[Elecraft] Side Tone (Choosing the right music)
With so many musicians on here, including the K1/K2 designer, maybe someone would comment on why sidetones are the frequency they are. Actually, I have been thinking more about how people choose the OFFSET they prefer more than the sidetone, but it's the same idea. It's interesting that you should say the sidetone was offensive because it was not a pure sine wave. It is my understanding (not being a musician myself), that humans prefer tones with harmonic content. Pure sine waves sound simple and harsh to the ear. Maybe we would find that even with a sidetone, there is some preferred harmonic content that makes it richer and more pleasing to listen to. The same goes for the offset frequency. I, and others, have commented on how much better the K1 sounds to us compared to even the K2. I don't know what quality the K1 has that makes us think that way, but there is something going on there that makes me choose the K1 for ragchewing. Something makes it less fatiguing or otherwise more pleasant for me, and it is independent of the speaker as I have traded external speakers back and forth bewteen the K1 and the K2. While thinking about it, and again, not being a musician, I began wondering why piano keys are tuned to the very specific, but seemingly odd frequencies they are. The lowest note on a piano is 28.5 Hz. Who decided something like that? Esp. way back 200+ years ago. All of the white keys are harmonically related to that bizarre 28 and 1/2 hz, now I know the reason for that, but why did they choose that particular frequency? I don't know the answer to that, but maybe it evolved over decades or even centuries of humans responding well to certain notes and not to others. (I should have done some basic research first, I guess). I doubt they were chosen at random and probably really do seem to be frequencies humans prefer. If that is so, why don't we pick offsets that correspond to musical notes? Why do most of us pick some arbitrary offset rounded to the nearest 50 or 100. When we talk about offsets here, we are nearly always talking about 500 or 600 or 700 or the screeching 1000 hz or higher offset that comes fixed in a lot of earlier rigs. Maybe the offset on the K1/K2 menus should be calibrated in musical notes instead of arbitrary decade increments. Eric KE6US www.ke6us.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 2:16 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] Side Tone I built K2 Nr 413 and made lots of CW contacts, the built in Mojo was great. I stopped using it because the crystal oscillator in the side tone was not a pure sine wave and it became offensive to my ear. I only use CW. I have been informed by a K2 op that the more recent versions have a better side tone. If this is so then I may consider building the K2/100. Could some one please help me with this decision? Charles ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Side Tone (Choosing the right music)
EricJ wrote: It's interesting that you should say the sidetone was offensive because it was not a pure sine wave. It is my understanding (not being a musician myself), that humans prefer tones with harmonic content. Pure sine waves sound simple and harsh to the ear. Not harsh, but boring. But anyway, the reason a pure sine wave is desirable is that it makes matching pitch with a received signal easier. Back in the day I always used neon-bulb sawtooth shaped sidetones. Digitally generated square waves are ugly. -- 73, Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Side Tone (Choosing the right music) Mostly OT
Hi Eric, Interesting thoughts. I am a professional musician and owner of a K1. I could write pages (and have, back in school) on how and why pianos are tuned the way they are -- they are giant mess, pitch-wise, for many many reasons, but through lots of compramises you end up with something that sounds good. I will say that when I originally built and set up my K1, I chose a sidetone/offset frequency of 440Hz because that is the tuning note (A) at standard US concert pitch. The K1 wasn't dead on, though, and adjustments are by 10 whole Hz, so it bothered me a bit and I chose 600Hz because it sounded good on my headphones and seemed a popular choice. :) I can't comment on the difference in received CW tone on a K1 versus K2 because I've never heard a K2. I find the sidetone on the K1 to be pretty rich, harmonically, but not bad. I'd prefer it a little less so, though, or with a different distribution of harmonics present at different levels (sounds like a good new add-on - essentially a synthesizer/eq for your K1's sidetone - how about it, guys?! ;) ). What makes one instrument sound different from another is partially the harmonic content and the amplitudes of each harmonic relative to the others. Another aspect is the start and stop of the tone (waveform shaping?). I am sure someone could design a sidetone that would sound like an instrument or some other more pleasing tone. Then they could patent it like Harley Davidson did with their sound. As far as why we have the frequencies we have on the piano (or any other western instrument), it's generally based on the A above middle C being 440Hz. The rest of the notes are based on that, mathematically. It isn't always 440Hz, though - it's a bit higher in most of Europe (442-444Hz) and has historically been all over the place - as low as maybe 380 and as high as 490. There are lots of theories as to how 440Hz became popular - could go on about that but I won't. :) Suffice it to say that instruments made of certain materials, at certain sizes, will resonate (and sound) better at certain frequencies. I think that, over time, the evolution of instruments and pitches settled in a range that works best with the material and acoustic limitations that we face. (It's still not static, though) Why the particular tones within the octave? It's a western thing - they've got way more notes in traditional Indian music and fewer in China. 73, Jason ak7v --- EricJ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With so many musicians on here, including the K1/K2 designer, maybe someone would comment on why sidetones are the frequency they are. Actually, I have been thinking more about how people choose the OFFSET they prefer more than the sidetone, but it's the same idea. It's interesting that you should say the sidetone was offensive because it was not a pure sine wave. It is my understanding (not being a musician myself), that humans prefer tones with harmonic content. Pure sine waves sound simple and harsh to the ear. Maybe we would find that even with a sidetone, there is some preferred harmonic content that makes it richer and more pleasing to listen to. The same goes for the offset frequency. I, and others, have commented on how much better the K1 sounds to us compared to even the K2. I don't know what quality the K1 has that makes us think that way, but there is something going on there that makes me choose the K1 for ragchewing. Something makes it less fatiguing or otherwise more pleasant for me, and it is independent of the speaker as I have traded external speakers back and forth bewteen the K1 and the K2. While thinking about it, and again, not being a musician, I began wondering why piano keys are tuned to the very specific, but seemingly odd frequencies they are. The lowest note on a piano is 28.5 Hz. Who decided something like that? Esp. way back 200+ years ago. All of the white keys are harmonically related to that bizarre 28 and 1/2 hz, now I know the reason for that, but why did they choose that particular frequency? I don't know the answer to that, but maybe it evolved over decades or even centuries of humans responding well to certain notes and not to others. (I should have done some basic research first, I guess). I doubt they were chosen at random and probably really do seem to be frequencies humans prefer. If that is so, why don't we pick offsets that correspond to musical notes? Why do most of us pick some arbitrary offset rounded to the nearest 50 or 100. When we talk about offsets here, we are nearly always talking about 500 or 600 or 700 or the screeching 1000 hz or higher offset that comes fixed in a lot of earlier rigs. Maybe the offset on the K1/K2 menus should be calibrated in musical notes instead of arbitrary decade increments. Eric KE6US www.ke6us.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Sent:
RE: [Elecraft] Side Tone (Choosing the right music) Mostly OT
So maybe Chinese or Indian export models should include more sidetone options. Hi. My offset is also around 600 hz. In a blind test, it sort of settled there, but I remember being undecided because the steps were too far apart. Like some other tone close by would actually have been better for me. Anyway, it is something that I have been kicking around with no background to make sense of it. Your note helps give me some direction for further research. A friend of mine has a PhD in Dance specializing in Balinese dance and she has mentioned the expanded scale of Eastern music as well. There is always a way to make a BFD out of the simplest thing...even a sidetone. Eric KE6US www.ke6us.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jason Artz Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 10:29 AM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Side Tone (Choosing the right music) Mostly OT Hi Eric, Interesting thoughts. I am a professional musician and owner of a K1. I could write pages (and have, back in school) on how and why pianos are tuned the way they are -- they are giant mess, pitch-wise, for many many reasons, but through lots of compramises you end up with something that sounds good. I will say that when I originally built and set up my K1, I chose a sidetone/offset frequency of 440Hz because that is the tuning note (A) at standard US concert pitch. The K1 wasn't dead on, though, and adjustments are by 10 whole Hz, so it bothered me a bit and I chose 600Hz because it sounded good on my headphones and seemed a popular choice. :) I can't comment on the difference in received CW tone on a K1 versus K2 because I've never heard a K2. I find the sidetone on the K1 to be pretty rich, harmonically, but not bad. I'd prefer it a little less so, though, or with a different distribution of harmonics present at different levels (sounds like a good new add-on - essentially a synthesizer/eq for your K1's sidetone - how about it, guys?! ;) ). What makes one instrument sound different from another is partially the harmonic content and the amplitudes of each harmonic relative to the others. Another aspect is the start and stop of the tone (waveform shaping?). I am sure someone could design a sidetone that would sound like an instrument or some other more pleasing tone. Then they could patent it like Harley Davidson did with their sound. As far as why we have the frequencies we have on the piano (or any other western instrument), it's generally based on the A above middle C being 440Hz. The rest of the notes are based on that, mathematically. It isn't always 440Hz, though - it's a bit higher in most of Europe (442-444Hz) and has historically been all over the place - as low as maybe 380 and as high as 490. There are lots of theories as to how 440Hz became popular - could go on about that but I won't. :) Suffice it to say that instruments made of certain materials, at certain sizes, will resonate (and sound) better at certain frequencies. I think that, over time, the evolution of instruments and pitches settled in a range that works best with the material and acoustic limitations that we face. (It's still not static, though) Why the particular tones within the octave? It's a western thing - they've got way more notes in traditional Indian music and fewer in China. 73, Jason ak7v --- EricJ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: With so many musicians on here, including the K1/K2 designer, maybe someone would comment on why sidetones are the frequency they are. Actually, I have been thinking more about how people choose the OFFSET they prefer more than the sidetone, but it's the same idea. It's interesting that you should say the sidetone was offensive because it was not a pure sine wave. It is my understanding (not being a musician myself), that humans prefer tones with harmonic content. Pure sine waves sound simple and harsh to the ear. Maybe we would find that even with a sidetone, there is some preferred harmonic content that makes it richer and more pleasing to listen to. The same goes for the offset frequency. I, and others, have commented on how much better the K1 sounds to us compared to even the K2. I don't know what quality the K1 has that makes us think that way, but there is something going on there that makes me choose the K1 for ragchewing. Something makes it less fatiguing or otherwise more pleasant for me, and it is independent of the speaker as I have traded external speakers back and forth bewteen the K1 and the K2. While thinking about it, and again, not being a musician, I began wondering why piano keys are tuned to the very specific, but seemingly odd frequencies they are. The lowest note on a piano is 28.5 Hz. Who decided something like that? Esp. way back 200+ years ago. All of the white keys are harmonically related to that bizarre 28 and 1/2 hz, now I know the reason for that, but why did
Re: [Elecraft] Side Tone (Choosing the right music)
Vic K2VCO wrote: Not harsh, but boring. But anyway, the reason a pure sine wave is desirable is that it makes matching pitch with a received signal easier. Well, and bandwidth. A pure sine wave uses, errr, almost zero bandwidth*, whereas one with harmonics needs somewhere to put those. A 500Hz sine wave at 7100kHz is really a sine at 7100.5, whereas a 500Hz sine wave with harmonics at 1000 and 1500 kHz is now using 7100.5, 7101, 7101.5... ... or am I preaching to the choir here? * Yeah, yeah, ok, not quite true as soon as you start modulating it with keying envelopes. -- Nosey Nick Waterman, G7RZQ, k2 #5209. #include stddisclaimer[EMAIL PROTECTED] It is ten o'clock; do you know where your processes are? ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] Side Tone (Choosing the right music)
Well, sidetone and the tone generated from offset is not transmitted...except into your head via the ear canal which has excess audio bandwidth when listening to CW. Eric KE6US www.ke6us.com -Original Message- From: Nick Waterman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 3:10 PM To: Vic K2VCO Cc: EricJ; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Side Tone (Choosing the right music) Vic K2VCO wrote: Not harsh, but boring. But anyway, the reason a pure sine wave is desirable is that it makes matching pitch with a received signal easier. Well, and bandwidth. A pure sine wave uses, errr, almost zero bandwidth*, whereas one with harmonics needs somewhere to put those. A 500Hz sine wave at 7100kHz is really a sine at 7100.5, whereas a 500Hz sine wave with harmonics at 1000 and 1500 kHz is now using 7100.5, 7101, 7101.5... .. or am I preaching to the choir here? * Yeah, yeah, ok, not quite true as soon as you start modulating it with keying envelopes. -- Nosey Nick Waterman, G7RZQ, k2 #5209. #include stddisclaimer[EMAIL PROTECTED] It is ten o'clock; do you know where your processes are? ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
