[Elecraft] K rig's longevity?
As per the idea of "understanding" or determining the firmware code of a particular product - I am referring to legal situations. Example a company goes bankrupt and vanishes from the market - how do the surviving customers determine what it was that the company designed into the firmware? Or how can they continue, in some other fashion, to support and upgrade the firmware that existed. The list was discussing the "longevity" of rigs like the K3, etc. As a one who worked long hours in firmware & R&D groups - all sorts of situations need to be planned for. I guess the worst - if a "Index Labs" situation befell the Elecraft Inc. org. What happens then? Or a hostile takeover situation surfaced - ala kill the product. And, we as customers, what can we do, what can we request? Suddenly all the critical things surface; was the software documented? Can the customers some how obtain control of the last versions of the firmware/software? Did the designers use structure in their design, or was it more seat of the pants? Is the software full of "timed" loops, and critical timing software? Is the software even supported anymore in the industry? Is there a supported development system, for the software/firmware used? Given Elecraft's conservative customer-based nature - I suspect we, as customers, are in pretty good hands. As an engineer who worked many of these problems and worked with many other computer sci and firware designers in these trenches, I have natural technical concerns. Very bright computer engineers, can create some very difficult supportable software situations. Documentation, often is left to the end. We'll do all of that when we get time . I guess we are only talking a $2000 personal investment - worst case! Fred, de N3CSY western Florida Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K rig's longevity?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's documented, just not publicly. That could always change. There's no guarantee of any more than poorly commented source code and that is true of any actively maintained software, whether it comes from Elecraft or someone else. (It has been said that Microsoft wrote Wordpad because they lost the source code for Write, so using the binary is not enough.) I didn't know they had a limited life - how many operations? What is the failure mode? All electromechanical components have limited lives. Typical specified electrical lives for relays are 100,000 operations, with rather longer mechanical ones. This is why use of the KIO2 to scan across bands is discouraged. The manufacturers don't specify what constitutes a failure, but an electrical one is likely to be parametric, i.e. excessive contact resistance, or bounce, and a mechanical one might be sluggish changeover, fatigue failure, or, maybe they would count contact welding. Keeping the switched voltages and currents low, and avoiding inductive loads on the contacts may improve the electrical life, as will tolerating higher final contact resistances. (Note these are lifetimes and represent wearout failures. Components may also have random failures resulting in mean time between failure figures, which can actually (e.g. hard disks) exceed the wearout lifetime.) -- David Woolley Emails are not formal business letters, whatever businesses may want. RFC1855 says there should be an address here, but, in a world of spam, that is no longer good advice, as archive address hiding may not work. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K rig's longevity?
Fred (FL) wrote: I'm sure there are computer savvy wizs in the Elecraft community - with the ability to This is illegal in the USA and severely restricted in Europe. The copyright outlasts the company; it is just more difficult to work out who owns it. Also, one of the selling points of the PIC series is that you can prevent the program memory being read. As well as the copyright breach, any attempt to get round that in the USA would fall foul of the Digital Millenium Copyright Act. Heaven forbid - but should the corporate airplane go down in a hurricane, with all hands aboard - who's to keep the Elecraft firmware alive? Ditto, This is why I have already suggested that it be put in escrow (which is not the same as backup). Standard escrow arrangements don't protect against products being killed for marketing reasons, e.g. after a takeover, and only protect customers, not, for example, third party suppliers of replacement parts, so a standards escrow may not cover all concerns. say a unfriendly takeover, by Yaseu, etc.? Major companies, are supposed to worry about such rare happenings, for the customers sake. That normally only happens in business to business environments, where the customer is aware of the possibility of escrow and has the market power to get it into the contract. Even then, normal arrangements don't protect well against takeovers done to get a competing product off the market. I'm a computer programmer, not a lawyer. -- David Woolley Emails are not formal business letters, whatever businesses may want. RFC1855 says there should be an address here, but, in a world of spam, that is no longer good advice, as archive address hiding may not work. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K rig's longevity?
Retire at, or near 50? Are you kidding? (Wayne and I are both at the big five-o..) I tried it once, back in my 30's, and went crazy after a year of goofing off. After a year I started another company. (Verisys, Inc.) I'm not planning on retiring for a very long time, if ever. My father is still happily working at 75, not because he has to, but because he loves his work and it keeps his mind young. I plan to be doing the same. Elecraft is not venture capital backed and is fully owned by the founders, Wayne and myself. There are no external pressures to cash out. :-) 73, Eric WA6HHQ -- David Woolley wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The other issue is that Elecraft is a small company and we have discovered, this week, that one of their founders is turning 50 and another key technician learned algebra in the late 1950s, it seems to me that a lot of the key personnel are reaching the point where they think about retirement. As well as losing the product knowledge, founders of startup companies in that position often want to turn the value of the company into cash to fund their pensions. To me, the K3 could well be there in order to make the company sellable. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K rig's longevity?
In a message dated 9/30/07 6:17:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Will it be possible to keep a K2 working 35 years? I don't see why not, > given > > that almost all the parts are readily available, the documentation is wide > > > open and free, and expert assist is available from several sources. Plus > when > > Most of the documentation is closed, as, as you point out yourself, the > radio does a lot in software, and the software source isn't released; > not even the AuxBus protocol is documented. It's documented, just not publicly. That could always change. It's also the case that > > component substitution, including piggy backed surface mount parts, have > had to be made already. > > The impact of the closed software is that, even if you can get the PIC > chips, you won't be able to program them. Also, where the firmware has > restrictions for legal reasons, and these go away (e.g. the Thai > government permits use of additional amateur radio frequencies, or, on > my reading of the UK licence, and assuming the situation has arisen and > > Elecraft have actually complied, if a UK Novice gets a Full licence and > is therefore allowed to operate equipment that is not restricted, by > design, to authorised frequencies, the user may have trouble getting an > upgrade). > > ncidentally, making the software public domain is not a good idea, as > it will be ineffective in the UK, and most other countries, with the, > probable, exception of the USAb, and doesn't allow one to restrict > implied warranties. It's better to use a liberal and perpetual licence. > WHich could happen in the future. > The other issue is that Elecraft is a small company and we have > discovered, this week, that one of their founders is turning 50 and > another key technician learned algebra in the late 1950s, it seems to me > that a lot of the key personnel are reaching the point where they think > about retirement. Heck, I'm 53, and I was thinking about retirement 20+ years ago! As well as losing the product knowledge, founders of > > startup companies in that position often want to turn the value of the > company into cash to fund their pensions. To me, the K3 could well be > there in order to make the company sellable. My experience of > innovative startups, where the founders sell out, is poor. I've had to > leave my old ISP, because of the consequences of that. > Of course that could happen. But support of older products is an issue with *any* company nowadays. How many ham-rig manufacturers today give full support to rigs they made 20, 25, 30, 35 years ago? > From what I know of the hardware, I would be most worried about the K2 > headphone jack, as it is not particularly generic and a known weak > point. I'm also somewhat concerned about the relays. They are almost > > impossible for an individual to source and they have a limited life, and > the KAT2, in particular, hits them hard. > I didn't know they had a limited life - how many operations? What is the failure mode? --- It should be remembered that in most cases, the way old rigs are kept alive is a combination of: - replacing old parts with new equivalents (orange drop caps replacing old wax-and-paper caps), - custom-making new parts to replace the old (usually done to mechanical pieces) - finding old caches of parts (this is how I fixed a GE Fanuc Workmaster unit to program Series Six PLCs a few months ago) - cannibalism of parts-rigs to keep good ones working. 73 de Jim, N2EY ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
[Elecraft] K rig's longevity?
I'm sure there are computer savvy wizs in the Elecraft community - with the ability to "dis-assemble" the firmware in rigs like the K2 and K3. One would hope this is so, for the sake of the long time longevity of our firware. It would also require a unique close up and personal hardware knowledge of these rigs, and their chip sets. Heaven forbid - but should the corporate airplane go down in a hurricane, with all hands aboard - who's to keep the Elecraft firmware alive? Ditto, say a unfriendly takeover, by Yaseu, etc.? Major companies, are supposed to worry about such rare happenings, for the customers sake. PC CMOS BIOS is an example - which Phoenix Inc., did quite well at. I believe I have the example spelling right ? Fred, de N3CSY Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K rig's longevity?
Since I hardly ever post here, I have no guilt over doing so on this moderately controversial topic. Many software houses and embedded systems outfits make their software components available, only in the event of their demise, via escrow. Typically the escrowed software follows the comapny's assets as it is bought and sold. But it also may be released into the public domain or to a specific customer if the company's assets exceed its liabilities and no entity rescues it. "Going out of business" is the term I was looking for Escrow into the public domain is not typical, because most companies that fold still have residual assets, and usually someone buys them at fire sale prices. Many valuable [not market value, but value to each/any of the users] assets like this are locked up in "IP Farms", where IP = intellectual property. That's usually not good for a large user base, but it's reality. I believe the escrow writer can specify that the asset(s) may be disposed of in a certain way, and that this spec follows the asset(s) forever. But I've also heard of IP houses getting around this and locking the door forever. We used escrow and trade secret modes at a very interesting little crypto house I worked at a few years ago. Some of the agencies we did work for insisted on certain terms and conditions, and that the design disclosure include all data/specs on all components needed to reproduce the design in its entirety. All of the stuff that wasn't deliverable in the contract was held in escrow. Escrow may be a possibility for Elecraft, but they'd have to look into it. I have a feeling they're staying a little too busy to take the time. matt zilmer, WA6EGJ K2, s/n 2810 Upland, CA. == On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 23:16:04 +0100, you wrote: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> Will it be possible to keep a K2 working 35 years? I don't see why not, >> given >> that almost all the parts are readily available, the documentation is wide >> open and free, and expert assist is available from several sources. Plus >> when > >Most of the documentation is closed, as, as you point out yourself, the >radio does a lot in software, and the software source isn't released; >not even the AuxBus protocol is documented. It's also the case that >component substitution, including piggy backed surface mount parts, have >had to be made already. > >The impact of the closed software is that, even if you can get the PIC >chips, you won't be able to program them. Also, where the firmware has >restrictions for legal reasons, and these go away (e.g. the Thai >government permits use of additional amateur radio frequencies, or, on >my reading of the UK licence, and assuming the situation has arisen and >Elecraft have actually complied, if a UK Novice gets a Full licence and >is therefore allowed to operate equipment that is not restricted, by >design, to authorised frequencies, the user may have trouble getting an >upgrade). > >Incidentally, making the software public domain is not a good idea, as >it will be ineffective in the UK, and most other countries, with the, >probable, exception of the USAb, and doesn't allow one to restrict >implied warranties. It's better to use a liberal and perpetual licence. > >The other issue is that Elecraft is a small company and we have >discovered, this week, that one of their founders is turning 50 and >another key technician learned algebra in the late 1950s, it seems to me >that a lot of the key personnel are reaching the point where they think >about retirement. As well as losing the product knowledge, founders of >startup companies in that position often want to turn the value of the >company into cash to fund their pensions. To me, the K3 could well be >there in order to make the company sellable. My experience of >innovative startups, where the founders sell out, is poor. I've had to >leave my old ISP, because of the consequences of that. > > From what I know of the hardware, I would be most worried about the K2 >headphone jack, as it is not particularly generic and a known weak >point. I'm also somewhat concerned about the relays. They are almost >impossible for an individual to source and they have a limited life, and >the KAT2, in particular, hits them hard. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K rig's longevity?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Will it be possible to keep a K2 working 35 years? I don't see why not, given that almost all the parts are readily available, the documentation is wide open and free, and expert assist is available from several sources. Plus when Most of the documentation is closed, as, as you point out yourself, the radio does a lot in software, and the software source isn't released; not even the AuxBus protocol is documented. It's also the case that component substitution, including piggy backed surface mount parts, have had to be made already. The impact of the closed software is that, even if you can get the PIC chips, you won't be able to program them. Also, where the firmware has restrictions for legal reasons, and these go away (e.g. the Thai government permits use of additional amateur radio frequencies, or, on my reading of the UK licence, and assuming the situation has arisen and Elecraft have actually complied, if a UK Novice gets a Full licence and is therefore allowed to operate equipment that is not restricted, by design, to authorised frequencies, the user may have trouble getting an upgrade). Incidentally, making the software public domain is not a good idea, as it will be ineffective in the UK, and most other countries, with the, probable, exception of the USAb, and doesn't allow one to restrict implied warranties. It's better to use a liberal and perpetual licence. The other issue is that Elecraft is a small company and we have discovered, this week, that one of their founders is turning 50 and another key technician learned algebra in the late 1950s, it seems to me that a lot of the key personnel are reaching the point where they think about retirement. As well as losing the product knowledge, founders of startup companies in that position often want to turn the value of the company into cash to fund their pensions. To me, the K3 could well be there in order to make the company sellable. My experience of innovative startups, where the founders sell out, is poor. I've had to leave my old ISP, because of the consequences of that. From what I know of the hardware, I would be most worried about the K2 headphone jack, as it is not particularly generic and a known weak point. I'm also somewhat concerned about the relays. They are almost impossible for an individual to source and they have a limited life, and the KAT2, in particular, hits them hard. -- David Woolley Emails are not formal business letters, whatever businesses may want. RFC1855 says there should be an address here, but, in a world of spam, that is no longer good advice, as archive address hiding may not work. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K rig's longevity?
On Sat, 29 Sep 2007 19:11:01 -0400, JT Croteau wrote: > I have seen many great products that end up dying a useless >death because code was sold to people who never did anything >with it. I fear that about the very same mail client that I am using to post this message. PMMail started as a mail client designed by two graduate students for the IBM OS/2 operating system which I was running at the time. It was head and shoulders above anything available at the time in features and ease of use. Because of the popularity of the Windows operating systems, they ported it to that platform several years later. They also developed a news reader for OS/2 that had the same "look and feel" as the mail client but never ported it to Windows, and arranged sales of their products through a specific distributor which eventually got the rights to the programs. After they graduated from college and lost interest in developing future versions, they went their own ways and there hasn't been any upgrades in the last four years. Rumor has it that they have sold the source code for their OS/2 product to an individual who may or may not rewrite it - I stopped using the OS/2 platform several years ago. No upgrades to the Windows product is expected, nor a port of the newsreader to the Windows platform. As a result I have had to migrate to Forte Agent, a top-of-the-line newsreader, but it doesn't have all the features that the OS/2 newsreader had. With the plethora of mail clients available, why an I sticking to this program? It has two features that I haven't found in any of the other programs - it saves messages as individual text messages rather than buried in a data base, and it permits the use of an external text editor for both composing and reading messages. Will the same thing happen with our K-line gear? I certainly hope not. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402 ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K rig's longevity?
Speaking of longevity.. When that dreaded day comes when Elecraft, *gasp*, becomes a SK (yes, that day eventually comes to everyone), I hope the men at the helm are somehow able to contribute the source code for their firmware to the public domain. With the code available after Elecrafts demise, the existing rigs can live on much better I have seen many great products that end up dying a useless death because code was sold to people who never did anything with it. -- JT Croteau, N1ESE - Manchester, NH (FN42gx) ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K rig's longevity?
"MPU's or other IC's are fazed out and no longer made by the manufacture. They will usually spec a replacement but it is usually not pin or software compatible. . ." OTOH, I was able to buy a kit to repair the dead display on an FT107 (also fits 901 and 902). The original display driver was a custom made chip and I can't fault Yaesu for not re-ordering a stock. Digital displays were still in their infancy around the time the 901 came out and the 107 rig 'borrowed' the design. The two display drivers I was able to buy were the result of an enterprising individuals effort with a PIC chip and a few parts. Now I have a working rig and a spare for one of the other two rigs that have the same display. Plus, if it really came down to it I have a design I can clone. My point is, as time goes by, newer hardware that comes on the market will be capable of replacing outdated electronics, IF we are up to doing the redesign. Most of the problems we experience today are the result of custom made chips - most of which can be mimicked with newer universally programmable device. The future will offer us many options we don't now have. It'll be selecomething the younger generation can eat for breakfast. Al WA6VNN ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K rig's longevity?
Hi I am an OEM supplier of controllers used in the waste water business. I have needed to do a redesign at least 3 or 4 times in the last 10 years because the MPU's or other IC's are fazed out and no longer made by the manufacture. They will usually spec a replacement but it is usually not pin or software compatible. This is the problem I see with all ham radios that use large scale IC's and or custom IC's. As long as the radio is working I don't see any problem with it lasting 15 to 35 years. But if you get a lightening hit or some part just fails you you be out of luck unless it is just some discrete part like a resistor, capacitor or transistor (even some transistors are no longer made although you can usually find something that will work) Don Brown KD5NDB - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 6:52 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K rig's longevity? > That last one is a biggie. A lot of vintage gear survives on the air > because > it's easy to keep going. A lot of newer gear is relegated to the heap > because > you can't get parts, or the skills/tools/test gear/documentation needed to > fix > it are rare and expensive. > > Will it be possible to keep a K2 working 35 years? I don't see why not, > given > that almost all the parts are readily available, the documentation is wide > open and free, and expert assist is available from several sources. Plus > when > you get right down > to it, the hardware part isn't all that complicated because so much is > done > in software. > > 73 de Jim, N2EY > > ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K rig's longevity?
At 9/29/2007 07:52 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >- How easy it is to keep working > >That last one is a biggie. A lot of vintage gear survives on the air because >it's easy to keep going. A lot of newer gear is relegated to the heap because >you can't get parts, or the skills/tools/test gear/documentation needed to fix >it are rare and expensive. > >Will it be possible to keep a K2 working 35 years? I don't see why not, given >that almost all the parts are readily available, the documentation is wide >open and free, and expert assist is available from several sources. Plus when >you get right down >to it, the hardware part isn't all that complicated because so much is done >in software. I would have my doubts. If nothing breaks, mine will be on. But, what if something needs to be fixed? will you be able to get a specific PIC microcontroller in 35 years if yours blows an output port? I doubt it. Yeah, you can still get a 6146 or 12SN7 or whatever because they are somewhat generic and were common to many gear. Someone still cranks out some tubes and if the tube doesn't exist anymore for what ever reason, then you can build an equivalent out of a fet and some resistors. You can't easily do that with an integrated part. As electronic equipment becomes more integrated (and not just ham gear), the more it becomes disposable because of the high cost of labor it takes to fix it, the lack of specific knowledge it takes to fix it, and the availability of parts. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K rig's longevity?
In a message dated 9/27/07 8:34:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > his whole station was classic - vintage > stuff. I mentioned it and he said "it got old by itself. It was new > when I bought it 35 yrs ago HI HI". > > And that got me thinking. > > In 35 years will be still be running our K3s and K2s? Some will. For that matter > > are any rigs being built today going to be considered useful 30 yrs from > now? As I ponder the question, I come to the answer of "no". I disagree. Look how many rigs much older than 35 years are still on the air. I believe > > they won't be but not because of any deficiency in the gear. On the > contrary, I suspect the K3 / K2 rigs just as durable and able to > continue operations for many decades, probably more. I believe they > won't be applicable in the future because we as a group of hams have > shifted our thoughts. We're largely caught up with getting the next > thing. We're expecting gear to change yearly and are prone to dump what > we have and upgrade. With that mentality, there is no rig that will > stand the test of time because we won't keep it. But that's nothing new. With a few exceptions, like the Collins S-line, most models of 'vintage' ham gear were only produced for a few years. This is particularly true if you consider various upgrades and versions as new models. Consider the Drake "4 line" receivers - they made the R4, R4A, R4B and R4C over a period of a dozen years or so, then stopped. Each version was a change over the previous, with the C version being quite different from its predecessors. Compare that to the K2 which has been on the market for 8 years with only two versions. The rigmakers of the past were constantly feeding that desire to get the next new thing, same as today. > > I know I'm part of the "problem" here. My K2 is 1.5 yrs old and I'm > considering selling to get a K3. The oldest piece of gear in my shack > is my MFJ antenna analyzer and that is about 3 yrs old. Everything else > is either new or is something I've bought in the last couple of years. > I just don't stick with anything for long. Oh wait, I take that back. > The aluminum from which I built my vertical antenna is about 10 yrs old. > That's really just personal preference. I've known hams who would buy and sell rigs all the time, and others who would hold onto something forever. It all depends on the person and their interests. One thing that *has* changed is the inflation-adjusted cost of our rigs. 40 years ago, when I became a ham, even bottom-of-the-line ham gear was a major investment for most people. New equipment even more so. Look up how much that S-line cost in its time, and then how much a typical ham earned in the same era. Think how many hours of work went into earning it. > As K9TTM and I chatted back and forth I was thinking about how it would > be to keep the same rig for decades. To always have that old friend > ready to go. I listened to his signal and thought about relay-based > semi break-in. I thought about tube warm-up. I thought about tuning > finals. I thought about 1000 Hz side tone. I listened to his signal > and adjusted my RIT to match his drift. I then looked at my K2 and was > VERY happy to not be running an old classic rig. Hams had full-break in way back in the 1930s. More than 30 years ago, I had it in a homebrew rig. Heck, the old HW-16 had full QSK. Warm-up with tube rigs varies with the design. An S-line or 4-line settles down pretty fast. Some older rigs would never stop drifting. Most were somewhere in between. Tuning up is something you learn to do and it becomes easy. And there's an advantage: many vintage rigs will operate into fairly high SWRs without a transmatch. If you didn't like the sidetone, it could be changed pretty easily on most rigs. There's lots more. The old gear was fun, and the new gear is fun - most of it, anyway. What's really important is that we have so many choices. > That silly little kit on my desk which cost far less than the S-Line > when new, works much better and has more features that Art Collins could > have dreamed of. Its design is also 40+ years newer. -- IMHO, the factors determining a rig's longevity (meaning how long it is kept in active use) are: - How much its features match current operating practices. - Size, weight and power consumption (not many folks have room for a Desk Kilowatt) - How many were made - How easy it is to keep working That last one is a biggie. A lot of vintage gear survives on the air because it's easy to keep going. A lot of newer gear is relegated to the heap because you can't get parts, or the skills/tools/test gear/documentation needed to fix it are rare and expensive. Will it be possible to keep a K2 working 35 years? I don't see why not, given that almost all the parts are readily available, the documentation is wide open and free, and expert assist is available
Re: [Elecraft] K rig's longevity?
I for one plan on keeping my K2, and at some point getting a K3. I am 46 years old, and expect these rigs to last me a considerable amount of time. I very much agree. I use my K1 for mobile operating and will likely never discard it. (Barring catastrophic failure, of course.) It matters not how old it becomes, just that it works and works well. I will likely take the K3 plunge at some point in time, however, I'll never discard my K2. How many of you had a piece of Collins gear when you were... ahem, "younger?" To those who subsequently dicarded theirs: If you "knew then what you know now," would you still have parted with that piece Collins gear? Like Collins or Heathkit, Elecraft gear become instant classic vintage and I, for one, do not want to ever regret letting any of my Elecraft gear go. My $0.02. As always, take care es... Vy 73 de Bert WA2SI ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] K rig's longevity?
I "plan". Boy David, I hear you. The K2 is my dream rig. Great performance at a low price. It is my choice over every other rig out there. Period. I plan to keep it and use it and continue to love it. Then Elecraft brings out this "K3" thing. And my "plan" gets pulled out from under my feet. When I get a K3 I'm sure it will keep me very happy ... until Elecraft comes out with the K4. I'm not hooked. I can stop anytime. Really. *sigh* - Keith N1AS - - K2 5411.ssb.100 - -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Wilburn I for one plan on keeping my K2, and at some point getting a K3. I am 46 years old, and expect these rigs to last me a considerable amount of time. But who knows, something "new" from Elecraft, could likely change my mind in the next 20 years or so. ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K rig's longevity?
Well stated. I for one plan on keeping my K2, and at some point getting a K3. I am 46 years old, and expect these rigs to last me a considerable amount of time. But who knows, something "new" from Elecraft, could likely change my mind in the next 20 years or so. David Wilburn [EMAIL PROTECTED] K4DGW K2 #5982 FP#-1751 Darwin, Keith wrote: I had an interesting QSO last night. K9TTM, very sweet CW call. He was running a Collins S-line and SB200 amp. His keyer was a homebuilt unit from the 1960s. paddles were Vibrokeyers. His tuner was a Johnson Matchbox. In other words, his whole station was classic - vintage stuff. I mentioned it and he said "it got old by itself. It was new when I bought it 35 yrs ago HI HI". And that got me thinking. In 35 years will be still be running our K3s and K2s? For that matter are any rigs being built today going to be considered useful 30 yrs from now? As I ponder the question, I come to the answer of "no". I believe they won't be but not because of any deficiency in the gear. On the contrary, I suspect the K3 / K2 rigs just as durable and able to continue operations for many decades, probably more. I believe they won't be applicable in the future because we as a group of hams have shifted our thoughts. We're largely caught up with getting the next thing. We're expecting gear to change yearly and are prone to dump what we have and upgrade. With that mentality, there is no rig that will stand the test of time because we won't keep it. I know I'm part of the "problem" here. My K2 is 1.5 yrs old and I'm considering selling to get a K3. The oldest piece of gear in my shack is my MFJ antenna analyzer and that is about 3 yrs old. Everything else is either new or is something I've bought in the last couple of years. I just don't stick with anything for long. Oh wait, I take that back. The aluminum from which I built my vertical antenna is about 10 yrs old. As K9TTM and I chatted back and forth I was thinking about how it would be to keep the same rig for decades. To always have that old friend ready to go. I listened to his signal and thought about relay-based semi break-in. I thought about tube warm-up. I thought about tuning finals. I thought about 1000 Hz side tone. I listened to his signal and adjusted my RIT to match his drift. I then looked at my K2 and was VERY happy to not be running an old classic rig. That silly little kit on my desk which cost far less than the S-Line when new, works much better and has more features that Art Collins could have dreamed of. - Keith N1AS - - K2 5411.ssb.100 - ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K rig's longevity?
The older one becomes, the less important "new" is. Can't begin to remember all the radios I've owned during the earlier part of my 55 years in the hobby. We traded our 1st VW bug in because it had 22K miles on it and was "getting old"! The last one had 226K miles on it. I remember trying a different wire antenna every few days/weeks, looking for that magic one that was better than the last. Took me years to realize that any apparent differences were most likely due to how good propagation was on a particular day. (;-) I've had my 80M Zepp in the air for at least 30 years My Lady (N7HKW) and I have been married ... to each other ... for 52 years. She gets all the credit. (:-)) 73! Ken Kopp - K0PP [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] K rig's longevity?
On Thu, 27 Sep 2007, Darwin, Keith wrote: As K9TTM and I chatted back and forth I was thinking about how it would be to keep the same rig for decades. To always have that old friend ready to go. I listened to his signal and thought about relay-based semi break-in. I thought about tube warm-up. I thought about tuning finals. I thought about 1000 Hz side tone. I listened to his signal and adjusted my RIT to match his drift. I then looked at my K2 and was VERY happy to not be running an old classic rig. You might want to view some of the threads in mailing lists or web forums where some of us talk about still operating some of the gear we've had for xx years. I still have some gear that was 15 years old when I first used it 30 plus years ago. Will it be as modern as my Elecraft...nope. Will I rush out and dump my K2 after the K3 is herenope. But then, I am not into the newest cars, and the latest toys (g). Thom,EIEIO Email, Internet, Electronic Information Officer www.baltimorehon.com/Home of the Baltimore Lexicon www.tlchost.net/hosting/ Web Hosting as low as 3.49/month ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
[Elecraft] K rig's longevity?
I had an interesting QSO last night. K9TTM, very sweet CW call. He was running a Collins S-line and SB200 amp. His keyer was a homebuilt unit from the 1960s. paddles were Vibrokeyers. His tuner was a Johnson Matchbox. In other words, his whole station was classic - vintage stuff. I mentioned it and he said "it got old by itself. It was new when I bought it 35 yrs ago HI HI". And that got me thinking. In 35 years will be still be running our K3s and K2s? For that matter are any rigs being built today going to be considered useful 30 yrs from now? As I ponder the question, I come to the answer of "no". I believe they won't be but not because of any deficiency in the gear. On the contrary, I suspect the K3 / K2 rigs just as durable and able to continue operations for many decades, probably more. I believe they won't be applicable in the future because we as a group of hams have shifted our thoughts. We're largely caught up with getting the next thing. We're expecting gear to change yearly and are prone to dump what we have and upgrade. With that mentality, there is no rig that will stand the test of time because we won't keep it. I know I'm part of the "problem" here. My K2 is 1.5 yrs old and I'm considering selling to get a K3. The oldest piece of gear in my shack is my MFJ antenna analyzer and that is about 3 yrs old. Everything else is either new or is something I've bought in the last couple of years. I just don't stick with anything for long. Oh wait, I take that back. The aluminum from which I built my vertical antenna is about 10 yrs old. As K9TTM and I chatted back and forth I was thinking about how it would be to keep the same rig for decades. To always have that old friend ready to go. I listened to his signal and thought about relay-based semi break-in. I thought about tube warm-up. I thought about tuning finals. I thought about 1000 Hz side tone. I listened to his signal and adjusted my RIT to match his drift. I then looked at my K2 and was VERY happy to not be running an old classic rig. That silly little kit on my desk which cost far less than the S-Line when new, works much better and has more features that Art Collins could have dreamed of. - Keith N1AS - - K2 5411.ssb.100 - ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
