Re: [Elecraft] K1-4 4 band version gone? (Hand SMT---Never)
Hi all, as I started that idea with the SMT components, I will try to moderate a little bit. I am over sixty and so I know the problems with needs of special glasses to handle the SMT components down at 603 or 402 ( 1 x 0.5mm). So my idea is, not designing without SMT, but for those who like it, provide kits with premounted SMT , so that these users may build their kit without the needToday to handle and solder SMT "sand". Today in some cases the "wanted" parts are no longer available as THT. In the future this will be the case for more and more parts. The most evil thing is, that some very interesting part are even today only available as BGA SMT which needs the handling by special tools or machine just for the placement ?! So let's have fun and let's not forget to prepare a way for those which can not or are unwilling to solder SMT Humberto . Am 21.07.2014 14:40, schrieb N4OI - Ken: > Wow -- I kind of touched a nerve with the "big boy" reference! I recall this > term was used by Dave Benson in some of his SWL kit documentation. It > merely referred the reader to a stripped-down section of the instructions if > one wanted to bypass the lengthy, step-by-step narrative... My point is > that manufacturers, such as the premier innovator, Elecraft, should not be > constrained in their product designs by offering only through-hole or > solder-only kits. Why, even TenTec has leap-frogged the industry in this > area with their open-source, Rebel QRP platforms! > > I apologize for the poor use of words. As a relative newcomer to ham radio, > it was not my intention to denigrate anyone on this reflector - especially > those who have vastly superior technical knowledge and capabilities. > > 73 > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Re-K1-4-4-band-version-gone-Hand-SMT-Never-tp7591431p7591475.html > Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to hwschu...@sapo.pt > -- Cumprimentos / Freundliche Grüsse / Best regards Herbert W. Schulte __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K1-4 4 band version gone? (Hand SMT---Never)
Simple SMD kits are fine because the success rate can be high and the investment risk on the part of both the customer and the manufacturer is low. We may offer such kits in the future, though we don't have any present plans for these. The percentage of builders who could complete a complex SMD kit, or have the skill and test gear to troubleshoot them, is small. Kitting and documentation alone would be a huge investment for us, not to mention customer support. Many such kits would never be finished, or repaired, or would have mysterious unresolved issues. Perceived quality would suffer and frustration levels would go way up. One thing Elecraft is known for is packing a lot of functionality into a small space. This requires the use of very fine-pitch TQFP IC packages as well as 0603 passives (even 0402 in a few cases). To make SMD kits viable at all we'd have to use much larger-pitch parts. This would force products to be larger, heavier, and more expensive. Even though a small percentage of customers would be willing and able, this simply isn't an economically viable direction for us. 73, Wayne N6KR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K1-4 4 band version gone? (Hand SMT---Never)
Am 21.07.2014 14:40, schrieb N4OI - Ken: > Wow -- I kind of touched a nerve with the "big boy" reference! I recall this > term was used by Dave Benson in some of his SWL kit documentation. It > merely referred the reader to a stripped-down section of the instructions if > one wanted to bypass the lengthy, step-by-step narrative... My point is > that manufacturers, such as the premier innovator, Elecraft, should not be > constrained in their product designs by offering only through-hole or > solder-only kits. Why, even TenTec has leap-frogged the industry in this > area with their open-source, Rebel QRP platforms! > > I apologize for the poor use of words. As a relative newcomer to ham radio, > it was not my intention to denigrate anyone on this reflector - especially > those who have vastly superior technical knowledge and capabilities. > > 73 > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Re-K1-4-4-band-version-gone-Hand-SMT-Never-tp7591431p7591475.html > Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to hwschu...@sapo.pt > -- Cumprimentos / Freundliche Grüsse / Best regards Herbert W. Schulte __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K1-4 4 band version gone? (Hand SMT---Never
I don't think it's a matter of technique, Bob. I have all the right equipment (the special tweezers, solder paste - in the fridge, a hot plate, a heat gun). And I will do small, simple boards -- which even a 4-band K1 would not be. My problem is knowing that an ill timed sneeze can cause a serious problem - and it has. Plus as I age my hands get a bit shaky, another problem. So I avoid SMT whenever possible, to the point of paying someone else to do it as in a recent project. Phil W7OX On 7/21/14, 7:42 AM, riese-k3...@juno.com wrote: while this string is open I have used a small Iron and tweezers to position chip caps/resistors tack one end and then do the other end,,, I use some liquid rosin the multi lead devices make sure leads are centered on the board then tack one pin,,, solder the rest and use solder wick to clean up bridges working under a mag light,,, than I go over it with a 10 power stereo microscope static strap fer sure however when I built a DEM 1296 transverter board a chip cap got away from me and couldnt find it,, when I was done I found it sticking to my thumb nail go figure Bob K3DJC On Sun, 20 Jul 2014 19:32:12 -0400 "Bruce Beford" writes: While I understand this mindset; I for one, am grateful that there are SMT-based kits available. I enjoy building both thru-hole and SMT based projects. In many cases, thru hole equivalents are not available for some components. I have built many all-SMT projects, notably those offered by KD1JV,ad formerly NJQRP (now Midnight Design Solutions), among others __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] K1-4 4 band version gone? (Hand SMT---Never
while this string is open I have used a small Iron and tweezers to position chip caps/resistors tack one end and then do the other end,,, I use some liquid rosin the multi lead devices make sure leads are centered on the board then tack one pin,,, solder the rest and use solder wick to clean up bridges working under a mag light,,, than I go over it with a 10 power stereo microscope static strap fer sure however when I built a DEM 1296 transverter board a chip cap got away from me and couldnt find it,, when I was done I found it sticking to my thumb nail go figure Bob K3DJC On Sun, 20 Jul 2014 19:32:12 -0400 "Bruce Beford" writes: > While I understand this mindset; I for one, am grateful that there > are > SMT-based kits available. I enjoy building both thru-hole and SMT > based > projects. In many cases, thru hole equivalents are not available for > some > components. I have built many all-SMT projects, notably those > offered by > KD1JV,ad formerly NJQRP (now Midnight Design Solutions), among > others __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K1-4 4 band version gone? (Hand SMT---Never)
Wow -- I kind of touched a nerve with the "big boy" reference! I recall this term was used by Dave Benson in some of his SWL kit documentation. It merely referred the reader to a stripped-down section of the instructions if one wanted to bypass the lengthy, step-by-step narrative... My point is that manufacturers, such as the premier innovator, Elecraft, should not be constrained in their product designs by offering only through-hole or solder-only kits. Why, even TenTec has leap-frogged the industry in this area with their open-source, Rebel QRP platforms! I apologize for the poor use of words. As a relative newcomer to ham radio, it was not my intention to denigrate anyone on this reflector - especially those who have vastly superior technical knowledge and capabilities. 73 -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Re-K1-4-4-band-version-gone-Hand-SMT-Never-tp7591431p7591475.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K1-4 4 band version gone? (Hand SMT---Never)
Oh yes, that! I didn't think of it as SMT because it has four leads. Took me a while to figure out how to orient it, though. I sneezed and almost lost that critter. And I have two spares -- so mine is likely to last forever. Phil W7OX On 7/20/14, 5:30 PM, Matt Maguire wrote: ObElecraftContent: Elecraft does have a kit where you have to solder an SMT device -- the wideband noise generator. I got to practice twice with that one: once when I first build it, and then again after I have a little accident with a transmitter :-) I was going to try to remove the damaged component with a hot air rework station that I picked up recently, but with the plastic battery holder etc. nearby, thought better of it and just snipped off the fried component with my side cutters, with no dramas. 73, Matt VK2RQ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K1-4 4 band version gone? (Hand SMT---Never)
I build all my SMT projects with my 30+ year old Weller WTCPT iron, and an Optivisor. Have been for years now. Bruce/N1RX Jim/ AD6CW wrote:More power to you and others who have the patience, equipment and eyesight/hand coordination to work with SMT devices, Bruce. I think what many of us are saying, is that type of construction is not for everyone. I have a nice Weller soldering station and a variety of tips for it, as well as enough 63/37 solder to last a lifetime. Somehow it fell into my tool pouch from time to time, when I was in the Air Force working on air traffic control radar systems. :-) I'd rather spend my money on other items for the shack, than for the tools necessary to do SMT work. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K1-4 4 band version gone? (Hand SMT---Never)
My first experience with SMT was building a softrock multiband receiver kit. It is a hybrid through hole/SMT kit, with few different types of SMT devices. I really enjoyed building it, and learned a lot from it, and would recommend it to anyone wanting to dip their toe in the water, so to speak. ObElecraftContent: Elecraft does have a kit where you have to solder an SMT device -- the wideband noise generator. I got to practice twice with that one: once when I first build it, and then again after I have a little accident with a transmitter :-) I was going to try to remove the damaged component with a hot air rework station that I picked up recently, but with the plastic battery holder etc. nearby, thought better of it and just snipped off the fried component with my side cutters, with no dramas. 73, Matt VK2RQ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K1-4 4 band version gone? (Hand SMT---Never)
More power to you and others who have the patience, equipment and eyesight/hand coordination to work with SMT devices, Bruce. I think what many of us are saying, is that type of construction is not for everyone. I have a nice Weller soldering station and a variety of tips for it, as well as enough 63/37 solder to last a lifetime. Somehow it fell into my tool pouch from time to time, when I was in the Air Force working on air traffic control radar systems. :-) I'd rather spend my money on other items for the shack, than for the tools necessary to do SMT work. Maybe if there hadn't been the inference that we weren't "big boys" if we didn't build kits with SMT devices, this thread may have passed, unnoticed. 73 de Jim - AD6CW On 7/20/2014 4:32 PM, Bruce Beford wrote: While I understand this mindset; I for one, am grateful that there are SMT-based kits available. I enjoy building both thru-hole and SMT based projects. In many cases, thru hole equivalents are not available for some components. I have built many all-SMT projects, notably those offered by KD1JV,ad formerly NJQRP (now Midnight Design Solutions), among others. No, they are not for everyone. But- I am glad they are offered for those of us who can and do enjoy building them. It is not nearly as difficult as some seem to believe it to be. Different techniques are required, that's all. In many cases, a much more compact package, or an otherwise impossible project is the result. Bruce/N1RX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K1-4 4 band version gone? (Hand SMT---Never)
Support your local "maker space", they will likely have the gear and knowledge to do SMT… and probably a bunch of young guys that have never seen HAM before or know the potential. On Jul 20, 2014, at 3:04 PM, Jim Lowman wrote: > I have to agree with Mike, especially with the assertion about SMT components > being intended for robotic assembly. > > Imagine all of the troubleshooting calls and e-mails that Elecraft would get > if Joe Ham had to populate circuit boards with these miniature components. > Too much room for error. > > While I'd prefer a through-hole kit where soldering was required (although I > hate winding toroids!), like the K1 and K2, if the KX3 had even one SMT > device, I would not have purchased one. > > 72/73 de Jim - AD6CW > > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to rgcon...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K1-4 4 band version gone? (Hand SMT---Never)
While I understand this mindset; I for one, am grateful that there are SMT-based kits available. I enjoy building both thru-hole and SMT based projects. In many cases, thru hole equivalents are not available for some components. I have built many all-SMT projects, notably those offered by KD1JV,ad formerly NJQRP (now Midnight Design Solutions), among others. No, they are not for everyone. But- I am glad they are offered for those of us who can and do enjoy building them. It is not nearly as difficult as some seem to believe it to be. Different techniques are required, that's all. In many cases, a much more compact package, or an otherwise impossible project is the result. Bruce/N1RX > I have to agree with Mike, especially with the assertion about SMT > components being intended for robotic assembly. > Imagine all of the troubleshooting calls and e-mails that Elecraft would > get if Joe Ham had to populate circuit boards with these miniature > components. Too much room for error. > While I'd prefer a through-hole kit where soldering was required > (although I hate winding toroids!), like the K1 and K2, if the KX3 had > even one SMT device, I would not have purchased one. > 72/73 de Jim - AD6CW __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K1-4 4 band version gone? (Hand SMT---Never)
I have to agree with Mike, especially with the assertion about SMT components being intended for robotic assembly. Imagine all of the troubleshooting calls and e-mails that Elecraft would get if Joe Ham had to populate circuit boards with these miniature components. Too much room for error. While I'd prefer a through-hole kit where soldering was required (although I hate winding toroids!), like the K1 and K2, if the KX3 had even one SMT device, I would not have purchased one. 72/73 de Jim - AD6CW On 7/20/2014 9:55 AM, Mike Morrow wrote: ... perhaps it is time for Elecraft to start offering some "big boy" kits that make full use of SMTs and other modern components. Some would likely take exception to that strong implication that one is not a "big boy" (whatever that means) if one rejects significant SMT hand application. I've been a ham almost 50 years, commercial radiotelegraph licensed until standards dropped 20 years ago, and an electrical engineer for 40 years...is that "big boy" enough? Perhaps not...yet I'm not hesitant to state that hand-application of SMT components is a "half-vast" :-) misapplication of technique to devices designed solely for machine placement. It should never be required in any step of production of a commercial product, even for hams. So, to any enterprise proposing to *sell* something that requires significant SMT hand-application, I would *not* give such a product even a moment's consideration. OTOH, supply the PCBs with SMTs pre-fixed by machine as designed, and I'll likely be very interested. Any serious ham should have a good digital 'scope, and a hot air solder station with a syringe of solder paste (which can be bought new for less than $100). Well...there you go again. I suspect most of us will just *never* qualify as a N4OI "serious ham", for lack of meeting these canonical and doubtless universally-recognized requirements for the title. :-) 73, Mike / KK5F __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] K1-4 4 band version gone? (Hand SMT---Never)
> ... perhaps it is time for Elecraft to start offering some "big boy" kits > that make full use of SMTs and other modern components. Some would likely take exception to that strong implication that one is not a "big boy" (whatever that means) if one rejects significant SMT hand application. I've been a ham almost 50 years, commercial radiotelegraph licensed until standards dropped 20 years ago, and an electrical engineer for 40 years...is that "big boy" enough? Perhaps not...yet I'm not hesitant to state that hand-application of SMT components is a "half-vast" :-) misapplication of technique to devices designed solely for machine placement. It should never be required in any step of production of a commercial product, even for hams. So, to any enterprise proposing to *sell* something that requires significant SMT hand-application, I would *not* give such a product even a moment's consideration. OTOH, supply the PCBs with SMTs pre-fixed by machine as designed, and I'll likely be very interested. > Any serious ham should have a good digital 'scope, and a hot air solder > station with a syringe of solder paste (which can be bought new for less > than $100). Well...there you go again. I suspect most of us will just *never* qualify as a N4OI "serious ham", for lack of meeting these canonical and doubtless universally-recognized requirements for the title. :-) 73, Mike / KK5F __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
