Re: [Elecraft] Key Clicks

[John Simmons]

Oh, please, please bring back the CW note of the Drake 4-line!

-de John NI0K

Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote on 6/6/2020 10:59 PM:
There are actually 2 time elements involved.  First is the time 
between key closure and the amp key command.  This is approximately 
3ms of processing time inside the radio.  The second is amp key 
command to RF generation out of the radio.  This is the 5ms between 
amp key command and RF generation.    These are summed together to get 
the total time from Key closure to  RF generation of about 8ms.


One other company to which I'm very familiar,  specs their radio as 15 
ms RF delay.  What is not disclosed is a breakdown of this 15ms,  that 
7 ms of the total time occurs from key closure to amp key command, 
thus leaving 8ms from amp key command to RF generation.  This requires 
the amp to switch in 7ms or less.   A mechanical relay is really being 
pushed to accomplish this fact. This 15ms delay is not user 
adjustable. And the CW rise and fall time is 5ms.  A bit fast for a 
really clean signal.    Another model of the brand offers and 
adjustable CW rise and fall time adjustable between 3 - 10 ms.  The 
longer time makes for a much cleaner CW signal.  Again the delay from 
key closure to RF generation is in the order of 15ms.


Older amp designs, typically those that do not clearly provide QSK 
identification or mode, are typically not suitable for QSK operation. 
Thus switching one of these amps at the faster speeds will most likely 
cause hot switching, resulting in key clicks and eventually relay 
failure.


I've found the K3S and KPA500 to produce some of the cleanest CW 
signals on the bands.   Timing is the secret and the design team at 
Elecraft have focused heavily on this aspect of these products.


73

Bob, K4TAX


On 6/6/2020 10:19 PM, Victor Rosenthal 4X6GP wrote:
In fact, it's closer to 5-6 ms when set to 8. And of course it 
depends on the amp. A general rule to "set it to 9" is silly. It just 
has to give the relays time to settle down.



73,
Victor, 4X6GP
Rehovot, Israel
Formerly K2VCO
CWops no. 5
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
On 07-Jun-2020 04:00, David Gilbert wrote:

QSK has everything to do with it.  If you hot switch the amp you create
sharp waveforms every element even if the K3 keying is soft. The
discussion on the contesting forum included comments that the default
setting for TXDELAY on the K3 (apparently 008) isn't long enough and 
that

it should be set to 009.  Not sure which amps were being considered.

73,
Dave   AB7E



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Re: [Elecraft] Key Clicks

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

There are actually 2 time elements involved.  First is the time between 
key closure and the amp key command.  This is approximately 3ms of 
processing time inside the radio.  The second is amp key command to RF 
generation out of the radio.  This is the 5ms between amp key command 
and RF generation.    These are summed together to get the total time 
from Key closure to  RF generation of about 8ms.


One other company to which I'm very familiar,  specs their radio as 15 
ms RF delay.  What is not disclosed is a breakdown of this 15ms,  that 7 
ms of the total time occurs from key closure to amp key command, thus 
leaving 8ms from amp key command to RF generation.  This requires the 
amp to switch in 7ms or less.   A mechanical relay is really being 
pushed to accomplish this fact. This 15ms delay is not user adjustable.  
And the CW rise and fall time is 5ms.  A bit fast for a really clean 
signal.    Another model of the brand offers and adjustable CW rise and 
fall time adjustable between 3 - 10 ms.  The longer time makes for a 
much cleaner CW signal.  Again the delay from key closure to RF 
generation is in the order of 15ms.


Older amp designs, typically those that do not clearly provide QSK 
identification or mode, are typically not suitable for QSK operation.   
Thus switching one of these amps at the faster speeds will most likely 
cause hot switching, resulting in key clicks and eventually relay failure.


I've found the K3S and KPA500 to produce some of the cleanest CW signals 
on the bands.   Timing is the secret and the design team at Elecraft 
have focused heavily on this aspect of these products.


73

Bob, K4TAX


On 6/6/2020 10:19 PM, Victor Rosenthal 4X6GP wrote:
In fact, it's closer to 5-6 ms when set to 8. And of course it depends 
on the amp. A general rule to "set it to 9" is silly. It just has to 
give the relays time to settle down.



73,
Victor, 4X6GP
Rehovot, Israel
Formerly K2VCO
CWops no. 5
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
On 07-Jun-2020 04:00, David Gilbert wrote:

QSK has everything to do with it.  If you hot switch the amp you create
sharp waveforms every element even if the K3 keying is soft. The
discussion on the contesting forum included comments that the default
setting for TXDELAY on the K3 (apparently 008) isn't long enough and 
that

it should be set to 009.  Not sure which amps were being considered.

73,
Dave   AB7E



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Re: [Elecraft] Key Clicks

[Jack Brindle via Elecraft]

I read that also. It was not a KPA500 or KPA1500. The Elecraft amplifiers are 
designed with solid-state switching and are capable of switching very rapidly, 
in much less time than 8 mSec. In fact the amps will switch quickly enough to 
allow true QSK in the K3/K3S. Fred’s analysis is correct in this regards.

There is a trade off with slower switching amplifiers - requiring higher values 
for TxDelay means eliminating QSK times and this the ability to copy signals 
between key down times.

This is documented quite nicely in the K3 manual. See the entry for TxDelay on 
page 66 of the K3S Owner’s manual, Rev A1.

It is notable in the ongoing discussion that the K3 and K3S are called out as 
examples of transceivers that do things right. In fact those of us with both 
Elecraft transceivers and Elecraft amplifiers provide examples of some of the 
cleanest signals on the air.

73!
Jack, W6FB


> On Jun 6, 2020, at 6:00 PM, David Gilbert  wrote:
> 
> QSK has everything to do with it.  If you hot switch the amp you create
> sharp waveforms every element even if the K3 keying is soft.  The
> discussion on the contesting forum included comments that the default
> setting for TXDELAY on the K3 (apparently 008) isn't long enough and that
> it should be set to 009.  Not sure which amps were being considered.
> 
> 73,
> Dave   AB7E
> 
> On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 5:40 PM John Simmons 
> wrote:
> 
>> I have operated a number of the 'big' CW contests. I have heard some
>> really, really wide sigs with horrible key clicks. Yes they were
>> strong but 10 KHz wide? Rob Sherwood and others have written about
>> this. Some of the really high-end rigs (non-Elecraft) allow user
>> adjustment of CW rise time to such short values that key clicks are
>> guaranteed. Yech!
>> 
>> -de John NI0K
>> 
>> Fred Jensen wrote on 6/6/2020 7:05 PM:
>>> True. TXDelay is a sequencing parameter to assure that downstream
>>> switching has completed before RF appears. The keying waveform
>>> [particularly the edges and "corners"] affect the sidebands and thus
>>> bandwidth of the CW signal.  I don't believe QSK has anything to do
>>> with it, at least for a K3.
>>> 
>>> 73,
>>> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
>>> Sparks NV DM09dn
>>> Washoe County
>>> 
>>> On 6/6/2020 4:55 PM, N4ZR wrote:
 There's a big discussion going on in contesting circles online about
 the problem of key clicks.  There's been a lot of discussion about
 settings called things like TXDelay, but so far as I can tell (and
 the manual confirms), the K3's TX delay is intended to protect
 amplifier relays at the start of a transmission.  So long as you
 don't run QSK, I would think that setting would have no influence on
 key clicks after the rise of the first CW element.  True?
>>> 
>>> __
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>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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Re: [Elecraft] Key Clicks

[Victor Rosenthal 4X6GP]

In fact, it's closer to 5-6 ms when set to 8. And of course it depends 
on the amp. A general rule to "set it to 9" is silly. It just has to 
give the relays time to settle down.



73,
Victor, 4X6GP
Rehovot, Israel
Formerly K2VCO
CWops no. 5
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
On 07-Jun-2020 04:00, David Gilbert wrote:

QSK has everything to do with it.  If you hot switch the amp you create
sharp waveforms every element even if the K3 keying is soft.  The
discussion on the contesting forum included comments that the default
setting for TXDELAY on the K3 (apparently 008) isn't long enough and that
it should be set to 009.  Not sure which amps were being considered.

73,
Dave   AB7E

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 5:40 PM John Simmons 
wrote:


I have operated a number of the 'big' CW contests. I have heard some
really, really wide sigs with horrible key clicks. Yes they were
strong but 10 KHz wide? Rob Sherwood and others have written about
this. Some of the really high-end rigs (non-Elecraft) allow user
adjustment of CW rise time to such short values that key clicks are
guaranteed. Yech!

-de John NI0K

Fred Jensen wrote on 6/6/2020 7:05 PM:

True. TXDelay is a sequencing parameter to assure that downstream
switching has completed before RF appears. The keying waveform
[particularly the edges and "corners"] affect the sidebands and thus
bandwidth of the CW signal.  I don't believe QSK has anything to do
with it, at least for a K3.

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 6/6/2020 4:55 PM, N4ZR wrote:

There's a big discussion going on in contesting circles online about
the problem of key clicks.  There's been a lot of discussion about
settings called things like TXDelay, but so far as I can tell (and
the manual confirms), the K3's TX delay is intended to protect
amplifier relays at the start of a transmission.  So long as you
don't run QSK, I would think that setting would have no influence on
key clicks after the rise of the first CW element.  True?


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Re: [Elecraft] Key Clicks

[Victor Rosenthal 4X6GP]

Correct.
But if you are hot-switching at all, even only on the first element, you 
risk damage to the amplifier and the transceiver.


73,
Victor, 4X6GP
Rehovot, Israel
Formerly K2VCO
CWops no. 5
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
On 07-Jun-2020 02:55, N4ZR wrote:
There's a big discussion going on in contesting circles online about the 
problem of key clicks.  There's been a lot of discussion about settings 
called things like TXDelay, but so far as I can tell (and the manual 
confirms), the K3's TX delay is intended to protect amplifier relays at 
the start of a transmission.  So long as you don't run QSK, I would 
think that setting would have no influence on key clicks after the rise 
of the first CW element.  True?



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Re: [Elecraft] Key Clicks

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

With my P3 I observe many CW signals that are wide.  And key clicks are 
easily recognized.  Likewise, transmit phase noise is also recognized as 
some signals are wide and some are very narrow.    Casual observations  
seem to center on one particular brand of radio that is most prone to 
have key clicks.   I've owned 2 of them and both were plagued with key 
clicks.   On one CW net which I participate, one of the ops can send a 
single dit or dah and I'll know exactly who it is.   His signal is that 
identifiable.


Yes, amps with slow relays are very prone to generate key clicks.   Even 
amps with vacuum relays with an accelerator circuit are often a bit 
slow.  One of the current, on the market, new amps selling today has a 
switching time which I measured of about 15 ms. There is no way this amp 
should be used in a QSK station operation or even a Semi-QSK unless the 
delay time is extended out to 17 ms to 18 ms.    That is one reason I 
sold it and purchased a KPA500.


Some amps contain a circuit which prevents hot switching. However, if 
the delay is not sufficient, the amp will not switch into transmit.  
This amp also uses two lines between the amp and radio.  One is the amp 
command, and the other is the radio command which occurs after the amp 
has switched.   I've owned one of those and the matching radio and it is 
a super combination for QSK operation.


I am also aware that several of the new ARRL Volunteer Monitor stations 
have and are reporting those stations with wide signals and stations 
with key clicks.


73

Bob, K4TAX


On 6/6/2020 8:00 PM, David Gilbert wrote:

QSK has everything to do with it.  If you hot switch the amp you create
sharp waveforms every element even if the K3 keying is soft.  The
discussion on the contesting forum included comments that the default
setting for TXDELAY on the K3 (apparently 008) isn't long enough and that
it should be set to 009.  Not sure which amps were being considered.

73,
Dave   AB7E

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 5:40 PM John Simmons 
wrote:


I have operated a number of the 'big' CW contests. I have heard some
really, really wide sigs with horrible key clicks. Yes they were
strong but 10 KHz wide? Rob Sherwood and others have written about
this. Some of the really high-end rigs (non-Elecraft) allow user
adjustment of CW rise time to such short values that key clicks are
guaranteed. Yech!

-de John NI0K

Fred Jensen wrote on 6/6/2020 7:05 PM:

True. TXDelay is a sequencing parameter to assure that downstream
switching has completed before RF appears. The keying waveform
[particularly the edges and "corners"] affect the sidebands and thus
bandwidth of the CW signal.  I don't believe QSK has anything to do
with it, at least for a K3.

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 6/6/2020 4:55 PM, N4ZR wrote:

There's a big discussion going on in contesting circles online about
the problem of key clicks.  There's been a lot of discussion about
settings called things like TXDelay, but so far as I can tell (and
the manual confirms), the K3's TX delay is intended to protect
amplifier relays at the start of a transmission.  So long as you
don't run QSK, I would think that setting would have no influence on
key clicks after the rise of the first CW element.  True?

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Re: [Elecraft] Key Clicks

[Fred Jensen]

Not really Dave, until you're sending at sufficient speed to tax the 
sequencing of the radio.  QSK is "inherently" a receive function -- mute 
the receiver while generating RF, unmute when it's not.  TXDelay waits 
 ms before starting RF to let amplifier switching settle, at 
which point you're either going to generate key clicks or not depending 
on the timing and waveshape of the RF envelope.


If you hot switch anything, you're going to create lots of noise, much 
of which will be indistinguishable from simple key clicks. But, stop the 
hot switching and you do NOT automatically stop the key clicks, 
particularly if the radio allows you to adjust the rise/fall times of 
the RF envelope [a very stupid idea] and you've set it very short.


In today's radios, other things may happen such as shifting frequencies 
if you're split, and that just adds to the complexity.  But basically, 
the fact that QSK means you can hear between code elements does not 
impact your CW waveform.  Your CW bandwidth is a result of the timing 
and waveform of the beginning and end of your RF envelope for each 
element which Joseph Fourier figured out way before any of us were born 
or radio and CW had been invented.


73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 6/6/2020 6:00 PM, David Gilbert wrote:

QSK has everything to do with it.  If you hot switch the amp you create
sharp waveforms every element even if the K3 keying is soft.  The
discussion on the contesting forum included comments that the default
setting for TXDELAY on the K3 (apparently 008) isn't long enough and that
it should be set to 009.  Not sure which amps were being considered.

73,
Dave   AB7E




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Re: [Elecraft] Key Clicks

[David Gilbert]

QSK has everything to do with it.  If you hot switch the amp you create
sharp waveforms every element even if the K3 keying is soft.  The
discussion on the contesting forum included comments that the default
setting for TXDELAY on the K3 (apparently 008) isn't long enough and that
it should be set to 009.  Not sure which amps were being considered.

73,
Dave   AB7E

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 5:40 PM John Simmons 
wrote:

> I have operated a number of the 'big' CW contests. I have heard some
> really, really wide sigs with horrible key clicks. Yes they were
> strong but 10 KHz wide? Rob Sherwood and others have written about
> this. Some of the really high-end rigs (non-Elecraft) allow user
> adjustment of CW rise time to such short values that key clicks are
> guaranteed. Yech!
>
> -de John NI0K
>
> Fred Jensen wrote on 6/6/2020 7:05 PM:
> > True. TXDelay is a sequencing parameter to assure that downstream
> > switching has completed before RF appears. The keying waveform
> > [particularly the edges and "corners"] affect the sidebands and thus
> > bandwidth of the CW signal.  I don't believe QSK has anything to do
> > with it, at least for a K3.
> >
> > 73,
> > Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> > Sparks NV DM09dn
> > Washoe County
> >
> > On 6/6/2020 4:55 PM, N4ZR wrote:
> >> There's a big discussion going on in contesting circles online about
> >> the problem of key clicks.  There's been a lot of discussion about
> >> settings called things like TXDelay, but so far as I can tell (and
> >> the manual confirms), the K3's TX delay is intended to protect
> >> amplifier relays at the start of a transmission.  So long as you
> >> don't run QSK, I would think that setting would have no influence on
> >> key clicks after the rise of the first CW element.  True?
> >
> > __
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Re: [Elecraft] Key Clicks

[John Simmons]

I have operated a number of the 'big' CW contests. I have heard some 
really, really wide sigs with horrible key clicks. Yes they were 
strong but 10 KHz wide? Rob Sherwood and others have written about 
this. Some of the really high-end rigs (non-Elecraft) allow user 
adjustment of CW rise time to such short values that key clicks are 
guaranteed. Yech!


-de John NI0K

Fred Jensen wrote on 6/6/2020 7:05 PM:
True. TXDelay is a sequencing parameter to assure that downstream 
switching has completed before RF appears. The keying waveform 
[particularly the edges and "corners"] affect the sidebands and thus 
bandwidth of the CW signal.  I don't believe QSK has anything to do 
with it, at least for a K3.


73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 6/6/2020 4:55 PM, N4ZR wrote:
There's a big discussion going on in contesting circles online about 
the problem of key clicks.  There's been a lot of discussion about 
settings called things like TXDelay, but so far as I can tell (and 
the manual confirms), the K3's TX delay is intended to protect 
amplifier relays at the start of a transmission.  So long as you 
don't run QSK, I would think that setting would have no influence on 
key clicks after the rise of the first CW element.  True?


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Re: [Elecraft] Key Clicks

[Fred Jensen]

True.  TXDelay is a sequencing parameter to assure that downstream 
switching has completed before RF appears. The keying waveform 
[particularly the edges and "corners"] affect the sidebands and thus 
bandwidth of the CW signal.  I don't believe QSK has anything to do with 
it, at least for a K3.


73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 6/6/2020 4:55 PM, N4ZR wrote:
There's a big discussion going on in contesting circles online about 
the problem of key clicks.  There's been a lot of discussion about 
settings called things like TXDelay, but so far as I can tell (and the 
manual confirms), the K3's TX delay is intended to protect amplifier 
relays at the start of a transmission.  So long as you don't run QSK, 
I would think that setting would have no influence on key clicks after 
the rise of the first CW element.  True?


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[Elecraft] Key Clicks

[N4ZR]

There's a big discussion going on in contesting circles online about the 
problem of key clicks.  There's been a lot of discussion about settings 
called things like TXDelay, but so far as I can tell (and the manual 
confirms), the K3's TX delay is intended to protect amplifier relays at 
the start of a transmission.  So long as you don't run QSK, I would 
think that setting would have no influence on key clicks after the rise 
of the first CW element.  True?


--
73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the Reverse Beacon Network
at , now
spotting RTTY activity worldwide.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.

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Re: [Elecraft] Key Clicks? Maybe, Maybe not.

[Steve Ellington]

I'll go ahead an mention it. The ICOM PRO series is well know for hearing 
clicks that aren't there. In fact, the rx in those rigs has the ability to 
convert static into ear splitting clicks. When they first hit the market, 
some owners were saying "The DSP filters are so sharp that when you tune off 
frequency, you can't hear the carrier but can still hear the clicks", trying 
to make us believe that the clicks were actually present but just couldn't 
be heard on lesser receivers! I had both the PRO II and PRO III. Both were 
bad for this but otherwise great rigs and I still miss the handy scope 
eventhough I have LP-PAN, which is far superior, I still miss the built in 
bandscope.
So KA1J sounded very clean on this end but maybe not on a PRO.

Steve Ellington
n...@carolina.rr.com
- Original Message - 
From: "Gary NL7Y" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 10:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Key Clicks? Maybe, Maybe not.


>
>
>
> Gary Smith wrote:
>>
>> I have an interesting thing to figure out...
>>
>> I have a K3 and my amp is a TenTec Titan 425.
>>
>> I was CQing DX on 160 CW today using semi break-in and a fellow came
>> by and said I was generating key clicks.
>> Ideas?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Gary
>> KA1J
>>
>>
>
> This may not be the issue in your case, but two thoughts. I recently owned
> two radios that "heard" key clicks on loud CW and static crashes. I'll not
> mention the Brand or Model, as no need for bashing here. Seemed to be an
> AGC-derived problem that could be reduced with AGC adjustment on that rig,
> and by implementing the NB.
>
> Here's a comment regarding AGC "pops" that may have some bearing. Not the
> rig I owned however: http://www.sherweng.com/documents/Dayton2007w.pdf.
>
> 73 Gary NL7Y
>
> -- 
> View this message in context: 
> http://n2.nabble.com/Key-Clicks--Maybe%2C-Maybe-not.-tp2272930p2273199.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> __
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.18/1935 - Release Date: 02/03/09 
17:48:00

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Re: [Elecraft] Key Clicks? Maybe, Maybe not.

[Gary NL7Y]

Gary Smith wrote:
> 
> I have an interesting thing to figure out...
> 
> I have a K3 and my amp is a TenTec Titan 425.
> 
> I was CQing DX on 160 CW today using semi break-in and a fellow came 
> by and said I was generating key clicks. 
> Ideas?
> 
> Thanks,
> Gary
> KA1J
> 
> 

This may not be the issue in your case, but two thoughts. I recently owned
two radios that "heard" key clicks on loud CW and static crashes. I'll not
mention the Brand or Model, as no need for bashing here. Seemed to be an
AGC-derived problem that could be reduced with AGC adjustment on that rig,
and by implementing the NB.

Here's a comment regarding AGC "pops" that may have some bearing. Not the
rig I owned however: http://www.sherweng.com/documents/Dayton2007w.pdf.

73 Gary NL7Y

-- 
View this message in context: 
http://n2.nabble.com/Key-Clicks--Maybe%2C-Maybe-not.-tp2272930p2273199.html
Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: [Elecraft] Key Clicks? Maybe, Maybe not.

[Gary Smith]

Thought I should post this,

Steve & I just QSOed and I was 20 over at his QTH (40 watts drive 
into a TenTec Titan 425) He checked my signal both with full & semi 
break-in and deemed my signal clean.

That was the same finding by the folks I interrupted to give me a 
check-out

It does beg the question of why it would be heard by others. The 
possibility some radios hear clicks because of internal issues with 
their receivers does seem likely.

I am most relieved I have no keying issues... I did not think it was 
the K3 in any way but perhaps something interfacing with the titan 
amp. This particular amp was designed by Dick Frey who used to be the 
principal engineer at Harris corp (Dick has the serial # 1 Titan 425) 
and I know he designs nothing but the best but anything can break 
down.

Time for some of that special cider I make at this time o' the 
year...

Gary
KA1J

P.S. Thanks again Steve.

> > Gary
> > KA1J
> >> Gary:
> >> Wonder what the other guy was using for a rig? The ICOM PRO's tend to 
> >> make
> >> every strong cw signal sound clicky.
> >> Give me a call on 160 and I'll be glad to listen on this K3. I'll be on
> >> tonight. Name your freq. and time. 73
> >> Steve Ellington N4LQ
> >>
> >> n...@carolina.rr.com
> >> - Original Message - 
> >> From: "Gary Smith" 
> >> To: 
> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 9:00 PM
> >> Subject: [Elecraft] Key Clicks? Maybe, Maybe not.
> >>
> >>
> >> >I have an interesting thing to figure out...
> >> >
> >> > I have a K3 and my amp is a TenTec Titan 425.
> >> >
> >> > I was CQing DX on 160 CW today using semi break-in and a fellow came
> >> > by and said I was generating key clicks. He came back and asked me to
> >> > QSY to SSB and I looked for him but didn't find him.
> >> >
> >> > I went up in the band a bit to a local net with strong signals and
> >> > asked if they'd listen to my signal for clicks. I sent CW and the
> >> > answer came back my signal was fine, no issues. A KP4 said I had no
> >> > clicks.
> >> >
> >> > So I went to the DX cluster to see what was on & there was a note
> >> > from the fellow who asked me to QSY telling me where to meet him
> >> > posted 20 minutes earlier. Not reaching him I sent him an email and
> >> > he returned with a nice note saying the following when I said I don't
> >> > have any key clicks:
> >> >
> >> > 
> >> > "Hi Gary yes you do but it may be that you don't have enough delay in
> >> > the amp there are a number of guys on the TB chat the heard it ..it
> >> > only occurs on the  dashes  but at least 5 others heard in including
> >> > a couple very knowledgeable guys that where the delay idea came
> >> > from".
> >> > 
> >> >
> >> > I called Elecraft tech for suggestions and the only thing we came up
> >> > with was to change the Tx delay from 008 to something higher..
> >> >
> >> > Before I do that, I wonder if there's any other ideas from the group
> >> > as to what might be an issue. To recap and expand: I was using semi
> >> > break in and sending around 22WPM using the memory keyer in the K3.
> >> > As the it was semi-break-in, there was no relay on the amp that was
> >> > being switched on or off in-between characters or even in-between
> >> > words.
> >> >
> >> > The Titan amp is a QSK amp so it has no issue with fast relay turn-
> >> > around times. When I transmit there are no apparent issues with
> >> > feedback getting into the K3, no relay sounds from overload etc. I
> >> > was transmitting with 45W into the Titan. The fellow said it was on
> >> > the dashes that there are the clicks.
> >> >
> >> > Ideas?
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> > Gary
> >> > KA1J
> >> > __
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> >>
> >>
> >> 
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> No virus found in this incoming message.
> >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> >> Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.18/1935 - Release Date: 
> >> 02/03/09
> >> 17:48:00
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.18/1935 - Release Date: 02/03/09 
> 17:48:00
> 
> 


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[Elecraft] Key Clicks? Maybe, Maybe not.

[Gary Smith]

I have an interesting thing to figure out...

I have a K3 and my amp is a TenTec Titan 425.

I was CQing DX on 160 CW today using semi break-in and a fellow came 
by and said I was generating key clicks. He came back and asked me to 
QSY to SSB and I looked for him but didn't find him.

I went up in the band a bit to a local net with strong signals and 
asked if they'd listen to my signal for clicks. I sent CW and the 
answer came back my signal was fine, no issues. A KP4 said I had no 
clicks. 

So I went to the DX cluster to see what was on & there was a note 
from the fellow who asked me to QSY telling me where to meet him 
posted 20 minutes earlier. Not reaching him I sent him an email and 
he returned with a nice note saying the following when I said I don't 
have any key clicks:


"Hi Gary yes you do but it may be that you don't have enough delay in 
the amp there are a number of guys on the TB chat the heard it ..it 
only occurs on the  dashes  but at least 5 others heard in including 
a couple very knowledgeable guys that where the delay idea came 
from".


I called Elecraft tech for suggestions and the only thing we came up 
with was to change the Tx delay from 008 to something higher..

Before I do that, I wonder if there's any other ideas from the group 
as to what might be an issue. To recap and expand: I was using semi 
break in and sending around 22WPM using the memory keyer in the K3. 
As the it was semi-break-in, there was no relay on the amp that was 
being switched on or off in-between characters or even in-between 
words.

The Titan amp is a QSK amp so it has no issue with fast relay turn-
around times. When I transmit there are no apparent issues with 
feedback getting into the K3, no relay sounds from overload etc. I 
was transmitting with 45W into the Titan. The fellow said it was on 
the dashes that there are the clicks.

Ideas?

Thanks,
Gary
KA1J
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Re: [Elecraft] Key clicks

[W3FPR - Don Wilhelm]

Nano,

Sorry you didn't get a response earlier.

K2 keying starts in the microprocessor and exits the associated 8 bit DAC 
(U8) as the V-PWR signal.  Then it is shaped in the ALC circuits and comes 
out as the V-ALC signal (the level of this signal also controls the power 
output level).  (The recent keying waveshape change modified components in 
the ALC circuit area. - if you have a new K2, it is included)


The V-ALC signal activates Q24 (see schematic RF board sheet 2 - lower right 
corner).
The signal then goes to the Xmit Mixer (U10) and then to the Buffer (U9) and 
then on to the bandpass filters.  The output of the BPF then feeds the 
Driver and Power Amplifier (sheet 4 of the schematic) and finally goes to 
the T/R switch and Low Pass Filters.


I do hope that helps you find the problem.

73,
Don W3FPR

- Original Message - 



Unfortunately no reply's on my posting, so I guess
I have to dig deeper into the way the CW signal is generated,and do some
wave form checks.
To do this I need some help,because the schematic diagram does not help 
me.

I woulk like to know the signal path for CW ,I guess it starts with U8 but
then...??




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[Elecraft] Key clicks

[Nanko]

Unfortunately no reply's on my posting, so I guess
I have to dig deeper into the way the CW signal is generated,and do some
wave form checks.
To do this I need some help,because the schematic diagram does not help me.
I woulk like to know the signal path for CW ,I guess it starts with U8 but
then...??

.mni tnx for your time  73  Nanko  PA0V





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[Elecraft] Key clicks.

[Nanko]

Thanks to W6UR raspy CW tone is solved,my mistake C91 not mounted.
But still having problems with keyclicks.


K2 s power amp is not used,permanent in class C,but a rectified RF output from 
transverter output is
fed to V RFDET pin 10 aux I/O
When with external PS <2 Volts is applied to pin 10, K2 starts to transmit.!?
RF output LED bar follows this voltage,but has unpredictable effect on output

I am checking the signal on 28 MHz with a FT101,K2 power amp and transverter 
switched off .
not overdriving the receiver,noiseblanker off

With minimum power, key click when key goes up (open) with maximum power
clicks when key goes down. 

hope someone can help!!  73  Nanko  PA0V


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