot of antennas did NOT provide a "proper load" to the rig, so the use of
antenna tuners became popular. Many rigs built the antenna tuner into the
rig itself to ensure the final amplifier transistors (or tubes) always saw
an acceptable load. That is the function of all of the built-in ATUs in the
Elecraft rigs. 

That protects the finals in the rig but did nothing to help the load the
transmission line "sees". As the transmission line sees a higher and higher
SWR, its losses increase. That load is determined by the antenna. And, when
it is not practical to adjust the antenna for a good load at all
frequencies, remote antenna tuners have become more common when transmission
line losses are too large. Many, if not most, Hams simply live with the
increased transmission line losses up to the point where their transmission
line fails by being over-stressed with the excessive currents or excessive
voltages produced by the standing waves on the transmission line. This
occurs most commonly in the coaxial lines used by most Hams at QRO powers.  

73, Ron AC7AC

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Drew AF2Z
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 7:17 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Dusting off the old K3 & Considering a KAT3A

An antenna current meter is pretty handy. I have a box of parts on my desk
waiting to become one. At least when it shows zero current I'll be able to
figure out pretty quickly that I forgot to connect the antenna, hehhe..

73,
Drew
AF2Z


On 08/31/17 18:09, Bill Frantz wrote:
> Sorry Jim. You are indeed correct about the feedline SWR. While there 
> are other SWRs within the radio, they aren't of much interest.
> 
> However, these radios do report a SWR in the UI, and that is what I 
> was referring to. Since a naive user might look at that figure and 
> say, "The SWR is 2. The antenna must be good.", it is important to 
> know that the tuners can produce a low figure on that meter with 
> nothing connected to the antenna connector.
> 
> 73 Bill AE6JV
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] Dusting off the old K3 & Considering a KAT3A

[Drew AF2Z]

An antenna current meter is pretty handy. I have a box of parts on my 
desk waiting to become one. At least when it shows zero current I'll be 
able to figure out pretty quickly that I forgot to connect the antenna, 
hehhe..


73,
Drew
AF2Z


On 08/31/17 18:09, Bill Frantz wrote:
Sorry Jim. You are indeed correct about the feedline SWR. While there 
are other SWRs within the radio, they aren't of much interest.


However, these radios do report a SWR in the UI, and that is what I was 
referring to. Since a naive user might look at that figure and say, "The 
SWR is 2. The antenna must be good.", it is important to know that the 
tuners can produce a low figure on that meter with nothing connected to 
the antenna connector.


73 Bill AE6JV



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Re: [Elecraft] Dusting off the old K3 & Considering a KAT3A

[Richard Fjeld]

I snipped as much as I could to shorten this up.   See below.

I think the problem lies in part that early manuals taught antenna theory by 
starting out with a random wire and a simple L tuner as you say, at the antenna 
end of the transmission line.  The purpose was to add inductance or capacitance 
as needed to attempt to resonate the wire.  So, the term “tune the antenna” was 
used. And calling the matching devices  ‘tuners’ doesn’t help correct the 
terminology either.

Rich, n0ce




From: Bob McGraw K4TAX<mailto:rmcg...@blomand.net>
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 6:36 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net<mailto:elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Dusting off the old K3 & Considering a KAT3A

>
> On 8/30/17 at 11:25 PM, j...@audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) wrote:
>
>> Please don't perpetuate that myth, Bill. Tuners do NOT reduce the SWR
>> unless they're at the antenna end of a transmission line.
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Re: [Elecraft] Dusting off the old K3 & Considering a KAT3A

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

One point to consider,  anytime one inserts a tuner in line at the 
transmitter, additional loss is also introduced. Additionally the SWR 
and related loss on the feedline is not reduced.   Some tuners, 
depending on load and frequency, can introduce as much as 25% power 
loss.   In many cases, a 2:1 SWR at the radio is better than using a 
tuner to show a 1:1 SWR at the radio due to added loss in the tuner and 
the feed line loss remains the same.



73

Bob, K4TAX




On 8/31/2017 5:09 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
Sorry Jim. You are indeed correct about the feedline SWR. While there 
are other SWRs within the radio, they aren't of much interest.


However, these radios do report a SWR in the UI, and that is what I 
was referring to. Since a naive user might look at that figure and 
say, "The SWR is 2. The antenna must be good.", it is important to 
know that the tuners can produce a low figure on that meter with 
nothing connected to the antenna connector.


73 Bill AE6JV

On 8/30/17 at 11:25 PM, j...@audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) wrote:

Please don't perpetuate that myth, Bill. Tuners do NOT reduce the SWR 
unless they're at the antenna end of a transmission line. The SWR 
exists on the transmission line, and it is determined ENTIRELY by the 
match between the transmission line and the load.


What tuners at the rig do is get the rig to put power into the tuner 
(and hopefully, onto the transmission line).  If the SWR is high 
without the tuner, it is equally high WITH the tuner. Depending on 
the cable, the frequency, and the SWR, much of the power that the rig 
puts into the tuner gets to the transmission line, but is turned into 
heat by the SWR in the line and doesn't get to the antenna.


A better way to talk and think about this is to say that the tuner 
can match a wide variety of loads to the transmitter sufficiently 
well that the rig can pump the maximum power from its output 
terminals, whether it's feeding a short wet string or a nice long 
wire we've launched into a tree. And if there's no transmission line, 
SWR has no meaning!  So SWR is the wrong way to talk and think about it.


73, Jim K9YC

On 8/30/2017 10:15 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
My experience with the tuners in both the K3 and KX3 are that they 
will reach an acceptable SWR with anything. I always check the 
antenna when they take a long time to reach a match. (I.e. lots of 
clicking.) Most of the time I find I am trying to match an open 
antenna connection.



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408-356-8506   | steadily worse. Now we have touchscreen keyboards.
www.pwpconsult.com | Can we make something even worse?

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Re: [Elecraft] Dusting off the old K3 & Considering a KAT3A

[Fred Jensen]

Of all the terms and jargon in ham radio, "Standing Wave Ratio" has to 
be at least in the top 5 misunderstood ones, and maybe even top 3.  It 
didn't even really enter the ham vocabulary until the middle of the last 
century.


Helping a ham trying to use an 11 m vertical-ish wire on 80 m, was 
instructive.  Rig was a KX3 with ATU.  ATU indicated about 1.3:1 SWR, 
but no contacts.  EZNEC4 and TLW revealed the "gozinto" end of the coax 
looked like about 0.4+j ohms


The totally misnamed "Antenna Tuner" matched that to what the radio 
thought was roughly 50 + j0 ohms [L-networks are good at that].  
However, that network, plus I-squared R loss in the connectors, cable, 
and wire were eating almost all the power. Ultimately, center loading 
the wire raised the RR to about 20 ohms, lowered the reactance, and the 
ATU still reported about 1.3:1 SWR.  Only now, there were contacts now 
being made.


My KAT2 will match a 1 foot RG-58 jumper on 15 meters to about 1.5:1 
however I won't make many, if any, Q's.


73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

/31/2017 3:09 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
However, these radios do report a SWR in the UI, and that is what I 
was referring to. Since a naive user might look at that figure and 
say, "The SWR is 2. The antenna must be good.", it is important to 
know that the tuners can produce a low figure on that meter with 
nothing connected to the antenna connector.


73 Bill AE6JV


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Re: [Elecraft] Dusting off the old K3 & Considering a KAT3A

[Bill Frantz]

Sorry Jim. You are indeed correct about the feedline SWR. While 
there are other SWRs within the radio, they aren't of much interest.


However, these radios do report a SWR in the UI, and that is 
what I was referring to. Since a naive user might look at that 
figure and say, "The SWR is 2. The antenna must be good.", it is 
important to know that the tuners can produce a low figure on 
that meter with nothing connected to the antenna connector.


73 Bill AE6JV

On 8/30/17 at 11:25 PM, j...@audiosystemsgroup.com (Jim Brown) wrote:

Please don't perpetuate that myth, Bill.  Tuners do NOT reduce 
the SWR unless they're at the antenna end of a transmission 
line. The SWR exists on the transmission line, and it is 
determined ENTIRELY by the match between the transmission line 
and the load.


What tuners at the rig do is get the rig to put power into the 
tuner (and hopefully, onto the transmission line).  If the SWR 
is high without the tuner, it is equally high WITH the tuner. 
Depending on the cable, the frequency, and the SWR, much of the 
power that the rig puts into the tuner gets to the transmission 
line, but is turned into heat by the SWR in the line and 
doesn't get to the antenna.


A better way to talk and think about this is to say that the 
tuner can match a wide variety of loads to the transmitter 
sufficiently well that the rig can pump the maximum power from 
its output terminals, whether it's feeding a short wet string 
or a nice long wire we've launched into a tree. And if there's 
no transmission line, SWR has no meaning!  So SWR is the wrong 
way to talk and think about it.


73, Jim K9YC

On 8/30/2017 10:15 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
My experience with the tuners in both the K3 and KX3 are that 
they will reach an acceptable SWR with anything. I always 
check the antenna when they take a long time to reach a match. 
(I.e. lots of clicking.) Most of the time I find I am trying 
to match an open antenna connection.



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www.pwpconsult.com | Can we make something even worse?

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Re: [Elecraft] Dusting off the old K3 & Considering a KAT3A

[Dave Fugleberg]

Jim, I think that last point is often overloaded and bears repeating. With
rigs like the KX2 or KX3, it's a common practice to connect the radiating
element directly to the rig and put the other end as high as possible. In
that case, 'SWR' is kinda meaningless, as the built in 'ATU' is actually
matching the output to the impedance at the antenna feed point.
The KX2 does this amazingly well, and I'm glad I sprung for that option.
In any other case, I tend to shy away from built in tuners or tuners in the
shack, and instead use a remote automatic coupler at the feed point (I use
the SGC 230 at home).
Good conversation.

On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 1:25 AM Jim Brown  wrote:

> Please don't perpetuate that myth, Bill.  Tuners do NOT reduce the SWR
> unless they're at the antenna end of a transmission line. The SWR exists
> on the transmission line, and it is determined ENTIRELY by the match
> between the transmission line and the load.
>
> What tuners at the rig do is get the rig to put power into the tuner
> (and hopefully, onto the transmission line).  If the SWR is high without
> the tuner, it is equally high WITH the tuner. Depending on the cable,
> the frequency, and the SWR, much of the power that the rig puts into the
> tuner gets to the transmission line, but is turned into heat by the SWR
> in the line and doesn't get to the antenna.
>
> A better way to talk and think about this is to say that the tuner can
> match a wide variety of loads to the transmitter sufficiently well that
> the rig can pump the maximum power from its output terminals, whether
> it's feeding a short wet string or a nice long wire we've launched into
> a tree. And if there's no transmission line, SWR has no meaning!  So SWR
> is the wrong way to talk and think about it.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> On 8/30/2017 10:15 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
> > My experience with the tuners in both the K3 and KX3 are that they
> > will reach an acceptable SWR with anything. I always check the antenna
> > when they take a long time to reach a match. (I.e. lots of clicking.)
> > Most of the time I find I am trying to match an open antenna connection.
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Dusting off the old K3 & Considering a KAT3A

[Jim Brown]

Please don't perpetuate that myth, Bill.  Tuners do NOT reduce the SWR 
unless they're at the antenna end of a transmission line. The SWR exists 
on the transmission line, and it is determined ENTIRELY by the match 
between the transmission line and the load.


What tuners at the rig do is get the rig to put power into the tuner 
(and hopefully, onto the transmission line).  If the SWR is high without 
the tuner, it is equally high WITH the tuner. Depending on the cable, 
the frequency, and the SWR, much of the power that the rig puts into the 
tuner gets to the transmission line, but is turned into heat by the SWR 
in the line and doesn't get to the antenna.


A better way to talk and think about this is to say that the tuner can 
match a wide variety of loads to the transmitter sufficiently well that 
the rig can pump the maximum power from its output terminals, whether 
it's feeding a short wet string or a nice long wire we've launched into 
a tree. And if there's no transmission line, SWR has no meaning!  So SWR 
is the wrong way to talk and think about it.


73, Jim K9YC

On 8/30/2017 10:15 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
My experience with the tuners in both the K3 and KX3 are that they 
will reach an acceptable SWR with anything. I always check the antenna 
when they take a long time to reach a match. (I.e. lots of clicking.) 
Most of the time I find I am trying to match an open antenna connection. 



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Re: [Elecraft] Dusting off the old K3 & Considering a KAT3A

[Bill Frantz]

My experience with the tuners in both the K3 and KX3 are that 
they will reach an acceptable SWR with anything. I always check 
the antenna when they take a long time to reach a match. (I.e. 
lots of clicking.) Most of the time I find I am trying to match 
an open antenna connection.


73 Bill AE6JV

On 8/30/17 at 9:15 AM, k2vco@gmail.com (Victor Rosenthal 
4X6GP) wrote:


The KAT3A will make it possible to load almost anything. 
Definitely worthwhile. Even with antennas like the ones below.

---
Bill Frantz| Concurrency is hard. 12 out  | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | 10 programmers get it wrong. | 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com |- Jeff Frantz | Los Gatos, 
CA 95032


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Re: [Elecraft] Dusting off the old K3 & Considering a KAT3A

[Mike Furrey]

When I moved from Houston and house with beams to a Florida apartment but with 
a big tree outside my door, I ordered the KAT3A. The KAT3 made easy work of my 
stealth antenna on 40-6 meters.
Yes, I have a manual tuner and yes I have an LDG 200Pro auto-tuner but the 
KAT3A was a huge convenience. Go for it.
73, Mike WA5POK
 

On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 10:21 AM, Joseph M. Durnal 
 wrote:
 

 Elecraft Operators,

I have been off the HF airwaves for several years.  Those darned antenna
restrictions really take the fun out of it.  But after helping staff the
K2BSA operation at the Boy Scout National Jamboree this summer I've really
been itching to get back on the air from home.

I have to come to grips that I'll never have a nice balanced antenna and
that I'm pretty much limited to random runs of wire here and there that can
be well hidden. Right now I have a manual MFJ tuner, but I know that got
old when changing bands or moving from the CW area to phone on 40 meters.
I also have some common second story grounding issues.  I'm wondering if
the KAT3A would be a good investment for my K3 given my situation.

73 de Joseph M. Durnal - NE3R
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Re: [Elecraft] Dusting off the old K3 & Considering a KAT3A

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

In a recent QST article by Kai KE4PT he describes a nice antenna for portable 
operation.  

As to 2nd floor stations and grounding, I've operated mine in that 
configuration for some 20 years.  There is no "station ground".  I do have 3rd 
pin ground in place and all equipment is  bonded to the station power supply as 
the common point. 

Bob, K4TAX


Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 30, 2017, at 10:47 AM, Don Wilhelm  wrote:
> 
> Joseph,
> 
> The KAT3A has a wide tuning range, and will normally handle a 10:1 SWR.
> If your SWR range is less than that, you will find operating with the KAT3A 
> much more pleasant than dealing with a manual tuner.
> 
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
> 
>> On 8/30/2017 11:19 AM, Joseph M. Durnal wrote:
>> 
>> I have to come to grips that I'll never have a nice balanced antenna and
>> that I'm pretty much limited to random runs of wire here and there that can
>> be well hidden. Right now I have a manual MFJ tuner, but I know that got
>> old when changing bands or moving from the CW area to phone on 40 meters.
>> I also have some common second story grounding issues.  I'm wondering if
>> the KAT3A would be a good investment for my K3 given my situation.
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Re: [Elecraft] Dusting off the old K3 & Considering a KAT3A

[Victor Rosenthal 4X6GP]

The KAT3A will make it possible to load almost anything. Definitely 
worthwhile. Even with antennas like the ones below.


You might think about an end-fed multiband antenna like this one:


It will still work if the wire is bent in numerous places. It might fit 
your "random" places.


If that's too big, here's a 40-10m version that's smaller:


I'm a big partisan of balanced antennas, but if the option is not to 
operate...


73,
Victor, 4X6GP
Rehovot, Israel
Formerly K2VCO
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
On 30 Aug 2017 18:19, Joseph M. Durnal wrote:

Elecraft Operators,

I have been off the HF airwaves for several years.  Those darned antenna
restrictions really take the fun out of it.  But after helping staff the
K2BSA operation at the Boy Scout National Jamboree this summer I've really
been itching to get back on the air from home.

I have to come to grips that I'll never have a nice balanced antenna and
that I'm pretty much limited to random runs of wire here and there that can
be well hidden. Right now I have a manual MFJ tuner, but I know that got
old when changing bands or moving from the CW area to phone on 40 meters.
I also have some common second story grounding issues.  I'm wondering if
the KAT3A would be a good investment for my K3 given my situation.

73 de Joseph M. Durnal - NE3R

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Re: [Elecraft] Dusting off the old K3 & Considering a KAT3A

[Don Wilhelm]

Joseph,

The KAT3A has a wide tuning range, and will normally handle a 10:1 SWR.
If your SWR range is less than that, you will find operating with the 
KAT3A much more pleasant than dealing with a manual tuner.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/30/2017 11:19 AM, Joseph M. Durnal wrote:


I have to come to grips that I'll never have a nice balanced antenna and
that I'm pretty much limited to random runs of wire here and there that can
be well hidden. Right now I have a manual MFJ tuner, but I know that got
old when changing bands or moving from the CW area to phone on 40 meters.
I also have some common second story grounding issues.  I'm wondering if
the KAT3A would be a good investment for my K3 given my situation.

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Re: [Elecraft] Dusting off the old K3 & Considering a KAT3A

[Ross Primrose]

If the cable run(s) between the K3 & the antenna(s) is fairly short, 
it'd be a great choice.  If you've got long runs, being able to tune at 
the antenna might work better, but might also be harder to keep out of 
sight...


73, Ross N4RP

On 8/30/2017 11:19 AM, Joseph M. Durnal wrote:

Elecraft Operators,

I have been off the HF airwaves for several years.  Those darned antenna
restrictions really take the fun out of it.  But after helping staff the
K2BSA operation at the Boy Scout National Jamboree this summer I've really
been itching to get back on the air from home.

I have to come to grips that I'll never have a nice balanced antenna and
that I'm pretty much limited to random runs of wire here and there that can
be well hidden. Right now I have a manual MFJ tuner, but I know that got
old when changing bands or moving from the CW area to phone on 40 meters.
I also have some common second story grounding issues.  I'm wondering if
the KAT3A would be a good investment for my K3 given my situation.

73 de Joseph M. Durnal - NE3R
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--
FCC Section 97.313(a) “At all times, an amateur station must use the minimum 
transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired communications.”

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[Elecraft] Dusting off the old K3 & Considering a KAT3A

[Joseph M. Durnal]

Elecraft Operators,

I have been off the HF airwaves for several years.  Those darned antenna
restrictions really take the fun out of it.  But after helping staff the
K2BSA operation at the Boy Scout National Jamboree this summer I've really
been itching to get back on the air from home.

I have to come to grips that I'll never have a nice balanced antenna and
that I'm pretty much limited to random runs of wire here and there that can
be well hidden. Right now I have a manual MFJ tuner, but I know that got
old when changing bands or moving from the CW area to phone on 40 meters.
I also have some common second story grounding issues.  I'm wondering if
the KAT3A would be a good investment for my K3 given my situation.

73 de Joseph M. Durnal - NE3R
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