Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[Eric Swartz WA6HHQ - Elecraft]

Folks - yes, this thread was closed earlier today. Please take this to private 
email. We are way past the OT POSTING LIMIT. 

73,
Eric
Moderator - Really!
elecraft.com
---
Sent from my iPhone 6S

> On Mar 2, 2016, at 9:38 PM, dave  wrote:
> 
> Eric has closed this thread but I think this needs to be responded to:
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[dave]

Eric has closed this thread but I think this needs to be responded to:

> So what does that
> mean?  It seems to suggest that the dirtier your signal is the 
better you will do!!!


I don't think you understand what the WRTC is. Do some research and 
you will find that the kind of dirty TX you are talking about would 
not be tolerated in this event.


In a general contest this may be a valid point. Yaesu was known for 
years for having loud key clicks on the FT-1000. And they did win a 
lot of contests. But that is not applicable to the WRTC, which is a 
tightly regulated and monitored event.


73 de dave
ab9ca/4



On 3/2/16 10:43 PM, w7aqk wrote:

I'm trying to "get my arms around" the following statement by Joe, W4TV:

"The observation I would make on this is that the poor performing Icoms
were good enough to capture all 3 of the top positions in the recent
WRTC. IIRC there was one Elecraft and 5 Icoms used by the top 3 teams."

Joe seems to concede that the Icoms are "poor performing", but that
somehow they took the top 3 positions in the WRTC.  So what does that
mean?  It seems to suggest that the dirtier your signal is the better
you will do!!! I would agree that a dirty signal does tend to get your
attention!!!  At the same time, the fact that there was only one
Elecraft radio in use certainly assured the fact that Icoms would
finish high.   I can also see why the Elecraft may not have finished
in the top 3, since it really is not designed, with all the glitz and
500 knobs, to be a contest radio.  Rather, it is designed to be a
modest sized, but highly competent radio!  That may not dovetail with
what contesters are looking for.  However, when it comes to "nailing
down" a difficult contact, one at a time, I'll put the K3 up against
just about any radio.

The obsession with contests is a concern to me.  During those events I
constantly hear signals that are obviously the result of over driving,
etc. Some folks seem to be willing to sacrifice anything in order to
just be "heard" better than the next guy.  They will absolutely
squeeze the very last watt possible out of their equipment even though
they know (and have been warned) that running equipment that close to
maximum increases the probability that signal quality will
deteriorate, and very probably outside required specifications.  It
just seems to me that this is a subversive way of cheating!

Admittedly, not all of this is the fault of the operator.  Equipment
manufacturers have increasingly ignored the importance of signal
purity. Still, if you take a piece of equipment that is known to be
deficient, and then run it at levels that accentuate the problem, I
think you lose your innocence.

Even the K3 had a potential problem.  At one time you could run a
stock K3 at more than 100 watts, thus increasing significantly the
odds of transmitting a dirty signal.  Elecraft dialed that capability
back through firmware.  I may be kidding myself, but my rule of thumb
is to never run anything at more than 90% of it's rated capability.
Maybe that's not dialing back enough, but it is bound to be better
than what I could be doing.

Dave W7AQK


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Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[Josh Fiden]

Wow. Elecraft seems to be fooling a lot of contesters into using their 
modest, yet competent radios!  :)


73,
Josh W6XU

On 3/2/2016 8:43 PM, w7aqk wrote:
since it really is not designed, with all the glitz and 500 knobs, to 
be a contest radio.  Rather, it is designed to be a modest sized, but 
highly competent radio!


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Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[w7aqk]

I'm trying to "get my arms around" the following statement by Joe, W4TV:

"The observation I would make on this is that the poor performing Icoms
were good enough to capture all 3 of the top positions in the recent
WRTC. IIRC there was one Elecraft and 5 Icoms used by the top 3 teams."

Joe seems to concede that the Icoms are "poor performing", but that somehow 
they took the top 3 positions in the WRTC.  So what does that mean?  It 
seems to suggest that the dirtier your signal is the better you will do!!! 
I would agree that a dirty signal does tend to get your attention!!!  At the 
same time, the fact that there was only one Elecraft radio in use certainly 
assured the fact that Icoms would finish high.   I can also see why the 
Elecraft may not have finished in the top 3, since it really is not 
designed, with all the glitz and 500 knobs, to be a contest radio.  Rather, 
it is designed to be a modest sized, but highly competent radio!  That may 
not dovetail with what contesters are looking for.  However, when it comes 
to "nailing down" a difficult contact, one at a time, I'll put the K3 up 
against just about any radio.


The obsession with contests is a concern to me.  During those events I 
constantly hear signals that are obviously the result of over driving, etc. 
Some folks seem to be willing to sacrifice anything in order to just be 
"heard" better than the next guy.  They will absolutely squeeze the very 
last watt possible out of their equipment even though they know (and have 
been warned) that running equipment that close to maximum increases the 
probability that signal quality will deteriorate, and very probably outside 
required specifications.  It just seems to me that this is a subversive way 
of cheating!


Admittedly, not all of this is the fault of the operator.  Equipment 
manufacturers have increasingly ignored the importance of signal purity. 
Still, if you take a piece of equipment that is known to be deficient, and 
then run it at levels that accentuate the problem, I think you lose your 
innocence.


Even the K3 had a potential problem.  At one time you could run a stock K3 
at more than 100 watts, thus increasing significantly the odds of 
transmitting a dirty signal.  Elecraft dialed that capability back through 
firmware.  I may be kidding myself, but my rule of thumb is to never run 
anything at more than 90% of it's rated capability.  Maybe that's not 
dialing back enough, but it is bound to be better than what I could be 
doing.


Dave W7AQK


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Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[Barry N1EU]

Yes, and a Flex 6700's ADC evidently didn't crumble in the big signal
jungle on topband and garnered #1 USA (assisted/unlimited) in the recent CQ
WW 160M CW contest.

73, Barry N1EU

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 5:56 PM, dave  wrote:

>
> The observation I would make on this is that the poor performing Icoms
> were good enough to capture all 3 of the top positions in the recent WRTC.
> IIRC there was one Elecraft and 5 Icoms used by the top 3 teams.
>
> I don't want to read too much into that, op skills play heavily in the
> results. And luck plays a role as well. But nonetheless, even though the
> 'numbers' of the Icoms are not all that good, they appear to be 'good
> enough'.
>
> They do have too much TX noise. But then nearly all rigs have too much TX
> noise.
>
> My view is that the top-of-the-line rigs are serious overkill for nearly
> all hams.
>
> Even the lowly FT-857, which is no ones idea of a 'contest rig', did
> surprisingly well in the hands of two very good ops. This was back in the
> WRTC in 2010. Their pair of K3's were wiped out by lightning. They lost an
> hour of op time while swapping rigs but still finished about 35th out of
> 50. At the end of that lost hour they were dead last, but then climbed back
> up the list. So I think the evidence indicates that even under the
> demanding condx of a contest a lot of rigs are good enough to be
> competitive. Guys should spend less on rigs and more on antennas. Or maybe
> spend that extra $$$ on beer and women . . .
>
> 73 de dave
>
>
>
> On 3/2/16 11:09 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>
>>
>> On 3/2/2016 11:49 AM, lstavenhagen wrote:
>>
>>> I don't doubt at all that Icom's high end rigs are good rigs with
>>> good performance, but the K3 and K3S at the core of the Elecraft
>>> investment still far outperform them for less money. For me anyway,
>>> Icoms offer nothing comparable to the K line at the upper end of the
>>> $ range, not even close.
>>>
>>
>> If you look at test data from both Sherwood and ARRL, I don't believe
>> you can consider any of the Icom rigs (ProIII, 7600, 7700, 7800) to
>> be "high performance" (I'm holding judgement until I see test data
>> on the 7851).  In all cases, phase noise and 2 KHz IMDDR3 are barely
>> adequate with 2 KHz IMDDR3 between 70 and 80 dB and phase noise in
>> the 125 - 130 dBc/Hz range 10 KHz from carrier.
>>
>> Those numbers put Icom's top of the line rigs behind well known "High
>> performance" rigs like the Flex-1500 and Yaesu FTdx3000!
>>
>> 73,
>>
>>... Joe, W4TV
>>
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Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[Jim Brown]

On Wed,3/2/2016 9:56 AM, dave wrote:
The observation I would make on this is that the poor performing Icoms 
were good enough to capture all 3 of the top positions in the recent 
WRTC. IIRC there was one Elecraft and 5 Icoms used by the top 3 teams. 


ICOM provided rigs at no cost to those who couldn't or didn't want to 
bring their own rig to WRTC. Elecraft rigs were owned by the 
participants, and were about 2/3 of the rigs in use. Also, many 
participants don't care (or don't know) if their rig is dirty on CW, and 
those ICOM rigs are (although not as nasty as the Yaesu rigs).


73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

Folks - Let's end this topic now to relieve others from email overload.

73,

Eric
Moodulator
/elecraft.com/

On 3/2/2016 9:34 AM, lstavenhagen wrote:

oh, I totally agree - even my K2 nips at the heels of a 7700 and probably
even a 7800, especially in a pileup. I just didn't want to bury Doug's
point, which I think is a good one. A rig purchase is often a compromise,
where it's often ok to sacrifice one feature set for another to suit one's
budget or intended use of the rig. Something like the 7300 can fill a niche,
as Doug describes so I think he's totally right on that point.

OTOH, it's hard not to be biased once you get your first Elecraft rig, or
two... your opinions very quickly converge away from El's competitors once
you start putting them on the air, etc. and those rigs become three... and
then 4. :).

73,
LS
W5QD



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Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[dave]

The observation I would make on this is that the poor performing Icoms 
were good enough to capture all 3 of the top positions in the recent 
WRTC. IIRC there was one Elecraft and 5 Icoms used by the top 3 teams.


I don't want to read too much into that, op skills play heavily in the 
results. And luck plays a role as well. But nonetheless, even though 
the 'numbers' of the Icoms are not all that good, they appear to be 
'good enough'.


They do have too much TX noise. But then nearly all rigs have too much 
TX noise.


My view is that the top-of-the-line rigs are serious overkill for 
nearly all hams.


Even the lowly FT-857, which is no ones idea of a 'contest rig', did 
surprisingly well in the hands of two very good ops. This was back in 
the WRTC in 2010. Their pair of K3's were wiped out by lightning. They 
lost an hour of op time while swapping rigs but still finished about 
35th out of 50. At the end of that lost hour they were dead last, but 
then climbed back up the list. So I think the evidence indicates that 
even under the demanding condx of a contest a lot of rigs are good 
enough to be competitive. Guys should spend less on rigs and more on 
antennas. Or maybe spend that extra $$$ on beer and women . . .


73 de dave



On 3/2/16 11:09 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


On 3/2/2016 11:49 AM, lstavenhagen wrote:

I don't doubt at all that Icom's high end rigs are good rigs with
good performance, but the K3 and K3S at the core of the Elecraft
investment still far outperform them for less money. For me anyway,
Icoms offer nothing comparable to the K line at the upper end of the
$ range, not even close.


If you look at test data from both Sherwood and ARRL, I don't believe
you can consider any of the Icom rigs (ProIII, 7600, 7700, 7800) to
be "high performance" (I'm holding judgement until I see test data
on the 7851).  In all cases, phase noise and 2 KHz IMDDR3 are barely
adequate with 2 KHz IMDDR3 between 70 and 80 dB and phase noise in
the 125 - 130 dBc/Hz range 10 KHz from carrier.

Those numbers put Icom's top of the line rigs behind well known "High
performance" rigs like the Flex-1500 and Yaesu FTdx3000!

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV

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Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[lstavenhagen]

oh, I totally agree - even my K2 nips at the heels of a 7700 and probably
even a 7800, especially in a pileup. I just didn't want to bury Doug's
point, which I think is a good one. A rig purchase is often a compromise,
where it's often ok to sacrifice one feature set for another to suit one's
budget or intended use of the rig. Something like the 7300 can fill a niche,
as Doug describes so I think he's totally right on that point.

OTOH, it's hard not to be biased once you get your first Elecraft rig, or
two... your opinions very quickly converge away from El's competitors once
you start putting them on the air, etc. and those rigs become three... and
then 4. :). 

73,
LS
W5QD



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Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[Jim Brown]

On Wed,3/2/2016 8:24 AM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote:
If you have spent serious time with an IC-7600, IC-7700, or IC-7800, 
you would absolutely NOT say their performance is mediocre.


They are worse than mediocre with respect to cleanliness of transmitted 
CW. See k9yc.com/TXNoise.pdf


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

On 3/2/2016 11:49 AM, lstavenhagen wrote:

I don't doubt at all that Icom's high end rigs are good rigs with
good performance, but the K3 and K3S at the core of the Elecraft
investment still far outperform them for less money. For me anyway,
Icoms offer nothing comparable to the K line at the upper end of the
$ range, not even close.


If you look at test data from both Sherwood and ARRL, I don't believe
you can consider any of the Icom rigs (ProIII, 7600, 7700, 7800) to
be "high performance" (I'm holding judgement until I see test data
on the 7851).  In all cases, phase noise and 2 KHz IMDDR3 are barely
adequate with 2 KHz IMDDR3 between 70 and 80 dB and phase noise in
the 125 - 130 dBc/Hz range 10 KHz from carrier.

Those numbers put Icom's top of the line rigs behind well known "High
performance" rigs like the Flex-1500 and Yaesu FTdx3000!

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV

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Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[lstavenhagen]

Excellent points, Doug. Still, the bang/buck ratio belongs to Elecraft,
especially at the high end, in my view. For example, if you took that $4,269
on the K line, added approx $2000 more to it and put it into an IC 7700,
say, you come out far behind performance-wise and 2 grand poorer too. So I
don't see how one really comes out ahead in that case.

I don't doubt at all that Icom's high end rigs are good rigs with good
performance, but the K3 and K3S at the core of the Elecraft investment still
far outperform them for less money. For me anyway, Icoms offer nothing
comparable to the K line at the upper end of the $ range, not even close.

As for the 7300, though, I think you make an excellent point. It does offer
a definite draw for the market you describe...

73,
LS
W5QD



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Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[Doug Person via Elecraft]

Hard to compare other modern Icom transceivers to the 706 which had 
about the worse rx of any of their rigs in the past 30 years.  It was, 
after all, a mobile rig designed several decades ago.  The IC-7300 does 
represent an interesting step forward in technology.


Large, touch-enabled, menu driven color screens are the future.  It 
eliminates a lot of physical controls that add considerably to the final 
cost.  The actual specifications aren't always the final measure of 
cost/benefit.  Usability and accessibility are very important factors as 
well.


If I'm going to engage in serious contesting, the K3 is the obvious 
choice.  For everyday casual operating, I can have many enjoyable 
contacts with one of my ancient Swan Cygnet 270B's.  It's not always A 
VS: B.  Considering the features of the IC-7300 within it's price range 
- it's got a lot to offer.


A K3s/100 and a P3 (to match the features of the IC-7300) is vastly more 
expensive.  So there is no fair comparison between the two.


A K3s with the same set of features as the IC-7300 will cost $4,269.75, 
whereas the IC-7300 announced price (DXEngineering) is $1,499.00.  So 
that high-performance receiver essentially costs $2,770.75.


If you have spent serious time with an IC-7600, IC-7700, or IC-7800, you 
would absolutely NOT say their performance is mediocre.


Doug -- K0DXV

On 3/1/16 2:29 PM, lstavenhagen wrote:

I guess you get what you pay for. To my knowledge, only Elecraft is capable
of producing receivers that top the charts over at Sherwood engineering but
still cost only what their competitors' "entry level" rigs do.

I don't think the Icom leopard is necessarily going to change its spots with
the 7300, it never has in the past.  Either the price is going to be really
high or the performance mediocre (or maybe both). I personally have always
been dismayed at how poor Icom's RX's have been even at the higher price
ranges; even my K2 runs circles around my 706MKIIG in terms of RX
performance.

I think the highest bang/buck ratio is still held by Elecraft and I don't
see that changing for quite a while...

73,
LS
W5QD



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Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[Ignacy]

IC-7300 may be a radio between IC-7100 or IC-7410. Its price probably will
fall to $1000 like of 7100. Ultimately direct SDR is less expensive
technology.

Regarding strong-signal handling, sometimes I set SDR-IQ (14 bit) as skimmer
in 160m contests. Despite zillions of strong signals, SDR-IQ finds DX buried
in noise that P3 barely can see. 

 $150 SDR-Play (0.1-2000MHz, 12 bit) shows capabilities and complexities of
SDR. It consist of wide bandpass filters followed by a conversion unit
followed by SDR machinery. One can choose zero or nonzero IFs.  On HF large
differences in strong-signal handling between the two. 2m reception better
than IC-7000. 

A competition keeps progress alive.

Ignacy, NO9E




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Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

On 3/1/2016 4:52 PM, Barry N1EU wrote:

N5AC made some interesting comments on the topic:
https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/adc-overload-myths-debunked


N5AC is "talking his book" and totally out of touch with reality.
While he claims the issue of ADC overload is blown out of proportion
and cites mathematical models to support his claim, it doesn't always
work that way in the real world.  Put another way, the real world is
not always "neat" with a bunch of similar level signals across a wide
spectrum.  Try copying a -130 dBm signal among multiple -30 to -50 dBm
(S9+20 to S9+40 dB) amateur signals on 160 with a dozen AM signals also
present at -30 dBm to 0 dBm at the receiver input.  See the spectrum
analyzer plot from K8AQC showing fifteen AM signals stronger than -40
dBm and *five* stronger than -10 dBm: 
. 
 I doubt N5AC can show

that a Flex 6300, 6500, or even a 6700 (without the optional second
SCU) can *simultaneously* provide -130 dBm sensitivity and +100 dB
2 KHz IMDDR3 on 160 meters while running a second slice receiver
(panadapter) on 80 or 40 meters under those conditions in tests
certified by independent experts - yet those are the very conditions
he claims mathematically can't happen.

NC0B (in personal e-mail) has reported significant symptoms of ADC
overload with a non-Flex direct sampling SDR with a 250 MHz ADC on 160
meters at his *rural* Colorado location.  ARRL Labs shows the same
trade off between sensitivity and IMDDR3 with the both the Flex 6300
and Flex 6700 in the April 2015 QST review 
. 
 The

review shows a substantial reduction in sensitivity with the preamp
turned off and a substantial fall-off in dynamic range with the preamp
turned on.  ARRL does not even publish dynamic range at 2 KHz with the
highest gain preamp even though their measurements are made with only
two signals - not a dozen or more close in signals at the same high
level.

Sherwood shows the tradeoff between sensitivity and dynamic range in
his "Receiver Test Data" table .
It is most clear in the 100 KHz Blocking values where the Flex 6700
shows "A/D Limit varies with Preamp Gain" ... in other words, when the
preamp is on (as required for the -135 dBm sensitivity), the Blocking
values fall apart (vs. > 150 dB 100 KHz blocking range for the K3S).

The issue of ADC overload can't be simply dismissed by hand waving as
N5AC and others would like.  The current technology is not robust
enough to simultaneously provide -145 dB MDS, 100 dB+ 2 KHz IMDDR3
and 130 dB+ Blocking Dynamic range as the case for the K3S, K3 and
KX3.

ADC technology - instantaneous peak voltage handling - needs to improve
another 10 to 20 dB before direct sampling can be said to be completely
reliable in all conditions.  It may "work fine" in many locations where
antenna selectivity, external bandpass filters and even propagation
protect the ADC from overload.  However, direct sampling does not work
well in the presence of multiple, very strong, close in signals as
shown by both ARRL and NC0B testing - no matter how much the proponents
of direct sampling would like to make you believe.

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV


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Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[Barry LaZar]

Wayne,
If you remember Dayton, you saw some of what we do with the K line. 
If you really want to know how strong the KX3 and K3 address ham radio 
requirements, you really need  to see our little group contest in the 
low and high power categories and then switch to operate Field Day 3A 
QRP.


The majority of our group belong to the Potomac Valley Radio Club. 
What that means is there are at least a few of us who are serious; I 
can't be called serious as I never learned to touch type. My point is 
there is no other radio that I am aware of that can compete with the K 
line when you look at what beginning through advanced hams need/want.


Let me change theme. I found it interesting that Icom said that they 
were using direct sampling for the 7300. That statement contradicts what 
they appear to really be doing. It appears to me that they are 
digitizing a 36 KHz IF vice digitizing the spectrum as the Flex does. 
Flex runs a 200 MHz 16 bit A/D that they use to produce the data on 
which they operate. What I don't know from Icom is are they using a 16 
or 24 bit A/D as you guys do; I prefer the 24 bit architecture. And, I 
particularly prefer the KX3 architecture as you allowed me access the 
I data so I could play off the radio, something my friends with K3s 
would have liked to have.


Vy 73,
Barry
K3NDM

-- Original Message --
From: "Wayne Burdick" <n...@elecraft.com>
To: "Barry LaZar" <k3...@comcast.net>
Cc: "Bill" <w2...@nycap.rr.com>; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: 3/1/2016 3:08:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available


Hi Barry,


 Interesting. I wonder how it will compare to my KX3.

 The only direct sampling complete rig that I was aware of was the 
Flex 6000 series. I also wonder if it will be as flexible in operation 
as a KX3. Ah technology, and so little time. ;-)


Since the 7300 uses direct sampling, it will have the same blocking 
dynamic range (BDR) problem as other radios in this class, especially 
multi-signal situations such as contesting. I also doubt it will beat 
the KX3 in close-spaced dynamic range, unless they used a very exotic, 
very expensive A-to-D converter. (Note that the only way the Flex 6700 
series can achieve good close-in dynamic range is by turning on the 
preamp. This overcomes the very poor preamp-off MDS, but at an even 
greater cost in BDR.)


Beyond that, the KX3:

 - is about 1/5th the size
 - is about 1/5th the weight
 - consumes probably 1/10th as much RX-mode current
 - has an internal battery
 - has an attached keyer paddle
 - has built-in stereo audio and CW/RTTY/PSK31 text decode with a PC
 - works with integrated peripherals (PX3 and KXPA100) that can be left 
at

   your fixed station when traveling

So if you're operating portable, it's an apples/oranges comparison.

73,
Wayne
N6KR





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[Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[Johnny Siu]

Hello JOe,
Checking from websites in JA, street price in Akihabara, Tokyo is far cheaper 
for IC7300.
73
Johnny VR2XMC

  寄件人︰ "Joe Subich, W4TV" <li...@subich.com>
 收件人︰ elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
 傳送日期︰ 2016年03月2日 (週三) 5:18 AM
 主題︰ Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available
   

If one is not a backpacker or wants 100W output - perhaps for mobile
work - the "traditional knob" interface, built in tuner, support for
the AH-3/AH-4 tuners at the antenna, 100W, etc. make the IC-7300 quite
interesting.  IIRC, the 7300 will do PSK31/RTTY with an internal
decoder and attached keyboard.  Icom's claimed RMDDR and phase noise
specifications will, if accurate, put the 7300 in the top echelon of
Sherwood's test results.  The 7300 has what appears to be relatively
"tight" preselectors which should minimize the "composite signal level"
ADC overload (much more than the Flex-6300 with no preselectors) and
those with limited antennas (e.g. mobile, compromise wires, etc.) are
even less likely to see the strong signal composite overload than
someone with big antennas high in the air.

My disappointment is that after claiming the 7300 would be an "entry
level" rig, the price is well above that of Icom's other entry level
rigs (the IC-718 or IC-7100).  At the announced price, the 7300 should
have included a RX ANT Out/RX ANT In "loop," support for a second
antenna, and a video output to feed a larger display.

At its size and power level the 7300 is not the "backpacker's special"
nor was it intended to be.  To make that comparison is patently unfair.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 3/1/2016 3:58 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
> YES!  In addition to being a great mobile and fixed station rig, it's a
> backpacker's dream! Last summer, I loaned my KX3/KXPA100 with a 20Ah
> LiFePO4 battery to AF6RT and W6JTI, who dragged it up a 2 mile trail
> with a 1,000 ft gain in elevation to light up a rare 6M grid. They were
> also dragging an antenna, coax, a computer, water, and lunch. At the end
> of the day, they still had power left in that battery.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
> On Tue,3/1/2016 12:08 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>> Beyond that, the KX3:
>>
>>  - is about 1/5th the size
>>  - is about 1/5th the weight
>>  - consumes probably 1/10th as much RX-mode current
>>  - has an internal battery
>>  - has an attached keyer paddle
>>  - has built-in stereo audio and CW/RTTY/PSK31 text decode with a PC
>>  - works with integrated peripherals (PX3 and KXPA100) that can be
>> left at
>>    your fixed station when traveling
>>
>> So if you're operating portable, it's an apples/oranges comparison.
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[Szabó István]

This is argument to upgrade to *KSYN3AUPG. *And also describes why the K 
line is unbeatable.


73, István, ha4zd

On 3/1/2016 10:52 PM, Barry N1EU wrote:

My experience with direct sampling radios (ANAN-100D & Flex 6500 in the
shack alongside my K3s/P3) is that their front ends are plenty robust
enough for contesting and low band dx'ing.  N5AC made some interesting
comments on the topic:
https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/adc-overload-myths-debunked

73, Barry N1EU



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Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[Phil Hystad]

I will keep my KX3 then.  I like the idea it is 1/5th the size!  All the other 
good features are bonus cream on top.

But, since Icom America Headquarters is just a few blocks from my house 
(probably 15 minutes walking time) I will wait for a bit and then wander down 
to see if they have the 7300 alive and hooked up in their ham-shack.  They have 
a nice Stepper up about 75 feet for an antenna so it will be a nice test.  
Usually though, it takes a while for them to get new equipment in their shack.  
It took six months for the first 7800 to show up there after the first 
availability from retailers.

73, phil, K7PEH



> On Mar 1, 2016, at 12:08 PM, Wayne Burdick  wrote:
> Since the 7300 uses direct sampling, it will have the same blocking dynamic 
> range (BDR) problem as other radios in this class, especially multi-signal 
> situations such as contesting. I also doubt it will beat the KX3 in 
> close-spaced dynamic range, unless they used a very exotic, very expensive 
> A-to-D converter. (Note that the only way the Flex 6700 series can achieve 
> good close-in dynamic range is by turning on the preamp. This overcomes the 
> very poor preamp-off MDS, but at an even greater cost in BDR.)
> 
> Beyond that, the KX3:
> 
> - is about 1/5th the size
> - is about 1/5th the weight
> - consumes probably 1/10th as much RX-mode current
> - has an internal battery 
> - has an attached keyer paddle
> - has built-in stereo audio and CW/RTTY/PSK31 text decode with a PC
> - works with integrated peripherals (PX3 and KXPA100) that can be left at 
>   your fixed station when traveling 
> 
> So if you're operating portable, it's an apples/oranges comparison.
> 
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[GRANT YOUNGMAN]

The real question is … does anyone actually care?  Maybe on an Icom list (?)


Grant NQ5T
K3 #2091, KX3 #8342





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Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[lstavenhagen]

Well, that would be my point, of course :). With Elecraft rigs, "you get what
you pay for" means a completely different thing than it does with Elecraft's
competitors. IMHO, of course.

And honestly, now that I've put the new synth in my K3 and just bought a
K3S, I don't think there's a better performing pair of rigs I could buy at
any cost, really. And they even work well /P with a battery and my
buddipole, which is all the operating I'm able to do these days. So I kind
of don't really even have a choice in the matter, even if they weren't
already the best RX's you could buy

73,
LS
W5QD.



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Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[Rick WA6NHC]

I submit that an 'entry level' rig is often a handed down or used rig.  
The 7300 is an 'economy' model direct conversion (which is not 
unattractive to some)... however...


The IC-7300 should have had VGA/HDMI output for a larger display option 
(ideally a Bluetooth link to extend the entire touch screen and a few 
knobs to an interactive tablet app, then store the rig elsewhere like 
under the back seat, trunk etc.).  When a rig has a video display (not 
just LED readouts) it is simply ignorant to ignore video output as a 
standard feature (or as an available option), even on an entry level 
rig.  Not everyone wants a tiny touch display that may quickly get 
covered in finger goo (mobile/portable environment is not nearly as 
clean as the average shack) and having a larger display makes it easier 
to actually see the scope etc. in a more comfortable operating position, 
no hunching down to see it on the table.


However, I will be watching it as a potential RV rig (where I don't 
expect stellar performance); my other choices (in order) are a basic 
K3/100 with tuner (less 'stuff' when compared to the home rig, secured 
during travel), the KW TS-480HX (already have one in the truck) and the 
KX3 with an amp and the '7300 (huge cost differences).  Even the 7300 
minimal scope is better than no P(X)3 so it's a matter of how much to 
spend to make a basic RV station. All can be managed by an external 
computer, mentioned only to dismiss it entirely in discussion.  In the 
RV world, size (storage space or station space) and weight (load limits, 
fuel use) are HUGE factors.  A case of oranges and grapefruit perhaps (a 
potential lemon tossed in)?


Further, the KW line and Elecraft menu/command structure is so simple, 
logical and similar, I don't have to 'switch gears' to use either; the 
Icom, is um, different.  Always has been, I've never 'liked' it, I just 
learned to adapt when I used one (Field day typically).


Rick wa6nhc

On 3/1/2016 1:18 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


If one is not a backpacker or wants 100W output - perhaps for mobile
work - the "traditional knob" interface, built in tuner, support for
the AH-3/AH-4 tuners at the antenna, 100W, etc. make the IC-7300 quite
interesting.  IIRC, the 7300 will do PSK31/RTTY with an internal
decoder and attached keyboard.  Icom's claimed RMDDR and phase noise
specifications will, if accurate, put the 7300 in the top echelon of
Sherwood's test results.  The 7300 has what appears to be relatively
"tight" preselectors which should minimize the "composite signal level"
ADC overload (much more than the Flex-6300 with no preselectors) and
those with limited antennas (e.g. mobile, compromise wires, etc.) are
even less likely to see the strong signal composite overload than
someone with big antennas high in the air.

My disappointment is that after claiming the 7300 would be an "entry
level" rig, the price is well above that of Icom's other entry level
rigs (the IC-718 or IC-7100).  At the announced price, the 7300 should
have included a RX ANT Out/RX ANT In "loop," support for a second
antenna, and a video output to feed a larger display.

At its size and power level the 7300 is not the "backpacker's special"
nor was it intended to be.  To make that comparison is patently unfair.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 3/1/2016 3:58 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

YES!  In addition to being a great mobile and fixed station rig, it's a
backpacker's dream! Last summer, I loaned my KX3/KXPA100 with a 20Ah
LiFePO4 battery to AF6RT and W6JTI, who dragged it up a 2 mile trail
with a 1,000 ft gain in elevation to light up a rare 6M grid. They were
also dragging an antenna, coax, a computer, water, and lunch. At the end
of the day, they still had power left in that battery.

73, Jim K9YC

On Tue,3/1/2016 12:08 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

Beyond that, the KX3:

  - is about 1/5th the size
  - is about 1/5th the weight
  - consumes probably 1/10th as much RX-mode current
  - has an internal battery
  - has an attached keyer paddle
  - has built-in stereo audio and CW/RTTY/PSK31 text decode with a PC
  - works with integrated peripherals (PX3 and KXPA100) that can be
left at
your fixed station when traveling

So if you're operating portable, it's an apples/oranges comparison.


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Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[Barry N1EU]

My experience with direct sampling radios (ANAN-100D & Flex 6500 in the
shack alongside my K3s/P3) is that their front ends are plenty robust
enough for contesting and low band dx'ing.  N5AC made some interesting
comments on the topic:
https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/adc-overload-myths-debunked

73, Barry N1EU


Message: 23
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 12:08:00 -0800
From: Wayne Burdick <n...@elecraft.com>
To: Barry LaZar <k3...@comcast.net>
Cc: Bill <w2...@nycap.rr.com>, elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available
Message-ID: <f0f1f987-44a7-4a0c-9619-159bf8670...@elecraft.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


Since the 7300 uses direct sampling, it will have the same blocking dynamic
range (BDR) problem as other radios in this class, especially multi-signal
situations such as contesting. I also doubt it will beat the KX3 in
close-spaced dynamic range, unless they used a very exotic, very expensive
A-to-D converter. (Note that the only way the Flex 6700 series can achieve
good close-in dynamic range is by turning on the preamp. This overcomes the
very poor preamp-off MDS, but at an even greater cost in BDR.)
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Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[Jim Brown]

On Tue,3/1/2016 1:29 PM, lstavenhagen wrote:

even my K2 runs circles around my 706MKIIG in terms of RX
performance.


That's a very unfair comparison -- the 706, like the Yaesu FT100D, 
FT847, and FT897, in all their incarnations combine a lousy receiver 
with el cheapo noise generators that have no business being used on the 
air.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[lstavenhagen]

I guess you get what you pay for. To my knowledge, only Elecraft is capable
of producing receivers that top the charts over at Sherwood engineering but
still cost only what their competitors' "entry level" rigs do. 

I don't think the Icom leopard is necessarily going to change its spots with
the 7300, it never has in the past.  Either the price is going to be really
high or the performance mediocre (or maybe both). I personally have always
been dismayed at how poor Icom's RX's have been even at the higher price
ranges; even my K2 runs circles around my 706MKIIG in terms of RX
performance.  

I think the highest bang/buck ratio is still held by Elecraft and I don't
see that changing for quite a while...

73,
LS
W5QD



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Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[Joe Subich, W4TV]

If one is not a backpacker or wants 100W output - perhaps for mobile
work - the "traditional knob" interface, built in tuner, support for
the AH-3/AH-4 tuners at the antenna, 100W, etc. make the IC-7300 quite
interesting.  IIRC, the 7300 will do PSK31/RTTY with an internal
decoder and attached keyboard.  Icom's claimed RMDDR and phase noise
specifications will, if accurate, put the 7300 in the top echelon of
Sherwood's test results.  The 7300 has what appears to be relatively
"tight" preselectors which should minimize the "composite signal level"
ADC overload (much more than the Flex-6300 with no preselectors) and
those with limited antennas (e.g. mobile, compromise wires, etc.) are
even less likely to see the strong signal composite overload than
someone with big antennas high in the air.

My disappointment is that after claiming the 7300 would be an "entry
level" rig, the price is well above that of Icom's other entry level
rigs (the IC-718 or IC-7100).  At the announced price, the 7300 should
have included a RX ANT Out/RX ANT In "loop," support for a second
antenna, and a video output to feed a larger display.

At its size and power level the 7300 is not the "backpacker's special"
nor was it intended to be.  To make that comparison is patently unfair.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 3/1/2016 3:58 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

YES!  In addition to being a great mobile and fixed station rig, it's a
backpacker's dream! Last summer, I loaned my KX3/KXPA100 with a 20Ah
LiFePO4 battery to AF6RT and W6JTI, who dragged it up a 2 mile trail
with a 1,000 ft gain in elevation to light up a rare 6M grid. They were
also dragging an antenna, coax, a computer, water, and lunch. At the end
of the day, they still had power left in that battery.

73, Jim K9YC

On Tue,3/1/2016 12:08 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

Beyond that, the KX3:

  - is about 1/5th the size
  - is about 1/5th the weight
  - consumes probably 1/10th as much RX-mode current
  - has an internal battery
  - has an attached keyer paddle
  - has built-in stereo audio and CW/RTTY/PSK31 text decode with a PC
  - works with integrated peripherals (PX3 and KXPA100) that can be
left at
your fixed station when traveling

So if you're operating portable, it's an apples/oranges comparison.


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Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[Jim Brown]

YES!  In addition to being a great mobile and fixed station rig, it's a 
backpacker's dream! Last summer, I loaned my KX3/KXPA100 with a 20Ah 
LiFePO4 battery to AF6RT and W6JTI, who dragged it up a 2 mile trail 
with a 1,000 ft gain in elevation to light up a rare 6M grid. They were 
also dragging an antenna, coax, a computer, water, and lunch. At the end 
of the day, they still had power left in that battery.


73, Jim K9YC

On Tue,3/1/2016 12:08 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

Beyond that, the KX3:

  - is about 1/5th the size
  - is about 1/5th the weight
  - consumes probably 1/10th as much RX-mode current
  - has an internal battery
  - has an attached keyer paddle
  - has built-in stereo audio and CW/RTTY/PSK31 text decode with a PC
  - works with integrated peripherals (PX3 and KXPA100) that can be left at
your fixed station when traveling

So if you're operating portable, it's an apples/oranges comparison.


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Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[Wayne Burdick]

> 
> Beyond that, the KX3:
> 
> - has built-in stereo audio and CW/RTTY/PSK31 text decode with a PC

Typo. I meant "without" a PC. (But it will also work with one :)

Wayne


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Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[Wayne Burdick]

Hi Barry,

> Interesting. I wonder how it will compare to my KX3.
> 
> The only direct sampling complete rig that I was aware of was the Flex 6000 
> series. I also wonder if it will be as flexible in operation as a KX3. Ah 
> technology, and so little time. ;-)

Since the 7300 uses direct sampling, it will have the same blocking dynamic 
range (BDR) problem as other radios in this class, especially multi-signal 
situations such as contesting. I also doubt it will beat the KX3 in 
close-spaced dynamic range, unless they used a very exotic, very expensive 
A-to-D converter. (Note that the only way the Flex 6700 series can achieve good 
close-in dynamic range is by turning on the preamp. This overcomes the very 
poor preamp-off MDS, but at an even greater cost in BDR.)

Beyond that, the KX3:

 - is about 1/5th the size
 - is about 1/5th the weight
 - consumes probably 1/10th as much RX-mode current
 - has an internal battery 
 - has an attached keyer paddle
 - has built-in stereo audio and CW/RTTY/PSK31 text decode with a PC
 - works with integrated peripherals (PX3 and KXPA100) that can be left at 
   your fixed station when traveling 

So if you're operating portable, it's an apples/oranges comparison.

73,
Wayne
N6KR



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Re: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[Barry LaZar]

Interesting. I wonder how it will compare to my KX3. The only direct 
sampling complete rig that I was aware of was the Flex 6000 series. I 
also wonder if it will be as flexible in operation as a KX3. Ah 
technology, and so little time. ;-)


73,
Barry
K3NDM

-- Original Message --
From: "Bill" <w2...@nycap.rr.com>
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: 3/1/2016 2:02:32 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

Most of the dealers are showing the 7300 as either in stock or soon to 
be in stock at $1499.  Unique, in that it is a direct sampling 
receiver, has a live scope, and depends upon a touch screen for 
control. Not really my cuppa, but it will be interesting to watch this 
rig make its debut.


Bill W2BLC K-Line
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[Elecraft] Icom 7300 is available

[Bill]

Most of the dealers are showing the 7300 as either in stock or soon to 
be in stock at $1499.  Unique, in that it is a direct sampling receiver, 
has a live scope, and depends upon a touch screen for control. Not 
really my cuppa, but it will be interesting to watch this rig make its 
debut.


Bill W2BLC K-Line
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