Re: [Elecraft] Radials for vertical
Doug, I am using a Butternut HF2V vertical on 80 and 40 meters. The HF2V is a base loaded ground mounted antenna. The HF2V is sitting atop 24 radials separated 15 degrees apart from each other. Half of the radials are 66 feet long; the remaining 12 radials are each 32 feet long. I used a sidewalk grass edger and removed the sidewalk guide to cut slots 2 inches deep into the ground. I had a fishtail dandelion cutter that I used to push 1100 feet of #10 copper wire down into the slots. I used a chalk line to guide the edger. It worked like a dream come true. The HF2V is sited on 2 acres in the open with no bends in the radials. The radials are connected to two 8 foot long copper coated ground rods bonded together. They are bonded to the base of the HF2V just above the fiberglass rod insulator. The rods and antenna are bonded together with a short piece of #6 stranded copper wire. The hardest job for me, now nearing 80 years old, was driving in the ground rods. I used a fence post driver until the bottom of its tube touched the ground, and then finished with an 8 pound sledgehammer. I guess pneumatic and even electrical impact drivers are now available for that job. But, I was lucky in that no rocks were in the way of the ground rods driven into fertile central Ohio farmland. The results were amazing. SWR of 1.0:1 at 3585 KHz; SWR 1.2:1 at 7045KHz. Bandwidth on 80 M between 2.0:1 points is 73 KHz; on 40 meters - a bandwidth of 96 KHz. I also have a Cushcraft R8 vertical with no radials except those a part of the antenna. The base of the R8 is 12 feet above ground with a SWR of 1.8:1 at 7045 KHz. It has a bandwidth of 14 KHz between 2.0:1 SWR points. The HF2V puts the R8 to shame. The HF2V has proved to be my long haul antenna to work into JA, UA0, YB, 3W2, E21, FR, FO, etc. from central Ohio. I didn't skimp on wire. I don't know how symmetry of the radials affects performance. My radials are perfectly symmetrical laid out using a rafter framing square and chalk line. I used the center of the tops of ground rods that extend two inches above ground as the focus. Yes, the wire was somewhat pricey, but it paid off for me. The aluminum wire that you have should work just fine placed in the ground in your grassy meadow. I can't comment on 43 foot verticals as I have no experience with them. I found that the more wire in the ground, the better the antenna operation. You will be pleasantly pleased. Good luck with it. 73 John W8UL On 6/29/2014 3:07 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote: Most people would think we're well into Summer. Not here in the High Rockies. Summer here has just begun. Time to mend some fences. Now the point: I just pulled about a mile of #11 soft drawn aluminum wire - mostly in 50' to 100' lengths. Normally its electrified and the cattle won't touch it. But last year the charger died and the cattle just shredded the wire to get into my grassy meadow. So now I have all this aluminum wire that I would hate to throw away. So I'm thinking of making a really good ground plane and putting up a vertical of some kind. I have enough scrap tubing to make about 38' or so. I was thinking of putting a remote tuner at the base of the vertical as the length of coax to reach it will probably be at least 150'. So I'd be interested in comments on how to configure the radials in terms of length and number. I know there's some guys on this reflector that real know a lot about this sort of thing. Thanks 73, Doug -- K0DXV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to w...@insight.rr.com - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4592 / Virus Database: 3986/7764 - Release Date: 06/29/14 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Radials for vertical
Hi Doug, The single best source of information on radials that I have found is that published by Rudy, N6LF. Here is a link: http://www.antennasbyn6lf.com/design_of_radial_ground_systems Scroll down the page and check out the seven part article that he published in QEX magazine and the six radial experiments that he conducted. It’s wonderful stuff. 73, Mike K2MK Elecraft mailing list wrote Most people would think we're well into Summer. Not here in the High Rockies. Summer here has just begun. Time to mend some fences. Now the point: I just pulled about a mile of #11 soft drawn aluminum wire - mostly in 50' to 100' lengths. Normally its electrified and the cattle won't touch it. But last year the charger died and the cattle just shredded the wire to get into my grassy meadow. So now I have all this aluminum wire that I would hate to throw away. So I'm thinking of making a really good ground plane and putting up a vertical of some kind. I have enough scrap tubing to make about 38' or so. I was thinking of putting a remote tuner at the base of the vertical as the length of coax to reach it will probably be at least 150'. So I'd be interested in comments on how to configure the radials in terms of length and number. I know there's some guys on this reflector that real know a lot about this sort of thing. Thanks 73, Doug -- K0DXV -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Radials-for-vertical-tp7590705p7590725.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Radials for vertical
Here is your definitive work on verticals and radials... http://www.antennasbyn6lf.com/ I visited his home a few months ago. He currently has 6, (they look to be 125 to 150 feet tall), verticals up for testing, and 640 work. If you look in the archives on the right of his page, you will find his many articles. -- Thanks and 73's, For equipment, and software setups and reviews see: www.nk7z.net for MixW support see; http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info for Dopplergram information see: http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info for MM-SSTV see: http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Radials for vertical
Wow... Great minds think alike... I just got your email on Rudy... :) -- Thanks and 73's, For equipment, and software setups and reviews see: www.nk7z.net for MixW support see; http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info for Dopplergram information see: http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info for MM-SSTV see: http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info On Mon, 2014-06-30 at 06:17 -0700, Mike K2MK wrote: Hi Doug, The single best source of information on radials that I have found is that published by Rudy, N6LF. Here is a link: http://www.antennasbyn6lf.com/design_of_radial_ground_systems Scroll down the page and check out the seven part article that he published in QEX magazine and the six radial experiments that he conducted. It’s wonderful stuff. 73, Mike K2MK Elecraft mailing list wrote Most people would think we're well into Summer. Not here in the High Rockies. Summer here has just begun. Time to mend some fences. Now the point: I just pulled about a mile of #11 soft drawn aluminum wire - mostly in 50' to 100' lengths. Normally its electrified and the cattle won't touch it. But last year the charger died and the cattle just shredded the wire to get into my grassy meadow. So now I have all this aluminum wire that I would hate to throw away. So I'm thinking of making a really good ground plane and putting up a vertical of some kind. I have enough scrap tubing to make about 38' or so. I was thinking of putting a remote tuner at the base of the vertical as the length of coax to reach it will probably be at least 150'. So I'd be interested in comments on how to configure the radials in terms of length and number. I know there's some guys on this reflector that real know a lot about this sort of thing. Thanks 73, Doug -- K0DXV -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Radials-for-vertical-tp7590705p7590725.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to d...@nk7z.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] Radials for vertical
Most people would think we're well into Summer. Not here in the High Rockies. Summer here has just begun. Time to mend some fences. Now the point: I just pulled about a mile of #11 soft drawn aluminum wire - mostly in 50' to 100' lengths. Normally its electrified and the cattle won't touch it. But last year the charger died and the cattle just shredded the wire to get into my grassy meadow. So now I have all this aluminum wire that I would hate to throw away. So I'm thinking of making a really good ground plane and putting up a vertical of some kind. I have enough scrap tubing to make about 38' or so. I was thinking of putting a remote tuner at the base of the vertical as the length of coax to reach it will probably be at least 150'. So I'd be interested in comments on how to configure the radials in terms of length and number. I know there's some guys on this reflector that real know a lot about this sort of thing. Thanks 73, Doug -- K0DXV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Radials for vertical
HI Doug: I assume you are talking about a vertical mounted on the ground. If so, you might want to consider extending it a bit to 43 feet.. some feel that length works well on bands from 80 through 10 meters. I'f not ever done that, so I don't know. But I have used base loaded verticals in years past. Some have said for a ground mounted vertical, you need at least 16 radials. If you can make them as long as the vertical, that'd good, but even half that size is good. More radials is better. And length is not critical.. so you can just use whatever sizes you have. If you elevate the radials... then length is critical, and you would want four radials every 90º for each band of interest. Glad to hear you want to put that AL wire to good use. :) 73 de Ray K2ULR On Jun 29, 2014, at 3:07 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote: Most people would think we're well into Summer. Not here in the High Rockies. Summer here has just begun. Time to mend some fences. Now the point: I just pulled about a mile of #11 soft drawn aluminum wire - mostly in 50' to 100' lengths. Normally its electrified and the cattle won't touch it. But last year the charger died and the cattle just shredded the wire to get into my grassy meadow. So now I have all this aluminum wire that I would hate to throw away. So I'm thinking of making a really good ground plane and putting up a vertical of some kind. I have enough scrap tubing to make about 38' or so. I was thinking of putting a remote tuner at the base of the vertical as the length of coax to reach it will probably be at least 150'. So I'd be interested in comments on how to configure the radials in terms of length and number. I know there's some guys on this reflector that real know a lot about this sort of thing. Thanks 73, Doug -- K0DXV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to raysil...@verizon.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Radials for vertical
On 6/29/2014 12:07 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote: So now I have all this aluminum wire that I would hate to throw away. So I'm thinking of making a really good ground plane and putting up a vertical of some kind. I have enough scrap tubing to make about 38' or so. I was thinking of putting a remote tuner at the base of the vertical as the length of coax to reach it will probably be at least 150'. I assume you mean a ground-mounted vertical? So I'd be interested in comments on how to configure the radials in terms of length and number. I know there's some guys on this reflector that real know a lot about this sort of thing. I know just about enough to get in trouble. That said, There is a small Cult of the 43 ft Vertical in ham radio ... ground-mounted, ATU remoted at the base, with a ground-plane. If 38' or so means getting to 43 ft, great. If not, there really isn't a huge amount of magic in 43 except that it's a prime. You have two choices: 1. Bury [like 6 inches deep] as many wires as you can, radiating out from the base of the antenna in all directions. Length is not critical but at least 1/4 wave on your lowest frequency is good, nor do they all need to be the same length. They don't even need to be straight. Ground planes for AM broadcast stations will often have one radial every degree around the vertical. 2. Elevate them a foot or two off the ground. In this case, length *does* matter, you'll need a few [like 4?] a little over 1/4 wave long for each of the bands you'll be using it on. This will likely also trip your cows. Ground-mounted verticals, at frequencies where they are about 1/4 wave high will have fairly low angle radiation. On higher frequencies where they are substantially longer electrically, they'll squirt your RF in several lobes, not all of which are useful. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014 - www.cqp.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] Radials for vertical
There is a lot of work on number and length of radials. You can get a good ground with anything from 16 1/4 wave radials to 120 1/10 wave radials buried. Elevated 1/4 wave radials work well with only 2, though 4 is nice. The experiments on this are either in the ARRL Antenna Book or the ON4UN Low Band book. I'll try and track it down. You may have rocky, low-conductivity soil, so radials could be much more important. wunder K6WRU On Jun 29, 2014, at 12:35 PM, Fred Jensen k6...@foothill.net wrote: On 6/29/2014 12:07 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote: So now I have all this aluminum wire that I would hate to throw away. So I'm thinking of making a really good ground plane and putting up a vertical of some kind. I have enough scrap tubing to make about 38' or so. I was thinking of putting a remote tuner at the base of the vertical as the length of coax to reach it will probably be at least 150'. I assume you mean a ground-mounted vertical? So I'd be interested in comments on how to configure the radials in terms of length and number. I know there's some guys on this reflector that real know a lot about this sort of thing. I know just about enough to get in trouble. That said, There is a small Cult of the 43 ft Vertical in ham radio ... ground-mounted, ATU remoted at the base, with a ground-plane. If 38' or so means getting to 43 ft, great. If not, there really isn't a huge amount of magic in 43 except that it's a prime. You have two choices: 1. Bury [like 6 inches deep] as many wires as you can, radiating out from the base of the antenna in all directions. Length is not critical but at least 1/4 wave on your lowest frequency is good, nor do they all need to be the same length. They don't even need to be straight. Ground planes for AM broadcast stations will often have one radial every degree around the vertical. 2. Elevate them a foot or two off the ground. In this case, length *does* matter, you'll need a few [like 4?] a little over 1/4 wave long for each of the bands you'll be using it on. This will likely also trip your cows. Ground-mounted verticals, at frequencies where they are about 1/4 wave high will have fairly low angle radiation. On higher frequencies where they are substantially longer electrically, they'll squirt your RF in several lobes, not all of which are useful. 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2014 Cal QSO Party 4-5 Oct 2014 - www.cqp.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to wun...@wunderwood.org -- Walter Underwood wun...@wunderwood.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
