Re: [Elecraft] OT: K3 and High Tension Wires

[Jim Brown]

On Sat,3/19/2016 3:42 PM, Phil Kane wrote:

  "Low voltage" meant that the insulators were less than a meter long.:)


It has a very different meaning in the wiring of buildings. Low voltage 
is less than 25V RMS or less than 25VDC, and has less stringent 
requirements for protection by being installed in raceways (conduit, 
cable tray, etc.)  Most audio, video, RF, and control circuits in 
buildings carry low voltage. And that's why 24V is used for "low voltage 
lighting."


Our Chicago SBE chapter toured the Argonne National Accelerator Lab SW 
of Chicago about 15-20 years ago.When the engineering crew talked about 
the hundreds of power amplifiers running "a gallon" to referred to the 
hundreds of Megawatt power amplifiers that powered the accelerator.  
They told us the operating frequencies, and in the parking lot outside 
the building, you couldn't hear a peep from them!


73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] OT: K3 and High Tension Wires

[Bill]

When arcing, they are generally visible (at night) and the arc noise can 
be heard when standing near the line(s) in question. That gives you the 
ability to locate the fire hazard.


Local fire departments have been known to take a very dim view of fire 
hazards - and they have amazing power to force the power companies to 
remove any and all fire hazards.


I know this from experience - it does work. Perhaps the same method 
would work in other circumstances also.


Bill W2BLC K-Line


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Re: [Elecraft] OT: K3 and High Tension Wires

[Phil Kane]

On 3/15/2016 2:05 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:

> Count the "fins" on the insulators to estimate the voltage.  69-70 KV
> are often on large umbrella type or short hanging ones.  The 112 KV were
> hanging from ones with about 6 sections.  230 KV usually have 12-14
> sections.  500 KV [and DC interties] have too many to count.

My wife spent a good part of her working career as an engineering
designer for industrial power and instrumentation projects including
generating and transmission substations.  "Low voltage" meant that the
insulators were less than a meter long.  :)
-- --

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402

>From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: K3 and High Tension Wires

[Robert Nobis]

I have a 300KV distribution line about 0.5 miles from my QTH, and have not had 
any significant issues. About every month or two I walk along two miles of the 
power line with my KX3 checking for increased noise on various bands that I 
normally use. Only once in eight years did I hear anything and it was only 
about 3 to 4dB above my normal noise levels. A week later I checked and didn’t 
hear it. Could have been the power line or could have been something else.

73,

Bob Nobis - N7RJN
n7...@nobis.net


> On Mar 16, 2016, at 16:51, Fred Jensen  wrote:
> 
> Yes, and buried in there is the reason why it is so hard to get the power 
> company's attention for distribution line noise [12-14 KV] ... the loss to 
> them is minuscule compared to other costs.
> 
> With no disparagement of power linemen intended, distribution is almost 
> universally on wood poles if it isn't underground.  They're assembled on-site 
> to more or less standard configurations, and the hardware often reclines in 
> the back of their trucks exposed to the weather and oxidation for weeks [or 
> months].  The standard configurations usually require some [or a lot] of 
> on-site "special engineering" to satisfy the real-time need at a given pole.
> 
> Above distribution voltages the lines are engineered.  Towers are built to 
> fairly exacting standards and erected by professional riggers.  If something 
> is wrong, they go back to the engineers.  The power company *does* have an 
> interest in corona and leakage losses at 100 KV and above.  I think that's 
> why most really high voltage lines are quiet.
> 
> RFI from distribution circuits is really an FCC [or other national comm 
> regulator] responsibility ... they're incidental radiators under Part 15 in 
> the US.  That said, the K3 NB took out almost all the distribution line noise 
> I had when we were in CA ... it failed on the CalTrans street lamp, but so 
> did everything else. :-)  I rarely used NR, just couldn't find the sweet spot 
> to make it effective.
> 
> 73,
> 
> Fred K6DGW
> - Northern California Contest Club
> - CU in the Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2016
> - www.cqp.org
> 
> On 3/16/2016 4:16 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
>> On Wed,3/16/2016 9:08 AM, Scott Ellington wrote:
>>> The arcing that causes RFI is usually not from the power lines
>>> themselves, but various pieces of poorly bonded hardware NEAR the
>>> power lines.
>> 
>> Right. But most engineers would view the lines and that hardware as a
>> "power distribution system," and an attempt to separate the two a game
>> of semantics. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. :)
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: K3 and High Tension Wires

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

Always be ready to play the "public utilities commission" card.

On 3/16/2016 9:11 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
Another local ham who is an attorney found that contacting the state 
agency regulating PGE got his problems fixed when PG had previously 
failed to do so. 


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[Elecraft] OT: K3 and High Tension Wires

[Ken G Kopp]

Well said, Dave.  Unlike another poster, you appear to have an excellent,
first-hand knowledge of the problem.  My 18 years as the line noise tech
with the Montana Power Company validates your observations.

73

K0PP
On Mar 16, 2016 11:09 AM, "Dave Olean" <k1...@metrocast.net> wrote:

> I murdered your e mail addresses going off the reflector. They came back
> undelivered.  2nd try!
> - Original Message - From: "Dave Olean" <k1...@metrocast.net>
> To: "Lewis Phelps" <l...@n6lew.us>
> Cc: <j...@audiosystemsgroup.com>; <kengk...@gmail.com>; <n...@sonic.net>; <
> k6...@foothill.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 1:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] OT: K3 and High Tension Wires
>
>
> Lewis,
>> I would have to respectfully disagree with a major portion of your
>> comments. I would think a better way to discuss power line problems would
>> be to admit that many power line designs for the medium voltages used in
>> neighborhoods are not up to the task. How do I know this? I have had a
>> running battle with an electric utility from the year 1999 up to the
>> present. It has consumed so much of my time that I finally gave up without
>> ever obtaining a lasting solution to my problem.  In those fifteen years I
>> became intimately aware of the problems that can plague above ground power
>> distribution systems. I have even sat in on utility company training
>> sessions, getting a first hand look at how the electric utility trains its
>> line crews.
>>
>> "If the RF interference is caused by power line arcing, it’s going to get
>> detected and fixed pretty quickly by the utility. If it’s there all the
>> time, it very likely isn’t the power company at fault."
>>
>> I would argue that my attempt at power line noise resolution for over 15
>> years does not come anywhere near close to your statement above. The 19 and
>> 34 KV lines really are just too problematic and cannot be expected to be
>> quiet for any length of time. The noise gtenerated has nothing to do with
>> the current carrying wires being too close together. It has everything to
>> do with the huge voltage gradients near high voltage lines and the oxidized
>> metal surfaces in that same area. As someone previously mentioned, staples
>> on ground leads on poles are a constant source of noise. Bell insulators
>> with metal on metal joints between sections are just not capable of
>> remaining quiet for any length of time on these systems. Tie wraps holding
>> wires to pole insulators are always failing. Metal to metal contacts seem
>> to always fail. The electric utility Co does not like to use polymer
>> insulators becuase they do not last as long as the bell insulators in their
>> eyes.  If they would use polymer insulators and remove those metal to metal
>> oxidized surfaces, things would improve in a hurry. The systems are not
>> designed properly for minimizing noise. They are only designed so that they
>> will not fall down over time.  19 and 34 KV systems are the worst in my
>> opinion.
>>My situation got so bad that I had to contact the FCC to get the power
>> company to even respond to my complaints. Only after receiving a registered
>> letter from the FCC and Riley Hollingsworth did the power company try to
>> help solve my problem. A second letter from Laura Smith at the FCC was also
>> needed. After all of this I still had to expend tremendous amounts of time
>> documenting all of the failures and hope that the utility would fix them in
>> an aggressive manner. They never did. The technical people would come out
>> and do a good job of corroborating my findings and writing them up for nthe
>> crews, but the line crews always would come up short and fail to adequately
>> fix the problems. Some of that was  due to lack of understanding. Another
>> part was due to the distribution system, as designed, was not really
>> capable of being quiet for very long. There were just too many high voltage
>> gradients around oxidized/corroded pieces of metal.  An interesting point I
>> noted was that the cable systems located on the same poles were almost
>> never a source of noise for me. I can recall only one instance of CATV RFI
>> and that involved cable leakage that affected the 145 MHz frequency range.
>>So now I have a ham shack that has a nice view of a town 8 miles away
>> along with a line of sight view of a 34.5 KV distribution line that feeds
>> central New Hampshire. At any given time there are 20 or 30 individual
>> noise emitters that are constantly bothering me on headings between 150
>

Re: [Elecraft] OT: K3 and High Tension Wires

[Jim Brown]

On Wed,3/16/2016 6:27 AM, Dave Olean wrote:
If the RF interference is caused by power line arcing, it’s going to 
get detected and fixed pretty quickly by the utility. If it’s there 
all the time, it very likely isn’t the power company at fault.


Here in Northern California where PG is our power utility, it is 
usually possible to get them to send a crew out to investigate and 
document an issue, but nearly impossible to get it fixed. NI6T, an EE 
with considerable experience in the matter, managed to get cozy with at 
least one PG investigator, and learned that managers of the department 
that FIXES these problems is rewarded in proportion to their annual 
budget that is NOT spent. In other words, they are incentivized to NOT 
fix problems.


Another local ham who is an attorney found that contacting the state 
agency regulating PGE got his problems fixed when PG had previously 
failed to do so.


Since the experience of both of these hams is directly related to 
business practices and the profit motive, one might reasonably suspect 
that they are at least somewhat universal throughout the industry.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: K3 and High Tension Wires

[Jim Brown]

On Wed,3/16/2016 9:08 AM, Scott Ellington wrote:
The arcing that causes RFI is usually not from the power lines 
themselves, but various pieces of poorly bonded hardware NEAR the 
power lines.


Right. But most engineers would view the lines and that hardware as a 
"power distribution system," and an attempt to separate the two a game 
of semantics. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. :)


73, Jim
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: K3 and High Tension Wires

[Fred Jensen]

Yes, and buried in there is the reason why it is so hard to get the 
power company's attention for distribution line noise [12-14 KV] ... the 
loss to them is minuscule compared to other costs.


With no disparagement of power linemen intended, distribution is almost 
universally on wood poles if it isn't underground.  They're assembled 
on-site to more or less standard configurations, and the hardware often 
reclines in the back of their trucks exposed to the weather and 
oxidation for weeks [or months].  The standard configurations usually 
require some [or a lot] of on-site "special engineering" to satisfy the 
real-time need at a given pole.


Above distribution voltages the lines are engineered.  Towers are built 
to fairly exacting standards and erected by professional riggers.  If 
something is wrong, they go back to the engineers.  The power company 
*does* have an interest in corona and leakage losses at 100 KV and 
above.  I think that's why most really high voltage lines are quiet.


RFI from distribution circuits is really an FCC [or other national comm 
regulator] responsibility ... they're incidental radiators under Part 15 
in the US.  That said, the K3 NB took out almost all the distribution 
line noise I had when we were in CA ... it failed on the CalTrans street 
lamp, but so did everything else. :-)  I rarely used NR, just couldn't 
find the sweet spot to make it effective.


73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the Cal QSO Party 1-2 Oct 2016
- www.cqp.org

On 3/16/2016 4:16 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

On Wed,3/16/2016 9:08 AM, Scott Ellington wrote:

The arcing that causes RFI is usually not from the power lines
themselves, but various pieces of poorly bonded hardware NEAR the
power lines.


Right. But most engineers would view the lines and that hardware as a
"power distribution system," and an attempt to separate the two a game
of semantics. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. :)


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Re: [Elecraft] OT: K3 and High Tension Wires

[Scott Ellington]

The arcing that causes RFI is usually not from the power lines 
themselves, but various pieces of poorly bonded hardware NEAR the power 
lines.



73,

Scott  K9MA


On 3/16/2016 09:18, Wes (N7WS) wrote:

He did say that he was head of the PR department.

On 3/15/2016 8:58 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

Lew,

That's in direct conflict with everything I've seen from RFI 
engineers. Over the years, I've seen plenty of reports of hardware in 
the power system failing in a mode that causes it to arc. See 
http://www.arrl.org/power-line-noise for a great discussion of all 
sorts of RF noise, including power line noise. At least 10 years ago, 
I bought and read "AC Power Interference Handbook" by Marv Loftness, 
a field engineer who specialized in that work. He said that virtually 
all power line noise is caused by SOMETHING arcing.


73, Jim K9YC

On Tue,3/15/2016 3:35 PM, Lewis Phelps wrote:
Drawing from a decade of experience working as head of the PR 
department for a major electric utility (a long time ago), I’d like 
to suggest that arcing per se should not be a problem at any time 
with any power line if it is functioning properly. The individual 
transmission wires are spaced far enough apart that arcing shouldn’t 
be possible.




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--
Scott Ellington  K9MA
Madison, Wisconsin, USA

k...@sdellington.us

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Re: [Elecraft] OT: K3 and High Tension Wires

[Wes (N7WS)]

He did say that he was head of the PR department.

On 3/15/2016 8:58 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

Lew,

That's in direct conflict with everything I've seen from RFI engineers. Over 
the years, I've seen plenty of reports of hardware in the power system failing 
in a mode that causes it to arc. See http://www.arrl.org/power-line-noise for 
a great discussion of all sorts of RF noise, including power line noise. At 
least 10 years ago, I bought and read "AC Power Interference Handbook" by Marv 
Loftness, a field engineer who specialized in that work. He said that 
virtually all power line noise is caused by SOMETHING arcing.


73, Jim K9YC

On Tue,3/15/2016 3:35 PM, Lewis Phelps wrote:
Drawing from a decade of experience working as head of the PR department for 
a major electric utility (a long time ago), I’d like to suggest that arcing 
per se should not be a problem at any time with any power line if it is 
functioning properly. The individual transmission wires are spaced far enough 
apart that arcing shouldn’t be possible.




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Re: [Elecraft] OT: K3 and High Tension Wires

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

Lots of good info, but due to the large number of posts, let's end this thread 
now in the interest of lowering list overload for others.


73, Eric

Eric
/Modulator - //elecraft.com/

On 3/16/2016 10:27 AM, Ken G Kopp wrote:

Well said, Dave.  Unlike another poster, you appear to have an excellent,
first-hand knowledge of the problem.  My 18 years as the line noise tech
with the Montana Power Company validates your observations.

73



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Re: [Elecraft] OT: K3 and High Tension Wires

[Lewis Phelps]

Please reread the first sentence of my prior post, in which I qualified what I 
said with the phrase “…if it’s functioning properly.” What I said is NOT in 
conflict with your points. Power line noise is, de facto, the result of some 
sort of equipment failure. We agree on that. If something is arcing in a power 
distribution system, it’s because something is broken.

I suggest that we take go offline with any further discussion on the issue, 
since it is OT.

Lew

> On Mar 15, 2016, at 8:58 PM, Jim Brown  wrote:
> 
> Lew,
> 
> That's in direct conflict with everything I've seen from RFI engineers. Over 
> the years, I've seen plenty of reports of hardware in the power system 
> failing in a mode that causes it to arc. See 
> http://www.arrl.org/power-line-noise for a great discussion of all sorts of 
> RF noise, including power line noise. At least 10 years ago, I bought and 
> read "AC Power Interference Handbook" by Marv Loftness, a field engineer who 
> specialized in that work. He said that virtually all power line noise is 
> caused by SOMETHING arcing.
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC
> 
> On Tue,3/15/2016 3:35 PM, Lewis Phelps wrote:
>> Drawing from a decade of experience working as head of the PR department for 
>> a major electric utility (a long time ago), I’d like to suggest that arcing 
>> per se should not be a problem at any time with any power line if it is 
>> functioning properly. The individual transmission wires are spaced far 
>> enough apart that arcing shouldn’t be possible.
> 
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Lew Phelps N6LEW
Pasadena, CA DM04wd
Elecraft K3-10 / KXV144 / XV432
Yaesu FT-7800 
l...@n6lew.us
www.n6lew.us

Generalized Law of Entropy: Sooner or later, everything that has been put 
together will fall apart.





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Re: [Elecraft] OT: K3 and High Tension Wires

[Ken G Kopp]

The Loftness book is the "go to" text on power line noise.

EVERY metal-to-metal junction is suspect.  Lazy linemen hammer lag bolts
straight in when installing cross arm braces.  Metal steeples holding
ground wire running down a pole arc and set poles on fire.  The list is
endless.

73

K0PP
Retired power company noise chaser
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: K3 and High Tension Wires

[Jim Brown]

Lew,

That's in direct conflict with everything I've seen from RFI engineers. 
Over the years, I've seen plenty of reports of hardware in the power 
system failing in a mode that causes it to arc. See 
http://www.arrl.org/power-line-noise for a great discussion of all sorts 
of RF noise, including power line noise. At least 10 years ago, I bought 
and read "AC Power Interference Handbook" by Marv Loftness, a field 
engineer who specialized in that work. He said that virtually all power 
line noise is caused by SOMETHING arcing.


73, Jim K9YC

On Tue,3/15/2016 3:35 PM, Lewis Phelps wrote:

Drawing from a decade of experience working as head of the PR department for a 
major electric utility (a long time ago), I’d like to suggest that arcing per 
se should not be a problem at any time with any power line if it is functioning 
properly. The individual transmission wires are spaced far enough apart that 
arcing shouldn’t be possible.


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Re: [Elecraft] OT: K3 and High Tension Wires

[Lewis Phelps]

Drawing from a decade of experience working as head of the PR department for a 
major electric utility (a long time ago), I’d like to suggest that arcing per 
se should not be a problem at any time with any power line if it is functioning 
properly. The individual transmission wires are spaced far enough apart that 
arcing shouldn’t be possible. Many utilities regularly wash down the insulators 
of high voltage transmission lines using specialized equipment that cleans 
condensed salt water fog off the insulators with deionized water (necessary to 
keep from zapping the guy running the spray nozzle). This is to prevent arcing 
between phases, which can otherwise occur in high humidity situations.  If 
there’s noise coming from lower-voltage distribution lines down “down the hill” 
I would name the prime suspect as cable TV equipment that’s hung on the same 
utility poles as the power line. If the RF interference is caused by power line 
arcing, it’s going to get detected and fixed pretty quickly by the utility. If 
it’s there all the time, it very likely isn’t the power company at fault. (This 
discussion doesn’t include any consideration of Power Line Communication 
technologies, which are an identifiably different kind of interference.)

See:  
http://tdworld.com/overhead-distribution/insulator-washing-helps-maintain-reliability


Lew N6LEW



> On Mar 15, 2016, at 3:17 PM, Alan  wrote:
> 
> The 6 meter moonbouncer who lives up the hill from me told me he has no 
> problem from the high-tension line that runs right by his place but has 
> experienced noise from the lower-voltage lines farther down the hill.
> 
> I suspect that HT lines are probably less likely to have arcing than 
> lower-voltage lines, simply because it would be a much bigger problem for the 
> power company if they did.
> 
> Alan N1AL
> 
> 
> On 03/15/2016 02:27 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
>> On Tue,3/15/2016 12:56 PM, Rose wrote:
>>> It sounds like you're speaking of a distribution line.  Do you have
>>> any idea that the voltage is?  Is there more than one pole at each
>>> cross arm?  It could be almost anything up to 240 KV ... or more.
>>> In my semi-rural area the voltage for distribution is 14.4 KV, which
>>> is pretty usual these days.
>> 
>> I have a high voltage distribution line running along my property line
>> that has not been a problem in the 10 years I've lived here, but there's
>> been other power line noise around that's radiated from other poles.
>> 
>> 73, Jim K9YC
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Lew Phelps N6LEW
Pasadena, CA DM04wd
Elecraft K3-10 / KXV144 / XV432
Yaesu FT-7800 
l...@n6lew.us
www.n6lew.us

Generalized Law of Entropy: Sooner or later, everything that has been put 
together will fall apart.





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Re: [Elecraft] OT: K3 and High Tension Wires

[Fred Jensen]

Others might be interested ...

We moved here to Sparks NV last Aug.  Prior, we lived on 5 rural ac 
outside of Auburn CA for 38 years.  Distribution lines were 12 KV, we 
had our own pole pig.  There was a 69 KV tie line on wood poles between 
two hydro plants that cut across the south corner.  There was 
two-circuit 112 KV line on metal towers about 1/4 mi to the east that 
had a tap across the south end of the property again about 1/4 mi. 
Never got any noise attributable to any of them.


Now, the CalTrans sodium vapor street lamp at the Interstate off-ramp a 
mile away was a whole different story.  It began to fail about 4 years 
ago, and I never could get them to replace the lamp and ballast.  Over 
the years, the ambient noise rose slowly, almost all from the ubiquitous 
SMPS, most probably ours and our nearest neighbor.


Growing up [a long time ago], a two circuit 230 KV line from Hoover Dam 
to Los Angeles ran a block away.  Never any noise from them.  We drove 
through the little town a couple of years ago, it is now a 500 KV line 
and no noise on my mobile driving on the road right beside it.  My 
experience is that the HV lines [60 KV and up] get good maintenance and 
are almost universally quiet.  Distribution lines not so much.


Count the "fins" on the insulators to estimate the voltage.  69-70 KV 
are often on large umbrella type or short hanging ones.  The 112 KV were 
hanging from ones with about 6 sections.  230 KV usually have 12-14 
sections.  500 KV [and DC interties] have too many to count.


On 3/15/2016 12:17 PM, Chris Hallinan wrote:


We are considering moving to a location that is more friendly to ham radio
and especially the performance of my K3.  Here in our crowded neighborhood,
I have regular S7 noise levels on all the lower HF bands.  One home we
found (and like) sits fairly close to high tension wires (ie like one lot
away) however its in a much more rural area and likely to be more quite
w.r.t. the usual man-made RF hash.

Does anyone have any experience with living very close to high tension
wires (not tool close, plenty of room for wire antennas without any
danger.)  Assuming nothing is "broken" is it likely to produce RF noise in
the receiver?  Is this something I should be concerned about?


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Re: [Elecraft] OT: K3 and High Tension Wires

[w4grj]

They are all different,  one good way to find out is tune around on your car AM 
radio it will give you a good idea of rf noise level.JackW4GRJ


Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S®6 active, an AT 4G LTE smartphone 
Original message From: Chris Hallinan <challi...@gmail.com> Date: 
3/15/2016  15:17  (GMT-05:00) To: "<elecraft@mailman.qth.net>" 
<Elecraft@mailman.qth.net> Subject: [Elecraft] OT: K3 and High Tension Wires 
Greetings all.

We are considering moving to a location that is more friendly to ham radio
and especially the performance of my K3.  Here in our crowded neighborhood,
I have regular S7 noise levels on all the lower HF bands.  One home we
found (and like) sits fairly close to high tension wires (ie like one lot
away) however its in a much more rural area and likely to be more quite
w.r.t. the usual man-made RF hash.

Does anyone have any experience with living very close to high tension
wires (not tool close, plenty of room for wire antennas without any
danger.)  Assuming nothing is "broken" is it likely to produce RF noise in
the receiver?  Is this something I should be concerned about?

Thanks, and replies off list are appreciated to avoid the wrath of the list
moderator 

Regards,

Chris
K1AY

-- 
Life is like Linux - it never stands still.
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[Elecraft] OT: K3 and High Tension Wires

[Chris Hallinan]

Greetings all.

We are considering moving to a location that is more friendly to ham radio
and especially the performance of my K3.  Here in our crowded neighborhood,
I have regular S7 noise levels on all the lower HF bands.  One home we
found (and like) sits fairly close to high tension wires (ie like one lot
away) however its in a much more rural area and likely to be more quite
w.r.t. the usual man-made RF hash.

Does anyone have any experience with living very close to high tension
wires (not tool close, plenty of room for wire antennas without any
danger.)  Assuming nothing is "broken" is it likely to produce RF noise in
the receiver?  Is this something I should be concerned about?

Thanks, and replies off list are appreciated to avoid the wrath of the list
moderator 

Regards,

Chris
K1AY

-- 
Life is like Linux - it never stands still.
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