Re: [Elecraft] Grounds... I know, I know... its a Dead issue BUT... (no Pun)
I know of more than one homeowner who was planting flowers around the house and ran into the silly rod sticking in the ground and had her husband rip it out and clip that wire off. (The good home inspectors look for that -- if a buyer has one do a survey.) I've also seen older homes where the water pipe was the ground via a strap or clamp on the pipe to a garden bib near the panel, but the water supply pipe rusted through and was replaced with PVC anywhere it contacted the earth. And then there's the ubiquitous Teflon plumber's tape and other compounds used on the threads of joints. They sometimes do an excellent job of isolating one section of pipe from the next and possibly the earth. (Used to be a big issue when we commonly used water pipe grounds for RF grounds too.) Ron AC7AC -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Robert Harmon Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 5:08 PM To: Phil Townsend Cc: Elecraft Reflector Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Grounds... I know, I know... its a Dead issue BUT... (no Pun) Phil, My house is about the same vintage. I had the same situation, no ground rod at the service entrance. I put in a ground rod myself. It may or may not have had an adequate ground before but I figured putting in a redundant ground with the ground rod would be a good idea, plus it brings it up to current code requirements. Bob K6UJ On Apr 6, 2011, at 8:44 AM, Phil Townsend wrote: I really hate to bring it up again... But hear me out: My A/C service entrance does not have a ground rod. My house was built about 25 years ago.' I pulled the service front panel and found the following: All the grounds and neutrals are bonded to the metal chassis as they are supposed to be. But there is no wire for a connection to a ground ROD! It looks like they used a solid metal pipe that houses the big A/C wire inside of this pipe. This pipe IS connected to the service entrance by some metal gland nuts. The 2 1/2 pipe goes outside of the house and is buried underground. It goes off to a transformer that is about 100 yards away. So my question: IS this pipe MY Ground rod? Don't follow My Tweets http://twitter.com/PhilTownsend __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Grounds... I know, I know... its a Dead issue BUT... (no Pun)
I was confused when I couldn't find a rod outside but later found one inside the house through the concrete slab. It's a UFER ground. Might want to look inside. Jim ab3cv __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Grounds... I know, I know... its a Dead issue BUT... (no Pun)
Hi Ron, My favorite is my elder son's first house, an elegant small 1920's dwelling that still had a lot of vintage wiring, which would exhibit strange lamp intensity changes. The short version of the story is that it used the iron natural gas line as ground, and that was connected from the main fuse panel in the house. There simply was no external power ground, in spite of the fact it had been inspected by registered inspector as part of buying the house. The power company told us to turn off the power to the houise, undo the connection to the gas pipe immediately and were out there the same day to install a code power entrance ground. When they had finished, not only had the power ground been missing, but the neutral from the pole was excessively resistive, and they had to replace the drop from the pole. Among other things this had been driving DirecTV nuts, as the antenna had a ground from beneath the antenna which would have been carrying the neutral imbalance. There was a long list of wierdnesses that disappeared after the power company fixed the ground and the neutral. Power grounding is not to be messed with. Best to argue, read, argue, and then finally understand. Unless we have checked ours out ourselves from an advantage of informed competence, we are at the mercy of whatever left my son without a ground and a neutral. 73, Guy. On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire r...@cobi.biz wrote: I know of more than one homeowner who was planting flowers around the house and ran into the silly rod sticking in the ground and had her husband rip it out and clip that wire off. (The good home inspectors look for that -- if a buyer has one do a survey.) I've also seen older homes where the water pipe was the ground via a strap or clamp on the pipe to a garden bib near the panel, but the water supply pipe rusted through and was replaced with PVC anywhere it contacted the earth. And then there's the ubiquitous Teflon plumber's tape and other compounds used on the threads of joints. They sometimes do an excellent job of isolating one section of pipe from the next and possibly the earth. (Used to be a big issue when we commonly used water pipe grounds for RF grounds too.) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Grounds... I know, I know... its a Dead issue BUT... (no Pun)
In the USA electrical utilities are often not subject to NEC instead they have their own code and it often varies region to region, state to state. I've noticed recently that in the topics that reference the NEC there's often no mention that many municipalities/counties/states adopt and enforce their own electrical code. While often based upon the NEC many of these 'local' codes contain variances that might surprise so I'd like to remind everyone (in the USA) that while the NEC is a good starting point when approaching a code issue it may not apply to them. Phil's issue with a service entrance ground is a good example. His electrical utility may be well within their right to use the buried service drop raceway as the grounding electrode for his service. I'd suggest contacting the utility company for clarification on this. 73, Gary N6LRV -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Clyde Washburn Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 9:07 AM To: 'Phil Townsend'; 'Elecraft Reflector' Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Grounds... I know,I know... its a Dead issue BUT... (no Pun) According to the NEC a buried pipe with corrosion protection over 8ft long is an acceptable grounding electrode, with a listed hierarchy of preference for different types of pipes. Metallic water pipes are 1st on the list. Normally other pipes are used only when the water pipe is non-metallic. _ Clyde Washburn, K2UE 82 Lasalle Pkwy Victor, NY 14564-9610 585-317-7006 k...@rochester.rr.com -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Phil Townsend Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 11:44 AM To: Elecraft Reflector Subject: [Elecraft] Grounds... I know, I know... its a Dead issue BUT... (no Pun) I really hate to bring it up again... But hear me out: My A/C service entrance does not have a ground rod. My house was built about 25 years ago.' I pulled the service front panel and found the following: All the grounds and neutrals are bonded to the metal chassis as they are supposed to be. But there is no wire for a connection to a ground ROD! It looks like they used a solid metal pipe that houses the big A/C wire inside of this pipe. This pipe IS connected to the service entrance by some metal gland nuts. The 2 1/2 pipe goes outside of the house and is buried underground. It goes off to a transformer that is about 100 yards away. So my question: IS this pipe MY Ground rod? Don't follow My Tweets http://twitter.com/PhilTownsend __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] Grounds... I know, I know... its a Dead issue BUT... (no Pun)
I really hate to bring it up again... But hear me out: My A/C service entrance does not have a ground rod. My house was built about 25 years ago.' I pulled the service front panel and found the following: All the grounds and neutrals are bonded to the metal chassis as they are supposed to be. But there is no wire for a connection to a ground ROD! It looks like they used a solid metal pipe that houses the big A/C wire inside of this pipe. This pipe IS connected to the service entrance by some metal gland nuts. The 2 1/2 pipe goes outside of the house and is buried underground. It goes off to a transformer that is about 100 yards away. So my question: IS this pipe MY Ground rod? Don't follow My Tweets http://twitter.com/PhilTownsend __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Grounds... I know, I know... its a Dead issue BUT... (no Pun)
Looks like a code violation. Turn yourself in! Steve N4LQ - Original Message - From: Phil Townsend phi...@mac.com To: Elecraft Reflector elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 11:44 AM Subject: [Elecraft] Grounds... I know,I know... its a Dead issue BUT... (no Pun) I really hate to bring it up again... But hear me out: My A/C service entrance does not have a ground rod. My house was built about 25 years ago.' I pulled the service front panel and found the following: All the grounds and neutrals are bonded to the metal chassis as they are supposed to be. But there is no wire for a connection to a ground ROD! It looks like they used a solid metal pipe that houses the big A/C wire inside of this pipe. This pipe IS connected to the service entrance by some metal gland nuts. The 2 1/2 pipe goes outside of the house and is buried underground. It goes off to a transformer that is about 100 yards away. So my question: IS this pipe MY Ground rod? Don't follow My Tweets http://twitter.com/PhilTownsend __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Grounds... I know, I know... its a Dead issue BUT... (no Pun)
According to the NEC a buried pipe with corrosion protection over 8ft long is an acceptable grounding electrode, with a listed hierarchy of preference for different types of pipes. Metallic water pipes are 1st on the list. Normally other pipes are used only when the water pipe is non-metallic. _ Clyde Washburn, K2UE 82 Lasalle Pkwy Victor, NY 14564-9610 585-317-7006 k...@rochester.rr.com -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Phil Townsend Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 11:44 AM To: Elecraft Reflector Subject: [Elecraft] Grounds... I know, I know... its a Dead issue BUT... (no Pun) I really hate to bring it up again... But hear me out: My A/C service entrance does not have a ground rod. My house was built about 25 years ago.' I pulled the service front panel and found the following: All the grounds and neutrals are bonded to the metal chassis as they are supposed to be. But there is no wire for a connection to a ground ROD! It looks like they used a solid metal pipe that houses the big A/C wire inside of this pipe. This pipe IS connected to the service entrance by some metal gland nuts. The 2 1/2 pipe goes outside of the house and is buried underground. It goes off to a transformer that is about 100 yards away. So my question: IS this pipe MY Ground rod? Don't follow My Tweets http://twitter.com/PhilTownsend __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Grounds... I know, I know... its a Dead issue BUT... (no Pun)
On 4/6/2011 8:44 AM, Phil Townsend wrote: It looks like they used a solid metal pipe that houses the big A/C wire inside of this pipe. This pipe IS connected to the service entrance by some metal gland nuts. The 2 1/2 pipe goes outside of the house and is buried underground. It goes off to a transformer that is about 100 yards away. So my question: IS this pipe MY Ground rod? Usually, metallic conduit (the pipe you describe) rated for direct burial is protected by an outer layer to resist corrosion. That layer is likely to act as an insulator, so it's unlikely that your conduit is providing an acceptable ground. If it were my home I would add one or more ground rods by the power panel, and more near the shack. And, of course, all must be bonded together. Indeed, that's what I had to do with the home I bought in CA. There were NO rods, and the only attempt at an earth connection was a wire running horizontally about three feet above ground to a metallic outlet for a watering hose, but all pipe to the hose was PVC. So the house was ungrounded! 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Grounds... I know, I know... its a Dead issue BUT... (no Pun)
On Wed, 6 Apr 2011 12:07:03 -0400 Clyde Washburn k...@rochester.rr.com wrote: According to the NEC a buried pipe with corrosion protection over 8ft long is an acceptable grounding electrode, with a listed hierarchy of preference for different types of pipes. Metallic water pipes are 1st on the list. Normally other pipes are used only when the water pipe is non-metallic. That's what I've got here. The panel is grounded to the cold water supply which runs 15' to the basement wall and then 6' deep all the way out to the street (70'). The water meter is metal (bronze) and there is no plastic anywhere in the system. My shack ground is an 5/8 x 8' copper clad rod connected to 2 copper ribbon which runs from the other end of the house, enters the basement where the electrical service does (boy I love buried service) and is clamped under the same wire clamp used for the electrical panel. The only ground rod in the system is the one next to my shack window. 70' of metal water pipe is a pretty good ground. -- R. Kevin Stover AC0H __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Grounds... I know, I know... its a Dead issue BUT... (no Pun)
On 4/6/2011 11:44 AM, Phil Townsend wrote: I really hate to bring it up again... But hear me out: My A/C service entrance does not have a ground rod. My house was built about 25 years ago.' I pulled the service front panel and found the following: All the grounds and neutrals are bonded to the metal chassis as they are supposed to be. But there is no wire for a connection to a ground ROD! It looks like they used a solid metal pipe that houses the big A/C wire inside of this pipe. This pipe IS connected to the service entrance by some metal gland nuts. The 2 1/2 pipe goes outside of the house and is buried underground. It goes off to a transformer that is about 100 yards away. So my question: IS this pipe MY Ground rod? Phil There is only one way to be suremeasure the resistance of the pipe to ground. There are several ways to do this. Do a Google search. Perhaps your electric company will come out and do it for you. 73, Roger __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Grounds... I know, I know... its a Dead issue BUT... (no Pun)
Phil, My house is about the same vintage. I had the same situation, no ground rod at the service entrance. I put in a ground rod myself. It may or may not have had an adequate ground before but I figured putting in a redundant ground with the ground rod would be a good idea, plus it brings it up to current code requirements. Bob K6UJ On Apr 6, 2011, at 8:44 AM, Phil Townsend wrote: I really hate to bring it up again... But hear me out: My A/C service entrance does not have a ground rod. My house was built about 25 years ago.' I pulled the service front panel and found the following: All the grounds and neutrals are bonded to the metal chassis as they are supposed to be. But there is no wire for a connection to a ground ROD! It looks like they used a solid metal pipe that houses the big A/C wire inside of this pipe. This pipe IS connected to the service entrance by some metal gland nuts. The 2 1/2 pipe goes outside of the house and is buried underground. It goes off to a transformer that is about 100 yards away. So my question: IS this pipe MY Ground rod? Don't follow My Tweets http://twitter.com/PhilTownsend __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
