[Elecraft] K3 in a CW pileup - version 3
Here is an improved method for keeping loud pileups in the linear
gain region of the K3, improving copy. This method takes
advantage of the recently-discussed fact that K3 overall gain is
reduced when you turn AGC OFF.
1. Dedicate an F-Key in your logging program to turn off agc
whenever a loud pileup shows up. Turn it off on both rigs if you
are so2r. In N1MM, the macro is:
{CAT1ASC SWH027;}{CAT2ASC SWH027;}
2. Add to the exchange message a command to turn fast agc back
on (for both rigs in so2r). In N1MM, the macro is:
{CAT1ASC GT002;}{CAT2ASC GT002;}
The effect of the above is that agc is turned off, and gain is
reduced, only while you are struggling to pick a callsign out of
a loud pileup. As soon as you send the exchange, fast agc is
restored, and gain goes back up on both rigs.
Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, AZ
.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a CW pileup - version 3
I don't EVER use fast AGC in a contest. It makes things hard to copy. I
always use slow AGC set to its fastest setting, that's long enough to keep
the loud bauds linearly loud, and short enough to recover when the loud
station gets worked. 73, Guy.
On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 9:23 PM, Dave Hachadorian k...@arrl.net wrote:
Here is an improved method for keeping loud pileups in the linear
gain region of the K3, improving copy. This method takes
advantage of the recently-discussed fact that K3 overall gain is
reduced when you turn AGC OFF.
1. Dedicate an F-Key in your logging program to turn off agc
whenever a loud pileup shows up. Turn it off on both rigs if you
are so2r. In N1MM, the macro is:
{CAT1ASC SWH027;}{CAT2ASC SWH027;}
2. Add to the exchange message a command to turn fast agc back
on (for both rigs in so2r). In N1MM, the macro is:
{CAT1ASC GT002;}{CAT2ASC GT002;}
The effect of the above is that agc is turned off, and gain is
reduced, only while you are struggling to pick a callsign out of
a loud pileup. As soon as you send the exchange, fast agc is
restored, and gain goes back up on both rigs.
Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, AZ
.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a CW pileup
Richard Ferch wrote
A simpler way to do this would be {CAT1ASC RG100;} (no ASCII-to-hex
conversion required).
An even simpler and more rate-friendly way is work the loud guy(s), and move
on.
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[Elecraft] K3 in a CW pileup
If you are on the receiving end of a CW pileup, with several loud
signals, it becomes difficult to separate them because the K3's
AGC compresses them together. You have to reach over and reduce
the RF gain to get everybody back on the linear part of the gain
curve.
You can very quickly reduce RF gain by hitting an F-Key on your
logging program. N1MM Logger is used as an example, but other
loggers can send commands too.
The command RG100; sets the K3's RF gain at 100. It can be any
number from 000 to 255. In N1MM, this is implemented by the
macro
{cat1hex 52 47 31 30 30 3b}
You can put that macro in F-Key F12, or wherever, and press the
button if loud pileup shows up. That macro is for rig 1. Rig 2
would be the same, except use cat2hex.
After you work the loud guy, reach over and twiddle the RF gain
control on the K3 a little bit to restore RF gain to its previous
setting. You have plenty of time to do this while the thank
you message is playing.
If you don't like RG100, you can choose your own preferred value.
Here is the relevant character/hex table:
R=52
G=47
;=3b
0=30
1=31
2=32
...
9=39
I tried this method in the 160 contest Saturday, and it seemed to
work pretty well.
You can also use this method with AGC OFF, to keep loud signals
out of the AF Limiter.
Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, AZ
.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a CW pileup
Dave,
A simpler way to do this would be {CAT1ASC RG100;} (no ASCII-to-hex
conversion required).
73,
Rich VE3KI
K6LL wrote:
The command RG100; sets the K3's RF gain at 100. It can be any
number from 000 to 255. In N1MM, this is implemented by the
macro
{cat1hex 52 47 31 30 30 3b}
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a CW pileup
Thanks to VE3KI, here is an easier procedure than the one I
posted a little while ago.
If you are on the receiving end of a CW pileup, with several loud
signals, it becomes difficult to separate them because the K3's
AGC compresses them together. You have to reach over and reduce
the RF gain to get everybody back on the linear part of the gain
curve.
You can very quickly reduce RF gain by hitting an F-Key on your
logging program. N1MM Logger is used as an example, but other
loggers can send commands too.
The command RG100; sets the K3's RF gain at 100. It can be any
number from 000 to 255. In N1MM, this is implemented by the
macro
{CAT1ASC RG100;}
You can put that macro in F-Key F12, or wherever, and press the
button if loud pileup shows up. That macro is for rig 1. Rig 2
would be the same, except use CAT2ASC.
After you work the loud guy, reach over and twiddle the RF gain
control on the K3 a little bit to restore RF gain to its previous
setting. You have plenty of time to do this while the thank
you message is playing.
I tried this method in the 160 contest Saturday, and it seemed to
work pretty well.
You can also use this method with AGC OFF, to keep loud signals
out of the AF Limiter.
Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, AZ
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
I hope people do not make the mistake of using in-the-ear earbuds with ham radios, even the K3. These in-the-ear phones like the etymotic or the shure have to be put pretty deep into the ear canal to seal and provide isolation. They are wonderful for hi-fi. I use a pair by Shure to listen to Brahms on airplanes. BUT, they take at least a few seconds to extract from your ears. If, as has been reported on this reflector several times, the radio mis-functions and puts out a very loud audio signal, your ears will be fried before you can react. DON'T DO IT Oliver W6ODJ On 7 Feb 2010, at 3:21 AM, Bill W4ZV wrote: High isolation headphones below means ~30 dB isolation from ambient noise. Heil does not make any in this range and most active noise reduction headphones (e.g. Bose) only have 10-15 dB. Here are some examples of what Barry meant: http://www.extremeheadphones.com/ex-29.html http://www.sennheiserusa.com/private_headphones_dj-headphones_004974 http://www.etymotic.com/ephp/er6.aspx These are all available in the $75-100 range. 73, Bill Doug Turnbull wrote: Barry, Sorry but what do you mean by 'high isolation headphones'. Would the Heil Pro-Set Plus do? 73 Doug EI2CN -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Barry N1EU Sent: 07 February 2010 01:01 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work Barry N1EU wrote: You need to maximize your rf/af dynamic range - that is what is going to turn that mush into a beautiful symphony of distinct signals of varying levels. What has worked well for me is AGC off (although AGC on works fine as well), high isolation headphones, and the gain throttling techniques (most important) described by K3NA, W4ZV, myself, and others. Just to continue from previous post - I experienced only mush in pileup reception until fully adopting this technique. High isolation headphones are critical because you want to set gain such that weak signals are lightly heard but clearly copiable. You're maximizing the receive dynamic range delivered to your ears and the high isolation means you can clearly hear fainter signals without turning up the gain and squashing the dynamic range (and too frequently engaging AF Limiter with AGC Off). 73, Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4527626.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4528787.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Barry, Sorry but what do you mean by 'high isolation headphones'. Would the Heil Pro-Set Plus do? 73 Doug EI2CN -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Barry N1EU Sent: 07 February 2010 01:01 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work Barry N1EU wrote: You need to maximize your rf/af dynamic range - that is what is going to turn that mush into a beautiful symphony of distinct signals of varying levels. What has worked well for me is AGC off (although AGC on works fine as well), high isolation headphones, and the gain throttling techniques (most important) described by K3NA, W4ZV, myself, and others. Just to continue from previous post - I experienced only mush in pileup reception until fully adopting this technique. High isolation headphones are critical because you want to set gain such that weak signals are lightly heard but clearly copiable. You're maximizing the receive dynamic range delivered to your ears and the high isolation means you can clearly hear fainter signals without turning up the gain and squashing the dynamic range (and too frequently engaging AF Limiter with AGC Off). 73, Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4527626.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
High isolation headphones below means ~30 dB isolation from ambient noise. Heil does not make any in this range and most active noise reduction headphones (e.g. Bose) only have 10-15 dB. Here are some examples of what Barry meant: http://www.extremeheadphones.com/ex-29.html http://www.sennheiserusa.com/private_headphones_dj-headphones_004974 http://www.etymotic.com/ephp/er6.aspx These are all available in the $75-100 range. 73, Bill Doug Turnbull wrote: Barry, Sorry but what do you mean by 'high isolation headphones'. Would the Heil Pro-Set Plus do? 73 Doug EI2CN -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Barry N1EU Sent: 07 February 2010 01:01 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work Barry N1EU wrote: You need to maximize your rf/af dynamic range - that is what is going to turn that mush into a beautiful symphony of distinct signals of varying levels. What has worked well for me is AGC off (although AGC on works fine as well), high isolation headphones, and the gain throttling techniques (most important) described by K3NA, W4ZV, myself, and others. Just to continue from previous post - I experienced only mush in pileup reception until fully adopting this technique. High isolation headphones are critical because you want to set gain such that weak signals are lightly heard but clearly copiable. You're maximizing the receive dynamic range delivered to your ears and the high isolation means you can clearly hear fainter signals without turning up the gain and squashing the dynamic range (and too frequently engaging AF Limiter with AGC Off). 73, Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4527626.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4528787.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Doug Turnbull wrote: Barry, Sorry but what do you mean by 'high isolation headphones'. Would the Heil Pro-Set Plus do? I'm only familiar with the Pro Set and that really doesn't have the level of isolation needed, as Bill said. I researched what drummers are using during live/recording sessions and ended up buying Sennheiser HD-280 phones, which work well. A bit more isolation could be had with in-ear phones or perhaps active isolation phones but the HD-280's are a significant step beyond the Pro Set. 73, Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4528969.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Are you guys sure this is a frequency domain problem? Has anyone measured those IMD products under the mentioned conditions and concluded from the results that they are the culprit for the mushy (somewhat vague description) audio that makes impossible to copy the different callsigns? Some W6s measured in a lab test setup a similar effect on the FT1000MP years ago and found that the problem was the AGC recovering too fast (in between symbols) making all signals sound as loud as others. The solution was to increase the time constant. The loudest signal would then set the radio gain level. Then characters in-between from weaker signals sounded weaker making them distinct (or maybe buried). I cant think why you would ever need a recovery time constant any shorter than say 150 ms, while shorter time constants are normally used -reading Clifton I think the FAST setting in the K3 is 73 ms-. At 60 WPM, a dit is 20ms long if I am not mistaken, and an intersymbols spacing (7 time units) to full gain recovery seems the shortest time that would be necessary for the receiver to recover full gain. 73 de Juan EA5RS -Mensaje original- De: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] En nombre de Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy Enviado el: sábado, 06 de febrero de 2010 11:56 Para: Guy Olinger K2AV CC: Elecraft Discussion List Asunto: Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work Hi Guy, The problem reported has the classic characteristics of in-passband IMD caused by a small dynamic range (IMDDR3) IF system, rather than being something caused by the AGC sub-system. Yes changing the AGC's loop characteristics will alter the effect, but the root cause is still non-linearity in the signal path. I suspect the second mixer. Trouble is that large IMDDR3 IF systems can consume a lot of power, and low power drain by the K3's receiver was a design goal I believe. 73, Geoff GM4ESD On Saturday, February 06, 2010 at 5:17 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: Hi Dave, Using slope 000 is likely most of your problem. With that setting all signals regardless of strength are set to the same level regardless of how loud they are coming in. If they are zero beat or close, it will mush the dickens out of the copy by making them all the same level in your ear. I set AGC SLP to 15 for contests. I also use slow AGC the entire time. If there are key clicks, I use NB with IF off and dsp to t3-7 or t2-7. It rounds off CW bauds some but does not make them uncopyable. Make sure your ATT/PRE/RFGAIN use conforms to something like: 160m ATT plus RF gain at 2 oclock 80m ATT plus RF gain at 3 oclock 40m ATT plus RF gain fully clockwise. 20m 15m off plus RF gain fully clockwise. 10m PRE plus RF gain fully clockwise. 6m ...if you are listening on your transmit antenna. At least to start. Make sure the ambient noise on the band is moderately low audio listening on a clear frequency. Using the NB with those settings, including the ATT/PRE/RFGAIN settings. Just today I was listening to an S4 Cuban underneath what were S9/5 key clicks with the NB off. Offending station up 500 Hz at 30 over 9 (really), and was using 250 filter running at WIDTH 350. Good luck in Sprint this weekend! 73, Guy. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Informacisn de NOD32, revisisn 4576 (20091105) __ Este mensaje ha sido analizado con NOD32 antivirus system http://www.nod32.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
High isolation earphones: A low cost solution is to use any in-ear type earphone that suits you plus a pair of common or garden ear defenders. The earphone lead should be as thin as possible so that the leakage around the lead as it exits the defender is as small as possible. Ear defenders I have come across make the head sweat and therefore uncomfortable after an hour or so; a cloth cover, such as aircraft headphones have is a solution, but reduces isolation slightly. David G3UNA Doug Turnbull wrote: Barry, Sorry but what do you mean by 'high isolation headphones'. Would the Heil Pro-Set Plus do? I'm only familiar with the Pro Set and that really doesn't have the level of isolation needed, as Bill said. I researched what drummers are using during live/recording sessions and ended up buying Sennheiser HD-280 phones, which work well. A bit more isolation could be had with in-ear phones or perhaps active isolation phones but the HD-280's are a significant step beyond the Pro Set. 73, Barry N1EU -- __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
The High isolation headphones are of course only going to help if you have much ambient noise in the shack. I find my Beyerdynamic DT234PRO headset very good. It's not a very high isolation headset but it's a fully closed design and my shack is reasonably quiet the DT234PRO is a headset that is produced for language lab type applications and widely used by PC gamers too, it's comfortable to wear for long periods of time and provides reasonable isolation from the surroundings. I get great audio reports from the microphone which is a back electoret condenser with a cardioid pattern. It has a presence peak (like most microphones intended for the spoken word, Heil did not 'invent' this..) and the cardioid pattern helps to reduce pick-up of any ambient noise It's completely Plug and play with the K3, plug it in the back and turn Microphone bias. I paid about 60 Euro for it on Ebay 73 Brendan EI6IZ On Sun, 2010-02-07 at 03:21 -0800, Bill W4ZV wrote: High isolation headphones below means ~30 dB isolation from ambient noise. Heil does not make any in this range and most active noise reduction headphones (e.g. Bose) only have 10-15 dB. Here are some examples of what Barry meant: http://www.extremeheadphones.com/ex-29.html http://www.sennheiserusa.com/private_headphones_dj-headphones_004974 http://www.etymotic.com/ephp/er6.aspx These are all available in the $75-100 range. 73, Bill Doug Turnbull wrote: Barry, Sorry but what do you mean by 'high isolation headphones'. Would the Heil Pro-Set Plus do? 73 Doug EI2CN -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Barry N1EU Sent: 07 February 2010 01:01 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work Barry N1EU wrote: You need to maximize your rf/af dynamic range - that is what is going to turn that mush into a beautiful symphony of distinct signals of varying levels. What has worked well for me is AGC off (although AGC on works fine as well), high isolation headphones, and the gain throttling techniques (most important) described by K3NA, W4ZV, myself, and others. Just to continue from previous post - I experienced only mush in pileup reception until fully adopting this technique. High isolation headphones are critical because you want to set gain such that weak signals are lightly heard but clearly copiable. You're maximizing the receive dynamic range delivered to your ears and the high isolation means you can clearly hear fainter signals without turning up the gain and squashing the dynamic range (and too frequently engaging AF Limiter with AGC Off). 73, Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4527626.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- 73 Brendan EI6IZ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Dick Green WC1M-2 wrote: Dave indicates that the problem occurred when the pileup consisted of four or five loud stations. This leads me to wonder if the cause is the K3 hardware AGC threshold being too low, even after the mod introduced two years ago. If gain were throttled (e.g., via ATT on, PRE off, reduced RF Gain), wouldn't AGC Threshold be effectively raised? 73, Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4529079.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
This is true, but seems to be a VERY hard point to get across. Running excess gain in RF/IF strip is at the root of some number of complaints. 73, Guy. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 8:22 AM, Barry N1EU barry.n...@gmail.com wrote: Dick Green WC1M-2 wrote: Dave indicates that the problem occurred when the pileup consisted of four or five loud stations. This leads me to wonder if the cause is the K3 hardware AGC threshold being too low, even after the mod introduced two years ago. If gain were throttled (e.g., via ATT on, PRE off, reduced RF Gain), wouldn't AGC Threshold be effectively raised? 73, Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4529079.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
If you simply raise AGC Threshold, you will have to lower AF Gain or risk overly loud audio from stronger signals. So what you would effectively be doing is translating upwards the K3's dynamic range into higher rf levels. This is NOT good practice - you want to keep the dynamic range operating at lower rf levels (thus all the talk of gain throttling). 73, Barry N1EU Guy, K2AV wrote: This is true, but seems to be a VERY hard point to get across. Running excess gain in RF/IF strip is at the root of some number of complaints. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 8:22 AM, Barry N1EU barry.n...@gmail.com wrote: If gain were throttled (e.g., via ATT on, PRE off, reduced RF Gain), wouldn't AGC Threshold be effectively raised? -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4529273.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Barry, I do not believe that is true, and the graphs at http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_agc_and_s-meter.htm#AGC_SLP_and_AGC_THR bear the real facts as well. Raising the AGC Threshold allows stronger weak signals (less than -100 dBm for THR=008) NOT to activate the AGC. Stronger signals will still activate AGC. The Hardware AGC is not changed by the threshold setting. The result is the range over which the AGC operates, and that is different than the dynamic range of the receiver. The Gain Throttling talk has mostly been with reference to the amplification of atmospheric noise rather than the detection of weak signals. While related, I do not think they are the same. The preamp and attenuator DO translate the receiver dynamic range to a higher or lower level - and the hardware AGC trigger point is translated as well. Since the RF Gain is really an IF gain, it does not alter the onset of hardware AGC. Lyle would have to comment on whether the DSP AGC is developed before or after the IF gain is applied, I do not know. 73, Don W3FPR Barry N1EU wrote: If you simply raise AGC Threshold, you will have to lower AF Gain or risk overly loud audio from stronger signals. So what you would effectively be doing is translating upwards the K3's dynamic range into higher rf levels. This is NOT good practice - you want to keep the dynamic range operating at lower rf levels (thus all the talk of gain throttling). 73, Barry N1EU __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
I don't believe so. I'm recommending using only just enough RF/IF gain to produce moderately low audio from ambient noise on a clear frequency. You can set the AGC threshold anywhere you want according to taste. Some are using NO AGC and the audio limiter to expand threshold to the audio limiter level. I'm proposing that there is a moderation point between one extreme of ambient noise shoved up into the AGC reduction range and the other of no AGC at all. And that changing RF gain during a pile up can maximize amplitude discrimination. Particularly for contests, NOT reducing the RF/IF gain per band on the lower bands just shoves the ambient noise up to a roar where the AGC winds up REDUCING wanted signals down to the level where noise has been BROUGHT UP, reducing the apparent signal to noise as perceived by the ear/brain combination to zero, a researched and documented phenomenon that has been quite appropriately reported by some here as mush. This uncomfortable state is amplified in a pile up where most of the discrete signals become noise for hearing purposes, and the already used up threshold in the AGC forces them all to the same level. Mush is a very good description. (One experiment I recall is asking someone to identify individual conversations out of a monaural recording of a school cafeteria at lunchtime -- only the very loudest can be discerned.) AGC under squished circumstances can make mush all by itself without any help from a purported (but never carefully measured and reported) IMD problem. The AGC threshold engages at a fixed voltage out of the RF/IF string for each step. Only the protective hardware AGC is operative before this point. If your setting of PRE/ATT/RFGAIN places ambient noise at what should be reserved for an S3 signal, you have subtracted that from your selected threshold range, no matter what your threshold preferences. And at worst case have already engaged AGC for the ambient noise. Threshold should allow one to have some range where any level difference in competing signals come through to allow ear/brain to tell them apart, AND still have a top where leveling kicks in to protect the ears. 73, Guy. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 9:19 AM, Barry N1EU barry.n...@gmail.com wrote: If you simply raise AGC Threshold, you will have to lower AF Gain or risk overly loud audio from stronger signals. So what you would effectively be doing is translating upwards the K3's dynamic range into higher rf levels. This is NOT good practice - you want to keep the dynamic range operating at lower rf levels (thus all the talk of gain throttling). 73, Barry N1EU Guy, K2AV wrote: This is true, but seems to be a VERY hard point to get across. Running excess gain in RF/IF strip is at the root of some number of complaints. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 8:22 AM, Barry N1EU barry.n...@gmail.com wrote: If gain were throttled (e.g., via ATT on, PRE off, reduced RF Gain), wouldn't AGC Threshold be effectively raised? __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Hello Juan, Thanks for your e-mail. I will reply in full after I return home this evening, off-list if my answer is long. The symptoms, and the cures suggested, strongly suggest that it is a well known type of IMD problem caused by the IF hardware - which includes the roofing filter. I understand the AGC recovery problem that you mention, but do you know if the in-passband IMD products of the FT1000MP were actually measured? To measure IMD products with both test signals inside a CW bandwidth passband usually requires crystal controlled generators for reasons of low phase noise, especially if the receiver's in-passband odd-order dynamic range is large. Increasing bandwidth to allow much wider spacings of the test signals usually paints a false picture, because the signal handling capability of narrow bandwidth crystal filters is usually worse than that of the wider filters. 73, Geoff GM4ESD On Sunday, February 07, 2010 at 12:57 PM, Juan EA5RS ea...@ono.com wrote: Are you guys sure this is a frequency domain problem? Has anyone measured those IMD products under the mentioned conditions and concluded from the results that they are the culprit for the mushy (somewhat vague description) audio that makes impossible to copy the different callsigns? Some W6s measured in a lab test setup a similar effect on the FT1000MP years ago and found that the problem was the AGC recovering too fast (in between symbols) making all signals sound as loud as others. The solution was to increase the time constant. The loudest signal would then set the radio gain level. Then characters in-between from weaker signals sounded weaker making them distinct (or maybe buried). I cant think why you would ever need a recovery time constant any shorter than say 150 ms, while shorter time constants are normally used -reading Clifton I think the FAST setting in the K3 is 73 ms-. At 60 WPM, a dit is 20ms long if I am not mistaken, and an intersymbols spacing (7 time units) to full gain recovery seems the shortest time that would be necessary for the receiver to recover full gain. 73 de Juan EA5RS __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
It would be interesting to know what all is used to create the signal on VIFGAIN1 on the RF board. It is at least some derivative of the signal from the RF gain control. 73, Guy. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Don Wilhelm w3...@embarqmail.com wrote: Barry, I do not believe that is true, and the graphs at http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_agc_and_s-meter.htm#AGC_SLP_and_AGC_THR bear the real facts as well. Raising the AGC Threshold allows stronger weak signals (less than -100 dBm for THR=008) NOT to activate the AGC. Stronger signals will still activate AGC. The Hardware AGC is not changed by the threshold setting. The result is the range over which the AGC operates, and that is different than the dynamic range of the receiver. The Gain Throttling talk has mostly been with reference to the amplification of atmospheric noise rather than the detection of weak signals. While related, I do not think they are the same. The preamp and attenuator DO translate the receiver dynamic range to a higher or lower level - and the hardware AGC trigger point is translated as well. Since the RF Gain is really an IF gain, it does not alter the onset of hardware AGC. Lyle would have to comment on whether the DSP AGC is developed before or after the IF gain is applied, I do not know. 73, Don W3FPR Barry N1EU wrote: If you simply raise AGC Threshold, you will have to lower AF Gain or risk overly loud audio from stronger signals. So what you would effectively be doing is translating upwards the K3's dynamic range into higher rf levels. This is NOT good practice - you want to keep the dynamic range operating at lower rf levels (thus all the talk of gain throttling). 73, Barry N1EU __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Don Wilhelm-4 wrote: I do not believe that is true, and the graphs at http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_agc_and_s-meter.htm#AGC_SLP_and_AGC_THR bear the real facts as well. Raising the AGC Threshold allows stronger weak signals (less than -100 dBm for THR=008) NOT to activate the AGC. The graphs are dependent on gain level that is set in the rx. If there's any hope of alleviating pileup mush by raising Threshold level, I believe it would be true (that stronger signals will raise audio level). When I throttle the gain, I notice that lowering Threshold lowers audio level of stronger signals. 73, Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4529522.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
When I throttle the gain, I notice that lowering Threshold lowers audio level of stronger signals. 73, Barry N1EU As it should, because you lowered the reference signal level at DSP input which the AGC bites. It also means that by throttling the gain, you have created a situation where YOUR choice of threshold actually has an effect. 73, Guy. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Barry N1EU wrote: If you simply raise AGC Threshold, you will have to lower AF Gain or risk overly loud audio from stronger signals. I just realized that the above wording might have caused confusion. What I meant by raising AGC Threshold was to change the firmware to accommodate the requests of those who posted that the existing 8 wasn't high enough. 73, Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4529874.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Barry N1EU wrote: If you simply raise AGC Threshold, you will have to lower AF Gain or risk overly loud audio from stronger signals. I just realized that the above wording might have caused confusion. What I meant by raising AGC Threshold was to change the firmware to accommodate the requests of those who posted that the existing 8 wasn't high enough. 73, Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4529882.html Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - workaround solution
A couple days ago I complained about the K3's performance in a CW pileup, with AGC mushing signals together, and the AF limiter restricting overall dynamic range with AGC turned off. Last night in the CW Sprint I took a different approach and it worked wonderfully: LINE OUT from two K3's went to LINE IN of the logging computer's on-board stereo sound card. Sound card line and mixer playback levels were set to maximum. Sensitive headphones were connected to the sound card output through a left/right/both switch. On the K3: config lin out = phones AGC off RF gain/attenuator as low as possible AF gain turned way down (between first two dots). This setup really worked great! With K3 audio gain turned down so low, the only signal to hit the AF limiter was K6NA on 80, and a quick micro-adjustment of the AF gain knob got him under control. I was surprised at how quiet the el cheapo sound card was with its gain turned all the way up. With the K3 audio gain turned all the way down, there was just a trace of occasional digital whine from the sound card, way in the background. With K3 af gain back between the first two dots, no sound card noises could be heard. The pileups were much more manageable this way. I operate so1r in the Sprint, so when I show up on a new band, I am fresh meat, and the pileups are frequently loud and deep. Stations in the pileup could be easily separated by both loudness and pitch. I will be using this setup on CW from now on, and will probably leave the wires hooked up this way for the other modes as well. I already had both K3 line outs connected to the sound card anyway for RTTY, and I use a different soundcard for ssb transmitting. All of this really shouldn't be necessary, but it works, so I'm going with it. Dave Hachadorian, K6LL Yuma, AZ . __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - workaround solution
Lets see now, getting the AGC settings correct I can understand, except they do not adjust far enough, that I have experienced. Reducing the RF gain like you are using a HQ-129X yep copy that one also, and have done that since day one of owning a K3.. Using a set of headphones that act like a vise on your head, roger that have a pair of David Clarks in the junk box, a pair of Heil prosets, Heil proset plus, and a Yamaha 500 so should be covered there.. I use external amplification by using powered external speakers and plugging the headphones into that jack. And reduce the audio and RF gains to limit distortion.. gotcha And my pet peeve, no APF, so have an external Datong that fills in to some degree for that. All is well .. I think I have it covered except the part of spending 4500 bucks for this radio that does not quite work without all the exotic applications of external accessories to function normally, and has hardware design problems due to use of low current consumption design for a radio that sits on my desktop. If it were not for the superb selectivity under crowded contest conditions can you actually find much use for a K3. In the past 20 or more years there has not been a radio that sensitivity was any problem, the better radios had decent internal noise figures, so unless you need the superb selectivity in contest conditions one would assume a better sounding X brand would be better suited at a much lower cost? One has to take all the comments with two grains of salt no doubt, as some suggest running the AGC setting just opposite of others, some run the NB on to suppress key clicks while my radio generates key clicks with the NB on, some say NR works wonders, I have never found any setting that improves weak signal reception. so who is correct? If you have moved from an ocean hopper to a HQ-129X you were amazed. If you moved from a FT-1000MP to a K3 I bet you were amazed, it all depends on what you came from as to what the K3 delivers in your eyes, Also what is a weak signal, below S5?? to me a weak signal is one that is almost not detectable to the ears, that takes listening to the noise for a slight variation in the noise to detect a signal is even there, try something that weak with your NB or NR on and off or different settings, its all from where we are coming from and our use of the K3. From many comments made and settings suggested one can determine that there are a large number of K3 owners that may not even use the radio. Other radios have problems also, and what they are determine if they effect your operation or not, your liking or not, the great equalizer in all of this besides the superb selectivity is the response to real problems by Elecraft, and the hope that it will be someday fixed, good luck with getting fixes from brand X. Would I sell my K3, not at present, but I also have kept my much modified FT-1000D on the desk and it fills in very nicely, it also has some AGC problems, but no distortion, and some mods to make the AGC much better, key klix mods are effective, reducing the IF gain and a carefully selected roofing filter makes it pretty competitive along with Inrad IF filters. and the cost is a little over 1000 bucks. And no external accessories needed. Yes it has a real second receiver, not as good as the primary but very usable again with some mods, it will also do diversity which I have done since the 90s so you guys raving about divirsity are just a tad late on finding that one. But its no K3 in the close in signal handling capability. Again would not sell my K3. If I were an outsider to the list it would be hard to decipher what is real bugs and what is just operator ignorance posted here. And the way the threads develop to completely out of topic comments, one can also tell that many do not even understand or experience the original question or problem. I think there is a genuine problem that needs to be addressed in the AGC and or DSP or probably the hardware, let that issue be addressed. It comes up again and again so its there, and it should not require external accesories of certain brands or types to operate the K3 properly. these things are as important to the survival of the K3 in the future as is some of the bells and whistles that Sunday users ask for. Merv KH7C A couple days ago I complained about the K3's performance in a CW pileup, with AGC mushing signals together, and the AF limiter restricting overall dynamic range with AGC turned off. Last night in the CW Sprint I took a different approach and it worked wonderfully: LINE OUT from two K3's went to LINE IN of the logging computer's on-board stereo sound card. Sound card line and mixer playback levels were set to maximum. Sensitive headphones were connected to the sound card output through a left/right/both switch. On the K3: config lin out = phones AGC off RF gain/attenuator as low as possible AF gain turned way
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - workaround solution
That is how I have setup my new K3. Line out goes to the PC's realtek HD Audio soundcard that feeds a Bose Companion 3 speaker system. I plugged in a 1/4 to 1/8 stereo adapter into the front phones jack to mute the internal speaker. If I want to use the internal speaker, I can easily turn off the Bose, and pull out the adapter. The only downside (minor), is you don't have a fixed level into the soundcard for digital, but it is easy to adjust. With the AGC off, and tweaking the RF gain, the receiver is super quiet, and the CW tone is incredible. The Bose system has plenty of gain, so no clipping of the audio. I always thought the Omni-V was the best CW radio ever made, but this K3 has taken the throne. On the other side, I still prefer the Mark-V for phone, so I will be keeping it. But for CW, the K3 blows it out of the water. On the K3: config lin out = phones AGC off RF gain/attenuator as low as possible AF gain turned way down (between first two dots). -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-workaround-solution-tp4530279p4531014.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Doug Turnbull wrote: Barry, Sorry but what do you mean by 'high isolation headphones'. Would the Heil Pro-Set Plus do? 73 Doug EI2CN This is what I use to isolate my self from XYL, kid, grandkid, and great grandkid QRM. http://www.extremeheadphones.com/ Works great. Paul N4LCD __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Paul, you aren't old enough! On Feb 7, 2010, at 1:07 PM, p...@n4lcd.com wrote: This is what I use to isolate my self from XYL, kid, grandkid, and great grandkid QRM. - Jack Brindle, W6FB - __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
K2AV posted: Using slope 000 is likely most of your problem. With that setting all signals regardless of strength are set to the same level regardless of how loud they are coming in. Actually AGC SLP 015 flattens the audio output. AGC SLP 000 is the minimum AGC action but it still reduces the audio output compared to AGC OFF. If they are zero beat or close, it will mush the dickens out of the copy by making them all the same level in your ear. I set AGC SLP to 15 for contests. This makes a wide range of RF signal levels produce the same audio output level, probably not ideal for contesting. Make sure your ATT/PRE/RFGAIN use conforms to something like: 160m ATT plus RF gain at 2 oclock 80m ATT plus RF gain at 3 oclock 40m ATT plus RF gain fully clockwise. 20m 15m off plus RF gain fully clockwise. 10m PRE plus RF gain fully clockwise. 6m These ATT and PRE settings are generally OK, but band conditions and antenna/terrain gain can alter them. The RF Gain is seldom optimum at full scale. Ed - W0YK --- Ed Muns Muns Vineyard - www.munsvineyard.com FaceBook - www.facebook.com/munsvineyard __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
The Smiths asserted: Having the Slope set to 000 is like not having the AGC on at all. Not really. AGC SLP 000 still produces significant AGC action. See K8ZOA's paper. There is considerable white space between the Slope=0 curve and the AGC = OFF line. That's why Dave proposed enhancing the AGC SLP parameter with negative numbers. Ed - W0YK --- Ed Muns Muns Vineyard - www.munsvineyard.com FaceBook - www.facebook.com/munsvineyard __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
During the CQ 160 the K3 performed very well. Also in the (small) pile-ups. Only mushy experience I had the following situation: - Being on the DX cluster - Everybody clicks to you through some bandmap - Therefore everybody calls on exact the same freq No wonder it sounds mushy. (exception: K2's that are mostly more than a few Hz off can be heard :-) ) 73 Arie PA3A __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Hi Guy, The problem reported has the classic characteristics of in-passband IMD caused by a small dynamic range (IMDDR3) IF system, rather than being something caused by the AGC sub-system. Yes changing the AGC's loop characteristics will alter the effect, but the root cause is still non-linearity in the signal path. I suspect the second mixer. Trouble is that large IMDDR3 IF systems can consume a lot of power, and low power drain by the K3's receiver was a design goal I believe. 73, Geoff GM4ESD On Saturday, February 06, 2010 at 5:17 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: Hi Dave, Using slope 000 is likely most of your problem. With that setting all signals regardless of strength are set to the same level regardless of how loud they are coming in. If they are zero beat or close, it will mush the dickens out of the copy by making them all the same level in your ear. I set AGC SLP to 15 for contests. I also use slow AGC the entire time. If there are key clicks, I use NB with IF off and dsp to t3-7 or t2-7. It rounds off CW bauds some but does not make them uncopyable. Make sure your ATT/PRE/RFGAIN use conforms to something like: 160m ATT plus RF gain at 2 oclock 80m ATT plus RF gain at 3 oclock 40m ATT plus RF gain fully clockwise. 20m 15m off plus RF gain fully clockwise. 10m PRE plus RF gain fully clockwise. 6m ...if you are listening on your transmit antenna. At least to start. Make sure the ambient noise on the band is moderately low audio listening on a clear frequency. Using the NB with those settings, including the ATT/PRE/RFGAIN settings. Just today I was listening to an S4 Cuban underneath what were S9/5 key clicks with the NB off. Offending station up 500 Hz at 30 over 9 (really), and was using 250 filter running at WIDTH 350. Good luck in Sprint this weekend! 73, Guy. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Dave indicates that the problem occurred when the pileup consisted of four or five loud stations. This leads me to wonder if the cause is the K3 hardware AGC threshold being too low, even after the mod introduced two years ago. That mod was supposed to raise the threshold from S9+5 dB to S9+25-30 dB. I got into this issue after repeatedly being botherd by thumping from loud CW stations above my passband during big contests. When I first noticed it, I was using the 5-pole 500 Hz filters and the DSP set to about 300 Hz. I'd hear the thumping from stations more than 150 Hz or even 250 Hz above my frequency. Testing revealed that I could hear thumping from loud CW signals as far as 700Hz away. The testing also showed that the filters were effective against a loud continuous carrier, but CW signals were slipping under the skirts. This suggested that the problem is caused by the hardware AGC being tripped by the loud signals. I switched to 8-pole 400 Hz filters, and that improved the situation considerably. My testing probably wasn't lab-quality, but it showed that the hardware AGC really kicks in much lower than S9+25-30dB. I think it's more like S9, or just above. Perhaps if two or more signals in Dave's pileup were that lour or louder, the hardware AGC kicked in and mushed them together? 73, Dick WC1M -Original Message- From: Dave Hachadorian [mailto:k...@arrl.net] Sent: Friday, February 05, 2010 10:45 PM To: Elecraft Reflector Subject: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work Tonight I used a pair of K3's in the Sprint practice. Several times I had a pileup of four or five loud stations calling me. With AGC turned on, they were all mushed together, and I couldn't copy any of them. AGC settings: dcy soft hld 0.2 pls nor slp 000 thr 008 f 200 s 020 I tried both fast and slow agc. No joy. So I turned the AGC OFF. Now this introduces another problem - the very low threshold of the AF Limiter. The AF limiter, even at its highest setting of 030 introduces gross distortion on loud signals. This is even worse than the mushy AGC. So I transfer the headphones to the speaker output, so I can reduce the AF gain setting in an attempt to get away from the raucous AF limiter. This works for a while, until finally one loud signal blows out the K3's audio amplifier. This is the second time that has happened to me. I guess I'm a slow learner on that issue. Something really needs to be done here. My suggestions would to raise the agc threshold further, and increase the slope of the agc line (that would mean a slp setting of less than zero). The AF limiter threshold also needs to be raised, and the AF speaker output needs better protection. Dave Hachadorian, K6LL Yuma, AZ . __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Yes. For non-portable use how about a K3 Pro or K3 MK V++ that clips a few circuit traces and has a daughter board that uses two or three filter slots to house a stout IF amp, an H-mode second mixer and a PIN attenuator before the DSP? The one remaining filter would only have to be good enough to get rid of the image. Just thinking out loud. --- On Sat, 2/6/10, Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy gm4...@btinternet.com wrote: Hi Guy, The problem reported has the classic characteristics of in-passband IMD caused by a small dynamic range (IMDDR3) IF system, rather than being something caused by the AGC sub-system. Yes changing the AGC's loop characteristics will alter the effect, but the root cause is still non-linearity in the signal path. I suspect the second mixer. Trouble is that large IMDDR3 IF systems can consume a lot of power, and low power drain by the K3's receiver was a design goal I believe. 73, Geoff GM4ESD __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Dave Hachadorian wrote: Tonight I used a pair of K3's in the Sprint practice. Several times I had a pileup of four or five loud stations calling me. With AGC turned on, they were all mushed together, and I couldn't copy any of them. So I turned the AGC OFF. Now this introduces another problem - the very low threshold of the AF Limiter. The AF limiter, even at its highest setting of 030 introduces gross distortion on loud signals. This is even worse than the mushy AGC. You need to maximize your rf/af dynamic range - that is what is going to turn that mush into a beautiful symphony of distinct signals of varying levels. What has worked well for me is AGC off (although AGC on works fine as well), high isolation headphones, and the gain throttling techniques (most important) described by K3NA, W4ZV, myself, and others. 73, Barry N1EU (http://n1eu.com) -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4527366.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Barry N1EU wrote: You need to maximize your rf/af dynamic range - that is what is going to turn that mush into a beautiful symphony of distinct signals of varying levels. What has worked well for me is AGC off (although AGC on works fine as well), high isolation headphones, and the gain throttling techniques (most important) described by K3NA, W4ZV, myself, and others. Just to continue from previous post - I experienced only mush in pileup reception until fully adopting this technique. High isolation headphones are critical because you want to set gain such that weak signals are lightly heard but clearly copiable. You're maximizing the receive dynamic range delivered to your ears and the high isolation means you can clearly hear fainter signals without turning up the gain and squashing the dynamic range (and too frequently engaging AF Limiter with AGC Off). 73, Barry N1EU -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/K3-in-a-cw-pileup-needs-work-tp4523884p4527626.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Tonight I used a pair of K3's in the Sprint practice. Several times I had a pileup of four or five loud stations calling me. With AGC turned on, they were all mushed together, and I couldn't copy any of them. AGC settings: dcy soft hld 0.2 pls nor slp 000 thr 008 f 200 s 020 I tried both fast and slow agc. No joy. So I turned the AGC OFF. Now this introduces another problem - the very low threshold of the AF Limiter. The AF limiter, even at its highest setting of 030 introduces gross distortion on loud signals. This is even worse than the mushy AGC. So I transfer the headphones to the speaker output, so I can reduce the AF gain setting in an attempt to get away from the raucous AF limiter. This works for a while, until finally one loud signal blows out the K3's audio amplifier. This is the second time that has happened to me. I guess I'm a slow learner on that issue. Something really needs to be done here. My suggestions would to raise the agc threshold further, and increase the slope of the agc line (that would mean a slp setting of less than zero). The AF limiter threshold also needs to be raised, and the AF speaker output needs better protection. Dave Hachadorian, K6LL Yuma, AZ . __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Dave, I also lost an audio output chip last year when an unexpectedly LOUD SSB signal appeared during a roundtable QSO.appeared. Heard a part of a syllable, a pop and then silence. Was sent a replacement chip immediately. Your phones ... and their plug ... -are- stereo, aren't they? 73! Ken - K0PP k...@elecraftcovers.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Hi Dave, Using slope 000 is likely most of your problem. With that setting all signals regardless of strength are set to the same level regardless of how loud they are coming in. If they are zero beat or close, it will mush the dickens out of the copy by making them all the same level in your ear. I set AGC SLP to 15 for contests. I also use slow AGC the entire time. If there are key clicks, I use NB with IF off and dsp to t3-7 or t2-7. It rounds off CW bauds some but does not make them uncopyable. Make sure your ATT/PRE/RFGAIN use conforms to something like: 160m ATT plus RF gain at 2 oclock 80m ATT plus RF gain at 3 oclock 40m ATT plus RF gain fully clockwise. 20m 15m off plus RF gain fully clockwise. 10m PRE plus RF gain fully clockwise. 6m ...if you are listening on your transmit antenna. At least to start. Make sure the ambient noise on the band is moderately low audio listening on a clear frequency. Using the NB with those settings, including the ATT/PRE/RFGAIN settings. Just today I was listening to an S4 Cuban underneath what were S9/5 key clicks with the NB off. Offending station up 500 Hz at 30 over 9 (really), and was using 250 filter running at WIDTH 350. Good luck in Sprint this weekend! 73, Guy. On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 10:45 PM, Dave Hachadorian k...@arrl.net wrote: Tonight I used a pair of K3's in the Sprint practice. Several times I had a pileup of four or five loud stations calling me. With AGC turned on, they were all mushed together, and I couldn't copy any of them. AGC settings: dcy soft hld 0.2 pls nor slp 000 thr 008 f 200 s 020 I tried both fast and slow agc. No joy. So I turned the AGC OFF. Now this introduces another problem - the very low threshold of the AF Limiter. The AF limiter, even at its highest setting of 030 introduces gross distortion on loud signals. This is even worse than the mushy AGC. So I transfer the headphones to the speaker output, so I can reduce the AF gain setting in an attempt to get away from the raucous AF limiter. This works for a while, until finally one loud signal blows out the K3's audio amplifier. This is the second time that has happened to me. I guess I'm a slow learner on that issue. Something really needs to be done here. My suggestions would to raise the agc threshold further, and increase the slope of the agc line (that would mean a slp setting of less than zero). The AF limiter threshold also needs to be raised, and the AF speaker output needs better protection. Dave Hachadorian, K6LL Yuma, AZ . __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Wrong ... you have that totally backwards. AGC SLP = 000 gives the LEAST amount of AGC action you can get in the K3. AGC SLP = 015 is the setting that makes all signals above the threshold sound the same, and potentially creates mushy distortion for multiple signals depending on what setting you use for AGC THR. Read the manual, or check out http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_agc_and_s-meter.htm if you want to see it graphically. K6LL's AGC settings are exactly the same as those I use for contesting. 73, Dave AB7E --Original Mail-- From: Guy Olinger K2AV olin...@bellsouth.net To: Dave Hachadorian k...@arrl.net, Elecraft Reflector elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 00:17:32 -0500 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work Hi Dave, Using slope 000 is likely most of your problem. With that setting all signals regardless of strength are set to the same level regardless of how loud they are coming in. If they are zero beat or close, it will mush the dickens out of the copy by making them all the same level in your ear. I set AGC SLP to 15 for contests. I also use slow AGC the entire time. If there are key clicks, I use NB with IF off and dsp to t3-7 or t2-7. It rounds off CW bauds some but does not make them uncopyable. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Having the Slope set to 000 is like not having the AGC on at all. If you're going to have a theshold, then why bother to keep the AGC from actually doing anything? At least put that Slope to 04 or something where it actually makes a difference. If your concern is having loud signals be louder than the low signals underneath it, and you want to compress the lower signals to sound as loud as the loud ones (or Vs Versa, have the loud ones squashed to the same level as the low signals), you have to actually set the slope compression to do something, not turn it off by setting it to 00. I agree with Guy completely. Also, there's a setting in the menu that will allow you to have a soft Agc which was designed JUST for this Contest/Pile up situation your describing. If you don't know what or where it is, please let us know and I will dig it up for you. As for the AGC off level limiter, and creating distortion... Yea, I've noticed that with the loud ones too. I belive that Wayne did something with that setting in the last 2 beta software releases... I don't know if you have access to it yet. M From: xda...@cis-broadband.com To: olin...@bellsouth.net; k...@arrl.net; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 22:48:19 -0700 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work Wrong ... you have that totally backwards. AGC SLP = 000 gives the LEAST amount of AGC action you can get in the K3. AGC SLP = 015 is the setting that makes all signals above the threshold sound the same, and potentially creates mushy distortion for multiple signals depending on what setting you use for AGC THR. Read the manual, or check out http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_agc_and_s-meter.htm if you want to see it graphically. K6LL's AGC settings are exactly the same as those I use for contesting. 73, Dave AB7E --Original Mail-- From: Guy Olinger K2AV olin...@bellsouth.net To: Dave Hachadorian k...@arrl.net, Elecraft Reflector elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 00:17:32 -0500 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work Hi Dave, Using slope 000 is likely most of your problem. With that setting all signals regardless of strength are set to the same level regardless of how loud they are coming in. If they are zero beat or close, it will mush the dickens out of the copy by making them all the same level in your ear. I set AGC SLP to 15 for contests. I also use slow AGC the entire time. If there are key clicks, I use NB with IF off and dsp to t3-7 or t2-7. It rounds off CW bauds some but does not make them uncopyable. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html _ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469229/direct/01/ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Config: AGC DCY: Soft The Smiths wrote: Having the Slope set to 000 is like not having the AGC on at all. If you're going to have a theshold, then why bother to keep the AGC from actually doing anything? At least put that Slope to 04 or something where it actually makes a difference. If your concern is having loud signals be louder than the low signals underneath it, and you want to compress the lower signals to sound as loud as the loud ones (or Vs Versa, have the loud ones squashed to the same level as the low signals), you have to actually set the slope compression to do something, not turn it off by setting it to 00. I agree with Guy completely. Also, there's a setting in the menu that will allow you to have a soft Agc which was designed JUST for this Contest/Pile up situation your describing. If you don't know what or where it is, please let us know and I will dig it up for you. As for the AGC off level limiter, and creating distortion... Yea, I've noticed that with the loud ones too. I belive that Wayne did something with that setting in the last 2 beta software releases... I don't know if you have access to it yet. M From: xda...@cis-broadband.com To: olin...@bellsouth.net; k...@arrl.net; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 22:48:19 -0700 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work Wrong ... you have that totally backwards. AGC SLP = 000 gives the LEAST amount of AGC action you can get in the K3. AGC SLP = 015 is the setting that makes all signals above the threshold sound the same, and potentially creates mushy distortion for multiple signals depending on what setting you use for AGC THR. Read the manual, or check out http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_agc_and_s-meter.htm if you want to see it graphically. K6LL's AGC settings are exactly the same as those I use for contesting. 73, Dave AB7E --Original Mail-- From: Guy Olinger K2AV olin...@bellsouth.net To: Dave Hachadorian k...@arrl.net, Elecraft Reflector elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 00:17:32 -0500 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work Hi Dave, Using slope 000 is likely most of your problem. With that setting all signals regardless of strength are set to the same level regardless of how loud they are coming in. If they are zero beat or close, it will mush the dickens out of the copy by making them all the same level in your ear. I set AGC SLP to 15 for contests. I also use slow AGC the entire time. If there are key clicks, I use NB with IF off and dsp to t3-7 or t2-7. It rounds off CW bauds some but does not make them uncopyable. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html _ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469229/direct/01/ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work
Not true. Read the Clifton labs link that I posted and you'll see that on the K3 AGC SLP = 000 actually gives a slope around 2 ... i.e., it takes 4 times the signal strength to sound twice as loud. The concern is not about having loud signals sound louder than weaker ones ... the concern is having the least nonlinearity in the signal chain to minimize in-band intermod products. Loud signals override weak signals so intermod isn't an issue there. The problem occurs when multiple signals are approximately the same strength and they lie at or near a nonlinear portion of the gain curve. Take a look at the severe knee in the Clifton Labs AGC plots and you'll see what I mean. The best way to avoid distortion in the presence of multiple signals for the majority of conditions (especially when receiving multiple weak ones) is to set the AGC threshold to maximum (008) and the slope to minimum (000), but that still leaves the opportunity for multiple STRONG signals to find the knee in the curve and generate distortion. It also, of course, leaves you less protected against really strong signals. And please don't try to sound so condescending ... I know exactly what the AGC SOFT setting is and I use it exclusively. Lastly, you should pay attention to whom is posting what. The original poster who complained about the AF LIM situation is Dave, K6LL. 73, Dave AB7E --Original Mail-- From: The Smiths notforc...@hotmail.com To: Elecraft Reflector elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 06:04:58 + Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work Having the Slope set to 000 is like not having the AGC on at all. If you're going to have a theshold, then why bother to keep the AGC from actually doing anything? At least put that Slope to 04 or something where it actually makes a difference. If your concern is having loud signals be louder than the low signals underneath it, and you want to compress the lower signals to sound as loud as the loud ones (or Vs Versa, have the loud ones squashed to the same level as the low signals), you have to actually set the slope compression to do something, not turn it off by setting it to 00. I agree with Guy completely. Also, there's a setting in the menu that will allow you to have a soft Agc which was designed JUST for this Contest/Pile up situation your describing. If you don't know what or where it is, please let us know and I will dig it up for you. As for the AGC off level limiter, and creating distortion... Yea, I've noticed that with the loud ones too. I belive that Wayne did something with that setting in the last 2 beta software releases... I don't know if you have access to it yet. M From: xda...@cis-broadband.com To: olin...@bellsouth.net; k...@arrl.net; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 22:48:19 -0700 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work Wrong ... you have that totally backwards. AGC SLP = 000 gives the LEAST amount of AGC action you can get in the K3. AGC SLP = 015 is the setting that makes all signals above the threshold sound the same, and potentially creates mushy distortion for multiple signals depending on what setting you use for AGC THR. Read the manual, or check out http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/elecraft_k3_agc_and_s-meter.htm if you want to see it graphically. K6LL's AGC settings are exactly the same as those I use for contesting. 73, Dave AB7E --Original Mail-- From: Guy Olinger K2AV olin...@bellsouth.net To: Dave Hachadorian k...@arrl.net, Elecraft Reflector elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Sat, 6 Feb 2010 00:17:32 -0500 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 in a cw pileup - needs work Hi Dave, Using slope 000 is likely most of your problem. With that setting all signals regardless of strength are set to the same level regardless of how loud they are coming in. If they are zero beat or close, it will mush the dickens out of the copy by making them all the same level in your ear. I set AGC SLP to 15 for contests. I also use slow AGC the entire time. If there are key clicks, I use NB with IF off and dsp to t3-7 or t2-7. It rounds off CW bauds some but does not make them uncopyable. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html _ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469229/direct/01/ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net
